planetf1.com

It is currently Mon Nov 24, 2014 1:12 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 3:00 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:00 pm
Posts: 605
Let's put a cemented wall in every corner there..... cause you know, more " punishment ".

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:48 am 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:06 am
Posts: 2115
Tarmac is not going to stop you if you have a brake failure unless you have a lot of run-off area, but it is going to help you if you make a driver error. There is a chance that gravel will make you airborne, but it will slow you down faster if you are going slowly enough. A balance needs to be found between safety and punishment and at the moment its leaning too far towards safety, one of the biggest problems is all these new circuits have ridiculously massive long straights which means there has to be lots of run off. Just look at India, Korea and Abu Dhabi, all of them have massive straights, doesn't do much for overtaking (without DRS) and hence leads to massive run off zones and therefore a lots of tarmac, make the straights shorter add more corners (not 90 degrees) and then you can add gravel for punishment if a driver goes wide.

_________________
Danger is real, fear is choice.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition
Best Round Result: 1st (Monaco 2012, Silverstone 2014)
Podiums: 5
2014 Championship Standing: *mumble*


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:35 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:04 am
Posts: 1481
specdecible wrote:
Tarmac is not going to stop you if you have a brake failure unless you have a lot of run-off area, but it is going to help you if you make a driver error. There is a chance that gravel will make you airborne, but it will slow you down faster if you are going slowly enough. A balance needs to be found between safety and punishment and at the moment its leaning too far towards safety, one of the biggest problems is all these new circuits have ridiculously massive long straights which means there has to be lots of run off. Just look at India, Korea and Abu Dhabi, all of them have massive straights, doesn't do much for overtaking (without DRS) and hence leads to massive run off zones and therefore a lots of tarmac, make the straights shorter add more corners (not 90 degrees) and then you can add gravel for punishment if a driver goes wide.


T1 concern is not brake failure. That turn is taken at relatively high speed with only medium braking. The tarmac is there so driver has chance to recover if he makes mistake or if the back of the car gives away causing slide. Not to mention in stock car races the car is heavy enough for its momentum alone taking it wide in that corner. The tarmac there gives better chance of avoiding injury to driver in case of mistake as it is relatively high speed corner with more than moderate elevation change.
And this is a balanced solution. There will obviously be a instant penalty if driver takes advantage of this runoff to gain position or time like it is on other circuits where you must give back position if you cut the chicane. The current concern was proximity of the wall next to such high speed corner.
This circuit is still very flowing circuit. The speed is result of not just straight but the momentum carried right from juncao exit which slingshots the car on the start straight.
If you put gravel or grass there, the extra space will be actually more deadly than help in any way for safety. This is the only practical solution without making changes to actual track layout. Putting gravel trap there would be as dangerous if not more than having a wall there.

This solution actually preserves the flowing nature of the track. The other solution would have been to put a chicane there which would have totally ruined the circuit.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:55 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:45 am
Posts: 275
metamorphomisk wrote:
Let's put a cemented wall in every corner there..... cause you know, more " punishment ".


:nod:

_________________
Forgive me, Budweiser clouds my judgement sometimes...

Member of the Lewis Hamilton fan club but yet to receive my customary tin foil hat.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:46 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Nov 03, 2008 1:37 pm
Posts: 1751
metamorphomisk wrote:
Let's put a cemented wall in every corner there..... cause you know, more " punishment ".

Well lets make all the cars limited to 60 mph. After all that would be much safer...

_________________
If...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 9:01 am 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:06 am
Posts: 2115
funkymonkey wrote:
specdecible wrote:
Tarmac is not going to stop you if you have a brake failure unless you have a lot of run-off area, but it is going to help you if you make a driver error. There is a chance that gravel will make you airborne, but it will slow you down faster if you are going slowly enough. A balance needs to be found between safety and punishment and at the moment its leaning too far towards safety, one of the biggest problems is all these new circuits have ridiculously massive long straights which means there has to be lots of run off. Just look at India, Korea and Abu Dhabi, all of them have massive straights, doesn't do much for overtaking (without DRS) and hence leads to massive run off zones and therefore a lots of tarmac, make the straights shorter add more corners (not 90 degrees) and then you can add gravel for punishment if a driver goes wide.


