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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 6:14 am 
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“The (2013) tyres will be significantly different to this year, which will challenge the teams because the cars will be virtually the same, with almost no change in the regulations.

“The difference (in tyres) from 2012 to 2013, however, will have a strong effect on the aerodynamics of the cars, and so the teams will have to work hard,” the Briton is quoted by Totalrace.

He said there will also be a greater difference between the various compounds in 2013.

http://www.yallaf1.com/2012/11/09/pirel ... different/


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 6:39 am 
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As long as we see at least 2 stops, than it's ok. Since teams now understand the tyre better, it is 1 stop again and the race is boring.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 6:43 am 
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im fine with fast deg.....

just dont toy with the working range of the tyre


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 6:49 am 
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just provide Super Soft & Soft tires, and get rid the Medium & Hard tires please.......


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 7:52 am 
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NvrDieYoung wrote:
im fine with fast deg.....

just dont toy with the working range of the tyre


If I remember correctly they will widen the optimal operating window a bit.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 7:59 am 
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XploZiV wrote:
NvrDieYoung wrote:
im fine with fast deg.....

just dont toy with the working range of the tyre


If I remember correctly they will widen the optimal operating window a bit.


Which should be a good thing. The last couple of races have been kinda bitter sweet - it's good to be able to watch the drivers push hard all race and right from the word go, but the one stop is a little dull.

Tyre wear is good, unpredictability bad.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 7:59 am 
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XploZiV wrote:
NvrDieYoung wrote:
im fine with fast deg.....

just dont toy with the working range of the tyre


If I remember correctly they will widen the optimal operating window a bit.


I hope it wont be an issues at all..........


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:46 am 
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NvrDieYoung wrote:
“The difference (in tyres) from 2012 to 2013, however, will have a strong effect on the aerodynamics of the cars, and so the teams will have to work hard,” the Briton is quoted by Totalrace.


does that mean a change in dimensions? - i (at least for the moment) can't see how else tyres could have an effect on the aerodynamics of the cars ... marbles getting stuck in the front wing aside...

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:50 am 
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Oh god...

I like the tyres and tyre management to be an important part of a Grand Prix, but not a dominant part. Let's hope that's not the case in 2013.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:56 am 
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NvrDieYoung wrote:
He said there will also be a greater difference between the various compounds in 2013.



A bit confused about that, there was an article a few weeks ago where Paul Hembry supposedly said they were making the tyres softer, moving soft, Medium and hard closer to super soft again.

So how can their be greater difference if you are bringing them closer?

Edit: Looking this morning I think they will affect the aero because they will have a different shape under load.

http://www1.skysports.com/formula-1/new ... azilian-GP
Quote:
"The shapes are not dramatically different but the way the tyre will move or distort under load will be different," added Brawn.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 10:43 am 
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Didn't they say that when they took over- about being more aggressive?

It seems they have back pedalled a bit on that..

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 10:46 am 
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No matter what Pirelli do they'll not please some on here

When we were on the 7th different winner all people were crying to get the tyres to last longer, now they do and we've got a red bull consistently winning and teams not running out of tyres and not cliffs are being fallen off the same ones cry about that too!

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 10:56 am 
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Part of the problem is that Pirelli have been quite conservative in their tyre choices.

We had softs and super softs in Korea - and Red Bull were chewing their nails hoping Vettel's tyres would last until the end of the race.

What I'd love to know is what factors influence what compounds Pirelli take to a race weekend.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:10 am 
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GingerFurball wrote:
Part of the problem is that Pirelli have been quite conservative in their tyre choices.

We had softs and super softs in Korea - and Red Bull were chewing their nails hoping Vettel's tyres would last until the end of the race.

What I'd love to know is what factors influence what compounds Pirelli take to a race weekend.


Don't they look at previous years data and what the track temp is likely to be on the race weekend?

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:17 am 
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rabbit_hole wrote:
Tyre wear is good, unpredictability bad.

Quote:
I like the tyres and tyre management to be an important part of a Grand Prix, but not a dominant part.

^^These

Pirelli want to be centre-stage and the most important thing in F1. Except that they shouldn't be. Racing shouldn't be mainly about the tyres.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:23 am 
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The first year of Pirelli was fine, we had 1 to 4 stops, usually 2 to 3. This year, the tires were too chaotic at the beginning, it was a lottery, and now the tires are too predictable and durable. Much better if tires are being shredded like a couple of races in Canada in recent years, the target should be 3 stops, and give them all an extra set of option tires.

my 2 cents' worth anyway


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:34 am 
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Pirelli more aggressive, driving more conservative.

