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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:03 pm 
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gregwil wrote:
beanchimp wrote:
Also a lot of you are forgetting that RB would have done exactly the same in the same situation
Absolute rubbish, the only person who would ever stoop to this level is Alonso.

Haha yes he is the master of puppets at Ferrari! Good one.

He alone made this choice and Ferrari had to make sure to fulfil his wishes. Evil genius.

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Last edited by mcdo on Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:04 pm 
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I don't think RBR would have Webber crash to give a Vettel a win either :)

neither that Vettel announces he is proud of that win....


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:04 pm 
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see vettel fans this is what it feels like to twist the rules in your favor all the time, to cheat and yet not get caught :D


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:05 pm 
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RunningMan wrote:
gregwil wrote:
beanchimp wrote:
Also a lot of you are forgetting that RB would have done exactly the same in the same situation
Absolute rubbish, the only person who would ever stoop to this level is Alonso.


LOL.

So it's no longer Ferrari but just pure and simply Alonso? I hate to break this to you, but Alonso is just an employee of Ferrari, he doesn't run it, he doesn't have that kind of power.

But if that gets in the way of your Alonso bashing feel free to ignore it.


Yeah right! Alonso just an employee. This kind of thing just follows him around. From Renault, to McLaren (Hungary), back to Renault (Piquet Singapore) to Ferrari (Filipe is faster than you, and the 5 place grid drop).


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:05 pm 
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F1Thomas wrote:
WJF1 wrote:
If there isn't nothing wrong in gearbox this should be investigated by FIA and if that is really just fake bumb for getting Alonso to clean side = DQ to Ferrari in this race. Nothing more than unsportsmanship behaviour. Teams should keep it clean and not try to affect race results by this way (because it's illegal, team orders are ok but this isn't that, it's directly affecting race results before race and it's illegal, clever but illegal).

If there is something wrong in Massa gearbox (highly doubt it tho) then it's ok. More clever would be getting massa starting from pitlane because start will be mayhem where he is now.


This.


Okay, if nothing is wrong with the gearbox, FIA doesn't allow Ferrari to switch. If gearbox fails in the race for whatever reason, can Ferrari sue FIA?

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:05 pm 
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Not a Ferrari/Alonso/Red Bull/Vettel fan. Not in the slightest. But I'd be concerned if any team didn't do this. If the rules allow it, which they currently do, then it has to be done.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:06 pm 
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RunningMan wrote:
gregwil wrote:
beanchimp wrote:
Also a lot of you are forgetting that RB would have done exactly the same in the same situation
Absolute rubbish, the only person who would ever stoop to this level is Alonso.


LOL.

So it's no longer Ferrari but just pure and simply Alonso? I hate to break this to you, but Alonso is just an employee of Ferrari, he doesn't run it, he doesn't have that kind of power.

But if that gets in the way of your Alonso bashing feel free to ignore it.
It is all Alonso, look at what happened around him in Renault or in McLaren or right throughout his career. I am not against team orders but he makes a mockery of them. :thumbdown:

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:06 pm 
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funkymonkey wrote:
Why would RBR risk move Alonso even closer to Vettel regardless the dirty side.
I have no problem with this at all. Teams take advantage of rules all the time. Last race I thought RBR will not be allowed to change gear ratios. I was proved wrong. This age there is a mention in rules about specifics about changing ratios.
Now Ferrari has done this when the is nothing in rules. Just like the was nothing in rules about the now illegal parts that Redbull raced this year.

Not to mention now everyone except Grosjean will be starting on the side where they actually qualified on merit. Alonso was 9th. He moved to bad side due to Grosjeans penalty.

If this prompts rule change, good. But as I said before, or would have been stupid of Ferrari not to do this when so much is on the line.


I dunno - but if they really do think the dirty side is THAT bad that he will lose places - maybe they think it worth the risk?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:07 pm 
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WJF1 wrote:
How people are even comparing last race to this fiasco? Vettel didn't gain nothing, lost a lot. Alonso might gain in start a lot from clean side. Have to wait what Red Bulls might do. Imagine when Webber takes +5 grid penalty, takes Alonso out in first corner = war in F1. But then again Hamilton, supporter of Alonso might also want to help alonso and takes +5 grid penalty.



So last race Red Bull taking Vettles car out of Parc Ferme and changing the gear ratios (5 place grid penalty), in order to increase his top speed. But because he was already starting from pit lane he couldn't be moved back was not done to give Vettel an advantage?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:08 pm 
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What shocks me about this entire thing is the amount of people that appear to be shocked.

How long have you guys been watching F1? This is run of the mill stuff.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:08 pm 
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gregwil wrote:
RunningMan wrote:
gregwil wrote:
beanchimp wrote:
Also a lot of you are forgetting that RB would have done exactly the same in the same situation
Absolute rubbish, the only person who would ever stoop to this level is Alonso.


