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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 7:30 pm 
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dave_the_fish wrote:
Sabrina wrote:
WheelGun wrote:
What does that have to do with it?

And my sig only shows that I hate what happened at Macca. Where did I ever state I hated Button. Your in my Brain now?

I find it great ( your sig) :]

I think mines better. :twisted:



Dave I love the new Avi and your sig has always been a favourite of mine :-P

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 7:31 pm 
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SilverstoneRegular wrote:
dave_the_fish wrote:
Sabrina wrote:
WheelGun wrote:
What does that have to do with it?

And my sig only shows that I hate what happened at Macca. Where did I ever state I hated Button. Your in my Brain now?

I find it great ( your sig) :]

I think mines better. :twisted:



Dave I love the new Avi and your sig has always been a favourite of mine :-P

Cheers bud.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:13 pm 
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dave_the_fish wrote:
Sabrina wrote:
WheelGun wrote:
What does that have to do with it?

And my sig only shows that I hate what happened at Macca. Where did I ever state I hated Button. Your in my Brain now?

I find it great ( your sig) :]

I think mines better. :twisted:

not really
The other is a little more inspiring and rhymed

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:21 pm 
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Sabrina wrote:
dave_the_fish wrote:
Sabrina wrote:
WheelGun wrote:
What does that have to do with it?

And my sig only shows that I hate what happened at Macca. Where did I ever state I hated Button. Your in my Brain now?

I find it great ( your sig) :]

I think mines better. :twisted:

not really
The other is a little more inspiring and rhymed


Not really.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 11:00 pm 
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Sabrina wrote:
dave_the_fish wrote:
Sabrina wrote:
WheelGun wrote:
What does that have to do with it?

And my sig only shows that I hate what happened at Macca. Where did I ever state I hated Button. Your in my Brain now?

I find it great ( your sig) :]

I think mines better. :twisted:

not really
The other is a little more inspiring and rhymed

:lol: If you say so!

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 11:19 pm 
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moby wrote:
That is and always will be Brawns team (while he is there)

On the plus side, I believe it was Brawn who built the team around MS at Ferrari, so who knows what wil happen.


I think one of MS' most important skills was being a very good test driver during the days when mass testing was allowed. I think LH is a fast driver but I don't think he is a details man as I think MS is often remembered.

I hope the Merc is fast and I actually think it is good for LH that he has chosen to move. I'm just not sure about the team and the timing (which I understand is just forced by the ending of his contract).

On a separate note, I have been thinking about how the lack of LH at Mclaren may hide the performance of Mclaren's car next year in some races, particularly in quali. It just seems that on occasion LH has been considerably faster in quali compared with JB. With Perez not proving so far to be a good qualifier I wonder if Mclaren will have difficulty with finding a performance baseline for their car.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 1:07 am 
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Well he hasn't managed it at McLaren despite being there before Jensen.

When people speak of building a team I think they mean being able to spearhead and motivate the team to do better. It's all about working with the designers, engineers/mechanics and management. Success starts to become self sustaining, when the team will go the extra mile because they see the driver doing the same and rewarding their efforts with wins and championships.

Lewis got lost up his own ar*e last year so the focus switched to Jensen who unfortunately won’t luck his way to another championship. He hasn't even made the BBC's top twenty drivers.

I wish him well at Mercedes, but I can see him spending a lot of time with those crash happy midfield runners.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 1:09 am 
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Deadly wrote:
moby wrote:
That is and always will be Brawns team (while he is there)

On the plus side, I believe it was Brawn who built the team around MS at Ferrari, so who knows what wil happen.


I think one of MS' most important skills was being a very good test driver during the days when mass testing was allowed. I think LH is a fast driver but I don't think he is a details man as I think MS is often remembered.

I hope the Merc is fast and I actually think it is good for LH that he has chosen to move. I'm just not sure about the team and the timing (which I understand is just forced by the ending of his contract).

On a separate note, I have been thinking about how the lack of LH at Mclaren may hide the performance of Mclaren's car next year in some races, particularly in quali. It just seems that on occasion LH has been considerably faster in quali compared with JB. With Perez not proving so far to be a good qualifier I wonder if Mclaren will have difficulty with finding a performance baseline for their car.



What has Perez shown himself to be good at besides bringing sponsorship money?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 5:38 am 
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tommymarshall16 wrote:
Deadly wrote:
moby wrote:
That is and always will be Brawns team (while he is there)

On the plus side, I believe it was Brawn who built the team around MS at Ferrari, so who knows what wil happen.


