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 Post subject: Engine Situation
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 12:10 am 
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Does anyone know the current engine situation?

I think Ferrari were in the best state last time I read about it but is it likely to be a factor at all?

Edit: I'm referring to the limit of 8 engines on the season. I think Ferrari have the freshest engines with RB slightly less and Mclaren the oldest


Last edited by SamH_123 on Sun Nov 11, 2012 12:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Engine Situation
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 12:25 am 
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Renault is good on consumption, so they are running 10kgs lighter than everybody else at the start of the race. Which equates to a lot of lap time. It might be the case the Ferrari is fuel efficient too and would help explain why there race pace is so much better than qualifying.

Mercedes I believe was considered the most powerful last year and I believe that holds and still edges for best around powerplant.

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 Post subject: Re: Engine Situation
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 12:30 am 
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My post was kind of vague sorry, I was interested to know if people thought that the limit of 8 engines would have any effect on the WDC this year


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 Post subject: Re: Engine Situation
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 12:36 am 
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here take a look...

http://www.vivaf1.com/reliability.php


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 Post subject: Re: Engine Situation
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 12:37 am 
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From the title contenders point of view its not that much of an issue. But RedBull and Vettel have to pray they do not hit reliability issues. But as far as number of engines left, it is a not a big issue for either of the top runners.
Alonso does have 2 engines (one with almost no running, other with little compared to others ) with very little mileage on them which in theory can mean they can really crank up the engine in the 2 remaining races. How much of an advantage that will be is something only they will know. It will be very minute advantage as these engines these days lose less than 5HP in their life cycle.


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 Post subject: Re: Engine Situation
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 7:19 am 
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Interesting that alonso has got almost a fresh engine for interlagos thanks to that crash at spa.That could be a big advantage because there is usually a bit of power loss due to the high altitude.
Vettel is also a bit out of sync with the other renault guys.I am surprised they chose not to use a 9 th engine at abu dhabi.


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 Post subject: Re: Engine Situation
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 7:38 am 
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It's not a game changer. I wouldn't be surprised if RBR is more worried about an alternator failure than an engine giving out.


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 Post subject: Re: Engine Situation
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 8:04 am 
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sandyf1 wrote:
Interesting that alonso has got almost a fresh engine for interlagos thanks to that crash at spa.That could be a big advantage because there is usually a bit of power loss due to the high altitude.
Vettel is also a bit out of sync with the other renault guys.I am surprised they chose not to use a 9 th engine at abu dhabi.


It could be because they had given up on a good result at Abu Dhabi after Vettel's penalty and decided that it was not worth the risk of wasting a fresh engine. In other words, they wanted the best possible choice for the remaming 2 races. To that end, Vettel's fightback and podium finish would be a bonus in the WDC race.

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 Post subject: Re: Engine Situation
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 8:53 am 
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Zekenwolf wrote:
sandyf1 wrote:
Interesting that alonso has got almost a fresh engine for interlagos thanks to that crash at spa.That could be a big advantage because there is usually a bit of power loss due to the high altitude.
Vettel is also a bit out of sync with the other renault guys.I am surprised they chose not to use a 9 th engine at abu dhabi.


It could be because they had given up on a good result at Abu Dhabi after Vettel's penalty and decided that it was not worth the risk of wasting a fresh engine. In other words, they wanted the best possible choice for the remaming 2 races. To that end, Vettel's fightback and podium finish would be a bonus in the WDC race.

There is no wasting of engine.Vettel now has to race the same engine in U.S.A that he has used in India and Abu Dhabi . Instead he could have changed it in Abu Dhabi and had a fresher engine for the next race and also more options for brazil.Keep in mind that once an engine is used they have to use it continously.Only in the final race can they go back to a previous engine.


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 Post subject: Re: Engine Situation
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:40 am 
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sandyf1 wrote:
Zekenwolf wrote:
sandyf1 wrote:
Interesting that alonso has got almost a fresh engine for interlagos thanks to that crash at spa.That could be a big advantage because there is usually a bit of power loss due to the high altitude.
Vettel is also a bit out of sync with the other renault guys.I am surprised they chose not to use a 9 th engine at abu dhabi.


