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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:25 am 
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Psychotext wrote:
I wonder if there's something in Webber's driving style which damages his KERS unit. Vettel had a similar thing a couple of years ago but seems to have got a handle on it now (or at least he has fewer KERS issues for whatever reason).

I believe it has more to do with Webber's size than his driving style. Webber is the largest driver on the grid and therefore takes up more room in the car which leaves less room for cooling the KERS unit and batteries making them overheat and malfunction. It's only 1 theory though as to why it seems to affect Webber more so than Vettel.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:16 pm 
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specdecible wrote:
Psychotext wrote:
I wonder if there's something in Webber's driving style which damages his KERS unit. Vettel had a similar thing a couple of years ago but seems to have got a handle on it now (or at least he has fewer KERS issues for whatever reason).

I believe it has more to do with Webber's size than his driving style. Webber is the largest driver on the grid and therefore takes up more room in the car which leaves less room for cooling the KERS unit and batteries making them overheat and malfunction. It's only 1 theory though as to why it seems to affect Webber more so than Vettel.


Mark's size has nothing to do with the KERS cooling. the car from the outset is designed to accommodate his frame, all the KERS cooling is happening behind the driver.

What is different between Mark's and Seb's car is the amount and location of ballast that each can run, Seb can run more and closer to the ground giving him a lower CoG and hence slightly better handling.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:27 pm 
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Webber lost a few kg's this year so its closer than ever.

Also considering Webber was losing significant time with no KERS for a majority of the race he done well to finish within 13 seconds of Vettel.

Hell the KERS failure alone could be worth 13 seconds over 50 odd laps.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:28 pm 
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PacificBeach wrote:
darksides wrote:
The way I saw it, Vettel got a lead in the first stint and Webber was preserving his tyres... second stint Webber was catching Vettel because the roles were reversed, until Webber's KERS failed.


Webber went into the pits in 30th lap and Vettel in 33st lap. Vettel had 3 more laps on the first set of tires! Vettel's final lap on his first stint was even quicker than Webber's first fast lap on his new tires
:)

Why would Webber was conserve tires in the first stint anyway? To sell them after the race?


I'm really not surprised that the last lap on soft tyres when he's pushing as hard as he can to take any life out of them before he pits would be faster than a car with no KERS which is on new tyres which he is trying to conserve.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 3:21 pm 
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How can you not love those race weekends where Mark looks like a second or third row contender, and he puts it on the front row? :) Looking forward to a race that is a little more interesting than I had previously expected regarding Mark Webber's performance.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 6:01 pm 
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Misinformed wrote:
How can you not love those race weekends where Mark looks like a second or third row contender, and he puts it on the front row? :) Looking forward to a race that is a little more interesting than I had previously expected regarding Mark Webber's performance.


I don't know why, either Mark will be slow off the grid or some kind of malfunction will happen during the race which will allow Vettel to get past Mark early on and then challenge Hamilton. Unless Vettel is shunted to the back of the grid RB will find some way of switching the order.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 7:35 pm 
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All Mark can for Vettel now is keep Ferndog behind.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:15 pm 
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There is now a nice remote sized hole in my TV. That poor start cost Webber big time this race

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:20 pm 
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Frustrating.

One of Mark's worst races. :thumbdown:


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:25 pm 
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One of Webber's worst races. From start to finish.
Bad luck happens in 3s usually. He had 3 smashes today. The first 2 were amatuer mistakes and he should have given more room. He usually slices through the field but today was a shocker. All he can do is put it behind him now and refocus for the next race.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:25 am 
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Mark's race once again dictated by his poor start.

Stuck behind the slightly slower Alonso/Maldonado in dirty air, went for opportunistic but legit moves on Maldonado and Massa only to have them outbreak themselves into his sidepod.

The DiResta/Perez/Grosjean incident was unavoidable for Mark unfortunately. It's a pity because he was faster than Alonso and technically should've finished ahead of him.

I am a bit miffed at the praise heaped on Vettel for a result that was 80% strategy/safety car. Vettel struggled to get past Button even when Button was on the harder tyre, not to mention Vettel's numerous incidents througout the weekend. He is no hero.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:56 am 
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Agree darksides, the guy was driving a reasonably strong race and was simply unlucky the guys he tried to pass drove into him.

As for the starts, Webber knows how to start a car, you don't get into F1 without knowing how to get away cleanly.

Starting an F1 car relies hugely on the set-up and the engineers just haven't got it right. Hamilton got a bad start earlier in the season and he was furious with his team, it goes well beyond the driver.

If you read into the technical side of things it's clear it's much, much more than the driver and has everything to do with the settings. If it was Vettel, RB would have the issues fixed by now.

