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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:53 am 
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With the strong rumours spreading throughout the paddock about their fund had been dried up and some silly reliabilities issues keep popping out from their cars, we saw the incidents with Nico in Abu Dhabi....

Well, it would be nice for us to think that they had enough budget to repair their car and ready for the remaining races, wouldn't it still too risky for their drivers as well as those cars that race around them??

Should FIA look into this??


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:16 am 
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things break in motorsports, shoudl we look into Renault engines and this faulty alternator? after all having cars suddenly losing power is dangerous..

I really wish people would stop picking on the new teams, Abu Dhabi was the first time any failure has really caused a major incident, and it was a fluke of one as well, wrong place wrong time etc


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:18 am 
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What?

I think you need to quit reading into it so deeply. They will finish ou the year and they are no more a danger because of a monitory deficit. The cars and components are built to specific codes that meet safety standards set by the FIA and aside from their lack of pace, they have done themselves proud. Not as good as they imagined it could be but they are the smallest team in the sport with the least amount of funds and they have held their chins high and pressed forward and have actually managed to improve in their 3 years to date.

I don't see how anyone can chime in and tell them they can't enter races they are prepared for.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:30 am 
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If HRT qualify within 107% then they're safe enough to race

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:43 am 
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It is a joke. They should not be allowed to race.
The Brakes don't work ! Imagine if a fatality had occured during that last one with nico over Karthikeyan.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:52 am 
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Maky wrote:
It is a joke. They should not be allowed to race.
The Brakes don't work ! Imagine if a fatality had occured during that last one with nico over Karthikeyan.

Brakes have failed on many cars over the years, even the ones on the front of the grid 8O
Why are people always having a go at HRT? they qualify for each race therefore they have earned their place on the grid, they're doing the best they can with such little resources at their hands and people on here treat them like they're taking the gherkin.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:11 am 
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Does anyone remember the spectacular brake and suspension failure on Torro Roso? Or mercedes, or suspension failure on so many cars over last 3 years?
When it was really a safety issue, they have retired their cars on their own. When they continue racing, they are fine. Failures are part of the game. More so for smaller teams which do not have resources and facilities of top teams. And top teams have ran into mechanical issues and spectacular or sudden failures more this year than HRT have ran into.
Give them a break, they have done what anyone in their position can do. They have survived this year which was expected to be their worst in last 3 years without too much fuzz. They never really found themselves in trouble of being disqualified this year. That is progress over what we saw over last 2 years.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:12 am 
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the wheel detach itself on Spa too.............


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 8:23 am 
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NvrDieYoung wrote:
the wheel detach itself on Spa too.............


That was finger trouble, and has happened to McLaren and Mercedes, just to start with, in recent years; Remember Silverstone last year, or Schumacher at China this year?

It can happen to anyone...


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 8:34 am 
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It seems some people are here only to bash anything.

Of course HRT should race, they deserve it. Too bad they have to sell their team.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 8:57 am 
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what if hrt failed in front of vettel or alonso and ruined chances of either of them of the championship . but problem is FIA scrutineers cant look at the car and say this is not reliable enough , as long as all the parts are there.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:27 am 
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RebellionLola wrote:
what if hrt failed in front of vettel or alonso and ruined chances of either of them of the championship . but problem is FIA scrutineers cant look at the car and say this is not reliable enough , as long as all the parts are there.



Yes they can, if they think the car is dangerous it can be scrutinised pre-event and the team forced to make changes or be DSQ'd. They don't just send cars out as long as they have all the bits.

As for things like brakes. I remember a certain Multiple WDC having his legs broke due to faulty brakes. No one has been hurt in an HRT so should Ferrari been banned?

Wheels? How often have we seen Merc, I can think of three times. Rosberg in the pit where the wheel went into the Williams(?) mechanics. Schui in Quali in a race, can't mind which one and Schui in China.

Hydraulic failures. McLaren on JB a year or two ago, most of the new teams when they were all running X-Trac gear which was peaky and probably what HRT are still running.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:28 am 
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Horrible thread. All McLarens, Ferraris, Red Bull had more serious issues, yet people pick poor HRT team. Until this year, they were never last in standings. Unbelievable.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:33 am 
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Maky wrote:
It is a joke. They should not be allowed to race.
The Brakes don't work ! Imagine if a fatality had occured during that last one with nico over Karthikeyan.


Then it would have been Nico's fault, considering he went up the back of Karthikeyan.

HRT aren't fast. In comparison to the rest of the field, they're darn slow in fact. But their cars are not dangerous. We've got more issues to worry about with other drivers making mistakes than worrying about if a single component breaks on the F112 - like it could on any other car.

Buemi's front two tyres came off his car under braking in China last year - how do we know there isn't some inherent design flaw in the Toro Rosso cars? Better ban them, too.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:44 am 
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It's hardly picking on them to ask whether cars running in close proximity at 200mph have a responsibility not to fall apart, if at all possible.