Get your lottery tickets now!


Last edited by FormulaFun on Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:35 am 
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More aggressive... As in forcing the drivers to make more pitstops at gunpoint?

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:38 am 
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Fiki wrote:
More aggressive... As in forcing the drivers to make more pitstops at gunpoint?



AngreetRoll wrote:
rabbit_hole wrote:
Tyre wear is good, unpredictability bad.

Quote:
I like the tyres and tyre management to be an important part of a Grand Prix, but not a dominant part.

^^These

Pirelli want to be centre-stage and the most important thing in F1. Except that they shouldn't be. Racing shouldn't be mainly about the tyres.



Agreed, it seems they are just trying to make F1 mainly about the Pirelli tyres.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:06 pm 
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Personally I think that widening the operating window is a great idea. I hate the fact that they favour the driving style of some drivers. Some are used to driving sedately, and some aren't. I feel as though having to be easy on the tyres is an advantage to some drivers, and to disadvantage drivers who have been used to tougher tyres that the can push like hell on for all of their career, I feel, is unfair. People will come out with the whole 'it's what separates the good drivers from the average drivers', but no, I don't think that's fair. It's called.. that's what separates the drivers who drive smoothly to those who drive aggressively. Someone who drives aggressively should not be penalised. They deserve just as much champagne as anyone else.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:20 pm 
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Misinformed wrote:
Personally I think that widening the operating window is a great idea. I hate the fact that they favour the driving style of some drivers. Some are used to driving sedately, and some aren't. I feel as though having to be easy on the tyres is an advantage to some drivers, and to disadvantage drivers who have been used to tougher tyres that the can push like hell on for all of their career, I feel, is unfair. People will come out with the whole 'it's what separates the good drivers from the average drivers', but no, I don't think that's fair. It's called.. that's what separates the drivers who drive smoothly to those who drive aggressively. Someone who drives aggressively should not be penalised. They deserve just as much champagne as anyone else.


:thumbup:

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:01 pm 
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fieldstvl wrote:
Oh god...

I like the tyres and tyre management to be an important part of a Grand Prix, but not a dominant part. Let's hope that's not the case in 2013.


I agree.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 1:58 am 
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Misinformed wrote:
Personally I think that widening the operating window is a great idea. I hate the fact that they favour the driving style of some drivers. Some are used to driving sedately, and some aren't. I feel as though having to be easy on the tyres is an advantage to some drivers, and to disadvantage drivers who have been used to tougher tyres that the can push like hell on for all of their career, I feel, is unfair. People will come out with the whole 'it's what separates the good drivers from the average drivers', but no, I don't think that's fair. It's called.. that's what separates the drivers who drive smoothly to those who drive aggressively. Someone who drives aggressively should not be penalised. They deserve just as much champagne as anyone else.

Do they though? Who did they favour?

People say Button but Hamilton was beating him during the tyre furore. Others say Vettel but Webber was beating him. Perez has been mentioned as someone who could make the Pirelli's work yet Kobayashi has stuck with him pretty easily.

I don't think the tyres favoured any driver but they did help deliver one of the greatest seasons in recent memory.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 2:17 am 
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also they need to improve the batch to batch consistency of the tyre. Many similar issues happened to other drivers when one set of tyre not working as well as the srubb set.

And the tyre is very vulnerable to slight contact which results in puncture.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 4:11 am 
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Formula1Fan. wrote:
Misinformed wrote:
Personally I think that widening the operating window is a great idea. I hate the fact that they favour the driving style of some drivers. Some are used to driving sedately, and some aren't. I feel as though having to be easy on the tyres is an advantage to some drivers, and to disadvantage drivers who have been used to tougher tyres that the can push like hell on for all of their career, I feel, is unfair. People will come out with the whole 'it's what separates the good drivers from the average drivers', but no, I don't think that's fair. It's called.. that's what separates the drivers who drive smoothly to those who drive aggressively. Someone who drives aggressively should not be penalised. They deserve just as much champagne as anyone else.

Do they though? Who did they favour?

