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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:14 am 
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steoc4 wrote:
I'm not convinced by Kimi either. His underperformance at Ferrari is well documented, but just keeping the focus on this year, he's hardly blown away his near-rookie team-mate. In general I'd say Grosjean has actually looked the faster driver, he just keeps ruining his chances by getting in incidents. The Lotus is a very good car and Kimi beats his team-mate by default simply by not crashing, so he doesn't really have to do much to look good.

Not that there's many other obvious candidates for top 4 either. There's a clear top 3 in F1 at the moment, the rest are harder to judge. Put Hulkenberg, Perez, Schumacher, or even Button, Webber or Massa in the Lotus and they might be looking just as good as Kimi is right now.

Give me three races where Grosjean has looked faster overall than Kimi. Other than Canada where he did look very good. One race. Where else?

In fact, if you say that in general Grosjean has looked faster you should have a lot more than three examples, given that we've already had 19 races. What do you base this theory on?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:46 am 
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lamo wrote:
How do you rate Massa?


Pretty fast, drove better than Alonso yesterday after being screwed up by his team (yet again).

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:19 am 
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Mint wrote:
Vettel, Alonso, Raikonen and Hamilton. Would anyone argue with that?

Nope I dont agree.

Kimi is there as a result of consistency and if it had been this time last year no one would be saying otherwise.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:40 am 
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I agree, and we should enjoy it because next year they wont be there anymore, at least one of them if not two.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:36 am 
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lamo wrote:
Hakkattack wrote:
lamo wrote:
I have always been a huge Kimi fan, but Massa was far too close to him during 2007-2009 for my liking.
I would put Jenson and Kimi behind the top three.



Ferrari was never built around Kimi like it was Schumi and Alonso which is why Massa was close... In fairness Kimi should have demanded #1 status but it is not in him


Status means nothing, Massa was beating him from day one and continued to in three different cars and two completely different types of car. Alonso got in the Ferrari and was beating Massa straight away and was so far superior he earned number 1 spot. Schumacher thrashed Massa in 2006.

Fact is, Massa was as strong as Kimi from day one. Tough reading for a Kimi fan, but true.


Not really. Kimi lapped massa in austrailia, the first race at one point in 2007 also giving him the win along with fastest lap and pole. And another podium the next race with a mclaren 1and 2. This was a chassis built around shumy and massa more than kimi. So I think you're full of crap

But something happened at Ferrari with kimi since todt left at the end of 2007.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:37 am 
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I would agree... but not in that order

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:46 am 
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steoc4 wrote:
I'm not convinced by Kimi either. His underperformance at Ferrari is well documented, but just keeping the focus on this year, he's hardly blown away his near-rookie team-mate. In general I'd say Grosjean has actually looked the faster driver, he just keeps ruining his chances by getting in incidents. The Lotus is a very good car and Kimi beats his team-mate by default simply by not crashing, so he doesn't really have to do much to look good.

Not that there's many other obvious candidates for top 4 either. There's a clear top 3 in F1 at the moment, the rest are harder to judge. Put Hulkenberg, Perez, Schumacher, or even Button, Webber or Massa in the Lotus and they might be looking just as good as Kimi is right now.


Gross only looked fast when things didn't work out for kimi. Kimi has taken many points and poduims in the teams recent history. But now that kimi has done it, you claim many drivers can as well in the same chassis. A chassis that I'm claiming has been improved thanks in part because of Kimi.

So your saying all kimi needs to do is not crash? Really, its an ignorant post from you.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:53 am 
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Kimi won 2 races in the best car during 2008. An 18 race championship. Massa, won 6 races in the same car. Felipe Massa, not Michael Schumacher, Alain Prost or Ayrton Senna. But Felipe Massa.

6-2 to Massa in wins is clearly very hard to take for the Kimi fan boys.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:54 am 
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Cozz wrote:
steoc4 wrote:
I'm not convinced by Kimi either. His underperformance at Ferrari is well documented, but just keeping the focus on this year, he's hardly blown away his near-rookie team-mate. In general I'd say Grosjean has actually looked the faster driver, he just keeps ruining his chances by getting in incidents. The Lotus is a very good car and Kimi beats his team-mate by default simply by not crashing, so he doesn't really have to do much to look good.

Not that there's many other obvious candidates for top 4 either. There's a clear top 3 in F1 at the moment, the rest are harder to judge. Put Hulkenberg, Perez, Schumacher, or even Button, Webber or Massa in the Lotus and they might be looking just as good as Kimi is right now.


Gross only looked fast when things didn't work out for kimi. Kimi has taken many points and poduims in the teams recent history. But now that kimi has done it, you claim many drivers can as well in the same chassis. A chassis that I'm claiming has been improved thanks in part because of Kimi.

