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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 3:12 pm 
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Jake Humphrey just tweeted with a pic to say that they have put tarmac on the outside of turn 1. So yet another corner where there is no penalty for getting it wrong. Getting a bit sick of it now.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 3:13 pm 
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Thats tragic :thumbdown:

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 3:23 pm 
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Devestating. Why must they keep doing this? That was one of the best places to punish drivers for getting it wrong.

We're going to end up with the Abu Dhabi recklessness again aren't we?

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 3:33 pm 
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Ruined it, yet again, well done F1.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 3:37 pm 
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:thumbdown:

Where is this going?

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 3:45 pm 
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They might as well just stick the cars on rails these days.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 3:49 pm 
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looks terrible and I bet we will see many going wide at turn 1 now. Probably to return to the track and take a few other out too.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 3:49 pm 
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Terrible idea...


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:03 pm 
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Jeez, it's not the end of the world!

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:06 pm 
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Pedrosa_4_Ever wrote:
Jeez, it's not the end of the world!

Hence why we are not at this very moment rushing to buy supplies & guns to defend ourselves against impending doom. We are merely suggesting that it would be better if the bastardization of these circuits was not carried out. It also wouldn't be the end of the world if they introduced a mandatory 60mph speed limit at all tracks but it would certainly affect the spectacle.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:08 pm 
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Turn 1, which part??? all of that or just part??? As int he past decade turn 1 has been getting more tarmacked more and more over the due to the entry speed.

If only the first 50% is no big deal..... but anymore just makes the corner pointless


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:11 pm 
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Saorsa wrote:
Turn 1, which part??? all of that or just part??? As int he past decade turn 1 has been getting more tarmacked more and more over the due to the entry speed.

If only the first 50% is no big deal..... but anymore just makes the corner pointless

Image

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:41 pm 
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sighs

Was watching a video of Pouhon today with gravel & cars spinning etc, I Miss this having grown with it

Safety isn't the issue it's FOM trying to let as many cars finish as possible. WHY That's how we decide who's best as it used to be part of the challenge not a get out clause

I mean Austin virtually is an expanse of tarmac with a lick of paint

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:48 pm 
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Ruined the whole aspect and part of that complex. If you run a bit wide its game over or at least some hefty damage or lost positions, now you run wide and you get away with it, scott free.

Another part of a track completely ruined.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:50 pm 
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Rocket_Red wrote:
sighs

Was watching a video of Pouhon today with gravel & cars spinning etc, I Miss this having grown with it

Safety isn't the issue it's FOM trying to let as many cars finish as possible. WHY That's how we decide who's best as it used to be part of the challenge not a get out clause

I mean Austin virtually is an expanse of tarmac with a lick of paint


Simple... Cars have lots of sponsors on them...sponsors don't like pouring money into a sport to see their cars in the gravel.

F1 used to be a sport, now it's a money making exercise with a bit of sport thrown in for good measure.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 6:45 pm 
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I seem to remember Brazil being under a bit of pressure to improve safety as there has been a couple of deaths in the last few years in a racing series (can't remember which one). Maybe this is part of that process.

But either way turn 1 was never that dangerous anyways. RUINED!


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 7:56 pm 
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The run from Juncao to the finish line was the unsafe part... The Senna S was amazing and unforgiving! This is heresy :cry:

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 8:00 pm 
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To be fair it is probably safer. If a car lost it there before regaining control on grass, more often than not damp grass from overnight/early morning showers, was hard and the chances of a car just slewing down the hill into the path of other cars was high. With tarmac the drivers have a much higher chance of regaining control much earlier.

It could make drainage at that corner easier to control as well actually if they've cut grooves in it somewhere. Once the grass was saturated that was it.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 8:59 pm 
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Rocket_Red wrote:
sighs

Was watching a video of Pouhon today with gravel & cars spinning etc, I Miss this having grown with it

Safety isn't the issue it's FOM trying to let as many cars finish as possible. WHY That's how we decide who's best as it used to be part of the challenge not a get out clause

I mean Austin virtually is an expanse of tarmac with a lick of paint


In a corner like Pouhon tarmac runoff doesn't actually hurt all that much because if you run wide there you're gonna lose a big chunk of time anyway. But at T1 in Interlagos you can cut the whole chicane. Even if you don't gain time you won't lose much. Its one of the worst places I could think of to put tarmac. That's why it hurts extra bad.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:08 pm 
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Pedrosa_4_Ever wrote:
Jeez, it's not the end of the world!