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Last edited by Formula1Fan. on Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:58 am 
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That was a frustrating race to watch for Mark

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:07 am 
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chilli_boy3 wrote:
That was a frustrating race to watch for Mark

To be honest I found it entertaining, I knew once Maldonado crashed into him he would go hell for leather, and he did, ruthlessly passing Massa and refusing to move over for Vettel on fresh tyres in the process. It's just a shame Grosjean turned into him when he did as I feel Webber was in for an exciting finish.

As fans we should bear in mind India and Abu Dhabi aren't even favourite tracks for Webber but he has been fast at both. As for anyone blaming him for the starts, I would suggest they read up on exactly what goes into starting an F1 car. It's massively technical and relies heavily on set-up.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:20 am 
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Formula1Fan. wrote:
chilli_boy3 wrote:
That was a frustrating race to watch for Mark

To be honest I found it entertaining, I knew once Maldonado crashed into him he would go hell for leather, and he did, ruthlessly passing Massa and refusing to move over for Vettel on fresh tyres in the process. It's just a shame Grosjean turned into him when he did as I feel Webber was in for an exciting finish.

As fans we should bear in mind India and Abu Dhabi aren't even favourite tracks for Webber but he has been fast at both. As for anyone blaming him for the starts, I would suggest they read up on exactly what goes into starting an F1 car. It's massively technical and relies heavily on set-up.

Yeah while I do say that it was still an entertaining race for me.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:55 am 
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Vettel had a normal race for him. Only he played catchup not drive away. He got supremely lucky that he didnt have to overtake many cars due to them all crashing and the safety cars kept bunching the field.

It was a good drive, no one can deny that. But it wasnt spectacular or anything.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:39 am 
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Quote:
Webber, 36, has had plenty of pace in recent races, starting from the front row in three of the past four and finishing on the podium in two, but Abu Dhabi was a disaster. His slow start from the front row of the grid, which he blamed on ''lots of different reasons that I won't go into'', suggesting problems with the programming of his Red Bull-Renault RBR8's complex clutch system, doomed him to getting involved in aggressive battles back in the pack, one of which was his undoing.

Webber survived a collision with Venezuelan Pastor Maldonado, but was eliminated by crash-prone Frenchman Romain Grosjean in the aftermath of a melee ahead of them.

''You just don't want to be in the position where you need to be coming back and fighting through because, ultimately, it'll come and bite you in the pickle,'' he said.

''When you have a poor start, you're exposed. All of a sudden you have to do some racing, which I'm fine with, but the numbers are a bit more against you in terms of having smooth Sunday afternoons when you get caught in the pack. You might have a little bit of contact here and there, which we did.''

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/motorspo ... z2CA1udAhw

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:26 am 
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Webber often eludes to problems for his clutch. But Red Bull more than anything wanted him to finish ahead of Fernando at that race. They wouldn't have done anything to screw up his clutch.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:48 am 
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His starts this year on average have been much better than last years, but they're still not great. The constant issues have been such an ongoing and inconsistent problem which costs him a real shot to tackle the championship for the past 3-4 years which makes it so frustrating to see.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:07 am 
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infi24r wrote:
Webber often eludes to problems for his clutch. But Red Bull more than anything wanted him to finish ahead of Fernando at that race. They wouldn't have done anything to screw up his clutch.

Not deliberately perhaps, but it is clear there is an ongoing issue with the start set-up which goes beyond the driver.

Obviously Mark Webber knows how to start an F1 car, all the drivers do, it's why they're there. I don't recall any consistent issues with Webber's RB starts until 2011, that's when they really started going awry.

What bugs me is that if it were Vettel having the poor starts the entire Red Bull F1 organisation would be focused on adjusting things to ensure he got the best possible chance of making a good start, Webber not so much.

specdecible wrote:
His starts this year on average have been much better than last years, but they're still not great. The constant issues have been such an ongoing and inconsistent problem which costs him a real shot to tackle the championship for the past 3-4 years which makes it so frustrating to see.

Yep. RB can only get one reliable car on the track and it ain't Webber's. It would not be quite so annoying if the problems were spread out between the teammates but a couple of alternator issues aside the problems have been alarmingly one-sided to Webber's garage.

If it doesn't improve I hope he leaves RB next season, preferably to join McLaren but imo even backing up Alonso Ferrari would be better than another tedious season of KERS/DRS/gearbox etc issues bogging him down every time there's some light at the end of the tunnel. It's that old saying: “One can cope with the despair but it's the hope that kills you" :)

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:09 am 
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I did a little bit of digging around to garner Webber's take on the poor starts in the 2011-12 seasons and came up with these quotes - worth a read for those genuinely interested:

Quote:
EVEN from 15,000 kilometres away, Mark Webber hears the Aussie pub chat that while he qualifies strongly and races even more so, his starting grid getaways have been less than perfect this year.