So your saying all kimi needs to do is not crash? Really, its an ignorant post from you.


people with no facts prefer to drop general statement like these, ignore him Cozz. You are top lad btw.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:00 pm 
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Cozz wrote:
lamo wrote:
Hakkattack wrote:
lamo wrote:
I have always been a huge Kimi fan, but Massa was far too close to him during 2007-2009 for my liking.
I would put Jenson and Kimi behind the top three.



Ferrari was never built around Kimi like it was Schumi and Alonso which is why Massa was close... In fairness Kimi should have demanded #1 status but it is not in him


Status means nothing, Massa was beating him from day one and continued to in three different cars and two completely different types of car. Alonso got in the Ferrari and was beating Massa straight away and was so far superior he earned number 1 spot. Schumacher thrashed Massa in 2006.

Fact is, Massa was as strong as Kimi from day one. Tough reading for a Kimi fan, but true.


Not really. Kimi lapped massa in austrailia, the first race at one point in 2007 also giving him the win along with fastest lap and pole. And another podium the next race with a mclaren 1and 2. This was a chassis built around shumy and massa more than kimi. So I think you're full of crap

But something happened at Ferrari with kimi since todt left at the end of 2007.


Caring not to mention that Massa then took pole, fastest lap and win at the next 2 races.

Back to back grand chelem. Impressive.

So after 4 races Massa led Kimi in the championship race with both having 1 mechanical issue.
Massa had 3 poles and 2 win.
Kimi 1 pole and 1 win.

I did say Massa was on Kimi's pace immediately, I would like to amend that and suggest Massa was actually quicker than Kimi in the early part of 2007.

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Last edited by lamo on Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:03 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Cozz wrote:
lamo wrote:
Hakkattack wrote:
lamo wrote:
I have always been a huge Kimi fan, but Massa was far too close to him during 2007-2009 for my liking.
I would put Jenson and Kimi behind the top three.



Ferrari was never built around Kimi like it was Schumi and Alonso which is why Massa was close... In fairness Kimi should have demanded #1 status but it is not in him


Status means nothing, Massa was beating him from day one and continued to in three different cars and two completely different types of car. Alonso got in the Ferrari and was beating Massa straight away and was so far superior he earned number 1 spot. Schumacher thrashed Massa in 2006.

Fact is, Massa was as strong as Kimi from day one. Tough reading for a Kimi fan, but true.


Not really. Kimi lapped massa in austrailia, the first race at one point in 2007 also giving him the win along with fastest lap and pole. And another podium the next race with a mclaren 1and 2. This was a chassis built around shumy and massa more than kimi. So I think you're full of crap

But something happened at Ferrari with kimi since todt left at the end of 2007.


Caring not to mention that Massa then took pole, fastest lap and win at the next 2 races.

Back to back grand chelem. Impressive.

So after 4 races Massa led Kimi in the championship race with both having 1 mechanical issue.
Massa had 3 poles and 2 win.
Kimi 1 pole and 1 win.

I did say Massa was on Kimi's pace immediately, I would like to amend that and suggest Massa was actually quicker than Kimi in the early part of 2007.


yea, kimi did struggle in firsrt part of the season..and also the team found out some white powder on kimi 's car. And check the security video found out it was Nigel Stepney.

When they found out some people intend to sell out the F2007 secret to rival and reported to FIA, kimi start flying and kept winning and reach podium consistenly after then.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:08 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Kimi won 2 races in the best car during 2008. An 18 race championship. Massa, won 6 races in the same car. Felipe Massa, not Michael Schumacher, Alain Prost or Ayrton Senna. But Felipe Massa.

6-2 to Massa in wins is clearly very hard to take for the Kimi fan boys.


Not really, we are fairly open to it. We know why, and thanks to michael for explaining it in an interview in which he clearly indicate the switch of car development hampered kimi. Prior to the new development introduction kimi was leading the wdc table.

The best car is mclaren seriously. The F2008 suck big time on wet because they reduce the length of wheelbase.

Massa inherited wins from france, spa.

Told you kimi had fair share of bad luck when he could win canada, france, suzuka, silverstone and spa easily had it not been team strategy error, somebody rack to back of his car, exhaust pipe failure etc.

And your so called great driver was trash by not alain prost, aryton senna, but Jarno Trulli before his manager whipe his donkey off the team. He also currently getting his donkey whiped off by massa who was driving a car with fewer updates than alonso himself. Massa is no winky, if he got his car that he likes, he can be as good.

Kimi is the fairest driver on the grid, he will not resort to psychology battle with his teammate, dominate resources etc. hell, he didnt even visit maranello as frequent as fernando did. The massa back then also had better mental state than the massa right now when his team was no longer behind him.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:24 pm 
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Any car that Massa wins 6 races in must suck. If the 2008 Mclaren was better than the 2008 Ferrari then Massa has done something special there to nearly beat Lewis Hamilton in an inferior car.

You assume I support Alonso, why?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:35 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Any car that Massa wins 6 races in must suck. If the 2008 Mclaren was better than the 2008 Ferrari then Massa has done something special there to nearly beat Lewis Hamilton in an inferior car.