People say Button but Hamilton was beating him during the tyre furore. Others say Vettel but Webber was beating him. Perez has been mentioned as someone who could make the Pirelli's work yet Kobayashi has stuck with him pretty easily.

I don't think the tyres favoured any driver but they did help deliver one of the greatest seasons in recent memory.


A Formula One car is comprised of a lot more than just four tyres. They have a major say in the grand scheme of things, but a car needs a package. Jenson beat Lewis last year, with Lewis not labeling the car as the reason for his bad season. They're tooth and nail this year (retirements aside), and Jenson's publically said that the car this year doesn't suit him.
In terms of Mark and Sebastian, Mark was ahead of Vettel at the beginning of the year, and then when they stabilised the rear end, Vettel could capitalise again.

The tyres require a specific method of driving, but to take advantage of that, you need the key, which is the car.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 4:24 am 
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Pirelli is just not as technically proficient a tyre manufacturer as Bridgestone. It appears to me they are constantly tinkering with their construction formula, reacting to mistakes they've made in temperature working rage (2012) excessive wear (winter testing 2011) etc...I'm sure there'll be major issues next year.
I mean christ, the tyres will react differently under aero load, thats a potential danger for the cars.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 6:26 pm 
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Misinformed wrote:
Personally I think that widening the operating window is a great idea. I hate the fact that they favour the driving style of some drivers. Some are used to driving sedately, and some aren't. I feel as though having to be easy on the tyres is an advantage to some drivers, and to disadvantage drivers who have been used to tougher tyres that the can push like hell on for all of their career, I feel, is unfair. People will come out with the whole 'it's what separates the good drivers from the average drivers', but no, I don't think that's fair. It's called.. that's what separates the drivers who drive smoothly to those who drive aggressively. Someone who drives aggressively should not be penalised. They deserve just as much champagne as anyone else.


Fair has nothing to do with it. Driving in F1 is a privilege, not a a right. Either you adapt and excel, or get left behind.

The best drivers will win with whatever regulations are imposed upon them; moaning that is "unfair" is absurd when it is the same for everyone. The cream rises to the top.

I can't imagine Fernando Alonso saying he would have won the title if the tire situation wasn't so "unfair". lol.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:21 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
More aggressive... As in forcing the drivers to make more pitstops at gunpoint?

Not this tyre nursing , creeping around fairy cakes again :uhoh: :uhoh:

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:24 pm 
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Misinformed wrote:
Formula1Fan. wrote:
Misinformed wrote:
Personally I think that widening the operating window is a great idea. I hate the fact that they favour the driving style of some drivers. Some are used to driving sedately, and some aren't. I feel as though having to be easy on the tyres is an advantage to some drivers, and to disadvantage drivers who have been used to tougher tyres that the can push like hell on for all of their career, I feel, is unfair. People will come out with the whole 'it's what separates the good drivers from the average drivers', but no, I don't think that's fair. It's called.. that's what separates the drivers who drive smoothly to those who drive aggressively. Someone who drives aggressively should not be penalised. They deserve just as much champagne as anyone else.

Do they though? Who did they favour?

People say Button but Hamilton was beating him during the tyre furore. Others say Vettel but Webber was beating him. Perez has been mentioned as someone who could make the Pirelli's work yet Kobayashi has stuck with him pretty easily.

I don't think the tyres favoured any driver but they did help deliver one of the greatest seasons in recent memory.


A Formula One car is comprised of a lot more than just four tyres. They have a major say in the grand scheme of things, but a car needs a package. Jenson beat Lewis last year, with Lewis not labeling the car as the reason for his bad season. They're tooth and nail this year (retirements aside), and Jenson's publically said that the car this year doesn't suit him.
In terms of Mark and Sebastian, Mark was ahead of Vettel at the beginning of the year, and then when they stabilised the rear end, Vettel could capitalise again.

The tyres require a specific method of driving, but to take advantage of that, you need the key, which is the car.

Tooth & nail this year ? Absolutely not!

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:42 pm 
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How 'agressive' should the tyres be? Take Kimi as an example. There's 'agressive' taken from China 2012 where the tyres said we've had enough, you are now going backwards - compared to 'agressive' from Germany (European GP) 2005 where the tyres said we've had enough, one of us is bailing out...

