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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:31 am 
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Ever since Japan, Alonso has been very inconsistent

Japan - Made a mistake (a racing incident, but still Alonso was to blame)
Korea - Slower than Massa, if Massa had started where Alonso did, he might've ended higher up
India and Abu Dhabi - Good races
USA - Again slower than Massa and by a good amount

That's 3 bad races out of 5 and given his car isn't all that capable, he has really lost out because of it.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:40 am 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
Ever since Japan, Alonso has been very inconsistent

Japan - Made a mistake (a racing incident, but still Alonso was to blame)
Korea - Slower than Massa, if Massa had started where Alonso did, he might've ended higher up
India and Abu Dhabi - Good races
USA - Again slower than Massa and by a good amount

That's 3 bad races out of 5 and given his car isn't all that capable, he has really lost out because of it.


While I agree that so far Alonso hasn't coped with the pressure all that well. He only lost out in one of the races. No one was catching Vettel or Hamilton in Austin. And Korea even with Massa's pace I doubt he could have caught either Red Bull. So he really only lost out in Suzuka.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:48 am 
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And i thought he did fantastic job to be on the podium in india and austin. Agreed that massa has somewhat found his mojo back but alonso hasnt done that bad given the limitations of his car.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:01 am 
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:24 am 
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luieluv wrote:
And i thought he did fantastic job to be on the podium in india and austin.


Why?
In Austin, the Ferrari clearly was "best of the rest". With Button starting from behind (and getting a very bad start), and with Webber having to park his car, he got a logical third place.
In India, Ferrari's race pace was very good, and Hamilton had some problems. Webber became a sitting duck without his KERS, so for me that was another logical podium.

Not trying to be negative towards him, but I don't think he worked miracles in those races.


Last edited by mds on Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:38 am 
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I think Alonso is the standard, he's done a great job and I'm really rooting for him to win, but..... he's been subject to the most incredible hype all season. Whilst the Ferrari has clearly seldom (if ever) been the best car this year, I don't believe it's been nearly as bad as most think. How do we know how slow the Ferrari is? It's just perception built on a comparison to Massa (whose performances have been no gauge of anything), and comments from within the team (which can't be relied upon for obvious reasons).

He's been exceptional at getting the best possible result on offer, but I get the impression most fans would go much further.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:45 am 
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He did say he only needed one bad race, so Japan it is.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:59 am 
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IMO the difference has been the qualifying speed, the way the Ferrari can bring up heat in the tyres that fast. That's where the McLaren excells this year, and the Red Bull before that.

They've found it's such a huge advantage to start up front, and Ferrari haven't been able to get that advantage.

I also belive he is at top off his game this year, and above the rest right now.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:02 am 
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What a load of bollocks he is still right behind Seb so he did a great job.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:25 am 
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Balibari wrote:
I think Alonso is the standard, he's done a great job and I'm really rooting for him to win, but..... he's been subject to the most incredible hype all season. Whilst the Ferrari has clearly seldom (if ever) been the best car this year, I don't believe it's been nearly as bad as most think. How do we know how slow the Ferrari is? It's just perception built on a comparison to Massa (whose performances have been no gauge of anything), and comments from within the team (which can't be relied upon for obvious reasons).

He's been exceptional at getting the best possible result on offer, but I get the impression most fans would go much further.


But then you could say that about any driver and car in history. Maybe the RBR is 2 sec a lap quicker but we don't know since Vettel's an average and Webber a below average driver.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:29 am 
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JerCotter7 wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Ever since Japan, Alonso has been very inconsistent

Japan - Made a mistake (a racing incident, but still Alonso was to blame)
Korea - Slower than Massa, if Massa had started where Alonso did, he might've ended higher up
India and Abu Dhabi - Good races
USA - Again slower than Massa and by a good amount

That's 3 bad races out of 5 and given his car isn't all that capable, he has really lost out because of it.


While I agree that so far Alonso hasn't coped with the pressure all that well. He only lost out in one of the races. No one was catching Vettel or Hamilton in Austin. And Korea even with Massa's pace I doubt he could have caught either Red Bull. So he really only lost out in Suzuka.


Not in USA, no; but he could've easily passed Webber if he has Massa's pace in Korea. I think he lost 10-15 points in Japan + Korea. Japan is escusable since every driver's entitled to one mistake per season.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:29 am 
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I think he has compromised quali setup for a more race orientated setup, Ferrari have good top speed and is pretty good on tyres, that combined with DRS and his ability to overtake i don't think he is that bothered if he doesn't start on pole, unlike a certain RB driver.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:57 am 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
Not in USA, no; but he could've easily passed Webber if he has Massa's pace in Korea. I think he lost 10-15 points in Japan + Korea. Japan is escusable since every driver's entitled to one mistake per season.

I think he lost 18 points in Japan alone.

With Korea I think there was nothing he could do.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:19 pm 
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lunatic wrote:
I think he has compromised quali setup for a more race orientated setup, Ferrari have good top speed and is pretty good on tyres, that combined with DRS and his ability to overtake i don't think he is that bothered if he doesn't start on pole, unlike a certain RB driver.