You assume I support Alonso, why?


thats the thing, you like to believe the way you reason it with as logically as possible.

watch back the 2008 season seriously, lewis had the upperhand but he commited too many mistake with collision and also unfair sanction by FIA on his Spa win for example, which was inherited by Massa. France victory was also inherited by massa from kimi 's exhaust pipe failure. Why fernando won suzuka gp?? thats because lewis being too overly agressive and took kimi out when he was leading, and followed by massa. eventually, he was penalized with drive through i think, and fernando eventually become the winner.

Massa was failry lucky on 2008, i wont take anything away from him, but thats the truth. He work hard for the car development when kimi was taking vacation instead of getting his pickle stick to maranello.


you can either watch back the whole season, or stick with your statistic from wikipedia etc.

I merely using alonso as example, as you seems too harsh on kimi. cheers dude, if i offended you by somehow, i apologize. here hoping for healthy discussion!!


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:37 pm 
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Looking at some of the responses makes me ashamed to be a Kimi fan. He got beaten by Massa in 2008 fair and square. End of.

I think that Kimi is probably just below the level of the 'big three' at the moment. What has let him down this season has been his qualifying pace, over a single lap Vettel and Hamilton are miles ahead which is odd as Kimi's strength at McLaren was his blistering one lap pace. But too often this season he has not qualified as well as he could of, take Hungary for instance when his pace throughout Q1 and Q2 suggested that he should of been on the front row but instead he ended up 5th. This actually cost him the race win as his pace in the race was amazing but he spent the first half in the pack and in dirty air.

In terms of racecraft I would say he is the best alongside Fernando, but being brutally honest I would still have him just below Vettel, Hamilton and Alonso. But he has been exceptional this year.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:47 pm 
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Senna88 wrote:
Looking at some of the responses makes me ashamed to be a Kimi fan. He got beaten by Massa in 2008 fair and square. End of.



here's the thing, when you meant to say some1 beat you fairy, you would expect that both driver were given the equal beneficial car development, and not hampering 1 while benefiting the others would you???


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:50 pm 
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NvrDieYoung wrote:
Senna88 wrote:
Looking at some of the responses makes me ashamed to be a Kimi fan. He got beaten by Massa in 2008 fair and square. End of.



here's the thing, when you meant to say some1 beat you fairy, you would expect that both driver were given the equal beneficial car development, and not hampering 1 while benefiting the others would you???

Are you saying that Ferrari did this on purpose?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:50 pm 
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Senna88 wrote:
Looking at some of the responses makes me ashamed to be a Kimi fan. He got beaten by Massa in 2008 fair and square. End of.

I think that Kimi is probably just below the level of the 'big three' at the moment. What has let him down this season has been his qualifying pace, over a single lap Vettel and Hamilton are miles ahead which is odd as Kimi's strength at McLaren was his blistering one lap pace. But too often this season he has not qualified as well as he could of, take Hungary for instance when his pace throughout Q1 and Q2 suggested that he should of been on the front row but instead he ended up 5th. This actually cost him the race win as his pace in the race was amazing but he spent the first half in the pack and in dirty air.

In terms of racecraft I would say he is the best alongside Fernando, but being brutally honest I would still have him just below Vettel, Hamilton and Alonso. But he has been exceptional this year.

I'd agree with the qualifying thing. I'm assuming it is in no small part down to the tyres which he struggles to heat up, which has particular impact over one lap. This may also explain why his quali pace seems to have dropped since his McLaren days as maybe he felt much more comfortable on the Michelins (or maybe that's a complete red herring, of course!).

Yesterday was a good example. When he struggled to get heat into his second set of tyres his lap times were all over the place. Yet in the first stint he was superb and when he finally got heat into the tyres at the end he was quicker than everyone bar Vettel and Massa and was only a tenth or so down on them. And in Abu Dhabi he was the fastest drver for much of the GP after Lewis' exit. He clearly still has the speed once the tyres work for him, but it seems their narrow operating window causes him more problems than some others.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:53 pm 
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chinki wrote:
NvrDieYoung wrote:
Senna88 wrote:
Looking at some of the responses makes me ashamed to be a Kimi fan. He got beaten by Massa in 2008 fair and square. End of.



here's the thing, when you meant to say some1 beat you fairy, you would expect that both driver were given the equal beneficial car development, and not hampering 1 while benefiting the others would you???

Are you saying that Ferrari did this on purpose?



not really. they simply did not receive input from kimi as michael imply in this interview where he hinted kimi didn't work hard enough with the team.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIucDSQU5WA


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:53 pm 
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NvrDieYoung wrote:
Senna88 wrote:
Looking at some of the responses makes me ashamed to be a Kimi fan. He got beaten by Massa in 2008 fair and square. End of.



here's the thing, when you meant to say some1 beat you fairy, you would expect that both driver were given the equal beneficial car development, and not hampering 1 while benefiting the others would you???