+1 :thumbup:

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:13 pm 
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Changes were inevitable. There were many fatal accidents in recent years. Keep in mind that this track is used by many different racing series, not just F1.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:21 pm 
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Im sorry but this is a good move, you do not want a car losing control over some grass and coming back across the track, think of the design of that corner, it would easily happen.

Do not forget that Brazil has had to try and make the track safer after some fatalities!


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:00 pm 
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Chill out people, one corner won't break a race.... unless there is a history of drivers running wide in that corner in brazil and into the gravel.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:11 pm 
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PzR Slim wrote:
Pedrosa_4_Ever wrote:
Jeez, it's not the end of the world!

Hence why we are not at this very moment rushing to buy supplies & guns to defend ourselves against impending doom. We are merely suggesting that it would be better if the bastardization of these circuits was not carried out. It also wouldn't be the end of the world if they introduced a mandatory 60mph speed limit at all tracks but it would certainly affect the spectacle.

You're getting into hyperbole a bit now :-P ... Yeah the change isn't brilliant but unless people are cutting across it all weekend then, personally, I probably won't notice/care.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:12 pm 
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callMEcrazy wrote:
Rocket_Red wrote:
sighs

Was watching a video of Pouhon today with gravel & cars spinning etc, I Miss this having grown with it

Safety isn't the issue it's FOM trying to let as many cars finish as possible. WHY That's how we decide who's best as it used to be part of the challenge not a get out clause

I mean Austin virtually is an expanse of tarmac with a lick of paint


In a corner like Pouhon tarmac runoff doesn't actually hurt all that much because if you run wide there you're gonna lose a big chunk of time anyway. But at T1 in Interlagos you can cut the whole chicane. Even if you don't gain time you won't lose much. Its one of the worst places I could think of to put tarmac. That's why it hurts extra bad.


I don't want them to lose time - I'd rather they retired tbh as they should get it as a proper punishment.
Makes it harder to be the best imo

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 6:48 am 
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callMEcrazy wrote:
Rocket_Red wrote:
sighs

Was watching a video of Pouhon today with gravel & cars spinning etc, I Miss this having grown with it

Safety isn't the issue it's FOM trying to let as many cars finish as possible. WHY That's how we decide who's best as it used to be part of the challenge not a get out clause

I mean Austin virtually is an expanse of tarmac with a lick of paint


In a corner like Pouhon tarmac runoff doesn't actually hurt all that much because if you run wide there you're gonna lose a big chunk of time anyway. But at T1 in Interlagos you can cut the whole chicane. Even if you don't gain time you won't lose much. Its one of the worst places I could think of to put tarmac. That's why it hurts extra bad.


that's the difference isn't it? you just lose time instead of having a dnf by being beached in the gravel.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 7:49 am 
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F1 is getting more & more treat

might as well legalize off track overtaking


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 8:31 am 
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This was on the card. That corner was exciting, unforgiving but very dangerous as well. Specially with this year's F1 cars which do not have as much back end grip and lot of other categories where that corner was going to be a huge problem.
I know it sucks, but that was a major incident waiting to happen. Small part of me is sad. It didnt happen till now is just matter of chance and luck. I wont lose sleep over this.
Its not about sport becoming more treat, its about lives. Those are priceless.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 8:40 am 
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Rocket_Red wrote:
callMEcrazy wrote:
Rocket_Red wrote:
sighs

Was watching a video of Pouhon today with gravel & cars spinning etc, I Miss this having grown with it

Safety isn't the issue it's FOM trying to let as many cars finish as possible. WHY That's how we decide who's best as it used to be part of the challenge not a get out clause

I mean Austin virtually is an expanse of tarmac with a lick of paint


In a corner like Pouhon tarmac runoff doesn't actually hurt all that much because if you run wide there you're gonna lose a big chunk of time anyway. But at T1 in Interlagos you can cut the whole chicane. Even if you don't gain time you won't lose much. Its one of the worst places I could think of to put tarmac. That's why it hurts extra bad.