Surprised by some of the responses here. HRT have admited they're running parts that would have been changed by now if they had the resources. They're being compared to Andrea Moda and journalists are laying bets as to how they'll avoid taking part in the race whilst meeting their legal obligations to sponsors and CVC. We know their 'documents' partner Kyocara are refusing to provide their normal services due to unpaid bills. It's only sensible to ask whether suppliers of key components are doing the same. Are they forced to use past-it brake parts for example? Even if they have new brakes, do we know the shipping company that's holding on to unspecified parts in lieu of payment hasn't got them?

Personally I tend to be quite irresponsible, I don't have a problem with them racing, but that's just my view. I can well see why we should be asking whether they have the resources to be safe on track and in the pits.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:53 am 
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Toby. wrote:
Maky wrote:
It is a joke. They should not be allowed to race.
The Brakes don't work ! Imagine if a fatality had occured during that last one with nico over Karthikeyan.


Then it would have been Nico's fault, considering he went up the back of Karthikeyan.

HRT aren't fast. In comparison to the rest of the field, they're darn slow in fact. But their cars are not dangerous. We've got more issues to worry about with other drivers making mistakes than worrying about if a single component breaks on the F112 - like it could on any other car.

Buemi's front two tyres came off his car under braking in China last year - how do we know there isn't some inherent design flaw in the Toro Rosso cars? Better ban them, too.

That's missing the point.

We accept racing is dangerous but we try to make it safer where possible. If brakes fail due to accident damage, a manufacturing flaw or even a design flaw... it's motorsport, that's what happens and we accept it. If the brakes fail whilst having to do twice the work they were designed for because the team can't afford new ones, it's unacceptable. That's the question being asked: do HRT have the resources to compete safely? I don't know, I don't see how any of us can. But if you have faith in the FIA keep on top of the issue then fair enough, you think they should race (as I do). But to see the potential for danger from a skint team as no worse than a well resourced team seems optimistic.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:06 pm 
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The incident with Rosberg was simply terrible luck. If it had happened at pretty much any other place on the track, Nico could have been able to see and react to it. He was cornering with limited vision of the HRT and it was a full speed (or at least high speed) corner. imo, that seemed like it could have reasonably happened to anyone.

As for the brake failures. Heikki had a serious one in McLaren at (I think) Barcelona in (I think) 2009. Vettel had serious issues at (I think) Barcelona in 2010 or 2011, where the team were advising him to park it and he didn't and he salvaged a decent points position. Toro Rosso had their exploding clown car incident. They happen. It's bad news, but one of those things.

And Lotus GP were allowed to race despite attempts to barbeque Quick Nick of 2 occasions of the last year.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:12 pm 
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RebellionLola wrote:
what if hrt failed in front of vettel or alonso and ruined chances of either of them of the championship .

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:25 pm 
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Journos on Twitter are saying HRT engineers are worried their drivers will be taking to the track in unsafe cars. Admitedly rather vague.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:27 pm 
NvrDieYoung wrote:
With the strong rumours spreading throughout the paddock about their fund had been dried up and some silly reliabilities issues keep popping out from their cars, we saw the incidents with Nico in Abu Dhabi....

Well, it would be nice for us to think that they had enough budget to repair their car and ready for the remaining races, wouldn't it still too risky for their drivers as well as those cars that race around them??

Should FIA look into this??


That is kicking a man when he's down. Parts fail everywhere. Schumacher's DRS failed, let's ban Mercedes. A wheel nut fell off a McLaren, let's ban that team. The suspension on Massa's car broke, let's ban Ferrari. The alternator on a Red Bull failed twice, let's ban them.. twice. geeeeesh

oh oh oh. don't forget that Hamilton in his McLaren also slowed down, and even retired in Abu Dhabi, let's give them the same treatment as HRT.

really, really, really, was the failure of the brakes on the HRT a true problem? All that happened was that the car slowed down, and if Rosberg had not plowed into the HRT in such dramatic fashion, it would have been an unseen and relatively unknown retirement with no accident or torn-up cars.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:44 pm 
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Maky wrote:
It is a joke. They should not be allowed to race.
The Brakes don't work ! Imagine if a fatality had occured during that last one with nico over Karthikeyan.


If the brakes aren't working why would the car slow down.

Please engage brain! It was a power steering problem Karthikeyan backed off, and Rosberg was flying up to the back of him trying to catch up to the pack.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:53 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
NvrDieYoung wrote:
With the strong rumours spreading throughout the paddock about their fund had been dried up and some silly reliabilities issues keep popping out from their cars, we saw the incidents with Nico in Abu Dhabi....