But his race pace has been slower than Massa's on two occasions.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:26 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
lunatic wrote:
I think he has compromised quali setup for a more race orientated setup, Ferrari have good top speed and is pretty good on tyres, that combined with DRS and his ability to overtake i don't think he is that bothered if he doesn't start on pole, unlike a certain RB driver.


But his race pace has been slower than Massa's on two occasions.
Massa is an odd one RD, on his day he can be blisteringly quick, he lacks in a lot of areas but the boy can sure be fast when his head is right hence him battling for the championship in 08, Fernando (over a lap) isn't the quickest guy out there, but he can bang in consistant times lap after lap after lap and thats what makes him a great driver (and one i really don't like so heaping praise is difficult for me :lol: ), i actually think that an on form Massa is quicker than Alonso its just Alonso betters him in every other area.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:10 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
Ever since Japan, Alonso has been very inconsistent

Japan - Made a mistake (a racing incident, but still Alonso was to blame)
Korea - Slower than Massa, if Massa had started where Alonso did, he might've ended higher up
India and Abu Dhabi - Good races
USA - Again slower than Massa and by a good amount

That's 3 bad races out of 5 and given his car isn't all that capable, he has really lost out because of it.


Does your definition of “inconsistent” differ from mine?!?! Because to me, Alonso has been consistent.

Japan – Unlucky. Squeezed Kimi a bit too much expecting Kimi to back out, but Kimi didn’t.

Korea – 3rd behind the 2 RBR’s (which by then were clearly the fastest cars)
India – 2nd place behind a clearly faster Vettel
Abu Dhabi – 2nd place behind a deserving winner in Kimi
USA – 3rd place behind two clearly faster cars (Lewis & Seb)

So since Japan, Alonso has maximised what he could have achieved in the Ferrari. You may claim Massa was faster in a few, but then Alonso didn’t need to push if he wasn’t going to keep up with and/or overtake clearly faster cars in front of him. Why bother stressing the car for nothing?

:D :D :D


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:49 pm 
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It comes as no surprise to me that he was again slower than Massa by quite a margin.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:54 pm 
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Massa didn't have the latest upgrades in Abu Dhabi.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:56 pm 
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Next year would be interesting if Massa stays on form like this or if he is allowed to. Can Massa pull a Kimi on Alonso next year ;)


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:01 pm 
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You can only compare him to Massa. His pace vs the Mclarens and Red Bulls is not up for contention.

The fact is Massa is right up there with him 50% of the time in the last 6-8 races. The first half of the year, Alonso was battling for podiums and stealing wins whilst Massa was battling for P12.

Very odd indeed, I just think Massa is now comfortable. These tyres have very difficult for certain drivers, Button being another prime example.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:02 pm 
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Massa rules on anti clockwise circuits why don't people understand thiis?

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:03 pm 
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Gothalamide wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Ever since Japan, Alonso has been very inconsistent

Japan - Made a mistake (a racing incident, but still Alonso was to blame)
Korea - Slower than Massa, if Massa had started where Alonso did, he might've ended higher up
India and Abu Dhabi - Good races
USA - Again slower than Massa and by a good amount

That's 3 bad races out of 5 and given his car isn't all that capable, he has really lost out because of it.


Does your definition of “inconsistent” differ from mine?!?! Because to me, Alonso has been consistent.

Japan – Unlucky. Squeezed Kimi a bit too much expecting Kimi to back out, but Kimi didn’t.

Korea – 3rd behind the 2 RBR’s (which by then were clearly the fastest cars)
India – 2nd place behind a clearly faster Vettel
Abu Dhabi – 2nd place behind a deserving winner in Kimi
USA – 3rd place behind two clearly faster cars (Lewis & Seb)

So since Japan, Alonso has maximised what he could have achieved in the Ferrari. You may claim Massa was faster in a few, but then Alonso didn’t need to push if he wasn’t going to keep up with and/or overtake clearly faster cars in front of him. Why bother stressing the car for nothing?

:D :D :D

You can't paper over cracks that easily.
What about qualifying? He was 14-0 up at one point. Now Massa has out qualified him in the last 2 races :?
Something definitely massively changed in their relative pace. I personally think Massa is just getting more out of the car as opposed to Alonso losing anything.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:11 pm 
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lamo wrote:
I personally think Massa is just getting more out of the car as opposed to Alonso losing anything.

If Alonso aint losing anything, then he cant be the best coz Massa is doing better than him - in qualy and races too. You ignore a race or two but it cant be all Massa, Alonso is going downhill but right now I cant tell why...


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:19 pm 
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Playing around with to many new parts. Instead of maxing out the parts they did have a few races ago, like massa has done, they are trying to make the car faster with new parts and have wasted a lot of time trying to sort them out.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:29 pm 
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f1madman wrote:
Massa rules on anti clockwise circuits why don't people understand thiis?


Never thought of that! Got any data on that though? Not doubting you, just want to see it.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:32 pm 
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Considering that he has a slower car and he's been behind in the points, it's not a big surprise that he may be trying too hard.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:33 pm 
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f1madman wrote:
Massa rules on anti clockwise circuits why don't people understand thiis?