LOL.

So it's no longer Ferrari but just pure and simply Alonso? I hate to break this to you, but Alonso is just an employee of Ferrari, he doesn't run it, he doesn't have that kind of power.

But if that gets in the way of your Alonso bashing feel free to ignore it.
It is all Alonso, look at what happened around him in Renault or in McLaren or right throughout his career. I am not against team orders but he makes a mockery of them. :thumbdown:


Okay. You don't seem to understand this. Alonso, was HIRED by Ferrari in 2009 for the 2010 season. He is just an EMPLOYEE. He doesn't have the power, to manipulate Ferrari, or any other team for that matter. Unless, he has some super secret method of blackmailing every team he's been in to do as he say, you're talking rubbish.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:09 pm 
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FringeUK wrote:
funkymonkey wrote:
Why would RBR risk move Alonso even closer to Vettel regardless the dirty side.
I have no problem with this at all. Teams take advantage of rules all the time. Last race I thought RBR will not be allowed to change gear ratios. I was proved wrong. This age there is a mention in rules about specifics about changing ratios.
Now Ferrari has done this when the is nothing in rules. Just like the was nothing in rules about the now illegal parts that Redbull raced this year.

Not to mention now everyone except Grosjean will be starting on the side where they actually qualified on merit. Alonso was 9th. He moved to bad side due to Grosjeans penalty.

If this prompts rule change, good. But as I said before, or would have been stupid of Ferrari not to do this when so much is on the line.


I dunno - but if they really do think the dirty side is THAT bad that he will lose places - maybe they think it worth the risk?


I wouldn't hand over any place to the driver of the calibre of Alonso willingly. That is simply too risky. This clean and bad side is still educated guess. A guess.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:09 pm 
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Is Alonso had to win the championship after this it would be by far and away the least deserving WDC of all times.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:09 pm 
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Perhaps anger should be being directed towards the fact that the potential disparity between the clean and dirty side of the grid is prompting this sort of action...


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:11 pm 
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fieldstvl wrote:
Perhaps anger should be being directed towards the fact that the potential disparity between the clean and dirty side of the grid is prompting this sort of action...

:thumbup:


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:11 pm 
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Fishy wrote:
Stimpster wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
I have always wondered how it is that Vettle doesn't feel a little insecure that his team is always doubting his own abilities enough to blatantly f*ck his teammate constantly to help him, and get sister team to jump out of the way. Just once it would be nice to see him say "thanks guys, but have a little faith in me, ive got this".


Fixed that for you.


At least spell his name correctly. All you did was make everyone laugh at you.



Laugh all you want.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:12 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
What shocks me about this entire thing is the amount of people that appear to be shocked.

How long have you guys been watching F1? This is run of the mill stuff.

Good point :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:15 pm 
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RunningMan wrote:
gregwil wrote:
RunningMan wrote:
gregwil wrote:
beanchimp wrote:
Also a lot of you are forgetting that RB would have done exactly the same in the same situation
Absolute rubbish, the only person who would ever stoop to this level is Alonso.


LOL.

So it's no longer Ferrari but just pure and simply Alonso? I hate to break this to you, but Alonso is just an employee of Ferrari, he doesn't run it, he doesn't have that kind of power.

But if that gets in the way of your Alonso bashing feel free to ignore it.
It is all Alonso, look at what happened around him in Renault or in McLaren or right throughout his career. I am not against team orders but he makes a mockery of them. :thumbdown:


Okay. You don't seem to understand this. Alonso, was HIRED by Ferrari in 2009 for the 2010 season. He is just an EMPLOYEE. He doesn't have the power, to manipulate Ferrari, or any other team for that matter. Unless, he has some super secret method of blackmailing every team he's been in to do as he say, you're talking rubbish.
I fail to believe that anyone could be that naive, do you really believe that Alonso would have had nothing to do with this decision, almost guaranteed it would have been his idea.

I would really hate to be an Alonso supporter right now.

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Describes Vettel perfectly, does not always have fastest car yet continues to win


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:16 pm 
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A2jdl wrote:
mcdo wrote:
What shocks me about this entire thing is the amount of people that appear to be shocked.

How long have you guys been watching F1? This is run of the mill stuff.

Good point :thumbup:


Well, I can't recall of a similar incident where a teammate has taken a grid penalty - clearly (or at least most likely) deliberately?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:17 pm 
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Stimpster wrote:
WJF1 wrote:
How people are even comparing last race to this fiasco? Vettel didn't gain nothing, lost a lot. Alonso might gain in start a lot from clean side. Have to wait what Red Bulls might do. Imagine when Webber takes +5 grid penalty, takes Alonso out in first corner = war in F1. But then again Hamilton, supporter of Alonso might also want to help alonso and takes +5 grid penalty.