I am not going to comment on 2008 as it has nothing to do with the article, just wanted to make my point clear on what I say on your part as some quite frankly banal claims about Kimi's season that year.

Just because you are a fan of a driver does not mean you have to defend every thing that they have done in their career, in doing that you lose rational debate, I have supported Kimi for his whole career love it when he does well but I am not afraid to point out when he has driven poorly as he did in many races in 2008

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:54 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Senna88 wrote:
Looking at some of the responses makes me ashamed to be a Kimi fan. He got beaten by Massa in 2008 fair and square. End of.

I think that Kimi is probably just below the level of the 'big three' at the moment. What has let him down this season has been his qualifying pace, over a single lap Vettel and Hamilton are miles ahead which is odd as Kimi's strength at McLaren was his blistering one lap pace. But too often this season he has not qualified as well as he could of, take Hungary for instance when his pace throughout Q1 and Q2 suggested that he should of been on the front row but instead he ended up 5th. This actually cost him the race win as his pace in the race was amazing but he spent the first half in the pack and in dirty air.

In terms of racecraft I would say he is the best alongside Fernando, but being brutally honest I would still have him just below Vettel, Hamilton and Alonso. But he has been exceptional this year.

I'd agree with the qualifying thing. I'm assuming it is in no small part down to the tyres which he struggles to heat up, which has particular impact over one lap. This may also explain why his quali pace seems to have dropped since his McLaren days as maybe he felt much more comfortable on the Michelins (or maybe that's a complete red herring, of course!).

Yesterday was a good example. When he struggled to get heat into his second set of tyres his lap times were all over the place. Yet in the first stint he was superb and when he finally got heat into the tyres at the end he was quicker than everyone bar Vettel and Massa and was only a tenth or so down on them. And in Abu Dhabi he was the fastest drver for much of the GP after Lewis' exit. He clearly still has the speed once the tyres work for him, but it seems their narrow operating window causes him more problems than some others.


Alonso used 10x lap to heat up the hard rubber in austin, i dont thnik it only hampered kimi~~ also bear in mind with E20 being gentle on tyre, it only make matter worst to heat up the harder rubber with low grip circuit.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:59 pm 
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NvrDieYoung wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Senna88 wrote:
Looking at some of the responses makes me ashamed to be a Kimi fan. He got beaten by Massa in 2008 fair and square. End of.

I think that Kimi is probably just below the level of the 'big three' at the moment. What has let him down this season has been his qualifying pace, over a single lap Vettel and Hamilton are miles ahead which is odd as Kimi's strength at McLaren was his blistering one lap pace. But too often this season he has not qualified as well as he could of, take Hungary for instance when his pace throughout Q1 and Q2 suggested that he should of been on the front row but instead he ended up 5th. This actually cost him the race win as his pace in the race was amazing but he spent the first half in the pack and in dirty air.

In terms of racecraft I would say he is the best alongside Fernando, but being brutally honest I would still have him just below Vettel, Hamilton and Alonso. But he has been exceptional this year.

I'd agree with the qualifying thing. I'm assuming it is in no small part down to the tyres which he struggles to heat up, which has particular impact over one lap. This may also explain why his quali pace seems to have dropped since his McLaren days as maybe he felt much more comfortable on the Michelins (or maybe that's a complete red herring, of course!).

Yesterday was a good example. When he struggled to get heat into his second set of tyres his lap times were all over the place. Yet in the first stint he was superb and when he finally got heat into the tyres at the end he was quicker than everyone bar Vettel and Massa and was only a tenth or so down on them. And in Abu Dhabi he was the fastest drver for much of the GP after Lewis' exit. He clearly still has the speed once the tyres work for him, but it seems their narrow operating window causes him more problems than some others.


Alonso used 10x lap to heat up the hard rubber in austin, i dont thnik it only hampered kimi~~ also bear in mind with E20 being gentle on tyre, it only make matter worst to heat up the harder rubber with low grip circuit.

well I was more talking about qualifying, but that's why I wrote "some others" ;)


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:00 pm 
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Senna88 wrote:
NvrDieYoung wrote:
Senna88 wrote:
Looking at some of the responses makes me ashamed to be a Kimi fan. He got beaten by Massa in 2008 fair and square. End of.



here's the thing, when you meant to say some1 beat you fairy, you would expect that both driver were given the equal beneficial car development, and not hampering 1 while benefiting the others would you???


I am not going to comment on 2008 as it has nothing to do with the article, just wanted to make my point clear on what I say on your part as some quite frankly banal claims about Kimi's season that year.

Just because you are a fan of a driver does not mean you have to defend every thing that they have done in their career, in doing that you lose rational debate, I have supported Kimi for his whole career love it when he does well but I am not afraid to point out when he has driven poorly as he did in many races in 2008


im not like you Senna88, i wont judge thing by mere naked eye.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIucDSQU5WA

this video is for you as well where michael explain the reason behind kimi 's struggle.

everything happen for a reason

and if seeking truth is an act of disgrace for you, then i apologize.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:03 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Kimi won 2 races in the best car during 2008. An 18 race championship. Massa, won 6 races in the same car. Felipe Massa, not Michael Schumacher, Alain Prost or Ayrton Senna. But Felipe Massa.