Go no further than a recent grand prix in Belgium. Starting third, Webber was eighth after the short run into the first corner and spent much of the rest of the race fighting back to a brilliant second. (typical Webber! :) )

His response: Don't shoot the bloke at the wheel. "Formula one race starts are 60 to 70 per cent car, while the rest is down to the driver," Webber told the Herald.

With the second part of the season under way at the Belgian Grand Prix at Spa, Webber has been thinking a lot about the first few seconds of the remaining grands prix. He hasn't won this year and sits fourth in the world championship, trailing Red Bull Racing teammate Sebastian Vettel by more than 100 points.

"There have been some good starts - Melbourne, Valencia, Barcelona - but it's an area I would put down as not our strongest point," Webber said.

"Ferrari is doing a good job on starts - Fernando [Alonso] has produced some rocket launches like in Barcelona, as has Felipe [Massa] at times. Still, I think I can hold my own when the technical side of the start process goes well."

Webber said the majority of fans wouldn't understand the technical complexity involved in making a start in a modern seven-speed formula one car.

"It's not like lining up at the traffic lights on Parramatta Road, pulling a bunch of revs, dropping the clutch and firing off,'' he said. "If the initial launch - the first one second - goes well, the rest of the start usually works out. Me and the boys go through the data after every race, and there is often a technical reason for a bad run to the first corner. We're working constantly on improving.

"You have to co-ordinate many things, from exact temperature of the clutch, which the driver doesn't have any control over, to reaction time, which is completely down to the driver.

''We have to put all these things together, in a very short period of time, and we only get one attempt per weekend - in that exact situation; meaning that grid box, grip level etc, which you can never quite emulate perfectly in a practice scenario - to do the business.''

Far from dreading the starts, Webber said he loved it when the lights went out for the race start, even though the pressure was intense and so much depended on the ensuing few seconds.

"But it's a very public thing. All eyes at the track and at home … are watching the start intently.''

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/motorsport/ ... z2CAsTl5xX

Quote:
Mark Webber has said that the new Pirelli tyres have played a major role in his poor starts throughout the 2011 season.

The Red Bull driver has struggled to get his car off the line in a number of races this year, with the Singapore Grand Prix last weekend being another prime example when – having qualified on the front row – he plummeted backwards at the start.

Speaking in his BBC column, Webber insisted that the new Pirelli tyres had played a part in his disappointing starts this year, with the difference in performance making it more difficult to get away from the line.

The rules make it pretty challenging for engineers to get the starts right as launch control and other electronic aids that limit wheel-spin are not allowed,” he wrote. “There is a lot of work for the drivers to do as well. I cannot give too much away but there are a number of procedures to go through before we get going.

When the lights go out, we quickly release one clutch paddle on the steering wheel and feed in a second gradually - that's the one the driver uses to modulate the grip of the rear wheels.

This year, we have seen the biggest fluctuation in starts for years, which is purely down to the new Pirelli tyres and how they perform off the line. It is harder to manage the grip away from the start but if you get it right – as Fernando Alonso did in Monza - it makes a big difference.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:15 am 
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Formula1Fan. wrote:
What bugs me is that if it were Vettel having the poor starts the entire Red Bull F1 organisation would be focused on adjusting things to ensure he got the best possible chance of making a good start, Webber not so much.

its more this. They really just don't care. They don't care about Webbers strategy, his starts or his setup. They know he's good enough to drive the car to decent results and once they started to get the best car again they just moved 100% of the focus to Seb, knowing they would seal the constructors.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:18 am 
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Formula1Fan. wrote:
Yep. RB can only get one reliable car on the track and it ain't Webber's. It would not be quite so annoying if the problems were spread out between the teammates but a couple of alternator issues aside the problems have been alarmingly one-sided to Webber's garage.

Sorry, but this isn't true. I'm as big of a Mark fan as anyone, but Mark has had no mechanical related DNF's since Singapore 2009.

You'd struggle to count on both hands the amount Vettel has had since then


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:48 am 
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In spite of that Mark's problems with KERS, DRS, geargox, clutch, and even steering wheel far outweigh the problems that Sebastian's had.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:25 am 
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infi24r wrote:
Sorry, but this isn't true. I'm as big of a Mark fan as anyone, but Mark has had no mechanical related DNF's since Singapore 2009.