I think one of MS' most important skills was being a very good test driver during the days when mass testing was allowed. I think LH is a fast driver but I don't think he is a details man as I think MS is often remembered.

I hope the Merc is fast and I actually think it is good for LH that he has chosen to move. I'm just not sure about the team and the timing (which I understand is just forced by the ending of his contract).

On a separate note, I have been thinking about how the lack of LH at Mclaren may hide the performance of Mclaren's car next year in some races, particularly in quali. It just seems that on occasion LH has been considerably faster in quali compared with JB. With Perez not proving so far to be a good qualifier I wonder if Mclaren will have difficulty with finding a performance baseline for their car.



What has Perez shown himself to be good at besides bringing sponsorship money?


scoring podiums. he has got 3 compared to Kobayashi's 1 and he has outscored Koba so far as well. but generally I agree. the true potential of McLaren may well get hidden next year with both their drivers being mediocre qualifiers. I would have picked Hulkenburg instead of Perez but even with him it wouldn't be the same as having Hamilton. with Hamilton/Alonso/Vettel you just know how quick the car is, both in quali and the race. right now no other driver on the grid can provide that info quite so accurately.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 6:34 am 
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Quoting Ashley313 from another thread - "The difference a driver can make in the garage is with the team. Some personalities can inspire their crew to work above and beyond what is required and some drivers don't get the best from their guys."

I think his comment is spot on - but more relevant to this discussion on team building.

Apologies Ashley313 - Hope you don't mind me quoting your post from another thread!


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 7:39 am 
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LKS1 wrote:
Quoting Ashley313 from another thread - "The difference a driver can make in the garage is with the team. Some personalities can inspire their crew to work above and beyond what is required and some drivers don't get the best from their guys."

I think his comment is spot on - but more relevant to this discussion on team building.

Apologies Ashley313 - Hope you don't mind me quoting your post from another thread!


Although you can look at many teams and find that to be incorrect. Alonso basically acts like a premadonna and gets full backing, MSC is renown for it yet its brought him 0% success reasntly and some would say Jenson has had his worst season since winning the WDC, sure there are other examples.

To say that Lewis shouldnt get the backing of his team because of his personality would mean that McLaren are incredibly childish and unprofessional, the guy brings you talent, wins and performances, you support him or your effectively running a boys club.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 7:56 am 
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bartonz20let wrote:
LKS1 wrote:
Quoting Ashley313 from another thread - "The difference a driver can make in the garage is with the team. Some personalities can inspire their crew to work above and beyond what is required and some drivers don't get the best from their guys."

I think his comment is spot on - but more relevant to this discussion on team building.

Apologies Ashley313 - Hope you don't mind me quoting your post from another thread!


Although you can look at many teams and find that to be incorrect. Alonso basically acts like a premadonna and gets full backing, MSC is renown for it yet its brought him 0% success reasntly and some would say Jenson has had his worst season since winning the WDC, sure there are other examples.

To say that Lewis shouldnt get the backing of his team because of his personality would mean that McLaren are incredibly childish and unprofessional, the guy brings you talent, wins and performances, you support him or your effectively running a boys club.

I think you're missing the point. Its not about a driver being able to produce a WDC winning car, but being able to increase their chances by building the team around them - and whether Lewis is able to do this.

Edit - nobody is saying that Lewis should not have the backing of his team, just wondering whether he is able to 'build a team around him'. His time at McLaren suggests not.

But as long as the team is able to provide one of the 2 best cars - this need not necessarily be a major problem.


Last edited by LKS1 on Sun Nov 11, 2012 8:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 7:59 am 
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bartonz20let wrote:
LKS1 wrote:
To say that Lewis shouldnt get the backing of his team because of his personality would mean that McLaren are incredibly childish and unprofessional, the guy brings you talent, wins and performances, you support him or your effectively running a boys club.


I don't think that was what the quote implied. You are right in that every driver hired and paid to drive for any team will get the full backing and effort of that team and McLaren are no exception. But there are some drivers who inspire the staff - the lesser known guys who do the actual nitty gritty work - to go beyond what is expected or considered adequate to try and get a better result. Ayrton Senna was one of those, probably Schumacher in his prime. Among the present crop, Alonso and Vettel seem to be in that category. It is not easy to describe why but there it is.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 8:02 am 
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Sorry Zekenwolf, I edited my post after you replied.