6-2 to Massa in wins is clearly very hard to take for the Kimi fan boys.



actually Kimi had France won and his exhaust broke... so he woudl have had 3 and Massa would have had 5.... then at Spa Kimi had an easy win and in fairness Hamilton did win but they gave it to Massa so he should have had 4 wins. Kimi was leading in Canada but Lewis took him out in the pits so that would have been Kimi's 5th win... and in Japan Kimi lead into corner one, but Lewis went long and ran him off track. Therefore Kimi was set to win 6 that year, and Massa should have had 4 wins.

Funny how stats get in the way of truth. All people remember is that Massa had 6 and Kimi 2, but Massa was gifted many.

Another stat. Kimi 19 wins and a title. Massa 10 wins and no title.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:05 pm 
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Hakkattack wrote:
lamo wrote:
Kimi won 2 races in the best car during 2008. An 18 race championship. Massa, won 6 races in the same car. Felipe Massa, not Michael Schumacher, Alain Prost or Ayrton Senna. But Felipe Massa.

6-2 to Massa in wins is clearly very hard to take for the Kimi fan boys.



actually Kimi had France won and his exhaust broke... so he woudl have had 3 and Massa would have had 5.... then at Spa Kimi had an easy win and in fairness Hamilton did win but they gave it to Massa so he should have had 4 wins. Kimi was leading in Canada but Lewis took him out in the pits so that would have been Kimi's 5th win... and in Japan Kimi lead into corner one, but Lewis went long and ran him off track. Therefore Kimi was set to win 6 that year, and Massa should have had 4 wins.

Funny how stats get in the way of truth. All people remember is that Massa had 6 and Kimi 2, but Massa was gifted many.

Another stat. Kimi 19 wins and a title. Massa 10 wins and no title.


bravo bro, excellent post. Statistic is useless when you dont provide reasoning but just pure numbers.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:05 pm 
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NvrDieYoung wrote:
lamo wrote:
Kimi won 2 races in the best car during 2008. An 18 race championship. Massa, won 6 races in the same car. Felipe Massa, not Michael Schumacher, Alain Prost or Ayrton Senna. But Felipe Massa.

6-2 to Massa in wins is clearly very hard to take for the Kimi fan boys.


Not really, we are fairly open to it. We know why, and thanks to michael for explaining it in an interview in which he clearly indicate the switch of car development hampered kimi. Prior to the new development introduction kimi was leading the wdc table.

The best car is mclaren seriously. The F2008 suck big time on wet because they reduce the length of wheelbase.

Massa inherited wins from france, spa.

Told you kimi had fair share of bad luck when he could win canada, france, suzuka, silverstone and spa easily had it not been team strategy error, somebody rack to back of his car, exhaust pipe failure etc.

And your so called great driver was trash by not alain prost, aryton senna, but Jarno Trulli before his manager whipe his donkey off the team. He also currently getting his donkey whiped off by massa who was driving a car with fewer updates than alonso himself. Massa is no winky, if he got his car that he likes, he can be as good.

Kimi is the fairest driver on the grid, he will not resort to psychology battle with his teammate, dominate resources etc. hell, he didnt even visit maranello as frequent as fernando did. The massa back then also had better mental state than the massa right now when his team was no longer behind him.


you forgot Massa also inherited a win in France that Kimi had in the bag til exhaust broke


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:07 pm 
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Hakkattack wrote:
NvrDieYoung wrote:
lamo wrote:
Kimi won 2 races in the best car during 2008. An 18 race championship. Massa, won 6 races in the same car. Felipe Massa, not Michael Schumacher, Alain Prost or Ayrton Senna. But Felipe Massa.

6-2 to Massa in wins is clearly very hard to take for the Kimi fan boys.


Not really, we are fairly open to it. We know why, and thanks to michael for explaining it in an interview in which he clearly indicate the switch of car development hampered kimi. Prior to the new development introduction kimi was leading the wdc table.

The best car is mclaren seriously. The F2008 suck big time on wet because they reduce the length of wheelbase.

Massa inherited wins from france, spa.

Told you kimi had fair share of bad luck when he could win canada, france, suzuka, silverstone and spa easily had it not been team strategy error, somebody rack to back of his car, exhaust pipe failure etc.

And your so called great driver was trash by not alain prost, aryton senna, but Jarno Trulli before his manager whipe his donkey off the team. He also currently getting his donkey whiped off by massa who was driving a car with fewer updates than alonso himself. Massa is no winky, if he got his car that he likes, he can be as good.

