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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:54 pm 
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I'm sorry, I am as understanding about NASCAR as one can be, but they are NOT as professional as most drivers in the elite category in their form of racing. When was the last time Lewis texted someone while the track was green, from his car? Or mark webber threw his helmet at a car moving on track? Someone's crew chief said "fairy cakes" in an interview after Phoenix - I bet NASCAR didnt issue a formal reminder about language. How often do f1 drivers tell the press the other guy is gonna pay atthe ext round for crashing into him? These aren't super random occurrences either. I don't watch that much NASCAR but every time I have tuned in something like that has happened.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:57 pm 
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You're dead on point as usual Blinky, but I think there was a bit of snark that you missed in the post you quoted.

I don't think Becker really thought Talledega Nights was a documentary. Ar least I hope they didn't.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:01 pm 
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It seems like there will always be a culture clash between NASCAR and pretty much every other form of motorsport. Revenge style driving has always been a part of it and it seems like victims such as Bowyer understand that if you mess with someone like Gordon (and I guess the same went for Earnhardt) on too many occasions then they will get you back.

I agree when Bakering says that doesn't make NASCAR any less of a sport. I would say though that it makes NASCAR less of a racing series and more of a racing/destruction hybrid. It's one thing saying 'rubbing is racing' and another thing altogether to say that deliberately wrecking other drivers is racing. Wrecking sure as heck isn't racing, no matter what sport you are used to.

It's all well and good saying that F1 fans should let NASCAR be - In fact I agree with that for the most part. My only problem with that view is when you see dangerous blocking (like with Daly's GP3 Monaco crash) and revenge driving (Maldonado at Spa) then you start to wonder if young drivers climbing up the F1 ladder are looking up to NASCAR as an example of top-level racing and assuming the behavior seen there is acceptable in Europe, or any form of open-wheel for that matter. I hope not, because NASCAR sets a dreadful example for those drivers to follow.

Then again, it's arguable that NASCAR shouldn't be blamed for that - Instead we should be blaming the FIA for doing absolutely nothing when dangerous driving occurs. I'm sure the Grosjean incident in Spa was a misjudgement rather than something reckless or intentional, but I was glad to see him get a ban just because I think the stewards need to start adopting a much tougher stance.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:09 pm 
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Cold Gin wrote:
:lol:

Sweet Jesus, when Blake sees this he is going to explode.


Damn.... just after I promise the mods that I would "behave", I have to see something like this thread pop up.

As usual, we have a batch of people who don't know a damn thing about NASCAR telling the world how bad it is and how great F1 is. I knew this was going to happen as soon as last night's last lap shenanigans happened. F1 fans racing to show us how much better F1 is. Why is NASCAR such a threat to some of you? It must be a threat or you would just ignore it and not bother with these kind of threads.

How many of you critics have ever been to a NASCAR race? I can about guess.

Who are some of to put your definition of "professional" on another sport if you really don't know the sport, follow the sport or care to attempt to learn it's history?

I really don't give a didly damn if some of you like NASCAR or not, or if you ever will, but it bugs the hell out of me when I see people spouting off as though they are better than those who follow the sport, or the put downs (drunk drivers, fat drivers) of the drivers, and the suggestions that they are without talent or not professional. Not to mention the put downs of the fans...redneck fans, inbred fans, ignorant fans, typical Americans who are easily entertained.

Why is it so difficult for some of you to understand that there is racing life outside of F1 and/or WRC and it does not have to conform to your definitions? It is like those who cry that a driver cannot be considered a great driver if they don't race in F1. That is all baloney.

The actions yesterday at Phoenix were over the top, no doubt about it. And there will punishments coming... and justifiably so.

As some have said, NASCAR is a different sort of racing than F1, and that does not make it worse ...or better... just different. They are not trying to force all of you to like it so why the need to constantly put it down?

There is a reason that many American (North American) racing fans view F1 as "elitist" or "snobby" and threads like this are part of the reason.

However, Cold Gin....
I am not angry that this thread has started or the responses as I expected it.... what I really am is mad at myself! A few weeks ago when this happened, I promised myself to make a copy of my response so that I wouldn't have to type it all out all over again, and I didn't do it!!!

:evil:

:lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:11 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
I'm sorry, I am as understanding about NASCAR as one can be, but they are NOT as professional as most drivers in the elite category in their form of racing.


That is YOUR opinion, and absolutely nothing more.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:24 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
becker wrote:
Do they breathalise Nascar drivers after crashes and fights? Most of them look pretty fat and red-faced, I would not be surprised if they have alcohol problems.

I saw a documentary about Nascar and suffice to say I was not impressed by their discipline and behaviour. I think Will Ferrell narrated it.


Umm, Will Ferrell is a comedian, and what he did was a comedic parody of NASCAR. It went right over your head, you missed the message.

The truth, as it shall be known outside of the closed circle of those who know absolutely nothing about NASCAR, is that they are just as skilled and professional as their Formula One counterparts. But hey, who am I to argue with someone who uses Will Ferrell as a reference source and never watched a NASCAR race?