It could be because they had given up on a good result at Abu Dhabi after Vettel's penalty and decided that it was not worth the risk of wasting a fresh engine. In other words, they wanted the best possible choice for the remaming 2 races. To that end, Vettel's fightback and podium finish would be a bonus in the WDC race.

There is no wasting of engine.Vettel now has to race the same engine in U.S.A that he has used in India and Abu Dhabi . Instead he could have changed it in Abu Dhabi and had a fresher engine for the next race and also more options for brazil.Keep in mind that once an engine is used they have to use it continously.Only in the final race can they go back to a previous engine.


I did not know that. I thought that each driver was obliged to use an engine in at least 2 races and that was it.

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 Post subject: Re: Engine Situation
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 11:01 am 
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Zekenwolf wrote:
sandyf1 wrote:
Zekenwolf wrote:
sandyf1 wrote:
Interesting that alonso has got almost a fresh engine for interlagos thanks to that crash at spa.That could be a big advantage because there is usually a bit of power loss due to the high altitude.
Vettel is also a bit out of sync with the other renault guys.I am surprised they chose not to use a 9 th engine at abu dhabi.


It could be because they had given up on a good result at Abu Dhabi after Vettel's penalty and decided that it was not worth the risk of wasting a fresh engine. In other words, they wanted the best possible choice for the remaming 2 races. To that end, Vettel's fightback and podium finish would be a bonus in the WDC race.

There is no wasting of engine.Vettel now has to race the same engine in U.S.A that he has used in India and Abu Dhabi . Instead he could have changed it in Abu Dhabi and had a fresher engine for the next race and also more options for brazil.Keep in mind that once an engine is used they have to use it continously.Only in the final race can they go back to a previous engine.


I did not know that. I thought that each driver was obliged to use an engine in at least 2 races and that was it.

i think they can use the 8 engines in any combination / order of races, not that an engine has to do at least **
they could put a new one in at a race, then the next event, use another new one or change for an old one etcc..


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 Post subject: Re: Engine Situation
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 11:11 am 
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Thanks for that. Based on that information, do we know the most races any of the leading teams have effectively used an engine in this season?

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 Post subject: Re: Engine Situation
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 11:13 am 
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sandyf1 wrote:
Zekenwolf wrote:
sandyf1 wrote:
Interesting that alonso has got almost a fresh engine for interlagos thanks to that crash at spa.That could be a big advantage because there is usually a bit of power loss due to the high altitude.
Vettel is also a bit out of sync with the other renault guys.I am surprised they chose not to use a 9 th engine at abu dhabi.


It could be because they had given up on a good result at Abu Dhabi after Vettel's penalty and decided that it was not worth the risk of wasting a fresh engine. In other words, they wanted the best possible choice for the remaming 2 races. To that end, Vettel's fightback and podium finish would be a bonus in the WDC race.

There is no wasting of engine.Vettel now has to race the same engine in U.S.A that he has used in India and Abu Dhabi . Instead he could have changed it in Abu Dhabi and had a fresher engine for the next race and also more options for brazil.Keep in mind that once an engine is used they have to use it continously.Only in the final race can they go back to a previous engine.


No they don't. They have 8 engines which they can use in any order that they wish. It's not like gearboxes which have to run 5 consecutive races before you can replace it.


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 Post subject: Re: Engine Situation
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 11:13 am 
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A2jdl wrote:
Zekenwolf wrote:
sandyf1 wrote:
Zekenwolf wrote:
sandyf1 wrote:
Interesting that alonso has got almost a fresh engine for interlagos thanks to that crash at spa.That could be a big advantage because there is usually a bit of power loss due to the high altitude.
Vettel is also a bit out of sync with the other renault guys.I am surprised they chose not to use a 9 th engine at abu dhabi.


It could be because they had given up on a good result at Abu Dhabi after Vettel's penalty and decided that it was not worth the risk of wasting a fresh engine. In other words, they wanted the best possible choice for the remaming 2 races. To that end, Vettel's fightback and podium finish would be a bonus in the WDC race.