You'd struggle to count on both hands the amount Vettel has had since then

While I don't think counting DNFs are the most accurate measure of reliability Vettel's actually only had 4 mechanical DNFs in 59 GPs* since Singapore 2009, the rest of the time he's been almost as clean as a whistle save for his own driving mishaps. Webber by contrast seems to have a non-stop stream of issues.

*he did have one more puncture retirement in 2011 but that can't really be put down to the team's reliability, just poor luck.

Sure I am a somewhat biased :) Webber fan but even if Vettel were not in the team I would be whinging about the reliability of his car which for the best team on the grid has been shocking in 2011 and 2012.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:45 am 
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Id say Webber and Vettel have suffered near similar misfortune in points so far this year.

Webber typically has problems that make him look slower, were as Seb's almost elevate him higher.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:26 am 
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he hasnt had Mechanical DNFs, but he's certainly had a lot of mechanical issues that have cost him a lot of points


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:04 am 
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Haven't read the whole thread so not sure if this has already been mentioned. If u can get a look a the Bahrain race, check out the reaction of 1 or 2 of his team when he crashes out. Not in the front row but the second row.

Not the typical reaction you would expect from members of your team.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:31 am 
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Jezza13 wrote:
Haven't read the whole thread so not sure if this has already been mentioned. If u can get a look a the Bahrain race, check out the reaction of 1 or 2 of his team when he crashes out. Not in the front row but the second row.

Not the typical reaction you would expect from members of your team.

I didn't see the pictures but I did read some mention of that. Not exactly a satisfactory situation.

Anyhow, MW had this to say of Marko's influence in the team today:

Quote:
Vettel has long been nurtured by Helmut Marko, titled a motorsport consultant at Red Bull but the eyes, ears and mouth piece of team owner Dietrich Mateschitz, and a figure Webber has not always seen eye to eye with.

"Everyone can see where Helmut's allegiance lies," says Webber.

"He's very, very powerful and that's something that will always be the case. But there are two cars and I have the opportunity to drive one of them."


and this to say of this year's title challenge:

Quote:
"I like the car a lot more," he says. "I really didn't like the blown floor and it proved a very difficult car for me. I didn't have a great feel for it and getting the right set-up was hard for me.

"This year has been much better, well better than last year but not as good as 2010. I don't like making excuses but last year I was making plenty of them. Not so this year.

"But this year I needed the perfect season to win the championship, I know that, and that just didn't happen. I'll get another chance next year."


http://edition.cnn.com/2012/11/15/sport ... otorsport/

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:43 pm 
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It's a bit sad that Webber is again falling down the leaderboard, now in 5th.

I just hope he shows a bit of pace in Brasil, he didn't seem to be able to keep up with Hamilton and Vettel in Texas, not sure if that was partly to do with car issues or not.

I still honestly believe Webber is a better driver than Vettel, if Vettel was Webber's height or vice versa, Webber would dominate :P

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:11 am 
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I don't think Webber will have much pace in Brazil. Especially as he not fighting for the championship
I expect his qualifying pace to be half a second off Vettel's which is crazy.
Look at the most recent qualifiers

Japan Vettel .2 seconds roughly quicker
Korea Webber .1 seconds roughly quicker
India Vettel .1 seconds roughly quicker
Abu Dhabi Webber .1 seconds roughly quicker

Basically nip and tuck
Now all of a sudden with the same car Webber was
half a second off the pace in Austin


Well vettel is fighting for the championship so its expected they would spend all the time on his car.
But this guys to show how much of a difference Newey the God designer can make.

Look at when Vettel doesn't have the most extreme set up and work on his car and its even playing field.
Look at the first race this year. Webber with no KERS outqualified Vettel and was stomping him the first half of the year.
Vettel can only win when Newey the design GOD creates the entire car around him , and gives him in the garage the preferential treatment.
If Newey spends twice the amount of time on Vettels car which he does as opposed to Webber's ypou can be sure it wil be quicker.
Setup at each race plays so much difference its crazy.

If he is just working on your car and neglecting the other car then bam the margin just explodes to half a second in qualifying which is a world of difference.
If Newey wants to make you look like Senna he can. Half a second is what seperates the Senna's and schumachers and Hamiltons in this world and Newey can do it on command. This is what people keep who blindly follow a driver fail to realise.
Newey is the best designer last 3 years and he can perform miracles ande make drivers look miracolous.

How is it possible 2 weeks ago Webber outqualifies vettel and then in Austin he gets his donkey handed to him half a second off the pace. And also Webber did not make any mistakes he was way way slower than Vettel through each qualifying round so it wasnt a bad lap from him.
Newey can set your car up to be half a second quicker and it makes Vettel look like Senna.
Newey has proven this time and time again.