NASCAR and Formula One have developed into entertainment sports, they rules are juggled to entertain, not deliver a racing purist's idea of a race. Most of you watch the hours of pre-race stuff, and the post-race analysis, and in this forum I see more speculation on personalities than discussion on the actual racing. It's all showbiz, baby.

Because of the economy in the US and because NASCAR is facing a shrinking audience, they have gone over to giving the fans what they want, the G-W-C, the playoff format, and the "have at 'em" attempt to allow the drivers to police themselves. It's hilarious when I see so many posts in here complaining that the FIA has too many rules and they police too much.

Of course NASCAR has flaws, but so does the FIA. I watched the Phoenix race, and although I agree some people involved acted like jerks, I can guarantee you that if anyone watched the last ten laps they would not have been able to turn their eyes away from the TV, and that a lot of people are talking about the race. And really, honestly, isn't what it's all about, entertainment, buzz, and increased viewership?

I don't condone fighting, but it sure is better than putting in water sprinklers as one attempt to "spice up the action" in Formula One.


You bring up many valid points, Blinky. I hope some of our more critical forumites take them to heart.
:thumbup:

There really is room in this world for both racing series...enough fans for both... and there are even fans of both F1 and NASCAR.

I have never understood the need to make a choice between them. I really enjoy both racing series greatly. Sure makes life a bit easier that way... if a bit more expensive going to both types of races.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:25 pm 
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It's a bit more than an opinion when the facts are plain to see. The f1 world was all upon arms because two drivers said bad words. That's standard at a NASCAR event and no one pays any mind. That's just one avenue of comparison. Please, by all means, try to make an evidenced case for professionalism among NASCAR drivers.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:36 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
It's a bit more than an opinion when the facts are plain to see. The f1 world was all upon arms because two drivers said bad words. That's standard at a NASCAR event and no one pays any mind. That's just one avenue of comparison. Please, by all means, try to make an evidenced case for professionalism among NASCAR drivers.


No, ashley, you are applying your definition of professional and claiming that it is fact. Sorry, that doesn't work. No matter how you try to spin it, it is still nothing more than your opinion.

Just because the "f1 world was all upon arms" because of a pair of bad words, it doesn't mean that NASCAR driver are unprofessional if they use them. Are English football players, NBA basketball players, NFL football players, MLB baseball players professionals? Think carefully, because a lot of them have used bad words on several occasions.

Yet somehow you have chosen to define professional driver by the use of bad words in the heat of the moment. Sorry, ashley, I don't buy it.
:D

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:48 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Why is it so difficult for some of you to understand that there is racing life outside of F1 and/or WRC and it does not have to conform to your definitions? It is like those who cry that a driver cannot be considered a great driver if they don't race in F1. That is all baloney.


None of the racing I follow (and I do follow something more than F1) has drivers deliberately taking each other out. F1 has a dark past, because they should've banned Schumacher from the sport after he took out Hill in 1994, but sadly it wasn't in the FIA's commercial interests back then. After Senna's death they needed a new star, so Schumacher stayed.

I did see Peugeot holding an Audi car to prevent the Germans from winning Le Mans a few years ago but, although a dirty tactic, it's a far cry from deliberately taking an opponent out of the race. The NASCAR guys do it because their cars are tanks and they think nothing is going to happen to them. They'd quickly change their tune if a death happened.

Also, if F1 isn't the elite series in the planet, then why are other series full of F1 has-beens who are only there because they were kicked from F1? Barrichello, Montoya, Coulthard, Ralf Schumacher, Heidfeld, Piquet Jr., most of them are driving in other series nowadays because they were either kicked from F1 or couldn't make it to F1, like Neel Jani (who was a former single-seater driver and now drives for Rebellion in the WEC). Di Resta had a top drive in DTM, yet he chose to go to F1 rather than stay in DTM where he was the reigning champion, and DTM is probably the best touring car series in the world. Jacques Villeneuve, Zanardi and Montoya all went to F1 after winning CART (in Zanardi's case a rather unsuccessful comeback), and this was when CART was almost on par with F1. Räikkönen spent a few years in rally but came back to F1; he may not enjoy the showbiz, but he certainly enjoys the cars and the racing, and he could have a drive anywhere, he's a WDC after all.

Compared with the current state of racing in the US, F1 and other worldwide series are leaps and bounds ahead, no question. IndyCar is a joke, NASCAR can't be taken seriously, the ALMS is dying, Grand-Am is disreputable... The only time the USA had a series that could rival with F1 was in the mid-90s with CART, but thanks to Tony George that's all gone now and the current IndyCar is basically a zombie waiting for someone to put it to the ground, especially now that Tony George is expected to rule the series again. Don Panoz is butthurt that the FIA created the WEC, which effectively lowered the prestige of his ALMS, and went right to the France family, who controls NASCAR, and sold himself out.

