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Would you agreed to whoever gets to the first corner first wins the race?
Yes 11%  11%  [ 4 ]
No 89%  89%  [ 32 ]
Total votes : 36
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:40 pm 
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Hakkinen and Coulthard made the agreement that who ever got to the first corner first would win the race. Now Hakkinen screwed up and Coulthard let him go by into the lead.

Would you have made that agreement with your team-mate?


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:45 pm 
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Nope. I'd have made an agreement that I wouldn't take any unnecessary risks to overtake my team mate, but if he had done what Hakkinen did and made a mistake by coming into the pits when he didn't have to and that gave me the lead then I'd have kept it. Because the team 1-2 would still have been safe and it was his mistake.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:46 pm 
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I'd have made it, weather or not I kept it after Hakks cock up would have been a different matter :twisted:

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:49 am 
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If Coulthard qualified 2nd it's difficult to see why he made the agreement. Isn't it almost a given the pole-sitter is more likely to make it to the first corner?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:00 am 
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Formula1Fan. wrote:
If Coulthard qualified 2nd it's difficult to see why he made the agreement. Isn't it almost a given the pole-sitter is more likely to make it to the first corner?


Mark Webber would love to believe so.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:00 am 
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As if you could be bothered moving over for your team mate, takes too much effort. I'd much rather stay on the racing line and drink powerthirst from my hydro tank.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:02 am 
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Laura23 wrote:
Nope. I'd have made an agreement that I wouldn't take any unnecessary risks to overtake my team mate, but if he had done what Hakkinen did and made a mistake by coming into the pits when he didn't have to and that gave me the lead then I'd have kept it. Because the team 1-2 would still have been safe and it was his mistake.

:thumbup:



What was the situation behind this though? I'm just curious what provoked them to make the agreement.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:13 am 
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Toby. wrote:
Mark Webber would love to believe so.

Sadly Webber is the exception rather than the rule (FU RB! :x :) )

It just doesn't seem like a particularly sensible agreement for Coulthard to make as a second placed driver. In fact if I didn't view DC as a fairly honest bloke I might see it a story concocted by McLaren in order to calm the media by bringing some semblance of honour to a team orders controversy.

Perhaps someone on here knows a bit more about it.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:22 am 
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Formula1Fan. wrote:
Toby. wrote:
Mark Webber would love to believe so.

Sadly Webber is the exception rather than the rule (FU RB! :x :) )
It just doesn't seem like a particularly sensible agreement for Coulthard to make as a second placed driver. In fact if I didn't view DC as a fairly honest bloke I might see it a story concocted by McLaren in order to calm the media by bringing some semblance of honour to a team orders controversy.

Perhaps someone on here knows a bit more about it.


Webber was an inconsistent starter before he went to Red Bull, I remember a few times when he put in a stunning lap in qualifying at Jaguar only to lose 5 or 6 places because of a poor launch. I really, really don't want to derail this thread into yet another Webber #2 vs Red Bull equality back and forth, but you need to put his starts at Red Bull into context by looking at the rest of his career.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:21 am 
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hittheapex wrote:
Webber was an inconsistent starter before he went to Red Bull, I remember a few times when he put in a stunning lap in qualifying at Jaguar only to lose 5 or 6 places because of a poor launch. I really, really don't want to derail this thread into yet another Webber #2 vs Red Bull equality back and forth, but you need to put his starts at Red Bull into context by looking at the rest of his career.

With respect, I think you need to look into the technical aspects of what goes into an F1 start. No one ever seems to bother and just assume it must be the driver. It actually goes well beyond the driver into complex issues of setup and given Webber has 196 Grand Prix starts, a few poor starts at Jaguar does not warrant the tag of his being a poor starter. If he genuinely was a poor starter then he simply wouldn't be in F1, let alone at the best team in the competition. If starts were all on the driver I'd be with you on your assessment, but they aren't, far from it.

Quote:
Lewis Hamilton furious with McLaren over slow start at Monaco

"I really dislike going backwards. My start was one of the worst in a long time. I don't know what my team was up to there. I just don't understand why it happens when the two guys next to me and two behind get perfect ones."


Quote:
"Formula one race starts are 60 to 70 per cent car, while the rest is down to the driver," Webber told the Herald.


For anyone interested I have links to lengthy technical discussions of F1 starts (I won't post them on this thread as they belong to another forum).

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:57 am 
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Formula1Fan. wrote:
hittheapex wrote:
Webber was an inconsistent starter before he went to Red Bull, I remember a few times when he put in a stunning lap in qualifying at Jaguar only to lose 5 or 6 places because of a poor launch. I really, really don't want to derail this thread into yet another Webber #2 vs Red Bull equality back and forth, but you need to put his starts at Red Bull into context by looking at the rest of his career.

With respect, I think you need to look into the technical aspects of what goes into an F1 start. No one ever seems to bother and just assume it must be the driver. It actually goes well beyond the driver into complex issues of setup and given Webber has 196 Grand Prix starts, a few poor starts at Jaguar does not warrant the tag of his being a poor starter. If he genuinely was a poor starter then he simply wouldn't be in F1, let alone at the best team in the competition. If starts were all on the driver I'd be with you on your assessment, but they aren't, far from it.