Well, it would be nice for us to think that they had enough budget to repair their car and ready for the remaining races, wouldn't it still too risky for their drivers as well as those cars that race around them??

Should FIA look into this??


That is kicking a man when he's down. Parts fail everywhere. Schumacher's DRS failed, let's ban Mercedes. A wheel nut fell off a McLaren, let's ban that team. The suspension on Massa's car broke, let's ban Ferrari. The alternator on a Red Bull failed twice, let's ban them.. twice. geeeeesh

oh oh oh. don't forget that Hamilton in his McLaren also slowed down, and even retired in Abu Dhabi, let's give them the same treatment as HRT.

really, really, really, was the failure of the brakes on the HRT a true problem? All that happened was that the car slowed down, and if Rosberg had not plowed into the HRT in such dramatic fashion, it would have been an unseen and relatively unknown retirement with no accident or torn-up cars.

Just because there are dangers F1 can't avoid it doesn't mean avoidable dangers should be ignored. Components will break sometimes, that doesn't mean you should use one you suspect of being faulty. I don't get why so many are using this argument.

The Karthikeyan/Rosberg crash happened because a hydraulics seal in the steering mechanism gave way. If the team can't afford to replace components such as hydraulics seals, which they admit is the case, it's fair enough to ask whether they should be on track.

Fortunately the FIA scrutineers seem to think so and are apparently keeping a close eye on the team.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 3:13 pm 
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Maky wrote:
It is a joke. They should not be allowed to race.
The Brakes don't work ! Imagine if a fatality had occured during that last one with nico over Karthikeyan.

Nuff said:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6c2g4 ... KUDI0IQhKM
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xh4tf6 ... KUAJkIQhKM

Hamilton at the Nurburgring experiences a failure on his right front in 2007. Watching the 2nd video you will see Heikki experience an identical failure the following year in 2008. Both were big accidents with massive shunts and after the engine cuts off in Lewis' video you can hear him wincing in pain, possibly a little shock mixed in with it as well. It was found that the Enkei Wheels experienced structural failures due to manufacturing and finishing processes which caused uneven loading, warping the wheels to the point of failure. Why is this important to know? Because just as wheels are purchased from outside sources, so too are the brake systems on the cars and just like with anything else, they are just another one of the thousands of components susceptible to failure and all of the teams have an equal chance to experience such issues.

So long as they comply with the 107% rule you HRT have every right to be on the grid and take part in the race.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 4:29 pm 
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Balibari wrote:
Toby. wrote:
Maky wrote:
It is a joke. They should not be allowed to race.
The Brakes don't work ! Imagine if a fatality had occured during that last one with nico over Karthikeyan.


Then it would have been Nico's fault, considering he went up the back of Karthikeyan.

HRT aren't fast. In comparison to the rest of the field, they're darn slow in fact. But their cars are not dangerous. We've got more issues to worry about with other drivers making mistakes than worrying about if a single component breaks on the F112 - like it could on any other car.

Buemi's front two tyres came off his car under braking in China last year - how do we know there isn't some inherent design flaw in the Toro Rosso cars? Better ban them, too.

That's missing the point.

We accept racing is dangerous but we try to make it safer where possible. If brakes fail due to accident damage, a manufacturing flaw or even a design flaw... it's motorsport, that's what happens and we accept it. If the brakes fail whilst having to do twice the work they were designed for because the team can't afford new ones, it's unacceptable. That's the question being asked: do HRT have the resources to compete safely? I don't know, I don't see how any of us can. But if you have faith in the FIA keep on top of the issue then fair enough, you think they should race (as I do). But to see the potential for danger from a skint team as no worse than a well resourced team seems optimistic.


I totally agree with your argumentation and your point of view but I also agree with other posters that there are some people that just do not give credit where credit is due and realize that HRT is a team with very limited resources and it is my opinion that they did an awesome job. Certainly much better job then anybody of those people who criticize them for simply being at the back of the field. It is just criticizing for the sake of and only because they are perceived as being bad.

I have my doubts that the OP knew anything about what you mentioned in your last two posts related which is why people react to him/her just criticizing for a failure that could happen to anybody on the grid.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:29 pm 
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HRT have as much of a right to be on the grid as anyone else. McLaren have had plenty of mechanical failures this year, so should we throw them out too???


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:29 am 
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Schumacher's brakes failed in 1999 when he broke his leg. Should Ferrari have been suspended from racing?

Things fail on F1 cars and while the FIA should continue to scrutinise teams, there is no reason to give HRT special treatment here. Top teams can be guilty of pushing the envelope too far and building parts that subsequently fail, at a risk to either their driver or that of another team. I'm thinking (theoretically, not factually) of Senna at Williams (depends how you think the crash was caused), or, more recently, when a piece of Barrichello's suspension hit Massa at Hungary in 2009.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:46 am 
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Eva09 wrote:
Maky wrote:
It is a joke. They should not be allowed to race.
The Brakes don't work ! Imagine if a fatality had occured during that last one with nico over Karthikeyan.


