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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:04 pm 
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I look at the 2013 frontteam line ups, an i must say im disappointed ferrari didnt replace massa, redbull didnt replace webber, when it comes to button im not so sure, is he really ready to bring it to alonso an vettel, after the way he gave up that podium at the last race...?thats why in my eyes he will never be in the top top group of racers...take the place from me, but i aint giving it to you...thats the kinda attitude the top drivers tend to have
webber and massa just seem like broken men to me i maybe a bit harsh but they seem to have them seats because there prepared to toe the line an not upset the apple cart, rather than the talent those cars deserve
All im saying is can you imagine the 2013 season with 4 5 6 drivers really have the hunger and tools to chase for the title


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:06 pm 
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Yes they all do

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:08 pm 
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At least for McLaren, they have no better alternative. Assuming they wanted to replace Button, the best they can do is a driver of similar calibre to Perez. Ferrari and RBR are probably in a similar situation. I certainly think Button, Massa and Webber are better than Perez at the moment.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:08 pm 
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Who could McLaren and Red Bull have brought in that would definitely be better than their current drivers? Both Webber and Button have shown that they are able to perform to the level of their supposedly-better team-mates and both work well within the team. Better to stick with the ones you can rely on to support the #1 than bring in an unknown quantity that may cost them a title.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:12 pm 
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Massa could have had no complaints if he was replaced for 2013. But in fairness, he has definately improved the last few months.

Button has done fine, and is the best McLaren can hope for just now.

Webber does fine as well, but im not sure why he is still at Red Bull as no matter what, he will never be number 1 there. in fact i do know why....its the best car.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:21 pm 
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The Massa of the last few races does, and JB and Mark definitely deserve their seats.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:21 pm 
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Button does, Webber & Massa dont

although i wouldn't argue with someone saying Webber does since its so borderline, i just think he's passed up too many chances to be a WDC, but he did develop the Red Bull cars for such a long time


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:24 pm 
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Webber and Massa will probably be out by 2014, while based on his current form I cannot see JB being at McLaren past the end of his current contract he really needs to hit the ground running in the early rounds in 2013 otherwise he could end up like DC when Kimi first came to McLaren.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:25 pm 
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kane2000 wrote:
when it comes to button im not so sure, is he really ready to bring it to alonso an vettel, after the way he gave up that podium at the last race...?
I didn't see Button give up anything, so enlighten me. What would you have done differently in Button's place?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:26 pm 
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[quote="SilverstoneRegular"]Yes they
elaborate please


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:27 pm 
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schumi7 wrote:
The Massa of the last few races does, and JB and Mark definitely deserve their seats.

elaborate please


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:30 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
kane2000 wrote:
when it comes to button im not so sure, is he really ready to bring it to alonso an vettel, after the way he gave up that podium at the last race...?
I didn't see Button give up anything, so enlighten me. What would you have done differently in Button's place?

squeezed the driver out not blatenly sorry about spelling but just to let driver think twice


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:33 pm 
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Button and Webber certainly deserve to be in top teams. Until about a month ago, I'd have said Massa should be fired, however he's turned his fortunes around a little, and is finally showing improvement. We can only hope it continues.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:35 pm 
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kane2000 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
kane2000 wrote:
when it comes to button im not so sure, is he really ready to bring it to alonso an vettel, after the way he gave up that podium at the last race...?
I didn't see Button give up anything, so enlighten me. What would you have done differently in Button's place?

squeezed the driver out not blatenly sorry about spelling but just to let driver think twice

Im just saying it how i see it alonso hamilton an vettel are not giving up a podium so easy im sorry and i feel everyteam prinicple would want a streak of nasty nest in the there no1 maybe nastyness is the wrong word but that mad will to win or if not that will not to be beaten...


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:35 pm 
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Good question and i have often comapred and wondered about these three myself.

Jenson Button: Yes. He is a former WDC and on that merit alone deserves a front line seat with any team. He is a better driver than what his career stats show. Not the best qualifier but more often than not compensates with his smooth and steady driving style. Very good with the lighter car and providing his car lasts the distance, probably the best finisher in F1.

Felipe Massa: Probably. He is unquestionably a very talented driver who nearly won the 2008 WDC. A nice guy and seems to retain his cool under pressure. He seems to have strangely lost confidence since returning to F1 after his injury in 2009. Whether it is the injury itself or the Alonso factor it is hard to tell; probably a bit of both. I want him to win a few more races and I think he can motivate himself to do so.