T1 concern is not brake failure. That turn is taken at relatively high speed with only medium braking. The tarmac is there so driver has chance to recover if he makes mistake or if the back of the car gives away causing slide. Not to mention in stock car races the car is heavy enough for its momentum alone taking it wide in that corner. The tarmac there gives better chance of avoiding injury to driver in case of mistake as it is relatively high speed corner with more than moderate elevation change.
And this is a balanced solution. There will obviously be a instant penalty if driver takes advantage of this runoff to gain position or time like it is on other circuits where you must give back position if you cut the chicane. The current concern was proximity of the wall next to such high speed corner.
This circuit is still very flowing circuit. The speed is result of not just straight but the momentum carried right from juncao exit which slingshots the car on the start straight.
If you put gravel or grass there, the extra space will be actually more deadly than help in any way for safety. This is the only practical solution without making changes to actual track layout. Putting gravel trap there would be as dangerous if not more than having a wall there.

This solution actually preserves the flowing nature of the track. The other solution would have been to put a chicane there which would have totally ruined the circuit.

I was talking about all tracks in general, not just Interlagos

_________________
Danger is real, fear is choice.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition
Best Round Result: 1st (Monaco 2012, Silverstone 2014)
Podiums: 5
2014 Championship Standing: *mumble*


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:07 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:09 pm
Posts: 1113
Meh, that sucks -.-

_________________
米克尔 科琳娜 吉娜 米克
Keep Fighting Michael!

Forza Jules!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:41 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2008 4:07 pm
Posts: 5774
PzR Slim wrote:
metamorphomisk wrote:
Let's put a cemented wall in every corner there..... cause you know, more " punishment ".

Well lets make all the cars limited to 60 mph. After all that would be much safer...

Or add run offs...

_________________
***


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:50 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Nov 03, 2008 1:37 pm
Posts: 1751
dizlexik wrote:
PzR Slim wrote:
metamorphomisk wrote:
Let's put a cemented wall in every corner there..... cause you know, more " punishment ".

Well lets make all the cars limited to 60 mph. After all that would be much safer...

Or add run offs...

Or leave it as a gravel trap...

_________________
If...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:15 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2008 4:07 pm
Posts: 5774
PzR Slim wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
PzR Slim wrote:
metamorphomisk wrote:
Let's put a cemented wall in every corner there..... cause you know, more " punishment ".

Well lets make all the cars limited to 60 mph. After all that would be much safer...

Or add run offs...

Or leave it as a gravel trap...

Image

;)

_________________
***


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:19 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Nov 03, 2008 1:37 pm
Posts: 1751
dizlexik wrote:
PzR Slim wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
PzR Slim wrote:
metamorphomisk wrote:
Let's put a cemented wall in every corner there..... cause you know, more " punishment ".

Well lets make all the cars limited to 60 mph. After all that would be much safer...

Or add run offs...

Or leave it as a gravel trap...

Image

;)

That would work, a bucket and spade so that the drivers have got something to do when they are out of the race as a result of making a mistake and beaching it!

_________________
If...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:22 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:30 pm
Posts: 740
Location: East Sussex, UK
What people don't realise is that that kid actually arrived at the trap at 153mph. See.....he looks safe :D


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:04 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:35 am
Posts: 769
this sucks.

but maybe its for the best.

they had an Overtaking Working Group the teams, so they should have a similar group for this problem.

its rubbish, that drivers make mistakes and are not punished for it (all run off areas that are creeping into the circuits) they should be punished for it. its part of motor racing.
however they dont need to get injured or die so they need to think of the off track areas a lot more.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:21 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2012 7:31 pm
Posts: 225
time to introduce slow down penalties like in sims, if you leave the track, your car will be speed limited for a number of seconds.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:32 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Nov 03, 2008 1:37 pm
Posts: 1751
G1n wrote:
time to introduce slow down penalties like in sims, if you leave the track, your car will be speed limited for a number of seconds.

Or how about if you leave the track at a certain corner you must rejoin at a predetermined point after following a predetermined route.

_________________
If...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:36 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:35 am
Posts: 769
safety is paramount, however drivers must be punished.

it doesnt mean that if you make one teeny error then race over. gravel traps did this. sometimes you got away with it, sometimes not. but it has been proven that they can sometimes not slow a driver down in the event of an accident.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:48 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 12:46 pm
Posts: 405
Location: Plano, TX
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nV944fbJB5g

This is one of the reasons gravel is frowned upon.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:55 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Nov 03, 2008 1:37 pm
Posts: 1751
Cold Gin wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nV944fbJB5g

This is one of the reasons gravel is frowned upon.

And tarmac instead of gravel would have made a difference how in that situation?