So last race Red Bull taking Vettles car out of Parc Ferme and changing the gear ratios (5 place grid penalty), in order to increase his top speed. But because he was already starting from pit lane he couldn't be moved back was not done to give Vettel an advantage?


How can that be advantage? when car is starting in pitlane you can do anything to it. Starting from behind every1 with car setting to run infront isn't smart. But not advantage still.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:17 pm 
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Yes. Like I said before. Alonso is an employee. A driver, nothing more. Nothing less. Please show me this "guarentee" that it was his idea.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:19 pm 
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fieldstvl wrote:
Not a Ferrari/Alonso/Red Bull/Vettel fan. Not in the slightest. But I'd be concerned if any team didn't do this. If the rules allow it, which they currently do, then it has to be done.


Is it in the spirit of the rules though? I don't think so. It will be yet another rule which the FIA will need to change to stop it happening again. I actually blame the FIA just as much as Ferrari for this. Allowing the 'dirty' side become so much of an issue and allowing a rule to be abused in such a ridiculous way.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:20 pm 
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FringeUK wrote:
A2jdl wrote:
mcdo wrote:
What shocks me about this entire thing is the amount of people that appear to be shocked.

How long have you guys been watching F1? This is run of the mill stuff.

Good point :thumbup:


Well, I can't recall of a similar incident where a teammate has taken a grid penalty - clearly (or at least most likely) deliberately?

Before the days of Twitter, we would not know. It may be done on a regular basis

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:22 pm 
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RunningMan wrote:
Yes. Like I said before. Alonso is an employee. A driver, nothing more. Nothing less. Please show me this "guarentee" that it was his idea.


Well he co-signed it... So he's just as responsible for it - he could have said "don't do it", but then again, we don't know he didn't.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:22 pm 
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Underviewer wrote:
fieldstvl wrote:
Not a Ferrari/Alonso/Red Bull/Vettel fan. Not in the slightest. But I'd be concerned if any team didn't do this. If the rules allow it, which they currently do, then it has to be done.


Is it in the spirit of the rules though? I don't think so. It will be yet another rule which the FIA will need to change to stop it happening again. I actually blame the FIA just as much as Ferrari for this. Allowing the 'dirty' side become so much of an issue and allowing a rule to be abused in such a ridiculous way.


Of course its not in the spirit of the rules. But its nothing new. Vettel's Abu Dhabi incident was a prime example of taking advantage of discrepencies in the rules and was just as unsporting IMO.

Everyone does it. Do I like it? Not one bit. Will it ever be stopped? Nope!

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:23 pm 
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sgt.hartman wrote:
RunningMan wrote:
Yes. Like I said before. Alonso is an employee. A driver, nothing more. Nothing less. Please show me this "guarentee" that it was his idea.


Well he co-signed it... So he's just as responsible for it - he could have said "don't do it", but then again, we don't know he didn't.


Would any driver in that situation disagreed with the idea?

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:24 pm 
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RunningMan wrote:
Yes. Like I said before. Alonso is an employee. A driver, nothing more. Nothing less. Please show me this "guarentee" that it was his idea.

Santander is paying Ferrari a lot of money to keep Alonso happy. Alonso is leading the team, what he wants is the road where Ferrari will walk.
Ofc it wasn't just Alonso idea, but i don't think Massa didn't play a part of decide anything. Many ex-staff who have worked with Alonso have said that Alonso knows everything that happens in team and put his mark on anything. Wouldn't tho be suprised that Alonso was the first one to say this in Ferrari team meeting.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:24 pm 
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Im hearing reports that Alonso broke the gearbox seal when nobody was looking and Ferrari now have no choice but to pretend it was their strategy.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:25 pm 
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FringeUK wrote:
A2jdl wrote:
mcdo wrote:
What shocks me about this entire thing is the amount of people that appear to be shocked.

How long have you guys been watching F1? This is run of the mill stuff.

Good point :thumbup:


Well, I can't recall of a similar incident where a teammate has taken a grid penalty - clearly (or at least most likely) deliberately?

Like that's the worst call a team has ever made.

This would be a big deal if it was even "cheating".

There have been cases of people changing their driver's qualy times, Tyrrell's lead-filled water tanks, so many things down through the years.

And a within-the-rules gearbox change to aid their only WDC challenger is the worst thing you guys have come across? Get off your high horses, F1 has never been a clean sport. Manipulation of the rules has existed since the 50s. And so has blatant cheating, which this isn't.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:25 pm 
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Underviewer wrote:
fieldstvl wrote:
Not a Ferrari/Alonso/Red Bull/Vettel fan. Not in the slightest. But I'd be concerned if any team didn't do this. If the rules allow it, which they currently do, then it has to be done.


Is it in the spirit of the rules though? I don't think so. It will be yet another rule which the FIA will need to change to stop it happening again. I actually blame the FIA just as much as Ferrari for this. Allowing the 'dirty' side become so much of an issue and allowing a rule to be abused in such a ridiculous way.