Tom Kristensen won Le Mans 8 times I think, he has the record for most Le Mans wins by a driver, he's certainly a great driver, because winning Le Mans is no joke. But Ayrton Senna and Michael Schumacher are considered the best drivers that ever lived. Kristensen never drove in F1, the other two were F1 world champions.

There are quite a few more arguments on why F1 is the premier motorsport series in the world, but those I listed are enough I think. If your only argument is "F1 fans are a bunch of elitists", then well I can't do anything to help you...

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:52 pm 
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Speaking of Nascar and Talladega Nights. That IS the best racing movie of all.
Now lets thank baby jesus.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:53 pm 
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NASCAR drivers have been fined and even docked championship points for swearing in the past. I'm guessing that isn't their main point of investigation here, though. :D


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 9:05 pm 
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Blake wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
It's a bit more than an opinion when the facts are plain to see. The f1 world was all upon arms because two drivers said bad words. That's standard at a NASCAR event and no one pays any mind. That's just one avenue of comparison. Please, by all means, try to make an evidenced case for professionalism among NASCAR drivers.


No, ashley, you are applying your definition of professional and claiming that it is fact. Sorry, that doesn't work. No matter how you try to spin it, it is still nothing more than your opinion.

Just because the "f1 world was all upon arms" because of a pair of bad words, it doesn't mean that NASCAR driver are unprofessional if they use them. Are English football players, NBA basketball players, NFL football players, MLB baseball players professionals? Think carefully, because a lot of them have used bad words on several occasions.

Yet somehow you have chosen to define professional driver by the use of bad words in the heat of the moment. Sorry, ashley, I don't buy it.
:D

I gave many examples beyond language of what is unprofessional behavior for a racing driver. If you have qualms with my definition of "professional" by all means offer a better one. And yes, there are examples of unprofessional participants in any sport.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 9:21 pm 
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Piket87 wrote:
Blake wrote:
Why is it so difficult for some of you to understand that there is racing life outside of F1 and/or WRC and it does not have to conform to your definitions? It is like those who cry that a driver cannot be considered a great driver if they don't race in F1. That is all baloney.


None of the racing I follow (and I do follow something more than F1) has drivers deliberately taking each other out. F1 has a dark past, because they should've banned Schumacher from the sport after he took out Hill in 1994, but sadly it wasn't in the FIA's commercial interests back then. After Senna's death they needed a new star, so Schumacher stayed.

Assuming of course that there is no doubt that the incident with Hill was 100% Schumi's fault. I, for one, do not agree with that. BTW, are you SURE that none of the racing you follow has ever had a driver deliberately take out another?

I did see Peugeot holding an Audi car to prevent the Germans from winning Le Mans a few years ago but, although a dirty tactic, it's a far cry from deliberately taking an opponent out of the race. The NASCAR guys do it because their cars are tanks and they think nothing is going to happen to them. They'd quickly change their tune if a death happened.

Death has happened in NASCAR, and sadly, it will again, as it will in F1. There is no question of the dangers of open-wheel racing, yet we do see drivers making avoidable contact almost every race. At some point, we have to accept that in racing, there are times when emotions are stronger than wisdom.

Also, if F1 isn't the elite series in the planet, then why are other series full of F1 has-beens who are only there because they were kicked from F1? Barrichello, Montoya, Coulthard, Ralf Schumacher, Heidfeld, Piquet Jr., most of them are driving in other series nowadays because they were either kicked from F1 or couldn't make it to F1, like Neel Jani (who was a former single-seater driver and now drives for Rebellion in the WEC). Di Resta had a top drive in DTM, yet he chose to go to F1 rather than stay in DTM where he was the reigning champion, and DTM is probably the best touring car series in the world. Jacques Villeneuve, Zanardi and Montoya all went to F1 after winning CART (in Zanardi's case a rather unsuccessful comeback), and this was when CART was almost on par with F1.

Your whole paragraph above is further proof of the "elitist" attitude of so very many F1 fans. Again, the assumption that a driver HAS to race in F1 in order to be an elite driver. You have chosen to list a group of drivers who used to drive in F1 but for various reasons are no longer in the sport. There are many top drivers in this world who have not driven in F1 for numerous reasons, including the lack of interest in driving in F1. That is their choice, it does not make them lesser drivers because of it... despite how many of the fans care to characterize it.

Compared with the current state of racing in the US, F1 and other worldwide series are leaps and bounds ahead, no question. IndyCar is a joke, NASCAR can't be taken seriously, the ALMS is dying, Grand-Am is disreputable... The only time the USA had a series that could rival with F1 was in the mid-90s with CART, but thanks to Tony George that's all gone now and the current IndyCar is basically a zombie waiting for someone to put it to the ground, especially now that Tony George is expected to rule the series again. Don Panoz is butthurt that the FIA created the WEC, which effectively lowered the prestige of his ALMS, and went right to the France family, who controls NASCAR, and sold himself out.