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 10:34 pm 
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The tyres should just be programmed to fall apart after so many laps no matter how much care you take, get people driving on the limit again


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 11:01 pm 
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Cold Gin wrote:
Misinformed wrote:
Personally I think that widening the operating window is a great idea. I hate the fact that they favour the driving style of some drivers. Some are used to driving sedately, and some aren't. I feel as though having to be easy on the tyres is an advantage to some drivers, and to disadvantage drivers who have been used to tougher tyres that the can push like hell on for all of their career, I feel, is unfair. People will come out with the whole 'it's what separates the good drivers from the average drivers', but no, I don't think that's fair. It's called.. that's what separates the drivers who drive smoothly to those who drive aggressively. Someone who drives aggressively should not be penalised. They deserve just as much champagne as anyone else.


Fair has nothing to do with it. Driving in F1 is a privilege, not a a right. Either you adapt and excel, or get left behind.

The best drivers will win with whatever regulations are imposed upon them; moaning that is "unfair" is absurd when it is the same for everyone. The cream rises to the top.

I can't imagine Fernando Alonso saying he would have won the title if the tire situation wasn't so "unfair". lol.

You should look more into connotations than denotations as they're more often used on forums. If you'll read the entirety of my post as opposed to the one word you're having a right old gripe about, you'll see that I used the word unfair as a way of describing the fact that tyres are made that specifically suit a particular driving style. If you can tell me that that is not a disdvantage to those that are used to pushing hard on tyres for the most part of their career, then I might side with you. And also, I'll be the last person that tries to argue that being in F1 is a privilege and not a right.

Sabrina wrote:
Misinformed wrote:
Formula1Fan. wrote:
Misinformed wrote:
Personally I think that widening the operating window is a great idea. I hate the fact that they favour the driving style of some drivers. Some are used to driving sedately, and some aren't. I feel as though having to be easy on the tyres is an advantage to some drivers, and to disadvantage drivers who have been used to tougher tyres that the can push like hell on for all of their career, I feel, is unfair. People will come out with the whole 'it's what separates the good drivers from the average drivers', but no, I don't think that's fair. It's called.. that's what separates the drivers who drive smoothly to those who drive aggressively. Someone who drives aggressively should not be penalised. They deserve just as much champagne as anyone else.

Do they though? Who did they favour?

People say Button but Hamilton was beating him during the tyre furore. Others say Vettel but Webber was beating him. Perez has been mentioned as someone who could make the Pirelli's work yet Kobayashi has stuck with him pretty easily.

I don't think the tyres favoured any driver but they did help deliver one of the greatest seasons in recent memory.


A Formula One car is comprised of a lot more than just four tyres. They have a major say in the grand scheme of things, but a car needs a package. Jenson beat Lewis last year, with Lewis not labeling the car as the reason for his bad season. They're tooth and nail this year (retirements aside), and Jenson's publically said that the car this year doesn't suit him.
In terms of Mark and Sebastian, Mark was ahead of Vettel at the beginning of the year, and then when they stabilised the rear end, Vettel could capitalise again.

The tyres require a specific method of driving, but to take advantage of that, you need the key, which is the car.

Tooth & nail this year ? Absolutely not!

Hold your horses. I should have clarified. I'm talking about points, seeing as that at the end of the day, that's what counts. I know that in terms of overall performance Lewis has got Jenson's number, hence why I said 'retirements aside.'

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:23 pm 
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My problem with the tyres isn't with some drivers wearing them out faster than others. It's about the drivers needing to "switch on" the tyres. This, more than anything else, is what favours one driving style above another. If a driver cannot keep tyres temperatures within a specific window, the performance drops off, and this causes a downward spiral in performance - you perform worse, you lose heat, you go slower, you lose even more heat and so on. I would like to see tyres than have a larger operating windows temperature wise, and are less sensitive to the driving style of the pilot.

