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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:18 pm 
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It worked like a charm and Massa ended up showing fantastic race pace. Not only he took 16 laps to get to 6th place but he also ended in 4th only 10 seconds adrift from Fernando, showing he would´ve achieved a comfortable podium today.

That must´ve been one of the boldest team strategies I´ve ever seen. It paid off well and Massa did well knowing what his place was and raced like no other today. Him and Hamilton were the drivers of the day for me.

However, was it a good thing to do? How many times can we see such thing happening again?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:22 pm 
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I wouldn't say he would have got a podium, god knows how many places he would have lost off the start from the dirty side.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:22 pm 
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Like martin brundle said, don't think ferrari had any other option in order to keep the championship alive and I think any other team would have done the same under the same circumstances. Don't think it'll ever happen again though seeing as this GP was a one off with the brand new tarmac, massa outqualified alonso, etc.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:24 pm 
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Great gamble. SD explained it was in the team's best interest (guessing had already resigned losing the WCC), the drivers understood and he wanted to be honest about why they did what they did.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:25 pm 
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Well in terms of helping Alonso it is perfectly legal. Domenicalli said that nobody complains when a driver takes a strategic retirement. But for Massa I'm impressed with his pace, he would have been able to catch Alonso if he didn't have the penalty, but then again we don't know how his pace would have been in his original starting spot (if he got caught in traffic, etc.).

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:25 pm 
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I think FIA needs to address the misuse of laws for other purposes than stated in rules. It wasn't brake of the rule, but was neither done in the letter of the rule that follows the function and purpose of the rule. They clearly gained advantage by misuse of the rule.

It was not done in the spirit of the sportsmanship.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:28 pm 
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The 10-second gap is very misleading. I doubt Alonso was on the limit once 3rd place was secured.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:28 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
I think FIA needs to address the misuse of laws for other purposes than stated in rules. It wasn't brake of the rule, but was neither done in the letter of the rule that follows the function and purpose of the rule. They clearly gained advantage by misuse of the rule.

It was not done in the spirit of the sportsmanship.


Are we talking engine/torque(?) mapping here?

What Ferrari did was not great but it's what they had to do. The had MUCH slower car than Macca and RBR, they just need to maximize every possible thing, to keep themselves in the fight.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:30 pm 
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It was a clever tactic, but a little dirty IMO.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:30 pm 
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Hello, Daniel! I hadn't seen you around for a while, how are things?

Yes, the strategy worked very well for Ferrari today, but it was a risky bet. Not sure if FIA will take any steps to prevent something like that from happening in the future or will let it go - if they do change the rules, let's just hope that they get it right and don't leave any other loopholes. Having said that, the story of recent years seems to be one of "let's see who finds the most loopholes in the rules" and FIA has not been that effective at closing them... ;)


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:31 pm 
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a lame way to gain an advantage, and anybody who says that massa really had a problem is deluded

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:31 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
I think FIA needs to address the misuse of laws for other purposes than stated in rules. It wasn't brake of the rule, but was neither done in the letter of the rule that follows the function and purpose of the rule. They clearly gained advantage by misuse of the rule.

It was not done in the spirit of the sportsmanship.

Neither was all Red Bull's chea...rule-bending this season. Goodness only knows how much 'advantage' they gained by misuse of the various rules.

FIA needs to employ better legislators.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:34 pm 
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I see some people say that sportsmanship is not anymore that important.

Than we can forget about noble example of Sir Sterling Moss, and how he pleaded with stewards to do exactly what has taken from him the championship back in 50's. What a difference 50 years can make in human perception of morality.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:35 pm 
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Fair play by Ferrari.

The real issue is that the FIA should do more to ensure equal oppurtunities for drivers starting on both sides of the grid, to avoid this situation happening and giving the chance for team orders to be beneficial in the first place. Washing both sides of the grid pre race evenly, to remove both dust/dirt/oil seep from the dirty side AND any rubber laid down on the clean side might be a good option.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:38 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
I see some people say that sportsmanship is not anymore that important.

Than we can forget about noble example of Sir Sterling Moss, and how he pleaded with stewards to do exactly what has taken from him the championship back in 50's. What a difference 50 years can make in human perception of morality.


Please, don't tell me that you just heard sportsmanship is not paramount these days. With teams like Ferrari, Renault, Red Bull, this word is long gone in F1.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:38 pm 
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davidb23 wrote:
Fair play by Ferrari.

The real issue is that the FIA should do more to ensure equal oppurtunities for drivers starting on both sides of the grid, to avoid this situation happening and giving the chance for team orders to be beneficial in the first place. Washing both sides of the grid pre race evenly, to remove both dust/dirt/oil seep from the dirty side AND any rubber laid down on the clean side might be a good option.



To me a better option would be stop having Formula as the first weekend. Make them hold a years worth of events to rubber in and remove the oils from the tarmac.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:41 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
davidb23 wrote:
Fair play by Ferrari.