Now you have chosen to put down racing in the US... not just NASCAR, but also IRL, and ALMS, and Grand-Am. Who are you to place your knowledge of racing so high above the racing peons like myself who happen to enjoy every one of those racing series you just trashed? Should I have to bow in your presence? Have you been to an INDY 500? I have. Have you been to a NASCAR superspeedway? I have. A NASCAR short track? I have. Perhaps a NASCAR road course
? I have. Been to a CART race? I have. Have you been to a Petit LeMans ALMS race? I have.

Yet you know so much more than I (and other Americans) about racing in the USA and care to call it a "joke", "disreputable", or tell us that it can't be taken "seriously". Sorry piket... I don't buy it.


Tom Kristensen won Le Mans 8 times I think, he has the record for most Le Mans wins by a driver, he's certainly a great driver, because winning Le Mans is no joke. But Ayrton Senna and Michael Schumacher are considered the best drivers that ever lived. Kristensen never drove in F1, the other two were F1 world champions.

And your point is? I know full well who Tom is, and Ayrton and Schumacher. So what is your point? BTW, EACH one of them has driven in the USA at some point, we actually do know a little bit about racing here in the miserable racing world of US racing.

There are quite a few more arguments on why F1 is the premier motorsport series in the world, but those I listed are enough I think. If your only argument is "F1 fans are a bunch of elitists", then well I can't do anything to help you...

You have actually done the F1 racing fan a great disservice, piket. For your post has in some ways justified my point as to why many American racing fans see F1 as "elitist"... Why do some of you seem to insist on going this direction? Wouldn't it just be easier to sit back and enjoy both, or just ignore which ones you don't like? Why always the posturing?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 9:24 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
I gave many examples beyond language of what is unprofessional behavior for a racing driver. If you have qualms with my definition of "professional" by all means offer a better one. And yes, there are examples of unprofessional participants in any sport.


Ashley, don't you see that you are placing your "values" on the word professional. Using bad words are not a factor in whether I see a driver as being professional. It might affect my respect for them to some degree, but not whether they are professional or not.

If your values and mine are not the same, so be it... life is that way. It doesn't make one of right or wrong, unless we try to portray our values as indisputable fact.
:)

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:13 pm 
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All I'm asking you to do is tell us what you think being professional means for a racing driver, and how the bulk of NASCAR racers exemplify that. Why is that so difficult?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:42 pm 
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How exactly do F1 drivers exemplify "professional" behavior?

We have Vettel saying F**k on live tv on the podium, Kimi saying Sh*t live on the podium. Michael Schumacher who has been in more than 1 fight in his career. Lewis Hamilton who tweets about how sad he is that people un-friended him when they never followed him to begin with. Vettel calling someone a cucumber (lol). LH tweeting team sensitive data. Kimi taking a fairy cakes then telling a reporter such. I could go on and on but drivers are people. F1 drivers are no different than NASCAR drivers.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:45 pm 
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It is not difficult, but it not me who is claiming that my definition of "professional" consist of not using bad words by my standards. Yours apparently does. I find the use of a few swear words rather insignificant in the description of what is a professional driver. I don't get hung up on such trivial aspects. If that is of primary importance to you, the so be it. However don't expect everybody else to apply the same standard by calling it "fact".

My definition is simply that a driver lives up to his responsibilities as a driver, that he gives his the best that his skills will allow,

That he/she has respect for his sport, his team and the fans is important as well, however, I don't think a few expletives make a driver unprofessional. If so, I suspect there are very few "professional" drivers in ANY racing series, NASCAR and F1 included.

Now, I think we have beat this horse to death....

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:48 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
All I'm asking you to do is tell us what you think being professional means for a racing driver, and how the bulk of NASCAR racers exemplify that. Why is that so difficult?


That's actually a valid question.

What I was referrring to was that NASCAR drivers are not overweight or alcoholics. But in many senses they are just as professional as Formula One drivers in many disciplines. They train to keep their bodies in shape, they participate in sponsor events, they practice and test cars. And when it's time to thank their sponsors, no one does it better than a NASCAR driver.

Now let's talk about conduct, filthy language, drug abuse, and of course behavior and fighting. Filthy language is definitely a no-no, NASCAR has a zero tolerance policy, and any one using as much as the s--t word on TV will be punished. In Formula One, a nice little letter comes out of Todt reminding his drivers to keep it clean.

Drug abuse, alcoholism is also not tolerated, just look at what happened to Allmendinger, Hmiel, Mayfield, and many others.

When it comes to physical confrontations and acting a fool, that is the environment NASCAR lives in, nay, marinates in. I have lost count of how many times I've heard a NASCAR driver rationalize bumping another car, citing "self-defence", or some other limp reason. And the sanctioning body turns a blind eye, fans love it, and in the end the driver with the most "red neck" in him usually makes the most money. Let's face it, if you avoid contact, drive nice and clean, and never take anyone's racing line away from them in NASCAR, you will get run over and always finish poorly in the race.

The environment encourages such behavior, some drivers take to it naturally, and some have to play the part. It's not the drivers, it's the environment.