No, but with the greatest respect the spirit of the rules don't mean dick.

You're right that the FIA will likely change the rules as a result of this, but that decision needs to be made carefully. No set of rules can allow for all possible loopholes, and at the same time changing the rules to close one hole will likely open up at least one more. This is quite a unique situation we have today, so it might not even require a rule change.

As I've already hinted at, the real issue here is the potential disparity between sides of the grid.

If this penalty option is available, then I'd expect any team to make the most of their options, particularly if the WDC/WCC is up for grabs.


Last edited by fieldstvl on Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:26 pm 
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It may be genius but it makes a farce of Formula 1, what is the point of qualifying if you can shuffle the grid afterwards if you feel like it, Ferrari have just made qualifying a waste of time for me


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:26 pm 
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Underviewer wrote:
fieldstvl wrote:
Not a Ferrari/Alonso/Red Bull/Vettel fan. Not in the slightest. But I'd be concerned if any team didn't do this. If the rules allow it, which they currently do, then it has to be done.


Is it in the spirit of the rules though? I don't think so. It will be yet another rule which the FIA will need to change to stop it happening again. I actually blame the FIA just as much as Ferrari for this. Allowing the 'dirty' side become so much of an issue and allowing a rule to be abused in such a ridiculous way.

Are double diffusers or flexi wings in the spirit of the rules?

Sticking to the non-existent "spirit of the rules" won't get you anywhere in F1. Ferrari's design department has found that out the hard way.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:28 pm 
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becker wrote:
Im hearing reports that Alonso broke the gearbox seal when nobody was looking and Ferrari now have no choice but to pretend it was their strategy.


If no one was looking how can you blame Alonso :twisted:

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:30 pm 
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Point may have already been made...

Vettel seems to profit week in week out from a sister team...all is fair in world of the FIA


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:31 pm 
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RunningMan wrote:
Yes. Like I said before. Alonso is an employee. A driver, nothing more. Nothing less. Please show me this "guarentee" that it was his idea.
This division of Ferrari has one objective, that is to win championships, there are two drivers employed to drive in the races with Alonso being their preferred driver, he is not just any employee.

Anyhow if you do believe that he had nothing to do with this decision then that is your prerogative.

I just would not want to be an Alonso supporter, especially after this. :thumbdown:

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:31 pm 
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fieldstvl wrote:
Underviewer wrote:
fieldstvl wrote:
Not a Ferrari/Alonso/Red Bull/Vettel fan. Not in the slightest. But I'd be concerned if any team didn't do this. If the rules allow it, which they currently do, then it has to be done.


Is it in the spirit of the rules though? I don't think so. It will be yet another rule which the FIA will need to change to stop it happening again. I actually blame the FIA just as much as Ferrari for this. Allowing the 'dirty' side become so much of an issue and allowing a rule to be abused in such a ridiculous way.


No, but with the greatest respect the spirit of the rules don't mean dick.

You're right that the FIA will likely change the rules as a result of this, but that decision needs to be made carefully. No set of rules can allow for all possible loopholes, and at the same time changing the rules to close one hole will likely open up at least one more. This is quite a unique situation we have today, so it might not even require a rule change.

As I've already hinted at, the real issue here is the potential disparity between sides of the grid.

If this penalty option is available, then I'd expect any team to make the most of their options, particularly if the WDC/WCC is up for grabs.



I doubt the rule wil change. It is a disadvantage, as is starting from the pits.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:32 pm 
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6_Tenths wrote:
Point may have already been made...

Vettel seems to profit week in week out from a sister team...all is fair in world of the FIA



How?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:34 pm 
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gregwil wrote:
Is Alonso had to win the championship after this it would be by far and away the least deserving WDC of all times.


I would love to see Alonso win the world title just to piss off people like you who's hatred of a guy (Alonso) is almost scary, its like he has done something personally in your life. You need to get a grip mate.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:34 pm 
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Oh, come on! RBR would never do such a thing as what Ferrari did today. Only they can stoop solow and what's more, get away with it.

In Brazil 2010 RBR gave no team orders when Vettel was leading in Brazil and Webber running second when the Aussie had a substantial points lead over his teammate. RBR could not have known at that stage that Vettel would be on pole in the next race in Abu Dhabi, much less go on to win it. With Alonso leading the group, it would have been in their interest to ask Vettel to let Webber through in Brazil and yet they did not do it.

I have lost what little respect I had for Massa. He has lost all pride and allowed himself to be a lapdog for the money. This is out and out cheating and I hope that Alonso crashes out of the race. He no longer deserves to win the title.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:34 pm 
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Cheap move by Ferrari. I feel really sad for Massa. He did a good job in qualy only to be destroyed just because Master Alonso can move a place up in the grid.


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