The real issue is that the FIA should do more to ensure equal oppurtunities for drivers starting on both sides of the grid, to avoid this situation happening and giving the chance for team orders to be beneficial in the first place. Washing both sides of the grid pre race evenly, to remove both dust/dirt/oil seep from the dirty side AND any rubber laid down on the clean side might be a good option.



To me a better option would be stop having Formula as the first weekend. Make them hold a years worth of events to rubber in and remove the oils from the tarmac.


Of course, my guess is that sometimes that's just not possible for financial reasons. New tracks get built just in time for a reason, because the investment required to build them is usually provided at the best rates when it can start to be paid off immediately.


Last edited by davidb23 on Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:41 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
I think FIA needs to address the misuse of laws for other purposes than stated in rules. It wasn't brake of the rule, but was neither done in the letter of the rule that follows the function and purpose of the rule. They clearly gained advantage by misuse of the rule.

It was not done in the spirit of the sportsmanship.


At least Ferrari were honest about why they'd done it.

They could have claimed they'd discovered that Massa's gearbox was likely to fail during the race and required changing, co-incidentally bumping Alonso onto the clean side of the grid.

I wonder if they'd have taken the penalty had Button's throttle not failed in Q2.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:41 pm 
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I was thinking the reason was Bernies wallet.

Remember a lot of tracks don't make money from F1.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:42 pm 
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VDV23 wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
I see some people say that sportsmanship is not anymore that important.

Than we can forget about noble example of Sir Sterling Moss, and how he pleaded with stewards to do exactly what has taken from him the championship back in 50's. What a difference 50 years can make in human perception of morality.


Please, don't tell me that you just heard sportsmanship is not paramount these days. With teams like Ferrari, Renault, Red Bull, this word is long gone in F1.

I think that I have right to expect sportsmanship in sport. Else, it is not sport anymore. Than, indicate me some other term for F1.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:42 pm 
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I remember a thread (maybe in the old forum?) about the differences among cheating, exploiting a loophole and clever engineering. Today we've seen a clear case of exploiting a loophole. Probably not the most sportive action, but legal according to the letter of the rules.

That said, I don't think it was as bad as Jean-Éric Verge letting Vettel through at Abu-Dhabi, which IMO stands for the most unsportive action of the year. And remember that Vettel overtook Button in the last couple of laps, maybe he wouldn't have caught him if it wasn't for this move.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:42 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
I think that I have right to expect sportsmanship in sport. Else, it is not sport anymore. Than, indicate me some other term for F1.



A business.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:43 pm 
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did the OP see this 2 threads down?

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5163

I got no issue with the decision, is a team sport as well.

Also that alonso pointed out this goes on more than we think except normally teams cover it up.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:43 pm 
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I don't have any issue with it. It was logical and worked.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:44 pm 
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Well demoting Massa also moved him onto the clean side of the grid as well, which probably helped a little, but it was not the most... sporting of gestures. But also not outside the rules. The saying "All's fair in love and war" springs to mind.

Fair play to Massa for showing excellent pace though, he raced really well. I think he's outclassed Alonso this weekend.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:46 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
I wouldn't say he would have got a podium, god knows how many places he would have lost off the start from the dirty side.

yeah but he lost 5places b4 race even started!!!he wudnt lost 5 startin from dirty side not a tactic just helpin fernando they didnt care where massa gonna finish


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:47 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
VDV23 wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
I see some people say that sportsmanship is not anymore that important.

Than we can forget about noble example of Sir Sterling Moss, and how he pleaded with stewards to do exactly what has taken from him the championship back in 50's. What a difference 50 years can make in human perception of morality.


Please, don't tell me that you just heard sportsmanship is not paramount these days. With teams like Ferrari, Renault, Red Bull, this word is long gone in F1.

I think that I have right to expect sportsmanship in sport. Else, it is not sport anymore. Than, indicate me some other term for F1.


You still class Formula 1 as a sport? You're behind the times my friend. This is way too political to be classed as a sport.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:47 pm 
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First up, Fair play to Ferrari for fronting up and not making excuses. They could easily have said Masa had a problem, then anything else would be speculation.

Second, had any other team been in that place, there would have been something amiss if they had not done it. Look at Hornres reaction when Hill asked him. Hr did not say 'yes we would' but he may as well have.

Third, I'm sure Ferrari and Alonso would have preferred to have started where they were, is it fair that the track gives an advantage?

I know this is going to run and run, but they broke no rules and the only car that was disadvantaged was a Ferrari. Those behind him moved up a place.
It is in the same category as pitting on the second lap for different tyres or starting from the pit lane (and I dont just mean Red Bull here)

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:49 pm 
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Unsporting? Probably, but I'm happy that Ferrari didn't bullshit around it and just said what they did.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:51 pm 
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bart77 wrote:
Johnston wrote:
I wouldn't say he would have got a podium, god knows how many places he would have lost off the start from the dirty side.

yeah but he lost 5places b4 race even started!!!he wudnt lost 5 startin from dirty side not a tactic just helpin fernando they didnt care where massa gonna finish



He maybe wouldn't have lost places. But say he gained 4 from his side and the average was losing 4 from the dirty side. Well he ended up quids in.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:51 pm 
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Hello Morgana. I´ve been a-lurking more than posting these days. Good to ´see´ you.