_________________
If...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:01 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:41 am
Posts: 423
Location: Toronto, Canada
It's tough because it is a move for safety. I'm all for it, I don't want to see people getting hurt/killed but the tarmac doesn't penalize driver error enough. That's the whole point of F1 ultimate performance racing, if you get it wrong, there should be consequences. It'll sort itself out in a few years.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:02 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 12:46 pm
Posts: 405
Location: Plano, TX
PzR Slim wrote:
Cold Gin wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nV944fbJB5g

This is one of the reasons gravel is frowned upon.

And tarmac instead of gravel would have made a difference how in that situation?


HK speared into the wall with almost no visible diminishment in speed when his left front went down. Had there been asphalt there, the three wheels he had left to brake with would have made some difference in slowing him down. Maybe he still hits the wall, but the difference would have been more.

Here's another example---Nicky Hayden at Aragon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0dSv-5LSmI

Corners with large entry speeds, or corners that are fast in general should have asphalt on the outside of them as I see it--they are much safer if someone goes off the track at high speed. Gravel and grass are hard to hit the brakes on. I think gravel and grass are much preferable in medium to slower speed stuff for the punishment factor though.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:31 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Nov 03, 2008 1:37 pm
Posts: 1751
Cold Gin wrote:
PzR Slim wrote:
Cold Gin wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nV944fbJB5g

This is one of the reasons gravel is frowned upon.

And tarmac instead of gravel would have made a difference how in that situation?


HK speared into the wall with almost no visible diminishment in speed when his left front went down. Had there been asphalt there, the three wheels he had left to brake with would have made some difference in slowing him down. Maybe he still hits the wall, but the difference would have been more.

Here's another example---Nicky Hayden at Aragon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0dSv-5LSmI

Corners with large entry speeds, or corners that are fast in general should have asphalt on the outside of them as I see it--they are much safer if someone goes off the track at high speed. Gravel and grass are hard to hit the brakes on. I think gravel and grass are much preferable in medium to slower speed stuff for the punishment factor though.

You really think his other three corners would have had effective contact with the tarmac?

_________________
If...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:52 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 12:46 pm
Posts: 405
Location: Plano, TX
Sure I would (at least two of his tires would have, anyway). You think surfing along gravel is the more optimum solution?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:55 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Nov 03, 2008 1:37 pm
Posts: 1751
Cold Gin wrote:
Sure I would (at least two of his tires would have, anyway). You think surfing along gravel is the more optimum solution?

I think neither solution is going to be effective in that situation.

_________________
If...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:07 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:41 pm
Posts: 3098
Is part of the issue with gravel traps and the like not that if you are on your wheels they don't slow you down much, and if you are upside down in something like an F1 car, the roll hoop digs in and slows you down at a sickening rate?

I think, if I had to land upside down, I'd rather it was tarmac than gravel or grass. Not that that is based on fact, just my own preference.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:18 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 2:56 pm
Posts: 475
Too much of the outside of the race track is tarmac these days. T1 at interlagos this weekend proved that. There were quite a few went wide on that corner and there was so much tarmac that they skipper T2 and drove back onto the track ready for turn 3, losing hardly any time at all for going massively wide. And the stewards didn't bother with penalising them for missing a corner! F1 is ridiculous these days.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:42 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 12:46 pm
Posts: 405
Location: Plano, TX
I was hoping someone would notice as well.

An easy solution is the sleeping policeman that are on some tracks. Forces you to driver slower as it upsets the car and makes it jump over. If you raise them to a significant height then nobody would attempt to just drive over them full throttle. Then again, if someone had a failure this could possibly launch a car if it hit it at racing speed.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:01 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:59 am
Posts: 68
Yeah, saw a lot of offs there with very little consequences. Shame.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:22 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:49 pm
Posts: 1791
AngreetRoll wrote:
Too much of the outside of the race track is tarmac these days. T1 at interlagos this weekend proved that. There were quite a few went wide on that corner and there was so much tarmac that they skipper T2 and drove back onto the track ready for turn 3, losing hardly any time at all for going massively wide. And the stewards didn't bother with penalising them for missing a corner! F1 is ridiculous these days.


No wonder - It was Alonso making use of the newly created facility twice ... LOL


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:42 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:18 pm
Posts: 325
Location: Evansville, IN
There will be curbs placed for the next race. Make it like the first turn at Catalyuna ( I think) and it'll be fine.

_________________
2013 PF1 Pick 10: 2nd Canadian GP


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Blackhander, cirujano, jrwb6e, Katie PI, lamo, lbennie, obliv1on911, sherm300m, specdecible and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group