I don't want them to lose time - I'd rather they retired tbh as they should get it as a proper punishment.
Makes it harder to be the best imo

Monza 1999. Mika Häkkinen drops down one gear too much, locks his backwheels, spins, gets stuck and retires.
Shanghai 2007. Lewis Hamilton basically loses world championship because of one small mistake in wrong place.
etc...
That's the drama I miss.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:57 am 
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So then we'll probably see more of these?


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 10:19 am 
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I dont agree with the idea that FOM want more cars to finish the race from a sponsorship point of view.

Im sure a team would get more exposure if their car crashes out of a race. Just thinking from a news perspective, when ever i see the 30 second F1 report on the news the next night, you will see all the crashes and whoever crosses the line first.

I think they have said it before that the reason why they do asphalt run off is because F1 brakes can slow the cars faster than gravel.

The simple way to stop the asphalt being a 'get out of jail free card' is to have penalties for using the run off multiple times. be that a drive through, or give up your position to a guy behind if he's within 2 seconds. T1 at monza has a good deterrent for using the run off, a slow slalom of traffic cones.

Perhaps the rule could be if you use the asphalt run off you need to come to a complete stop before recommencing, as long as its safe to do so. An example of where it would be unsafe to do so is T8 at Turkey. What a driver could do is then do the stop go at the next corner which is a slow chicane.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 10:36 am 
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Rocket_Red wrote:
callMEcrazy wrote:
Rocket_Red wrote:
sighs

Was watching a video of Pouhon today with gravel & cars spinning etc, I Miss this having grown with it

Safety isn't the issue it's FOM trying to let as many cars finish as possible. WHY That's how we decide who's best as it used to be part of the challenge not a get out clause

I mean Austin virtually is an expanse of tarmac with a lick of paint


In a corner like Pouhon tarmac runoff doesn't actually hurt all that much because if you run wide there you're gonna lose a big chunk of time anyway. But at T1 in Interlagos you can cut the whole chicane. Even if you don't gain time you won't lose much. Its one of the worst places I could think of to put tarmac. That's why it hurts extra bad.


I don't want them to lose time - I'd rather they retired tbh as they should get it as a proper punishment.
Makes it harder to be the best imo

Think a bit before posting. It's not just F1 there.

http://en.espnf1.com/brazil/motorsport/story/46733.html

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 6:19 pm 
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I don't know why this surprises people. The FIA have determined that tarmac run off is far safer than gravel and grass. Safety supersedes punishing the drivers.

I don't like it much either, but there is absolutely no argument against it. Fast corners area always going to have tarmac on the outside, and corners from which the cars enter from high speeds are always going to have them--like T1 in Interlagos.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 6:57 pm 
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bastards! why on earth would they ruin it now?!


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 8:11 am 
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1) Trulli was lucky for his horrible accident at British 2004 when his car flipped after went off track at gravel trap.
2) Heidfeld nearly lost his hand at USA 2006 after flipping his car.
3) Kubica at Canada 2007, also almost had his head collected from the ground after his car flipped.

All these accidents occured because of the gravel trap.

Let us imagine for awhile what would've happen to Webber at Valencia 2010 if there's no tarmac run off area after crashing at high speed + flying?

Don't always think that the gravel trap is only good for punishing the driving error, but rather think about the consequences that would occur if accident happens there. IMO crashing into the the tyre wall is much better than what could've happen as stated.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 2:54 pm 
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I don't disagree with your sentiments, but to be fair, gravel had nothing to do with Kubica's accident. He hit another car and then went straight into the wall that should not have been there, at least at that angle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcT-2yx0 ... re=related

I think Hekki Kovalainen's crash in Barcelona in 2009 is a good indication why gravel shouldn't be used on the outside of fast corners---it simply does nothing to slow down the cars at racing speed. Of course, in this example, the stands and tire barriers are pretty close too--so had they been farther back it might not have been an issue. Of course, you can't have the fans a mile from the track either.