Mark Webber: Probably not. Webber is also a very good driver and his career stats just about reflect his talent. But I think he has a serious attitude problem that runs deeper than it appears on the surface. There is something lacking in his commitment unless he is fired-up, which is not often. I think he is not sure himself whether he should be driving or consider retirement and do something else.

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Last edited by Zekenwolf on Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:36 pm 
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kane2000 wrote:
SilverstoneRegular wrote:
Yes they
elaborate please


Can I ask who you're a fan of? (Just want to know what position this question comes from)

Massa deserves to keep his seat because the product of the Ferrari academy has jumped ship and gone to McLaren at the same time Massa actually drove like a racing driver again and got some good results (he's obviously treated at a number two in the team but has accepted it of late and knuckled down)

Webber deserves his seat because he actually looked the more likely Red Bull championship hopeful this year but sadly for him it's not worked out that way. If Red Bull think he's good enough for another contract he must be!

Button is the only driver to beat Lewis in the same machinery over a season (don't want to hear it was Lewis worst. Facts are facts).

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:40 pm 
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Zekenwolf wrote:
Good question and i have often comapred and wondered about these three myself.

Jenson Button: Yes. He is a former WDC and on that merit alone deserves a front line seat with any team. He is a better driver than what his career stats show. Not the best qualifier but more often than not compensates with his smooth and steady driving style. Very good with the lighter car and providing his car lasts the distance, probably the best finisher in F1.

Felipe Massa: Probably. He is unquestionably a very talented driver who nearly won the 2008 WDC. A nice guy and seems to retain his cool under pressure. He seems to have strangely lost confidence since returning to F1 after his injury in 2009. Whether it is the injury itself or the Alonso factor it is hard to tell; probably a bit of both. I want him to win a few more races and I think he can motivate himself to do so.

Mark Webber: Probably not. Webber is also a very good driver and his career stats just about reflect his talent. But I think he has a serious attitude problem that runs deeper than it appears on the surface. There is something lacking in his commitment unless he is fired-up, which is not often. I think he is not sure himself whether he should be driving or consider retirement and do something else.
thanks for looking at my question objectively, im not looking at rubbishing the drivers in question just to question there postions in teams...or am i doing this for my own selfish reasons...i want to see a great 2013


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:42 pm 
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SilverstoneRegular wrote:
kane2000 wrote:
SilverstoneRegular wrote:
Yes they
elaborate please


Can I ask who you're a fan of? (Just want to know what position this question comes from)

Massa deserves to keep his seat because the product of the Ferrari academy has jumped ship and gone to McLaren at the same time Massa actually drove like a racing driver again and got some good results (he's obviously treated at a number two in the team but has accepted it of late and knuckled down)

Webber deserves his seat because he actually looked the more likely Red Bull championship hopeful this year but sadly for him it's not worked out that way. If Red Bull think he's good enough for another contract he must be!

Button is the only driver to beat Lewis in the same machinery over a season (don't want to hear it was Lewis worst. Facts are facts).
lewis hamilton not a fanboy i feel alonso is the best pound for pound


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:47 pm 
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kane2000 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
kane2000 wrote:
when it comes to button im not so sure, is he really ready to bring it to alonso an vettel, after the way he gave up that podium at the last race...?
I didn't see Button give up anything, so enlighten me. What would you have done differently in Button's place?

squeezed the driver out not blatenly sorry about spelling but just to let driver think twice

Squeezing a driver out is against the rules. When somebody is alongside, you have to leave him the space to complete the corner. Schumacher's era is over, remember?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:59 pm 
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kane2000 wrote:
SilverstoneRegular wrote:
kane2000 wrote:
SilverstoneRegular wrote:
Yes they
elaborate please


Can I ask who you're a fan of? (Just want to know what position this question comes from)

Massa deserves to keep his seat because the product of the Ferrari academy has jumped ship and gone to McLaren at the same time Massa actually drove like a racing driver again and got some good results (he's obviously treated at a number two in the team but has accepted it of late and knuckled down)

Webber deserves his seat because he actually looked the more likely Red Bull championship hopeful this year but sadly for him it's not worked out that way. If Red Bull think he's good enough for another contract he must be!