If the brakes aren't working why would the car slow down.

Please engage brain! It was a power steering problem Karthikeyan backed off, and Rosberg was flying up to the back of him trying to catch up to the pack.

Fair enough...

specdecible wrote:
Maky wrote:
It is a joke. They should not be allowed to race.
The Brakes don't work ! Imagine if a fatality had occured during that last one with nico over Karthikeyan.

Brakes have failed on many cars over the years, even the ones on the front of the grid 8O
Why are people always having a go at HRT? they qualify for each race therefore they have earned their place on the grid, they're doing the best they can with such little resources at their hands and people on here treat them like they're taking the gherkin.


the incubus wrote:
Maky wrote:
It is a joke. They should not be allowed to race.
The Brakes don't work ! Imagine if a fatality had occured during that last one with nico over Karthikeyan.

Nuff said:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6c2g4 ... KUDI0IQhKM
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xh4tf6 ... KUAJkIQhKM

Hamilton at the Nurburgring experiences a failure on his right front in 2007. Watching the 2nd video you will see Heikki experience an identical failure the following year in 2008. Both were big accidents with massive shunts and after the engine cuts off in Lewis' video you can hear him wincing in pain, possibly a little shock mixed in with it as well. It was found that the Enkei Wheels experienced structural failures due to manufacturing and finishing processes which caused uneven loading, warping the wheels to the point of failure. Why is this important to know? Because just as wheels are purchased from outside sources, so too are the brake systems on the cars and just like with anything else, they are just another one of the thousands of components susceptible to failure and all of the teams have an equal chance to experience such issues.

So long as they comply with the 107% rule you HRT have every right to be on the grid and take part in the race.


I'm not saying HRT are the only ones...
I have said what I've said under the impression that they were using old worn out parts(brakes perhaps steering column now?) because they couldn't afford new parts as a result of shortage of funds. If this is not true then disregard.
Also, I am simply angerd at HRT because I feel somehow this team was made to turn a profit rather than real racing and are now putting the drivers at risk because they aren't available to afford racing in F1 because of limited resources ?


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:48 am 
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To those saying there's no difference between an unforeseeable component failure, and one you know could happen due to that component being damaged or fatigued, do you think there should be a specific standard or should we trust the teams not to run a component they think excessively likely to fail? With all that's at stake for an under-resourced F1 team I don't think I could be that confident in them.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:02 am 
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Johnston wrote:
RebellionLola wrote:
what if hrt failed in front of vettel or alonso and ruined chances of either of them of the championship . but problem is FIA scrutineers cant look at the car and say this is not reliable enough , as long as all the parts are there.



Yes they can, if they think the car is dangerous it can be scrutinised pre-event and the team forced to make changes or be DSQ'd. They don't just send cars out as long as they have all the bits.

As for things like brakes. I remember a certain Multiple WDC having his legs broke due to faulty brakes. No one has been hurt in an HRT so should Ferrari been banned?

Wheels? How often have we seen Merc, I can think of three times. Rosberg in the pit where the wheel went into the Williams(?) mechanics. Schui in Quali in a race, can't mind which one and Schui in China.

Hydraulic failures. McLaren on JB a year or two ago, most of the new teams when they were all running X-Trac gear which was peaky and probably what HRT are still running.


After massa accident in 2010, FIA reinspected button's car.. he had to stay longer in pits while quali had resumed... so FIA does check cars if they are safe or not!!!! The rosberg accident was majorly coz of the location.....

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:43 am 
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Balibari wrote:
To those saying there's no difference between an unforeseeable component failure, and one you know could happen due to that component being damaged or fatigued, do you think there should be a specific standard or should we trust the teams not to run a component they think excessively likely to fail? With all that's at stake for an under-resourced F1 team I don't think I could be that confident in them.


There are standards already in place for that.
No team is allowed to use fatigued components (those which go through wear and tear ). If any team is found to be doing this on puspose, FIA can take very strict action against them.
Same question was asked when people wondered if HRT could be cutting corners by using old parts in old forums. There was thread regarding that. I had dug up the link that explained explicit regulations and security measures that are in place to avoid precisely this. Will post it here when and if I find that link again.
But no team can cut corners like that in modern F1.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 2:29 pm 
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As well, when it comes to hydraulics the seals, hosing and plumbing can all look perfect upon inspection while internally there might be corrosion and microscopic fractures that can't be identified and fail only during normal operation. I can understand if an eyelet in a suspension arm is found to have a fracture and the team opting to do a repair rather than replacing it with a whole new component as being serious no-no, but we all know HRT wouldn't do that.

funkymonkey's info is absolutely correct.

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