I think the best compromise should be a super, SUPER abrasive surface that would offer some sort of punishment if drivers go off. There doesn't seem to be much of a calling for that, though. Think of the red zones at Piaul Ricard---those should be standard at all FIA tracks where they need asphalt run off.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 3:01 pm 
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Cold Gin wrote:
I don't disagree with your sentiments, but to be fair, gravel had nothing to do with Kubica's accident. He hit another car and then went straight into the wall that should not have been there, at least at that angle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcT-2yx0 ... re=related

I think Hekki Kovalainen's crash in Barcelona in 2009 is a good indication why gravel shouldn't be used on the outside of fast corners---it simply does nothing to slow down the cars at racing speed. Of course, in this example, the stands and tire barriers are pretty close too--so had they been farther back it might not have been an issue. Of course, you can't have the fans a mile from the track either.

I think the best compromise should be a super, SUPER abrasive surface that would offer some sort of punishment if drivers go off. There doesn't seem to be much of a calling for that, though. Think of the red zones at Piaul Ricard---those should be standard at all FIA tracks where they need asphalt run off.


Yeah, agreed.

Nothing wrong with gravel at slow corners - see Perez's retirement at Suzuka this season.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 3:08 pm 
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Ja'a wrote:
3) Kubica at Canada 2007, also almost had his head collected from the ground after his car flipped.


I think that cars are designed that your head won't touch the ground. He sprained his ankle but that's not a big deal and quite unavoidable because there must be space to move your feet. Concussion could have been caused by those massive G's when he hit the barrier. I think the crash looked much worse than it actually was. I mean, cockpit area was in perfect shape. I have a great trust in modern F1 cars.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 5:23 pm 
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Cold Gin wrote:
I don't disagree with your sentiments, but to be fair, gravel had nothing to do with Kubica's accident. He hit another car and then went straight into the wall that should not have been there, at least at that angle.


His car flipped when it touch the gravel, after the crash on the wall. If there's tarmac, the edge of the car will not not stuck on the ground and probably will never flip.

KingOfSpa wrote:
Ja'a wrote:
3) Kubica at Canada 2007, also almost had his head collected from the ground after his car flipped.


I think that cars are designed that your head won't touch the ground.


Yes, and Webber's accident at Valencia proved that your head will not touch the ground, ON THE TARMAC!

But u should know that the surface of gravel changes when a direct hit is applied on it. If the force on Kubica's car were much greater, the more part of the car's upper area will penetrate the ground and he could already lose his head. Remember Pedro Diniz at Nurburgring 2000? His car flipped and he was lucky only to have a sprained neck.

KingOfSpa wrote:
I mean, cockpit area was in perfect shape. I have a great trust in modern F1 cars.


So far, we can say that it is indeed safe. But things could just go wrong.

Cold Gin wrote:
I think Hekki Kovalainen's crash in Barcelona in 2009 is a good indication why gravel shouldn't be used on the outside of fast corners---it simply does nothing to slow down the cars at racing speed. Of course, in this example, the stands and tire barriers are pretty close too--so had they been farther back it might not have been an issue. Of course, you can't have the fans a mile from the track either.

I think the best compromise should be a super, SUPER abrasive surface that would offer some sort of punishment if drivers go off. There doesn't seem to be much of a calling for that, though. Think of the red zones at Piaul Ricard---those should be standard at all FIA tracks where they need asphalt run off.


Sticky glue tarmac run off maybe? :smug:


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 6:49 pm 
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KingOfSpa wrote:
Ja'a wrote:
3) Kubica at Canada 2007, also almost had his head collected from the ground after his car flipped.


I think that cars are designed that your head won't touch the ground. He sprained his ankle but that's not a big deal and quite unavoidable because there must be space to move your feet. Concussion could have been caused by those massive G's when he hit the barrier. I think the crash looked much worse than it actually was. I mean, cockpit area was in perfect shape. I have a great trust in modern F1 cars.

His leg was visible after crash. He was still very lucky.

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