Kimi is the fairest driver on the grid, he will not resort to psychology battle with his teammate, dominate resources etc. hell, he didnt even visit maranello as frequent as fernando did. The massa back then also had better mental state than the massa right now when his team was no longer behind him.


you forgot Massa also inherited a win in France that Kimi had in the bag til exhaust broke



well i assume anyone who watch 2008 season knew that, anyway, thanks for reminding.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:10 pm 
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NvrDieYoung wrote:
Senna88 wrote:
NvrDieYoung wrote:
Senna88 wrote:
Looking at some of the responses makes me ashamed to be a Kimi fan. He got beaten by Massa in 2008 fair and square. End of.



here's the thing, when you meant to say some1 beat you fairy, you would expect that both driver were given the equal beneficial car development, and not hampering 1 while benefiting the others would you???


I am not going to comment on 2008 as it has nothing to do with the article, just wanted to make my point clear on what I say on your part as some quite frankly banal claims about Kimi's season that year.

Just because you are a fan of a driver does not mean you have to defend every thing that they have done in their career, in doing that you lose rational debate, I have supported Kimi for his whole career love it when he does well but I am not afraid to point out when he has driven poorly as he did in many races in 2008


im not like you Senna88, i wont judge thing by mere naked eye.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIucDSQU5WA

this video is for you as well where michael explain the reason behind kimi 's struggle.

everything happen for a reason

and if seeking truth is an act of disgrace for you, then i apologize.


What and that explains everything?, give me a break and stay on topic

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:13 pm 
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Senna88 wrote:
NvrDieYoung wrote:
Senna88 wrote:
NvrDieYoung wrote:
Senna88 wrote:
Looking at some of the responses makes me ashamed to be a Kimi fan. He got beaten by Massa in 2008 fair and square. End of.



here's the thing, when you meant to say some1 beat you fairy, you would expect that both driver were given the equal beneficial car development, and not hampering 1 while benefiting the others would you???


I am not going to comment on 2008 as it has nothing to do with the article, just wanted to make my point clear on what I say on your part as some quite frankly banal claims about Kimi's season that year.

Just because you are a fan of a driver does not mean you have to defend every thing that they have done in their career, in doing that you lose rational debate, I have supported Kimi for his whole career love it when he does well but I am not afraid to point out when he has driven poorly as he did in many races in 2008


im not like you Senna88, i wont judge thing by mere naked eye.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIucDSQU5WA

this video is for you as well where michael explain the reason behind kimi 's struggle.

everything happen for a reason

and if seeking truth is an act of disgrace for you, then i apologize.


What and that explains everything?, give me a break and stay on topic


as a matter of fact, i did. the discussion is part of topic anyway. you need to give urself a break and calm down.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:17 pm 
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Lol, I am the one who needs to calm down compared to the guy who has been banging on about that one season for ages.

Getting things back on topic I think it will be interesting to see where Lewis fits in to the top drivers next year as it will be more difficult to measure considering the car that he will be driving (Likely)

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:44 pm 
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Hakkattack wrote:
lamo wrote:
Kimi won 2 races in the best car during 2008. An 18 race championship. Massa, won 6 races in the same car. Felipe Massa, not Michael Schumacher, Alain Prost or Ayrton Senna. But Felipe Massa.

6-2 to Massa in wins is clearly very hard to take for the Kimi fan boys.



actually Kimi had France won and his exhaust broke... so he woudl have had 3 and Massa would have had 5.... then at Spa Kimi had an easy win and in fairness Hamilton did win but they gave it to Massa so he should have had 4 wins. Kimi was leading in Canada but Lewis took him out in the pits so that would have been Kimi's 5th win... and in Japan Kimi lead into corner one, but Lewis went long and ran him off track. Therefore Kimi was set to win 6 that year, and Massa should have had 4 wins.

Funny how stats get in the way of truth. All people remember is that Massa had 6 and Kimi 2, but Massa was gifted many.

Another stat. Kimi 19 wins and a title. Massa 10 wins and no title.


And didn't Kimi gift Massa the win at Brazil?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:00 pm 
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Hakkattack wrote:
lamo wrote:
Kimi won 2 races in the best car during 2008. An 18 race championship. Massa, won 6 races in the same car. Felipe Massa, not Michael Schumacher, Alain Prost or Ayrton Senna. But Felipe Massa.

6-2 to Massa in wins is clearly very hard to take for the Kimi fan boys.



actually Kimi had France won and his exhaust broke... so he woudl have had 3 and Massa would have had 5.... then at Spa Kimi had an easy win and in fairness Hamilton did win but they gave it to Massa so he should have had 4 wins. Kimi was leading in Canada but Lewis took him out in the pits so that would have been Kimi's 5th win... and in Japan Kimi lead into corner one, but Lewis went long and ran him off track. Therefore Kimi was set to win 6 that year, and Massa should have had 4 wins.

Funny how stats get in the way of truth. All people remember is that Massa had 6 and Kimi 2, but Massa was gifted many.

Another stat. Kimi 19 wins and a title. Massa 10 wins and no title.