Bloody shame we're debating this because Harvick's driving on the restart with 8 laps to go was a thing of beauty.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:10 pm 
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Why are you all hung up on ONE example of unprofessional behavior that I gave? Foul language wasn't the only thing discussed. What about statements to the media/public about intentionally hitting other drivers, or planning to do it in upcoming races as payback? What about having a cell phone in your racing car and using it during green flag racing? What about throwing things at other drivers on track? When an F1 driver slips up its a major story because it doesn't happen often. In Nascar these things are non-stories because they happen regularly.

My definition of professionalism for a racing driver is meeting all the literal requirements of your employment - being physically and mentally fit for your job, being on time, following the rules, etc., performing the public duties in your contract - showing up to events when you are supposed to, in the right clothes, saying what you are supposed to say, etc., and representing yourself in a way that does not reflect poorly on your team - you are a role model whether you signed up to be one or not, you speak for not just your team but also the sponsors whose names are on your car, and in a way your fans as well. Can every driver be 100% upstanding 100% of the time? Of course not, but in modern F1 racing I think you find that most of the time, most of the drivers uphold this standard. Based on the frequency with which you see examples of Nascar racers NOT living to this standard, I say they are in general less professional.

As I pointed out before - that isn't necessarily a reflection of their character as much as it is the fact that they are ALLOWED to behave that way, and in a way a little bit encouraged to. Telling the media you hit a driver on purpose, or throwing a helmet at a moving car, would earn a dramatically different response from the FIA than from NASCAR, with dramatically different consequences.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:20 pm 
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Do you even watch any NASCAR or is this just based off a few headlines you have heard? - This is a legitimate question.

You know that NASCAR has 36 races this season, along with about 5 special events. They also have a little under 40 drivers. I think you are basing your assumptions that they are unprofessional off 1 or 2 incidents this year. I could do the same with F1 if I didnt watch the sport and it would make sense to me that they were all unprofessional (I gave you examples in my last post).

They are not ALLOWED to intentionally take someone out of the race, Gordon will get punished for this, I can assure you.

Did it happen ... yes ... is it allowed ... no ... is there an uproar about it ... you bet ... will he be disciplined ... yes


EDIT:

http://nascar.speedtv.com/article/cup-n ... eselowski/

Here you go, penalties for all, fines for all, lost points for Gordon.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:44 pm 
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Yes, I do watch it beyond headlines. Are a couple of $100,000 penalties and loss of 25 pts a big deal in a series where drivers make millions and have thousands of points at the end of the season? Doesn't seem like it. If RoGro said he hit Lewis intentionally at Spa, his career would probably be over. Like I said, the governing body's actions carry different consequences, and thus different behavior exists.

I don't have a problem with nascar or its drivers. I don't particularly enjoy it, but I don't place it below other types of racing in terms of difficulty or significance or whatever. I think throwing your helmet at a car on track is kind of funny. But I do think that by the standards seen in most other elite forms of motorsport, nascar drivers in general are less professional, and for their business that's not a huge deal.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:01 am 
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You also have to remember the consiquences for their actions in a closed wheel race car are far different than a open wheel. Example you mention throwing a helmet ... that isnt going to do anything to the car/driver it hits for sprint cup, but same helmet thrown at an Indy or F1 car you could kill the driver. An accident in NASCAR is far less dangerous than an accident in F1, you cant legislate them the same when their actions carry far less consequences.

Take RoGro at Spa where he got so close to Alonso (it was spa wasnt it? You know which race Im talking about). In a F1 car because the way the cars are made that was extremely dangerous. Replace those with NASCAR cars and everyone drives away and continues the race. 2 very different outcomes from the same type of accident. You cant treat NASCAR like F1 because they are too different.


I dont see how they are less professional. Senna took Prost out so he could secure a championship yet he is held up as a king of the sport. I know that was a long time ago but there are other examples. Piquet intentionally crashing to help his team mate. How much more unprofessional can you get. The difference is the drivers are less filtered into robots in NASCAR and they dont have a problem saying what they think where in F1 drivers say what the team wants them to, except on occasion when a cucumber gets in the way or you feel like cursing on the podium. For every example of an unprofessional NASCAR driver I can give you one for F1. AND F1 has half he drivers and almost half the races as NASCAR so you get a 400% more interview per race time. So you should be able to come up with 4 times as many unprofessional instances as F1 pretty easy.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:13 am 
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ashley313 wrote:
Are a couple of $100,000 penalties and loss of 25 pts a big deal in a series where drivers make millions and have thousands of points at the end of the season? Doesn't seem like it.


On that part I disagree. A hundred grand is a hundred grand, even to a multi-millionaire to Jeff Gordon. And last year, Carl Edwards would love to have just one point more, with that he would have becomes the NASCAR champ. The title was decided by much less than 25 points in 2011.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:22 am 
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Nascar is so boring they have to do something to make it more appealing to the audience


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:24 am 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
Are a couple of $100,000 penalties and loss of 25 pts a big deal in a series where drivers make millions and have thousands of points at the end of the season? Doesn't seem like it.