Quote:
Lewis Hamilton furious with McLaren over slow start at Monaco

"I really dislike going backwards. My start was one of the worst in a long time. I don't know what my team was up to there. I just don't understand why it happens when the two guys next to me and two behind get perfect ones."


Quote:
"Formula one race starts are 60 to 70 per cent car, while the rest is down to the driver," Webber told the Herald.


For anyone interested I have links to lengthy technical discussions of F1 starts (I won't post them on this thread as they belong to another forum).


I know it's a combination of car and driver. I view him as a mediocre starter relative to others on the grid, for the 30-40% he is responsible for but an otherwise fine driver. I was only using the Jaguar starts to put into context the comments about Red Bull, add that to his Red Bull period and it's more than a few...it's not a Red Bull phenomenon that Webber is not getting good starts, what you and I disagree on is the cause.

I won't write any more than that because I think you just misunderstood what I was trying to put across earlier, which was my fault because of my choice of words and I don't want to derail the thread further. I'd be happy to have a debate about the starts in the in depth forum though, I think it could be a good one if, fingers crossed, it doesn't degenerate into a conspiracy thread of drivers vs teams like most of the threads on this forum.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:18 am 
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The truth was probably that there were no agreement like that. That was said to media to avoid discussions. It was a clear team order for DC to let Mika past.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:27 am 
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hittheapex wrote:
Formula1Fan. wrote:
hittheapex wrote:
Webber was an inconsistent starter before he went to Red Bull, I remember a few times when he put in a stunning lap in qualifying at Jaguar only to lose 5 or 6 places because of a poor launch. I really, really don't want to derail this thread into yet another Webber #2 vs Red Bull equality back and forth, but you need to put his starts at Red Bull into context by looking at the rest of his career.

With respect, I think you need to look into the technical aspects of what goes into an F1 start. No one ever seems to bother and just assume it must be the driver. It actually goes well beyond the driver into complex issues of setup and given Webber has 196 Grand Prix starts, a few poor starts at Jaguar does not warrant the tag of his being a poor starter. If he genuinely was a poor starter then he simply wouldn't be in F1, let alone at the best team in the competition. If starts were all on the driver I'd be with you on your assessment, but they aren't, far from it.

Quote:
Lewis Hamilton furious with McLaren over slow start at Monaco

"I really dislike going backwards. My start was one of the worst in a long time. I don't know what my team was up to there. I just don't understand why it happens when the two guys next to me and two behind get perfect ones."


Quote:
"Formula one race starts are 60 to 70 per cent car, while the rest is down to the driver," Webber told the Herald.


For anyone interested I have links to lengthy technical discussions of F1 starts (I won't post them on this thread as they belong to another forum).


I know it's a combination of car and driver. I view him as a mediocre starter relative to others on the grid, for the 30-40% he is responsible for but an otherwise fine driver. I was only using the Jaguar starts to put into context the comments about Red Bull, add that to his Red Bull period and it's more than a few...it's not a Red Bull phenomenon that Webber is not getting good starts, what you and I disagree on is the cause.

I won't write any more than that because I think you just misunderstood what I was trying to put across earlier, which was my fault because of my choice of words and I don't want to derail the thread further. I'd be happy to have a debate about the starts in the in depth forum though, I think it could be a good one if, fingers crossed, it doesn't degenerate into a conspiracy thread of drivers vs teams like most of the threads on this forum.

I've often wondered about 'starts' too. Whilst once they get going it makes sense that some drivers may perform better than others, it makes no sense at all to me that some drivers are just slow off the grid nearly all of the time.

I thought about starting a thread about it, but realised I wouldn't understand the explanations :blush: .


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:31 am 
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Getting back on topic - sorry! A first corner agreement is v odd.

I gather that Ferrari (during the Schumi years) had a 'last pit stop' agreement - whereby the driver in front would retain the lead, but first corner?!


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:22 pm 
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I'm not sure all the poeple saying they would not have made the deal remember all the whole situation.

The Mclaren was about a second faster that the competition so there was no danger from behind and no reason to risk going fast
In 1997 the Mclaren was fast and unreliable, it retired from the lead four times that I can think off so I can understand why they would not want to push hard in the first race
Coulthard had a much better reputation at starts (just watch the 97 season) and he would have thought even starting second he would have got the jump into the first corner.

So Yes I would have made the deal because at worst I would be guaranteed a second place in the first race in the tittle.

Now what I would not have done was give back the lead after Hakkinen lost it with a mishap.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:34 pm 
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An agreement that who's leading into the first corner stays ahead yes, to win from that no.

As for better starters, clutch control is a major factor as well as mapping.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 11:06 am 
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Me personally? No.

For me a race has a start, a middle and an end. Like a good movie or book.
Not just one turn.

I can see why they did it though. McLaren were genuinely back at the top. Completing that domination of the opening weekend could allow them breathe a bit, relax a little going to the next race in Brazil and play the game on an even footing for the rest of the season. They just wanted to get that first win in the bag without any drama to prove McLaren were back with a bang.

Nobody could have predicted the Hakkinen pit incident and I think in the interests of fairness they gave it back to the winner of the original agreement.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 3:03 pm 
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Was the impromptu pit lane Hakk's fault? I've heard that someone tapped into his radio (*cough* Ferrari *cough* ;) ) and instructed him to come in. I think it was the honourable thing to do for DC to let him past, I like to think I'd do the same.

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