But I agree with your post.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 8:09 am 
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Johnston wrote:
Sabrina wrote:
becker wrote:
No and he does not have the type of personality to build a team the way Schumacher did in his heyday.

How do you know?



Well going on reports from McLaren personnel, links to which have been posted before on the forum. He has the opposite effect.

Mentions have been made of only being seen being pally with the mechanics when the cameras are about and apparently there was a YT video of him getting engineers names wrong.


Well I'm sure the mechanics will be very happy to be working on the esteemed Button and Perez duo
Far more prestigious to be working on the " nice "guys car than the fastest F 1 driver


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 8:18 am 
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Qiwater wrote:
Well I'm sure the mechanics will be very happy to be working on the esteemed Button and Perez duo
Far more prestigious to be working on the " nice "guys car than the fastest F 1 driver


It has more to do with the driver's attitude than his driving ability. Prestige does not come into it at all. A driver can be in a "small" team with no chance of anything other than scraping up a few points in the season and yet be able to inspire the crew to go all out to work at getting him a single extra point.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 8:24 am 
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adamskyj wrote:
And your delusional like many here whereby you think button fans have said anything of the kind. this place is a joke these days. every hamilton or button thread degenerates into button bashing. obviously the mental state of a many of hamilton fans is as fragile as their idols.


If you can't take the heat stay out of the kitchen .... and stop trying to compare Jenson with Lewis .

There is no comparison between the two drivers . It's like trying to compare Asti Spumante to Moët Chandon .made from grapes, fizzy, drinks . That's as far as it goes .

If you like Jenson stop putting him in the line of fire and throwing insults at the fans of drivers that you wish he was really as good as .


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 8:31 am 
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U need a supporter to build a team. Now that Ron Dennis as his main supporter, have left the team, is it harder.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 8:32 am 
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Isn't it simple? If he couldn't do it at a team he's even at since he was in his early teens how is he going to do it in another team?!

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 8:47 am 
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Zekenwolf wrote:
Qiwater wrote:
Well I'm sure the mechanics will be very happy to be working on the esteemed Button and Perez duo
Far more prestigious to be working on the " nice "guys car than the fastest F 1 driver


It has more to do with the driver's attitude than his driving ability. Prestige does not come into it at all. A driver can be in a "small" team with no chance of anything other than scraping up a few points in the season and yet be able to inspire the crew to go all out to work at getting him a single extra point.


There is absolutely nothing wrong with Lewis,s attitude he turns up each weekend focused professional and gives 100.% every time .

What he does in his private life is no ones business

All he asks of Mclaren is to give him a fast car preferably with bits not falling off and he gets on with it .
And if you think those mechanics don't boast that they work on Lewis's car ....you're mistaken

I don't know what type of wimps you guys on here think mechanics are but people who like racing like racers . Trust me those boys are gutted that Lewis is leaving

And Mercedes can't wait to get him in that car (hopefully one with a decent chassis )
For all here who appear to be confused.
Ross Brawn is building the team
Lewis is one of the top F1 drivers they want the best because believe me Mercedes are renowned for precision and they are slow with development but when done it may be the class of the field .

When Lewis is on point in that car no one will be thinking about his personality


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 9:23 am 
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Qiwater wrote:
.... and stop trying to compare Jenson with Lewis .

There is no comparison between the two drivers.
Haha, the incomparable Jenson Button! I like that! :D

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 9:51 am 
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I'm pretty sure he's read the handbook and watched the DVD. "How to build a team with Michael Schumacher"

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:05 am 
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SilverstoneRegular wrote:
Isn't it simple? If he couldn't do it at a team he's even at since he was in his early teens how is he going to do it in another team?!


It could probably be argued that it would be easier to do so at a new team at which you arrive having already a WDC to your name, being arguably the fastest driver on the grid, keen to put past errors behind you, and having made a decision that the vast majority see as at least 'high risk'.

This could be a more difficult task at a team where you're always going to be the guy who's been there "since he was in his early teens".

I'm suggesting this based on my assumption that, at a base level, jobs in F1 aren't that different from regular jobs that the rest of us plebs have.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:30 am 
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Qiwater wrote:
When Lewis is on point in that car no one will be thinking about his personality


You're quite right. There is not a lot of that to think about.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:31 am 
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fieldstvl wrote:
SilverstoneRegular wrote:
Isn't it simple? If he couldn't do it at a team he's even at since he was in his early teens how is he going to do it in another team?!