On that part I disagree. A hundred grand is a hundred grand, even to a multi-millionaire to Jeff Gordon. And last year, Carl Edwards would love to have just one point more, with that he would have becomes the NASCAR champ. The title was decided by much less than 25 points in 2011.


The top 9 drivers are separated by 87 points, 25 points is a lot to all of them. Even if there are a lot of points in a season, they race a lot closer than F1 does so they are separated by a smaller margin (%).

I am not sure but I think Gordon was like 6th or so before this and now hes 11th, thats a pretty big drop.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:27 am 
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I loved it!

It was all over the internet and so many ppl who don't watch Nascar got a taste of it.

As sad as it is, this is exposure for Nascar and if they do this more often then a grantee even more ppl will watch it.

I know F1 drivers need to play cool and calm on the track. Gentlemen if you will, but don't give me that crap. Hamilton wanted to kick Massa's donkey if he could. Webber would have loved to take a swing at Romain more than once.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:34 am 
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Cozz wrote:
I loved it!

It was all over the internet and so many ppl who don't watch Nascar got a taste of it.

As sad as it is, this is exposure for Nascar and if they do this more often then a grantee even more ppl will watch it.

I know F1 drivers need to play cool and calm on the track. Gentlemen if you will, but don't give me that crap. Hamilton wanted to kick Massa's donkey if he could. Webber would have loved to take a swing at Romain more than once.

Piquet Sr. Vs Salazar 1982. A push, a swing, and a kick for good measure. :lol:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JogHiSR5P4&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:55 am 
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number27 wrote:

Maybe not in 2012, but what about Singapore 2008? I don't recall F1 doing much about that particular can of worms - as far as I know, the race result still stands to this day................................


About the result, the FIA cannot change it. Unfortunately it's written into the rules and they couldn't simply alter those rules to change this one result.

But for the "I don't recall F1 doing much...", I seem to remember the two head members of the team being banned from Formula One (first indefinitely, then on a reduced several-year-long sentence after appeal). The driver now couldn't find a seat in Formula One if he could pay for it.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:05 pm 
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Toby. wrote:
North American racing doesn't get a good rep in Formula One circles. Some of it is probably uncalled for, but I cannot comprehend the idiocy of some NASCAR racers ...
How does a series that often considers itself to have some of the best drivers in the world hold its head up high when so-called 'racers' are so reckless and unprofessional - dare i say immature - in their conduct? NASCAR doesn't need respect or support from outside North America, but surely somebody high within the series' political framework must at some point think "Hold on a second - we condone this?".

...

It's a redneck mindset. I can't comprehend it because that way of thinking is so foreign to me. It's like the Tea Party in US politics - they seem to exist in a different universe.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:14 pm 
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daytona81 wrote:
Drivers would be banned? I guess that's why Maldonado still races and Schumacher still races and Montoya was never banned.

Please post the links where those drivers announced in advance, over radio, that they were going to deliberately wreck another driver who was lapping them - and subsequently unapologetically admitted in interviews, saying they "stood by their actions".

Please post a link to the FIA's announcement of their "boys have at it" rule.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:19 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
Why are you all hung up on ONE example of unprofessional behavior that I gave? Foul language wasn't the only thing discussed.

No, but you brought it up twice as an example of how F1 was more professional because F1 was all up in arms and swearing was 'normal' in NASCAR. That's why people (including me) pointed out that NASCAR has both fined drivers and penalized them championship points for swearing in post-race interviews while swearing during the F1 podium ceremony interviews earned drivers all of a 'stern warning' from the FIA.

For me, professionalism is different depending upon the demands of the sport. Some motor racing disciplines require better physical fitness than others; in some disciplines, experience can be as important as raw talent. In general professionalism means being properly prepared, performing the duties you are required to do both on and off the track, being a positive influence for the team, doing the best you can and in general showing a passion for what you do and respecting, encouraging and thanking the fans who support your sport.

Were the actions at last weekend's NASCAR race unprofessional? Of course they were. But, given the differences between the two formulae, I don't think they were any worse than some of the crap Maldonado has pulled in the past two seasons. NASCAR drivers are more likely to get into scraps like that than than F1 drivers, but they are also more likely to spend hours and hours at fan-focused events than F1 drivers, which is another aspect of professionalism.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:23 pm 
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Bakerking31 wrote:
... How about 2011 with Maldo and LH? Is 2011 not close enough to present for you?

Please post link to showing Malonado admitting, both before and after the crash, his intention to deliberately wreck LH. And saying he stood by that action.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:27 pm 
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neti1 wrote:
Bakerking31 wrote:
... How about 2011 with Maldo and LH? Is 2011 not close enough to present for you?

Please post link to showing Malonado admitting, both before and after the crash, his intention to deliberately wreck LH. And saying he stood by that action.

I think it was pretty bloody obvious from the in car cameras what went on that day. Same with Monaco this year. Schumacher never admitted Jerez 97 was ever deliberate but we all know it was.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:31 pm 
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neti1 wrote:
Bakerking31 wrote:
... How about 2011 with Maldo and LH? Is 2011 not close enough to present for you?