Turning a blind eye to Hungary, nice and balanced :lol: ...

So if everything went perfect for Kimi he would have had the same amount of wins as a Felipe Massa. Not very good by any standard.

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Last edited by lamo on Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:01 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
Hakkattack wrote:
lamo wrote:
Kimi won 2 races in the best car during 2008. An 18 race championship. Massa, won 6 races in the same car. Felipe Massa, not Michael Schumacher, Alain Prost or Ayrton Senna. But Felipe Massa.

6-2 to Massa in wins is clearly very hard to take for the Kimi fan boys.



actually Kimi had France won and his exhaust broke... so he woudl have had 3 and Massa would have had 5.... then at Spa Kimi had an easy win and in fairness Hamilton did win but they gave it to Massa so he should have had 4 wins. Kimi was leading in Canada but Lewis took him out in the pits so that would have been Kimi's 5th win... and in Japan Kimi lead into corner one, but Lewis went long and ran him off track. Therefore Kimi was set to win 6 that year, and Massa should have had 4 wins.

Funny how stats get in the way of truth. All people remember is that Massa had 6 and Kimi 2, but Massa was gifted many.

Another stat. Kimi 19 wins and a title. Massa 10 wins and no title.


And didn't Kimi gift Massa the win at Brazil?


Impressive, considering Massa won from pole and Kimi only managed P3 behind Alonso in a Renault.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:16 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Hakkattack wrote:
lamo wrote:
Kimi won 2 races in the best car during 2008. An 18 race championship. Massa, won 6 races in the same car. Felipe Massa, not Michael Schumacher, Alain Prost or Ayrton Senna. But Felipe Massa.

6-2 to Massa in wins is clearly very hard to take for the Kimi fan boys.



actually Kimi had France won and his exhaust broke... so he woudl have had 3 and Massa would have had 5.... then at Spa Kimi had an easy win and in fairness Hamilton did win but they gave it to Massa so he should have had 4 wins. Kimi was leading in Canada but Lewis took him out in the pits so that would have been Kimi's 5th win... and in Japan Kimi lead into corner one, but Lewis went long and ran him off track. Therefore Kimi was set to win 6 that year, and Massa should have had 4 wins.

Funny how stats get in the way of truth. All people remember is that Massa had 6 and Kimi 2, but Massa was gifted many.

Another stat. Kimi 19 wins and a title. Massa 10 wins and no title.


Turning a blind eye to Hungary, nice and balanced :lol: ...

So if everything went perfect for Kimi he would have had the same amount of wins as a Felipe Massa. Not very good by any standard.


The point you seem to be missing (and I'll use Hungary as an example) is that Kimi's problems were not on race day, they were in qualifying - he couldn't generate the necessary heat in the tyres (during that phase of upgrades that hurt him) and thus was often left in 6th or 7th on the grid, at a time when "dirty air" was at its worst - drivers would start to feel the effect of dirty air at around 2 seconds behind the car in front. Being down in this position, behind a much slower car, Kimi would often be nearly 20s behind the lead come the first round of pit stops... In Hungary, once he cleared Alonso, Raikkonen was MASSIVELY quick, the fastest man on the track by quite some margin, lap after lap after lap. Comparing those lap times to Felipe's (and the rest of the front runners) lap times at the start of the race where, arguably, he would have been pushing his hardest, Kimi was quicker by quite a margin. This was a consistent theme for about 4 or 5 races during the mid-season.

Now, it was Kimi's failure to drive around the problem and get on top of it, but that said, Alonso seems to be struggling from exactly the same issue this year - poor qualifying because the Ferrari is unable to generate tyre temp, but DRS and far reduced dirty air effect play to Alonso's advantage, and he's able to move up the field.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:43 pm 
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Yeah Kimi on top... Yeah yeeeeaaah. *popcorn*

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:08 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Hakkattack wrote:
lamo wrote:
Kimi won 2 races in the best car during 2008. An 18 race championship. Massa, won 6 races in the same car. Felipe Massa, not Michael Schumacher, Alain Prost or Ayrton Senna. But Felipe Massa.

6-2 to Massa in wins is clearly very hard to take for the Kimi fan boys.



actually Kimi had France won and his exhaust broke... so he woudl have had 3 and Massa would have had 5.... then at Spa Kimi had an easy win and in fairness Hamilton did win but they gave it to Massa so he should have had 4 wins. Kimi was leading in Canada but Lewis took him out in the pits so that would have been Kimi's 5th win... and in Japan Kimi lead into corner one, but Lewis went long and ran him off track. Therefore Kimi was set to win 6 that year, and Massa should have had 4 wins.

Funny how stats get in the way of truth. All people remember is that Massa had 6 and Kimi 2, but Massa was gifted many.

Another stat. Kimi 19 wins and a title. Massa 10 wins and no title.


And didn't Kimi gift Massa the win at Brazil?


Impressive, considering Massa won from pole and Kimi only managed P3 behind Alonso in a Renault.