Button is the only driver to beat Lewis in the same machinery over a season (don't want to hear it was Lewis worst. Facts are facts).
lewis hamilton not a fanboy i feel alonso is the best pound for pound
silverstone i must ask you if you read the oringal question...have the 1st 2 become spent bolts jus happly be bridesmaids and is JB ready to lead the line for a team as large as maclaren


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:59 pm 
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kane2000 wrote:
SilverstoneRegular wrote:
kane2000 wrote:
SilverstoneRegular wrote:
Yes they
elaborate please


Can I ask who you're a fan of? (Just want to know what position this question comes from)

Massa deserves to keep his seat because the product of the Ferrari academy has jumped ship and gone to McLaren at the same time Massa actually drove like a racing driver again and got some good results (he's obviously treated at a number two in the team but has accepted it of late and knuckled down)

Webber deserves his seat because he actually looked the more likely Red Bull championship hopeful this year but sadly for him it's not worked out that way. If Red Bull think he's good enough for another contract he must be!

Button is the only driver to beat Lewis in the same machinery over a season (don't want to hear it was Lewis worst. Facts are facts).
lewis hamilton not a fanboy i feel alonso is the best pound for pound


Do you feel Lewis deserves one of those seats over these drivers?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:02 pm 
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I don't understand how people thought Button gave that place up? That's a Redbull, clearly once again the class of the field now, on fresh option tyres... No one would have held him off in the same conditions.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:02 pm 
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Button: Combined with the departure of Hamilton McLaren would need to find 2 drivers to replace them not to mention that they needed a top tier driver in their lineup so no better choise than Button.
Massa: He clearly accepted the No2 role and he is probably the best No2 Ferrari can find so he deserves his seat as well.
Webber: He clearly deserves his seat. The only driver available better than him was Kimi and it looks like in 2014 he will replace them at RBR.

So yes all 3 drivers deserve their seats.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:06 pm 
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Button does, even though he has been woeful in 2012, he was very, very good in 2011. Needs to recapture his form next year though, more pressure than ever with Lewis gone and an expectancy that he will easily handle his team-mate.

Webber is inconsistent but don't see any better options

Massa has started to pick his form up, he's closer to Alonso than ever

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:08 pm 
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Zekenwolf wrote:

Jenson Button: Yes. He is a former WDC and on that merit alone deserves a front line seat with any team.


Massa and Barrichello and Webber could all very easily be former WDCs. In terms of driver calibre, logical thought leads me to query how much they actually should be considered different from someone who won the WDC.

It's not magic. It's adding up points. Massa would even have been WDC in a different points system.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:12 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
kane2000 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
kane2000 wrote:
when it comes to button im not so sure, is he really ready to bring it to alonso an vettel, after the way he gave up that podium at the last race...?
I didn't see Button give up anything, so enlighten me. What would you have done differently in Button's place?

squeezed the driver out not blatenly sorry about spelling but just to let driver think twice

Squeezing a driver out is against the rules. When somebody is alongside, you have to leave him the space to complete the corner. Schumacher's era is over, remember?
i know this...so is 1 move alone the straights but drivers still push it...am i the only 1 thats sees this the very very top drivers have a little nasty ness in them


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:14 pm 
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kane2000 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
kane2000 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
kane2000 wrote:
when it comes to button im not so sure, is he really ready to bring it to alonso an vettel, after the way he gave up that podium at the last race...?
I didn't see Button give up anything, so enlighten me. What would you have done differently in Button's place?

squeezed the driver out not blatenly sorry about spelling but just to let driver think twice

Squeezing a driver out is against the rules. When somebody is alongside, you have to leave him the space to complete the corner. Schumacher's era is over, remember?
i know this...so is 1 move alone the straights but drivers still push it...am i the only 1 thats sees this the very very top drivers have a little nasty ness in them


Yeah some of them do and it gets them knocked out of races, webber / Alonso and Button are fair racers and probably only ask the same in return

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:19 pm 
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SilverstoneRegular wrote:
kane2000 wrote:
SilverstoneRegular wrote:
kane2000 wrote:
SilverstoneRegular wrote:
Yes they
elaborate please


Can I ask who you're a fan of? (Just want to know what position this question comes from)

Massa deserves to keep his seat because the product of the Ferrari academy has jumped ship and gone to McLaren at the same time Massa actually drove like a racing driver again and got some good results (he's obviously treated at a number two in the team but has accepted it of late and knuckled down)

Webber deserves his seat because he actually looked the more likely Red Bull championship hopeful this year but sadly for him it's not worked out that way. If Red Bull think he's good enough for another contract he must be!