Please post link to showing Malonado admitting, both before and after the crash, his intention to deliberately wreck LH. And saying he stood by that action.

Honestly, I have more respect for Gordon having the balls to admit that what he did was intentional (knowing penalties and punishments would ensue) than I do for Maldonado who denied both of his incidents in order to avoid punishment and bad publicity.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:36 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Cold Gin wrote:
:lol:

Sweet Jesus, when Blake sees this he is going to explode.


Damn.... just after I promise the mods that I would "behave", I have to see something like this thread pop up.

As usual, we have a batch of people who don't know a damn thing about NASCAR telling the world how bad it is and how great F1 is. I knew this was going to happen as soon as last night's last lap shenanigans happened. F1 fans racing to show us how much better F1 is. Why is NASCAR such a threat to some of you? It must be a threat or you would just ignore it and not bother with these kind of threads.

How many of you critics have ever been to a NASCAR race? I can about guess.

Who are some of to put your definition of "professional" on another sport if you really don't know the sport, follow the sport or care to attempt to learn it's history?

I really don't give a didly damn if some of you like NASCAR or not, or if you ever will, but it bugs the hell out of me when I see people spouting off as though they are better than those who follow the sport, or the put downs (drunk drivers, fat drivers) of the drivers, and the suggestions that they are without talent or not professional. Not to mention the put downs of the fans...redneck fans, inbred fans, ignorant fans, typical Americans who are easily entertained.

Why is it so difficult for some of you to understand that there is racing life outside of F1 and/or WRC and it does not have to conform to your definitions? It is like those who cry that a driver cannot be considered a great driver if they don't race in F1. That is all baloney.

The actions yesterday at Phoenix were over the top, no doubt about it. And there will punishments coming... and justifiably so.

As some have said, NASCAR is a different sort of racing than F1, and that does not make it worse ...or better... just different. They are not trying to force all of you to like it so why the need to constantly put it down?

There is a reason that many American (North American) racing fans view F1 as "elitist" or "snobby" and threads like this are part of the reason.

However, Cold Gin....
I am not angry that this thread has started or the responses as I expected it.... what I really am is mad at myself! A few weeks ago when this happened, I promised myself to make a copy of my response so that I wouldn't have to type it all out all over again, and I didn't do it!!!

:evil:

:lol:

I think that it's valid to criticize NASCAR for boosting their ratings by permitting drivers to deliberately wreck each other. It is dangerous to anyone in physical proximity, and sends an irresponsible message to the viewers that violence is an acceptable way to solve disputes.

Perhaps you could try explaining why you think such an ethos is acceptable, instead of hiding behind the tired "elitist" and "snob" insults you routinely substitute for substantive debate.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:46 pm 
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The majority of fans who watch Nascar really watch it for the crashes, not the racing


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:03 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
Why are you all hung up on ONE example of unprofessional behavior that I gave? Foul language wasn't the only thing discussed. What about statements to the media/public about intentionally hitting other drivers, or planning to do it in upcoming races as payback? What about having a cell phone in your racing car and using it during green flag racing? What about throwing things at other drivers on track? When an F1 driver slips up its a major story because it doesn't happen often. In Nascar these things are non-stories because they happen regularly.

My definition of professionalism for a racing driver is meeting all the literal requirements of your employment - being physically and mentally fit for your job, being on time, following the rules, etc., performing the public duties in your contract - showing up to events when you are supposed to, in the right clothes, saying what you are supposed to say, etc., and representing yourself in a way that does not reflect poorly on your team - you are a role model whether you signed up to be one or not, you speak for not just your team but also the sponsors whose names are on your car, and in a way your fans as well. Can every driver be 100% upstanding 100% of the time? Of course not, but in modern F1 racing I think you find that most of the time, most of the drivers uphold this standard. Based on the frequency with which you see examples of Nascar racers NOT living to this standard, I say they are in general less professional.

As I pointed out before - that isn't necessarily a reflection of their character as much as it is the fact that they are ALLOWED to behave that way, and in a way a little bit encouraged to. Telling the media you hit a driver on purpose, or throwing a helmet at a moving car, would earn a dramatically different response from the FIA than from NASCAR, with dramatically different consequences.

I think it really comes down to a discussion of values. NASCAR exemplifies and promotes a certain mentality in which people are admired for settling their problems with violence, either "behind the hauler" (a phrase beloved of certain fans) or by retaliating on track. Most other series discourage and punish such behavior.

I suspect that this attitude extends beyond the race track to a broader question of what one considers the measure of "civilized" behavior. Note that I use the term "civilized" not as a cultural pejorative, but as an indicator of one's belief in how a society should be organized - i.e. the extent to which violence is accepted as a part of a civilization. Is the right to protection from violence paramount, or the right to use violence to solve one's own problems? IMO, NASCAR represents the civilization of the Old West, in which men were respected accordingly to their ability to enforce such respect with fists and bullets, without recourse to governement intervention.