I do not mind physical degradation so much, but I think thermal degradation should just go.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:01 pm 
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mkone wrote:
My problem with the tyres isn't with some drivers wearing them out faster than others. It's about the drivers needing to "switch on" the tyres. This, more than anything else, is what favours one driving style above another. If a driver cannot keep tyres temperatures within a specific window, the performance drops off, and this causes a downward spiral in performance - you perform worse, you lose heat, you go slower, you lose even more heat and so on. I would like to see tyres than have a larger operating windows temperature wise, and are less sensitive to the driving style of the pilot.


it's amazing how driving at over 200 mph with cornering G's going up to 5 or so...one still can't keep enough heat in the tyres. :uhoh:


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:10 pm 
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G1n wrote:
mkone wrote:
My problem with the tyres isn't with some drivers wearing them out faster than others. It's about the drivers needing to "switch on" the tyres. This, more than anything else, is what favours one driving style above another. If a driver cannot keep tyres temperatures within a specific window, the performance drops off, and this causes a downward spiral in performance - you perform worse, you lose heat, you go slower, you lose even more heat and so on. I would like to see tyres than have a larger operating windows temperature wise, and are less sensitive to the driving style of the pilot.


it's amazing how driving at over 200 mph with cornering G's going up to 5 or so...one still can't keep enough heat in the tyres. :uhoh:



Such is the rubber and construction these days.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:29 pm 
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Unless the sidewalls of the tires become gooey soft, I don't see how they would affect aero in any way shape or form. Perhaps they mean the diameter will change compared to this year? I dunno, but to say the tires will affect Aero is more than a bit of a stretch in my mind. There are physics consider and the "under aero load" comment smells of malarky. Physics in this particular case state that when a tire is rotating at speeds the outer wall is being pushed outward with extreme force. The faster the rotation, the greater the force. Knowing this, are we to assume they'r making the side walls less rigid so that the cars feel more sloshy/clumsy in the slower sections and more agile in the faster stuff. If so, this will be a facepalm of epic proportions and the FIA should step in and tell Pirelli to create a quality tire and let the teams and drivers separate the men from the boys, the way it should be. F1 is a team sport where every participating team must design and build their own car to the best of the regulations and see who comes out on top. Tires will undoubtedly be a factor in ultimate performance but it should not be the achilles heel of a car, team, driver or their collective efforts. Some folks say it adds to the spectacle but really, what is it that it adds? Unpredictability? We already have more than enough of that in the way of car failure, accidents, botched pit stops, driver errors, poor/good starts, great drivers never giving up, and many, MANY more variables that are far more valid than to purposely introduce an element specifically designed to fail. This results in the teams doing just good enough according to the limits of such a component rather than the limits of the performance of the overall package of team, car and driver. Instead of putting so much into the tires, why not change the limiting component to engine or gear boxes? Stay within a specific range and you can hope to finish the race, do so better than anyone else and you will win! If you think this sounds dumb, it's actually the same thing... Or is it?

If you think about how difficult and dangerous the current tires have made it for drivers to learn the lost art of the outside pass, why not place the limiting factor within the drivetrain components and re-introduce excellent tires so drivers can feel confident in the tires to allow them to attempt/make more passes? Wouldn't that add to "the show"?

No matter how anyone tries to convince me that Pirelli have added to the mix to make a better show, I'm not buying it because I KNOW and have seen better. If what you want is to see "a show", go to a play or a concert... Not a race.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:44 pm 
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Incubus, Look at the incar and how much deflection there is in the current tyres. I'm guessing how the sidewall flexs has an effect on the airflow around the tyre.

Not sure of how to word the technicalities but around the tyres the air flow gets a bit mental due to the air over the tyre from the car going forward and then other flow from the rotation of the tyre it's self.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:48 pm 
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The last few races the tyres have been fine, why change again?
Tyres should not be the main concern in a race.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:59 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
Incubus, Look at the incar and how much deflection there is in the current tyres. I'm guessing how the sidewall flexs has an effect on the airflow around the tyre.

Not sure of how to word the technicalities but around the tyres the air flow gets a bit mental due to the air over the tyre from the car going forward and then other flow from the rotation of the tyre it's self.

Oh I know but the blockiness of the tire itself disrupts air much more with greater force and mass with the added encouragement of the front wing so in effect, most of the air coming around the side wall is pulled into the stream of air and the side pods and floors catch whatever mass they are designed to in order to maximize Aero efficiency and downforce. Another thing Pirelli can do is add purposely texture to the side wall to disrupt air flow even further but again... no need whatsoever and they should just build a quality tire that is more durable and less prone to rub-off and chunking to allow the drivers to run at maximum without sacrificing anything.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:09 pm 
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NvrDieYoung wrote:
also they need to improve the batch to batch consistency of the tyre.

There is only so much you can do when the main ingredient of your product is tree sap.


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