There is no wasting of engine.Vettel now has to race the same engine in U.S.A that he has used in India and Abu Dhabi . Instead he could have changed it in Abu Dhabi and had a fresher engine for the next race and also more options for brazil.Keep in mind that once an engine is used they have to use it continously.Only in the final race can they go back to a previous engine.


I did not know that. I thought that each driver was obliged to use an engine in at least 2 races and that was it.

i think they can use the 8 engines in any combination / order of races, not that an engine has to do at least **
they could put a new one in at a race, then the next event, use another new one or change for an old one etcc..

I didn't know that .. thanks for the clarification.


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 Post subject: Re: Engine Situation
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 11:19 am 
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sandyf1 wrote:
Zekenwolf wrote:
sandyf1 wrote:
Interesting that alonso has got almost a fresh engine for interlagos thanks to that crash at spa.That could be a big advantage because there is usually a bit of power loss due to the high altitude.
Vettel is also a bit out of sync with the other renault guys.I am surprised they chose not to use a 9 th engine at abu dhabi.


It could be because they had given up on a good result at Abu Dhabi after Vettel's penalty and decided that it was not worth the risk of wasting a fresh engine. In other words, they wanted the best possible choice for the remaming 2 races. To that end, Vettel's fightback and podium finish would be a bonus in the WDC race.

There is no wasting of engine.Vettel now has to race the same engine in U.S.A that he has used in India and Abu Dhabi . Instead he could have changed it in Abu Dhabi and had a fresher engine for the next race and also more options for brazil.Keep in mind that once an engine is used they have to use it continously.Only in the final race can they go back to a previous engine.

Yup thanks for that clarification.But i still think redbull should have replaced the engine.


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 Post subject: Re: Engine Situation
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 12:17 pm 
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It won't be a factor. Alonso negotiated the last 6 races of the season in 2010 with just 2 race engines.

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 Post subject: Re: Engine Situation
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 12:18 pm 
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sandyf1 wrote:
But I still think redbull should have replaced the engine.


Okay. Just so that I understand this properly, let us assume that they had replaced it in Abu Dhabi and used a 9th engine. That would have incurred a 10-place grid penalty if I am not mistaken but since Vettel was already as far behind as he could go, it would not have changed his position. But when it came to the next race - Austin - would a further penalty be imposed or would Vettel have been free to qualify on merit?

If it is the latter answer, then I know where you are coming from.

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 Post subject: Re: Engine Situation
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 12:47 pm 
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Zekenwolf wrote:
sandyf1 wrote:
But I still think redbull should have replaced the engine.


Okay. Just so that I understand this properly, let us assume that they had replaced it in Abu Dhabi and used a 9th engine. That would have incurred a 10-place grid penalty if I am not mistaken but since Vettel was already as far behind as he could go, it would not have changed his position. But when it came to the next race - Austin - would a further penalty be imposed or would Vettel have been free to qualify on merit?

If it is the latter answer, then I know where you are coming from.

I just read the rules again and there would be no penalty for the next race.


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 Post subject: Re: Engine Situation
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 1:08 pm 
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So why did they not opt for Engine number 9 if it was essentially a no loss situation?

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 Post subject: Re: Engine Situation
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 2:20 pm 
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lamo wrote:
So why did they not opt for Engine number 9 if it was essentially a no loss situation?


Can it be that although RBR have used their 8 engines, one or more of those are considered to be in good enough condition to use in Austin? If they are allowed to use their 8 in any order they like, that might be the answer.

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 Post subject: Re: Engine Situation
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 2:35 pm 
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Because there was nothing wrong with the engine, and the Abu Dhabi race might have been the last race for that particular engine.


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 Post subject: Re: Engine Situation
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 6:32 pm 
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In this current age of Formula 1. Engine's do not play a significant part in the difference in performance between teams. Take the Renault Engine teams. You have RB leading the way, and Caterham struggling to break out of the Backmarker group. They both have a renault engine in it, so it goes to show Aero is still king.

These engine's loose very little performance over their life cycle, you don't even notice if one engine is at the end of its cycle and if one is just at the start. There's nothing to worry about concerning engine life, Alonso had to do the final fly away's and abit more on only 2 engines in 2010 after loosing one in Malaysia.