I would argue that such attitudes play far too large a part in shaping US society even today, particularly in foreign policy. NASCAR's on-track values are reflected in the rather right-wing political culture which surrounds and interpenetrates it - one of the many reasons for my antipathy.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:21 pm 
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DaveStebbins wrote:
neti1 wrote:
Bakerking31 wrote:
... How about 2011 with Maldo and LH? Is 2011 not close enough to present for you?

Please post link to showing Malonado admitting, both before and after the crash, his intention to deliberately wreck LH. And saying he stood by that action.

Honestly, I have more respect for Gordon having the balls to admit that what he did was intentional (knowing penalties and punishments would ensue) than I do for Maldonado who denied both of his incidents in order to avoid punishment and bad publicity.

Actually, I blame NASCAR, more than the drivers. NASCAR sets the rules and hence the values of the series. By proclaiming "boys have at it", they have encouraged a culture in which drivers perceive that they have to enforce respect with violence - in which the failure to retaliate will encourage other drivers to be more violent towards you. With no official deterrent to excessively rough driving, retaliation (deliberate wrecking) is the only way a driver can prevent themselves from being seen as an easy victim, and hence becoming a target for other drivers to bash their way past.

Of course, the end result is of all this is a bunch of innocent bystanders having their races ruined, brawls in the pits, etc, etc. Despite NASCAR's pretended indignation at the "Battle of the Mechanics", they love the ratings boost - and it is utterly hypocritical to ignore the connection between their encouragement of on-track violence and the effect that has on encouraging more direct physical confrontation in the pits. By encouraging one you support a value system which encourages all violence - as can be seen from the loud and enthusiastic approval of the spectators observing the pit-lane fracas. NASCAR is attracting fans who enjoy violence, and implicitly endorsing the same.

And if this ends with someone dead or badly injured, I suspect NASCAR will be shocked! shocked! - and claim they couldn't possibly have predicted it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjbPi00k_ME


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:02 pm 
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neti1 wrote:
DaveStebbins wrote:
neti1 wrote:
Bakerking31 wrote:
... How about 2011 with Maldo and LH? Is 2011 not close enough to present for you?

Please post link to showing Malonado admitting, both before and after the crash, his intention to deliberately wreck LH. And saying he stood by that action.

Honestly, I have more respect for Gordon having the balls to admit that what he did was intentional (knowing penalties and punishments would ensue) than I do for Maldonado who denied both of his incidents in order to avoid punishment and bad publicity.

Actually, I blame NASCAR, more than the drivers. NASCAR sets the rules and hence the values of the series. By proclaiming "boys have at it", they have encouraged a culture in which drivers perceive that they have to enforce respect with violence - in which the failure to retaliate will encourage other drivers to be more violent towards you. With no official deterrent to excessively rough driving, retaliation (deliberate wrecking) is the only way a driver can prevent themselves from being seen as an easy victim, and hence becoming a target for other drivers to bash their way past.

Of course, the end result is of all this is a bunch of innocent bystanders having their races ruined, brawls in the pits, etc, etc. Despite NASCAR's pretended indignation at the "Battle of the Mechanics", they love the ratings boost - and it is utterly hypocritical to ignore the connection between their encouragement of on-track violence and the effect that has on encouraging more direct physical confrontation in the pits. By encouraging one you support a value system which encourages all violence - as can be seen from the loud and enthusiastic approval of the spectators observing the pit-lane fracas. NASCAR is attracting fans who enjoy violence, and implicitly endorsing the same.

And if this ends with someone dead or badly injured, I suspect NASCAR will be shocked! shocked! - and claim they couldn't possibly have predicted it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjbPi00k_ME

I agree with what you have written. The irony is that, as different as they are, NASCAR and F1 are both owned by groups who would do pretty much anything for more money.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:05 pm 
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neti1 wrote:
I think it really comes down to a discussion of values. NASCAR exemplifies and promotes a certain mentality in which people are admired for settling their problems with violence, either "behind the hauler" (a phrase beloved of certain fans) or by retaliating on track. Most other series discourage and punish such behavior.

I suspect that this attitude extends beyond the race track to a broader question of what one considers the measure of "civilized" behavior. Note that I use the term "civilized" not as a cultural pejorative, but as an indicator of one's belief in how a society should be organized - i.e. the extent to which violence is accepted as a part of a civilization. Is the right to protection from violence paramount, or the right to use violence to solve one's own problems? IMO, NASCAR represents the civilization of the Old West, in which men were respected accordingly to their ability to enforce such respect with fists and bullets, without recourse to governement intervention.

I would argue that such attitudes play far too large a part in shaping US society even today, particularly in foreign policy. NASCAR's on-track values are reflected in the rather right-wing political culture which surrounds and interpenetrates it - one of the many reasons for my antipathy.


OMG... now we are given a diatribe from neti that ends with the shaping of the US society, foreign policy, right-wing political culture... the history of America's Old West... according to Neti.

Could you possibly be any more full of yourself, neti? For me to respond further respond with what I really want to say about your post would get me banned...

Mods, I think this thread is going a direction that may very well become explosive

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