It could probably be argued that it would be easier to do so at a new team at which you arrive having already a WDC to your name, being arguably the fastest driver on the grid, keen to put past errors behind you, and having made a decision that the vast majority see as at least 'high risk'.

This could be a more difficult task at a team where you're always going to be the guy who's been there "since he was in his early teens".

I'm suggesting this based on my assumption that, at a base level, jobs in F1 aren't that different from regular jobs that the rest of us plebs have.


Taking the analogy of "like the rest of us in our working life", I find it easier to assert myself and build working relationships with people I know well.. Not saying a newcomer would be excluded but it's much easier to put total trust in someone you know well

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:37 am 
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SilverstoneRegular wrote:
Taking the analogy of "like the rest of us in our working life", I find it easier to assert myself and build working relationships with people I know well.. Not saying a newcomer would be excluded but it's much easier to put total trust in someone you know well


Good point and usually true. But don't you think there are instances where you trust someone you think you know well only for that to be proved wrong some years down the line?

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 1:18 pm 
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The problem with lewis is he has delusions of grandeur, always has. He is not particularly mature and It has been quite clear from day one that he considers himself different from every other driver on the grid and that he has a god given right to win. I think he probably genuinely thinks he will help Mercedes build a faster car.

The above says nothing for his ability, which is vast. However i feel his ego has led him to make a big mistake here.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 1:24 pm 
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Zekenwolf wrote:
SilverstoneRegular wrote:
Taking the analogy of "like the rest of us in our working life", I find it easier to assert myself and build working relationships with people I know well.. Not saying a newcomer would be excluded but it's much easier to put total trust in someone you know well


Good point and usually true. But don't you think there are instances where you trust someone you think you know well only for that to be proved wrong some years down the line?



Like them leaking confidential data?

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 2:31 pm 
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S.DixonFan wrote:
The problem with lewis is he has delusions of grandeur, always has. He is not particularly mature and It has been quite clear from day one that he considers himself different from every other driver on the grid and that he has a god given right to win. I think he probably genuinely thinks he will help Mercedes build a faster car.


You hit the nail right on the head. That is Hamilton's problem and where Vettel scores heaviest over him. It is probably due to the fact that he became associated with McLaren at a very early and impressionable age and developed a certain cockiness that has brimmed over into overconfidence. I recall his disdainful 'monkeys' comment about the backmarkers in his very first season. Then there was the public boast before a race (I don't recall which one specifically) that "my aim is to be on P1 by the first corner!" when he was third behind the Red Bulls on the starting grid; as it happened, he lost a copule of places at the start.

Hamilton always talks about aiming for the WDC at the start of every season. Vettel on the other hand, only talks about preparing for the next race and always in team terms. In the highly competitive world that is F1, drivers have to watch what they say.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 2:58 pm 
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LKS1 wrote:
Edit - nobody is saying that Lewis should not have the backing of his team, just wondering whether he is able to 'build a team around him'. His time at McLaren suggests not.


Not sure I agree with that.

McLaren was built around him in 2008 and 2009. In the first of those years, he delivered a world championship. In the second, McLaren produced a crap car.

McLaren's response to 2009 was to hire the reigning world champion. No WDC is going to move teams to play 2nd fiddle to anyone.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 3:15 pm 
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SilverstoneRegular wrote:
Lewis had a team but Jenson strolled into Hamilton's team and took it off him

you really are unable to make sense huh?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 3:19 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
Sabrina wrote:
becker wrote:
No and he does not have the type of personality to build a team the way Schumacher did in his heyday.

How do you know?



Well going on reports from McLaren personnel, links to which have been posted before on the forum. He has the opposite effect.

Mentions have been made of only being seen being pally with the mechanics when the cameras are about and apparently there was a YT video of him getting engineers names wrong.

:lol: :lol: :lol: really? :lol:...what Mclaren personnel would this be? someone that knows some insider?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 3:25 pm 
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S.DixonFan wrote:
The problem with lewis is he has delusions of grandeur, always has. He is not particularly mature and It has been quite clear from day one that he considers himself different from every other driver on the grid and that he has a god given right to win. I think he probably genuinely thinks he will help Mercedes build a faster car.

The above says nothing for his ability, which is vast. However i feel his ego has led him to make a big mistake here.

:lol: :lol: DR Phil is in the house.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 3:53 pm 
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nike2die4 wrote:
Johnston wrote:
Sabrina wrote:
becker wrote:
No and he does not have the type of personality to build a team the way Schumacher did in his heyday.