Button is the only driver to beat Lewis in the same machinery over a season (don't want to hear it was Lewis worst. Facts are facts).
lewis hamilton not a fanboy i feel alonso is the best pound for pound
deserve yes going to get no but im trying to leave hamilton out of this blog just would of liked to of seen the teams in question be a bit adventurious with there driver line up...di resta...raikkonen...maldonado...hulkenberg maybe a few names

Do you feel Lewis deserves one of those seats over these drivers?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:27 pm 
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@Kane2000

These guys weren't considered as better than what the teams already got so why change?

In F1Racing magazine it says that initial contact between Lewis and Merc happened in the spring time, now the whole paddock would've caught wind of this so why do you think Red Bull or Ferrari didn't sign Lewis?

I think as a racing driver Lewis is of the level of Alonso and Vettel but as F1 is a team sport I don't think they could take the chance on him updating the team harmony, so they stayed with what is working for them.

That is why Webber and Massa are staying with their respective teams

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:36 pm 
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SilverstoneRegular wrote:
@Kane2000

These guys weren't considered as better than what the teams already got so why change?

In F1Racing magazine it says that initial contact between Lewis and Merc happened in the spring time, now the whole paddock would've caught wind of this so why do you think Red Bull or Ferrari didn't sign Lewis?

I think as a racing driver Lewis is of the level of Alonso and Vettel but as F1 is a team sport I don't think they could take the chance on him updating the team harmony, so they stayed with what is working for them.

That is why Webber and Massa are staying with their respective teams

Forget lewis take himout of the equation but for my own selfish reasons just wish teams could of been a bit more adventuious


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:38 pm 
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Yes they do, however I think they are all nearing the end of their careers (in a top team at least). Perez going to McLaren is just the beginning.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:34 pm 
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Button yes - only gonna be 1 or 2 more seasons though before retirement beckons or he is moved on

Massa - No, not by a long shot.


Webber - No, I think he has maximised his potential at a championship and any of the other young drivers could bring in the same points for the wcc.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:48 pm 
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Button - Absolutely. One bad year doesn't make a bad driver. Button proved in 2004, 2009 and 2011 that he is capable of leading a front running team, even if he has a couple major weaknesses and is perhaps not quite at the same level as Alonso/Vettel/Hamilton.

Webber - At his best, like he was earlier this season, yes. Even in recent races he has proven to be a solid number 2. IMO, Webber hasn't lived up to his potential, he seems very much like a form driver but he can't put it all together to fight for a WDC. Obviously, it's very difficult to beat Vettel in the same car, but he had basically an open goal from a championship perspective in 2010 and he couldn't seal the deal.

Massa - Based on his form from Monza-India, yes. Otherwise no, because his performances were extremely inconsistent. For every good weekend (i.e Silverstone/Monaco) he'd seem to have two bad ones, and that is unacceptable for a driver who should be helping take points away from Alonso's rivals and helping Ferrari fight for the WCC.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:57 pm 
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Webber - As much as you want to say he is there to support SV, thats just not the case. He was ahead of SV for a good portion of the year. He has done a good job this year but his starts have cost him many places and likely a shot at the championship. To replace him you would have to find someone who can drive the RBR better than him. So we would need someone who is extremely fast at qualifying ... I see no better alternatives. The car is built for a very good qualifier and I dont see any better than Mark and Seb available.

Button - Who are you going to replace him with? I can't think of many people who would do a better job that are available.

Massa - I would agree. I love Massa, but he does not have the pace to be in that car. he has been outscored by % of points compared to his teammate worse than any other driver this year. With all of McLarens issues this year Ferrari should be well ahead of them in the WCC but their not because of Massa. I think you could find a few drivers on the grid that could take his place and score more points.



If you say they should be replaced you should be able to say with who ... the bottom line is you would want to replace them with someone who can do better and would be available (for example you cant say LH could replace Webber because its just not going to happen, he has a long term contract already)


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:40 pm 
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Button? Unquestionably. A World Champion in his own right, when you then factor in that McLaren lost Hamilton and are replacing him with a younger, undoubtedly talented but not hugely experienced driver, to ditch Jenson as well would've been absurd. Even if JB isn't at the same level as Ferrari/Red Bull's lead drivers, he's better than any other option.