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 Post subject: Re: Engine Situation
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 6:38 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Renault is good on consumption, so they are running 10kgs lighter than everybody else at the start of the race. Which equates to a lot of lap time. It might be the case the Ferrari is fuel efficient too and would help explain why there race pace is so much better than qualifying.

Mercedes I believe was considered the most powerful last year and I believe that holds and still edges for best around powerplant.


We don't tend to hear much about conserving fuel, only conserving tyres. Could a driver easy on the gas tank not be even more important than a driver who is easy on the tyres?

Perhaps all drivers use about the same amount of fuel?


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 Post subject: Re: Engine Situation
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 11:13 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Renault is good on consumption, so they are running 10kgs lighter than everybody else at the start of the race.


Is this still true? I'm not so sure.


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 Post subject: Re: Engine Situation
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:06 am 
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Eva09 wrote:
lamo wrote:
Renault is good on consumption, so they are running 10kgs lighter than everybody else at the start of the race. Which equates to a lot of lap time. It might be the case the Ferrari is fuel efficient too and would help explain why there race pace is so much better than qualifying.

Mercedes I believe was considered the most powerful last year and I believe that holds and still edges for best around powerplant.


We don't tend to hear much about conserving fuel, only conserving tyres. Could a driver easy on the gas tank not be even more important than a driver who is easy on the tyres?

Perhaps all drivers use about the same amount of fuel?

It may be the same thing. If your spinning up the rears your using more gas than you should.


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 Post subject: Re: Engine Situation
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:01 am 
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lamo wrote:
So why did they not opt for Engine number 9 if it was essentially a no loss situation?


I believe (not sure though!!) the rule is that once you go on to the 9th engine, u can't use any of the previous 8 engines for the rest of the season. If vettel had taken the 9th engine in Abu dhabi, he would've been forced to use that engine for USA and brazil as well. If it goes bang or needs replacement, he would have to go to engine no 10 along with a 10 spot grid penalty.


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 Post subject: Re: Engine Situation
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:18 am 
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Also, as I mentioned before, there may well be one or two engines out of the 8 that have been used just once. In that case it makes sense not using the 9th engine at Abu Dhabi.

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 Post subject: Re: Engine Situation
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:22 am 
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Desert Storm wrote:
lamo wrote:
So why did they not opt for Engine number 9 if it was essentially a no loss situation?


I believe (not sure though!!) the rule is that once you go on to the 9th engine, u can't use any of the previous 8 engines for the rest of the season. If vettel had taken the 9th engine in Abu dhabi, he would've been forced to use that engine for USA and brazil as well. If it goes bang or needs replacement, he would have to go to engine no 10 along with a 10 spot grid penalty.


No, the rule is if you change an engine under parc ferme rules (once quali has started till after the end of the race) then that engine is never to be used again.

Looking at the graph, Vettel's engine had only completed India (assuming it was the same one), so they would in effect be chucking out an engine that had only been used for 33% of it's expected life.

Also, what's not to say the FIA might have not given permission to change the engine if it didn't have a problem... Or that they might have said change it and you'll get a place place penalty in Austin...

:D :D :D


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 Post subject: Re: Engine Situation
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:56 am 
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Gothalamide wrote:
Desert Storm wrote:
lamo wrote:
So why did they not opt for Engine number 9 if it was essentially a no loss situation?


I believe (not sure though!!) the rule is that once you go on to the 9th engine, u can't use any of the previous 8 engines for the rest of the season. If vettel had taken the 9th engine in Abu dhabi, he would've been forced to use that engine for USA and brazil as well. If it goes bang or needs replacement, he would have to go to engine no 10 along with a 10 spot grid penalty.


No, the rule is if you change an engine under parc ferme rules (once quali has started till after the end of the race) then that engine is never to be used again.

Looking at the graph, Vettel's engine had only completed India (assuming it was the same one), so they would in effect be chucking out an engine that had only been used for 33% of it's expected life.

Also, what's not to say the FIA might have not given permission to change the engine if it didn't have a problem... Or that they might have said change it and you'll get a place place penalty in Austin...

:D :D :D

They are allowed to use a replaced engine in the final race.


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