How do you know?



Well going on reports from McLaren personnel, links to which have been posted before on the forum. He has the opposite effect.

Mentions have been made of only being seen being pally with the mechanics when the cameras are about and apparently there was a YT video of him getting engineers names wrong.

:lol: :lol: :lol: really? :lol:...what Mclaren personnel would this be? someone that knows some insider?


It was actually a named McLaren mechanic who wrote the account of 2007 season

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 3:54 pm 
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nike2die4 wrote:
SilverstoneRegular wrote:
Lewis had a team but Jenson strolled into Hamilton's team and took it off him

you really are unable to make sense huh?


I fail to see what you can not understand about that sentence

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 4:11 pm 
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I don’t understand why everyone is getting so worked up, wanting to strike out on your own and build a team around you or whatever seems a perfectly reasonable ambition. Whether he is able to actually do this for whatever reason is another story that time will tell.

The detractors might well be proved right, but it’s a bit grim to take the view that he is somehow wrong for having ambitions because of perceived past mistakes – a very closed way of thinking if you ask me.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 4:59 pm 
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Zekenwolf wrote:
S.DixonFan wrote:
The problem with lewis is he has delusions of grandeur, always has. He is not particularly mature and It has been quite clear from day one that he considers himself different from every other driver on the grid and that he has a god given right to win. I think he probably genuinely thinks he will help Mercedes build a faster car.


You hit the nail right on the head. That is Hamilton's problem and where Vettel scores heaviest over him. It is probably due to the fact that he became associated with McLaren at a very early and impressionable age and developed a certain cockiness that has brimmed over into overconfidence. I recall his disdainful 'monkeys' comment about the backmarkers in his very first season. Then there was the public boast before a race (I don't recall which one specifically) that "my aim is to be on P1 by the first corner!" when he was third behind the Red Bulls on the starting grid; as it happened, he lost a copule of places at the start.

Hamilton always talks about aiming for the WDC at the start of every season. Vettel on the other hand, only talks about preparing for the next race and always in team terms. In the highly competitive world that is F1, drivers have to watch what they say.


The word cucumber comes to mind, not sure why?

I really don't understand, are you anti Hamilton lot actually saying that the highly paid, highly professional, dedicated and ambitious staff at McLaren gave a sub standard performance to one of its driver because if they can give 120% to Jenson, you would then set the baseline of Jensons 120% to 100% and anything below that is substandard.

Then by some ridiculous turn in standards you hand out tin hats to people who say he was compromised deliberately by his team, you cant have it both ways.

Personally, I don't believe either to be completely true, if at all.

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Last edited by bartonz20let on Sun Nov 11, 2012 5:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 5:40 pm 
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SilverstoneRegular wrote:
nike2die4 wrote:
SilverstoneRegular wrote:
Lewis had a team but Jenson strolled into Hamilton's team and took it off him

you really are unable to make sense huh?


I fail to see what you can not understand about that sentence

the fact that you think Jenson strolled in and took Hamilton's team off him is nonsense...am not surprised you don't get that though.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 5:53 pm 
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bartonz20let wrote:
I really don't understand, are you anti Hamilton lot actually saying that the highly paid, highly professional, dedicated and ambitious staff at McLaren gave a sub standard performance to one of its driver because if they can give 120% to Jenson, you would then set the baseline of Jensons 120% to 100% and anything below that is substandard.


I don't think that is being said - at least I do not believe that to be the case. The McLaren crew are giving 100% professional service to Hamilton and will continue to do so until the day he leaves. The same thing applies to all professional pit and other F1 crew and their drivers. There is no question mark about professionalism.

But in certain instances some team members would push themselves "beyond the call of duty" ie what is expected of them in their job description for a particular driver. Not because anyone, including the driver himself, asked them to do so but simply because they instinctively felt like doing so themselves. The personality and the attitude of the driver will have a lot to do with it. The end result of that extra effort may be something or nothing depending on the team and the driver but IMO what counts is that it was there.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 5:54 pm 
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nike2die4 wrote:
SilverstoneRegular wrote:
nike2die4 wrote:
SilverstoneRegular wrote:
Lewis had a team but Jenson strolled into Hamilton's team and took it off him

you really are unable to make sense huh?


I fail to see what you can not understand about that sentence

the fact that you think Jenson strolled in and took Hamilton's team off him is nonsense...am not surprised you don't get that though.


Why is it nonsense?

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