Well it was France I was thinking about (missed Hakk's mention of it) and admit the mistake, but I do not understand why you felt the need to be rude.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:28 pm 
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sgt.hartman wrote:
lamo wrote:
Hakkattack wrote:
lamo wrote:
Kimi won 2 races in the best car during 2008. An 18 race championship. Massa, won 6 races in the same car. Felipe Massa, not Michael Schumacher, Alain Prost or Ayrton Senna. But Felipe Massa.

6-2 to Massa in wins is clearly very hard to take for the Kimi fan boys.



actually Kimi had France won and his exhaust broke... so he woudl have had 3 and Massa would have had 5.... then at Spa Kimi had an easy win and in fairness Hamilton did win but they gave it to Massa so he should have had 4 wins. Kimi was leading in Canada but Lewis took him out in the pits so that would have been Kimi's 5th win... and in Japan Kimi lead into corner one, but Lewis went long and ran him off track. Therefore Kimi was set to win 6 that year, and Massa should have had 4 wins.

Funny how stats get in the way of truth. All people remember is that Massa had 6 and Kimi 2, but Massa was gifted many.

Another stat. Kimi 19 wins and a title. Massa 10 wins and no title.


Turning a blind eye to Hungary, nice and balanced :lol: ...

So if everything went perfect for Kimi he would have had the same amount of wins as a Felipe Massa. Not very good by any standard.


The point you seem to be missing (and I'll use Hungary as an example) is that Kimi's problems were not on race day, they were in qualifying - he couldn't generate the necessary heat in the tyres (during that phase of upgrades that hurt him) and thus was often left in 6th or 7th on the grid, at a time when "dirty air" was at its worst - drivers would start to feel the effect of dirty air at around 2 seconds behind the car in front. Being down in this position, behind a much slower car, Kimi would often be nearly 20s behind the lead come the first round of pit stops... In Hungary, once he cleared Alonso, Raikkonen was MASSIVELY quick, the fastest man on the track by quite some margin, lap after lap after lap. Comparing those lap times to Felipe's (and the rest of the front runners) lap times at the start of the race where, arguably, he would have been pushing his hardest, Kimi was quicker by quite a margin. This was a consistent theme for about 4 or 5 races during the mid-season.

Now, it was Kimi's failure to drive around the problem and get on top of it, but that said, Alonso seems to be struggling from exactly the same issue this year - poor qualifying because the Ferrari is unable to generate tyre temp, but DRS and far reduced dirty air effect play to Alonso's advantage, and he's able to move up the field.



Alonso is beating the same Massa 18-1 in qualifying. You can really judge a driver by his performance relative to his team mate. Alonso has the best record in qualifying this year relative to his team mate. You can only do what the car is capable of and the 2008 car was capable of the front row every race.

I remember well Kimi's problems in 2008, his weakness is not being able to adapt. I am and was a massive Kimi fan at the time, a big nail in the coffin was Massa beating Kimi at Monaco in the wet. Massa is hopeless in the wet and dropped Kimi at over half a second per lap in the first stint. That was a gutter as a Kimi fan.

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Last edited by lamo on Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:28 pm 
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Hakkattack wrote:

actually Kimi had France won and his exhaust broke... so he woudl have had 3 and Massa would have had 5.... then at Spa Kimi had an easy win and in fairness Hamilton did win but they gave it to Massa so he should have had 4 wins. Kimi was leading in Canada but Lewis took him out in the pits so that would have been Kimi's 5th win... and in Japan Kimi lead into corner one, but Lewis went long and ran him off track. Therefore Kimi was set to win 6 that year, and Massa should have had 4 wins.

Funny how stats get in the way of truth. All people remember is that Massa had 6 and Kimi 2, but Massa was gifted many.

Another stat. Kimi 19 wins and a title. Massa 10 wins and no title.


Come on Hakk, you're not really trying anymore.

*In France, his exhaust broke and he didn't have the pace to challenge for the win. If Massa's exhaust had suffered the same failure, I've little doubt you'd have looked the other way.
*At Spa Raikkonen crashed, thanks. He didn't have an 'easy win' in any way.
*In Canada they retired on lap 19. Lap 19 of 70. That win was in no way a certainty - especially as Hamilton was faster than Raikkonen on-track.
*In Japan it was Kovalainen that ran Raikkonen off. I'm not sure why people still say it was Hamilton. And going wide at the first corner doesn't compromise a whole race. Because he was leading running into the first corner certainly doesn't mean he was going to win the race.

As has been stated, it was Raikkonen's inability to get heat into the tyres in qualifying that saw his struggles in 2008. But that is in no way an excuse for Kimi. He was unable to get everything out of the car, meaning his performance was less than that of his team-mate. There's no ifs or buts - Massa was by far the better driver in 2008. In your examples you could have at least reminded us that Raikkonen moved over for Massa in China - but then again Felipe did the same thing for Kimi at Brazil in 2007, I believe.

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