About the subject, I think people are forgetting someting fundamentally problematic related to Ferrari's decision.

As soon as they changed Massa's place on purpose, they automatically damaged the start strategy of everyone who was immediately behind Massa.

So, the implications of such a demotion are huge to everyone else. Just look at the start's replay to see how disreputable was the start for even-grid positioned drivers such as Kimi, Grosjean and the like.

For that reason alone, I think such moves should be forbidden, meaning a team have to actually prove that their car modification is actually due to a car failure of some sort.

Anyway, maybe they weren't tiddled because of Grosjean's demotion, since after Massa's demotion, almost everyone went back to the original side of the track they were supposed to be before Grosjean's demotion, but anyway, it's controversial because it changes people's race who doesn't have anything to do with it.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:51 pm 
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Daniel Gallagher wrote:
Not only he took 16 laps to get to 6th place but he also ended in 4th only 10 seconds adrift from Fernando, showing he would´ve achieved a comfortable podium today.


Well it took Alonso only one corner to get to 4th place.

As said in other post, we don't know if Alonso (who obviously had no chance to catch the leading duo) was saving his engine and tyres.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:53 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
davidb23 wrote:
Fair play by Ferrari.

The real issue is that the FIA should do more to ensure equal oppurtunities for drivers starting on both sides of the grid, to avoid this situation happening and giving the chance for team orders to be beneficial in the first place. Washing both sides of the grid pre race evenly, to remove both dust/dirt/oil seep from the dirty side AND any rubber laid down on the clean side might be a good option.



To me a better option would be stop having Formula as the first weekend. Make them hold a years worth of events to rubber in and remove the oils from the tarmac.


I think the FIA should let the drivers starting from the 2nd place have an option to swap the starting grid with the 3rd, and the 4th with the 5th, etc.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:55 pm 
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SnakeSVT2003 wrote:
The 10-second gap is very misleading. I doubt Alonso was on the limit once 3rd place was secured.


Yeah but during the first stint Massa was much faster than Alonso. He brought a 15s+ gap down to 5 before Alonso pitted.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:04 pm 
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Bottom line is, it worked. Kudos for not even attempting to bullshit about why they were doing it either.

Cant say im impressed but im not suprised either, wonder what the RB fans would be saying if a TR took a new gearbox to bump Vettel/Webber onto the better side of the grid? I think i'd find that a little harder to stomach.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:09 pm 
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Well Red Bull have done plenty of "unsporting" stuff with their use of STR.

Some people just don't seem to realize what goes on during car design in F1. If they did they would never bother to utter "sportsmanship" in F1. Its all about legality.

As for the outcome, the tactic has clearly worked. Alonso got as high up as possible and actually so did Massa. But even if it didn't work Ferrari had to try it. Every point is precious for the WDC.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:12 pm 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
Bottom line is, it worked. Kudos for not even attempting to bullshit about why they were doing it either.

Cant say im impressed but im not suprised either, wonder what the RB fans would be saying if a TR took a new gearbox to bump Vettel/Webber onto the better side of the grid? I think i'd find that a little harder to stomach.


Not sure if their first instinct was to be honest about it. The first story I saw was this one on Autosport..

Quote:
The Brazilian is set to line-up sixth on the grid at Austin, two places ahead of team-mate Fernando Alonso, but his engineers are understood to be concerned about the state of his gearbox.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104361


Maybe they quickly realized that no one believed them.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:15 pm 
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well at least we don't have to go through the pretence of trying to call it a sport anymore.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:24 pm 
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It was cheating, of course. Manipulating the rules to your advantage, going against the spirit of the rules. Grid penalties are supposed to hurt the team, not help it.

I've seen Ferrari do it countless times and they always get away with it because the FIA is too scared to do something about it, maybe they're afraid of Ferrari's "breakaway series"... :lol:

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Last edited by Piket87 on Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:25 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
I think FIA needs to address the misuse of laws for other purposes than stated in rules. It wasn't brake of the rule, but was neither done in the letter of the rule that follows the function and purpose of the rule. They clearly gained advantage by misuse of the rule.

It was not done in the spirit of the sportsmanship.
So what's the difference between starting from the pitlane with different gear ratios than starting last from the grid with a compromised qualy-race transmision? If you're a backmarker qualified 24th you might want to switch to different gear ratios more race-efficient despite starting from the pitlane...

It seems some rules can be used against the spirit of the sport, Vettel got a penalty in Abu Dabhi and still he could somehow benefit from it.
Johnston wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
I think that I have right to expect sportsmanship in sport. Else, it is not sport anymore. Than, indicate me some other term for F1.



A business.

Circus.


Last edited by chican on Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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