Interesting thought! How so?

edit - my bad! getting my facts twisted in the excitement!


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 7:27 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
f1madman wrote:
Massa rules on anti clockwise circuits why don't people understand thiis?


Never thought of that! Got any data on that though? Not doubting you, just want to see it.


Off the top of my head. Massa has won at Turkey 3x, and Brazil 2x. Plus he's gone strong at tracks like Singapore. So in all honesty, this may be true. Austin was anti clockwise as well

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:02 pm 
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I admire him as a great driver

not a driving god


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:02 pm 
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I think the last few races highlight how much more Alonso has felt the need to take more risks compared to the beginning of the season when no title was hanging in the balance for Ferrari - and when that happens, not all risks come off perfectly. This could include the incident at Suzuka, small mistakes in qualifying, etc. Not something we think of too often, but it could simply be Alonso overdriving the car in an attempt to make up for the so-called "Newey" factor.

I wouldn't necessarily consider it Alonso cracking under pressure but trying to do things the car isn't capable of, and coming off worse for it. Possibly, it may have been the reverse for Massa all year (not comfortable in the car and taking too many risks to keep up with his very talented teammate - and coming off worse for it). I think tomorrow will be interesting if Vettel doesn't show as fast as he'd like to be. I believe both Alonso and Vettel are rock hard competitors, but we could see either one start to crumble mentally tomorrow should traffic or team errors spring up and threaten to ruin their race day.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:16 pm 
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RunningMan wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
f1madman wrote:
Massa rules on anti clockwise circuits why don't people understand thiis?


Never thought of that! Got any data on that though? Not doubting you, just want to see it.


Off the top of my head. Massa has won at Turkey 3x, and Brazil 2x. Plus he's gone strong at tracks like Singapore. So in all honesty, this may be true. Austin was anti clockwise as well


lol that's about as much proof as I could think of.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:37 pm 
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f1madman wrote:
Massa rules on anti clockwise circuits why don't people understand thiis?


Because it's not true any more, used to be. This is what happens when you give your mojo up for the team, no one else to blame.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:51 pm 
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Massa being from the southern hemisphere is better going counter clockwise. Toilets also flush that way too.


/joke


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:53 pm 
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I think Alonso is overdriving it now. He can see the title just hanging, tantalizingly out of his grasp, and he's overdriving, trying to make up that last extra bit of performance, making small mistakes that he usually doesn't make.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:18 pm 
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Alonso is driving scared... pressure is getting to him. Funny how he and Hamilton keep claiming it is Vettel who is scared... does not look that way to me


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:27 pm 
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JerCotter7 wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Ever since Japan, Alonso has been very inconsistent

Japan - Made a mistake (a racing incident, but still Alonso was to blame)
Korea - Slower than Massa, if Massa had started where Alonso did, he might've ended higher up
India and Abu Dhabi - Good races
USA - Again slower than Massa and by a good amount

That's 3 bad races out of 5 and given his car isn't all that capable, he has really lost out because of it.


While I agree that so far Alonso hasn't coped with the pressure all that well. He only lost out in one of the races. No one was catching Vettel or Hamilton in Austin. And Korea even with Massa's pace I doubt he could have caught either Red Bull. So he really only lost out in Suzuka.


I think Massa might have caught the Red Bulls in Korea, it depends how hard they really were being on the tyres.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:27 pm 
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Hakkattack wrote:
Alonso is driving scared... pressure is getting to him. Funny how he and Hamilton keep claiming it is Vettel who is scared... does not look that way to me


I don't usually agree with you but well said.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:31 pm 
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Well, I can see that Alonso is a bit anxious about this opportunity and he's not trying to let it slip away again. He's the best on the grid as a fantastic all-round driver, but there are limitations. The Ferraris' RD path was pushed so much that I think constantly having to revamp things such as the exhaust, front/rear wings, endplates, small winglets, etc. Also, with the issues in Maranello with the wind tunnel and having to go to Cologne just to make and create new/update parts for the car. I'm not a fan of Alonso, but you have to give the man credit for doing what he has done with the Ferrari this season with 12 podiums. Thats insane! 60% of the races he was in this season, he was on the podium. He's a hell of a racer, but he's pushing everything out of the damn thing to keep up with Red Bull and Mclaren. From issues from the beginning of the season with traction to having to use Sauber's exhaust layout to having to gain almost a whole second to now. This team has made strides, but only so much can be done to evolve chassis.

There are limits and I think Ferrari has reached it, I would love to see what they can do next year and with Massa performing at a higher level. Things in reality are looking good for Alonso and Ferrari in general.

One man can only do so much behind the wheel before reaching a limit.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 1:17 am 
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AmericanFan wrote:
Massa being from the southern hemisphere is better going counter clockwise. Toilets also flush that way too.


/joke


How do they flush on the equator, straight down? :lol:

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 1:51 am 
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Alonso was never the fast one. He was just good in getting the team around him.

As soon as Massa got the confidence back, he put Alonso in his place... I reckon if massa and alonso were given equal status like in kimi days , massa will kill alonso


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