All the top drivers say the same exact thing. Even Hamilton recently said vettel did a crap lap in qualifying missed 2 apexes and still put it on Pole.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:16 am 
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Peter77 wrote:
Look at the first race this year. Webber with no KERS outqualified Vettel and was stomping him the first half of the year.
.


"stomped"........qualifying was 5 apiece. Race points had Webber ahead 5-4 with one race tied on points. If you factor in Vettel's alternator dnf costing him 25 points Vettel would have been ahead points wise in 7 races to Webbers 2 with one tie...hardly a "stomping.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 4:38 pm 
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Peter77 wrote:
I don't think Webber will have much pace in Brazil.

Doesn't seem too far off the pace so far.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:06 pm 
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Out-qualifies Vettel again :thumbup: is Vettel supposed to be going all-out chasing the title? 8)

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:14 pm 
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Very average race by Mark. He spent half of it either jumping out of Seb's road or spinning whilst jumping out of Seb's road.

Yet he somehow still finished well ahead of Vettel.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:59 pm 
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infi24r wrote:
Very average race by Mark. He spent half of it either jumping out of Seb's road or spinning whilst jumping out of Seb's road.

Yet he somehow still finished well ahead of Vettel.

Vettel really impeded his race to be honest, but MW is a team player when he has to be (contrary to what trolls imply). Nice for him to finish the season out-qualifying and out-racing his teammate.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:12 pm 
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Formula1Fan. wrote:
infi24r wrote:
Very average race by Mark. He spent half of it either jumping out of Seb's road or spinning whilst jumping out of Seb's road.

Yet he somehow still finished well ahead of Vettel.

Vettel really impeded his race to be honest, but MW is a team player when he has to be (contrary to what trolls imply). Nice for him to finish the season out-qualifying and out-racing his teammate.


Out-Race? You are joking surely. But whatever..

And Webber (if he wanted to help) should have done exactly what Massa did to him on the same corner to let Alonso past. In fact I m amazed that they didnt think and plan for it like a team.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 1:12 am 
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Vettel beat Mark this season with luck and team favouritism... although any of the top 6 with a bit of extra luck could've won this season, take Alonso, super consistent in a reliable but barely above average paced car, only lost by 3 points.

Vettel generally qualified better than Mark, and had better starts than Mark. The team can skew both of those things, and they did more often than not.

I hope Vettel matures at a faster rate because he still seems like a child throwing tantrums most of the time, it's the biggest reason why I dislike him.

Mark still proved he has the pace to fight with the best this season, a good comeback from last seasons woes. 2013 is where he needs to get more consitency so he is at the pointy end of the WDC come seasons end.

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[[[[Mark Webber for the WEC in 2014 and beyond ;)]]]


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:17 am 
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F1yer wrote:
Formula1Fan. wrote:
infi24r wrote:
Very average race by Mark. He spent half of it either jumping out of Seb's road or spinning whilst jumping out of Seb's road.

Yet he somehow still finished well ahead of Vettel.

Vettel really impeded his race to be honest, but MW is a team player when he has to be (contrary to what trolls imply). Nice for him to finish the season out-qualifying and out-racing his teammate.


Out-Race? You are joking surely. But whatever..

And Webber (if he wanted to help) should have done exactly what Massa did to him on the same corner to let Alonso past. In fact I m amazed that they didnt think and plan for it like a team.

Yes out raced. In you own words, Mark spent half of the race either jumping out of Seb's road or spinning whilst jumping out of Seb's road and yet he finished 2 positions higher. And he wasn't the only one jumping out of Seb's road either. I don't know what else to call that but out-raced.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:26 am 
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F1yer wrote:
Formula1Fan. wrote:
infi24r wrote:
Very average race by Mark. He spent half of it either jumping out of Seb's road or spinning whilst jumping out of Seb's road.

Yet he somehow still finished well ahead of Vettel.

Vettel really impeded his race to be honest, but MW is a team player when he has to be (contrary to what trolls imply). Nice for him to finish the season out-qualifying and out-racing his teammate.


Out-Race? You are joking surely. But whatever..

And Webber (if he wanted to help) should have done exactly what Massa did to him on the same corner to let Alonso past. In fact I m amazed that they didnt think and plan for it like a team.

Mark finished in a higher position than Vettel. In general terms, that constitutes the merit of 'out-racing' Vettel. But by reading into what you're trying to say, if Vettel wins from pole, but Mark comes 3rd from say, 11th, does that mean he out-races Vettel? Ignorance is bliss, isn't it?

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