Webber? Yes, but perhaps not as resoundingly as JB. He has his fair share of bad luck, and has races where he just disappears, but is also still able to show a turn of pace and win races. Assuming that Red Bull would promote from within, it's very difficult to argue that Buemi, JEV, Ricciardo or da Costa are better options right now. At the end of next season, when Webber might retire anyway, one of the Toro Rosso drivers may be ready. But today? Hard to justify any over Webber. Unless they were to go for somebody such as Kimi, who has some loose ties to Red Bull (rally sponsorship?) and who I wouldn't be shocked to see make that jump for 2014.

Massa? Probably the least deserving of the three, but he has improved a lot in the second half of the season. Enough to just about justify keeping him around in 2013, and then reevaluating again towards the end of the season, when there are going to be plenty of candidates.

I'd be surprised if more than one of the three (Button) is still with their current teams in 2014, but for 2013, I can completely understand the logic behind all three of them remaining where they are.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:57 pm 
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kane2000 wrote:
I look at the 2013 frontteam line ups, an i must say im disappointed ferrari didnt replace massa, redbull didnt replace webber, when it comes to button im not so sure, is he really ready to bring it to alonso an vettel, after the way he gave up that podium at the last race...?thats why in my eyes he will never be in the top top group of racers...take the place from me, but i aint giving it to you...thats the kinda attitude the top drivers tend to have
webber and massa just seem like broken men to me i maybe a bit harsh but they seem to have them seats because there prepared to toe the line an not upset the apple cart, rather than the talent those cars deserve
All im saying is can you imagine the 2013 season with 4 5 6 drivers really have the hunger and tools to chase for the title


Considering he had Vettel behind him with a car geared up for overtaking, the double DRS system, on fresher and faster tyres I was actually surprised he managed to hold him back for as long as he did.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:02 pm 
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Dam_Noir wrote:
kane2000 wrote:
I look at the 2013 frontteam line ups, an i must say im disappointed ferrari didnt replace massa, redbull didnt replace webber, when it comes to button im not so sure, is he really ready to bring it to alonso an vettel, after the way he gave up that podium at the last race...?thats why in my eyes he will never be in the top top group of racers...take the place from me, but i aint giving it to you...thats the kinda attitude the top drivers tend to have
webber and massa just seem like broken men to me i maybe a bit harsh but they seem to have them seats because there prepared to toe the line an not upset the apple cart, rather than the talent those cars deserve
All im saying is can you imagine the 2013 season with 4 5 6 drivers really have the hunger and tools to chase for the title


Considering he had Vettel behind him with a car geared up for overtaking, the double DRS system, on fresher and faster tyres I was actually surprised he managed to hold him back for as long as he did.


Yeah, bloody Jenson Button he's bloody useless!

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:05 pm 
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SilverstoneRegular wrote:
Dam_Noir wrote:
Considering he had Vettel behind him with a car geared up for overtaking, the double DRS system, on fresher and faster tyres I was actually surprised he managed to hold him back for as long as he did.


Yeah, bloody Jenson Button he's bloody useless!


Tell me about it, my nan could beat him and she never even learned to drive!

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:07 pm 
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Dam_Noir wrote:
SilverstoneRegular wrote:
Dam_Noir wrote:
Considering he had Vettel behind him with a car geared up for overtaking, the double DRS system, on fresher and faster tyres I was actually surprised he managed to hold him back for as long as he did.


Yeah, bloody Jenson Button he's bloody useless!


Tell me about it, my nan could beat him and she never even learned to drive!


Well if she could reach the peddles she'll have him beaten!

Seriously was it just a dig buried deep into the paragraph for people to enjoy?!

It does make me wonder if the posters of rubbish like that actually understand the sport at all

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:14 pm 
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SilverstoneRegular wrote:
Dam_Noir wrote:
SilverstoneRegular wrote:
Dam_Noir wrote:
Considering he had Vettel behind him with a car geared up for overtaking, the double DRS system, on fresher and faster tyres I was actually surprised he managed to hold him back for as long as he did.


Yeah, bloody Jenson Button he's bloody useless!


Tell me about it, my nan could beat him and she never even learned to drive!


Well if she could reach the peddles she'll have him beaten!



This is going WAAAY OT but you just reminded me of a day at the rally school I worked at. one of the instructors booked a day for his Gran for her Birthday. We had to find a cushion to put behind her so she could reach the pedals. :lol:

some of the other punters were giving the old roll the eyes look when she stalled on the first run. weren't laughing so much when she set the fastest time on the timed runs :lol: :lol: :lol:

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