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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:24 pm 
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Caravaggio wrote:
Never mind Jenson !

Id put Kimi ahead of Vettel if you could keep him off the beer.

.


If you'd ask me, the "unmotivated" Kimi who has been fired have taken a fairy cakes car by all means in 2009 and was the highest points scorer in the second half of 2009 where the development of the car has been officially suspended and all resources shifted to the next year.

Talk about putting a car where it doesn't belong. All Ferrari needed to do is listen to him. Makes you wonder what could have he done if they were listening in 2008 and if they did the same in 2009. The car might have not looked as bad as it did

Where does that put Hamilton, Alonso and co compared to him? I don't think anyone have taken a fairy cakes car to what he did, he even won on merit not by luck in Spa


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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:58 pm 
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Interesting is that these 2 have the same strengths and weaknesses (Andrea Stella said Kimi also struggles in an unbalanced car and has a small operating window, in which he is unbeatable). Unlike say Button and Lewis who are on opposite ends of the spectrum.

Both have been known to be good qualifiers (Button before Hamilton and Kimi before Grosjean and Massa).

Both are known for their consistency and both are about the same age!
I don't think there is much between them, heart says Button mind says that whoever who will have less problems out of his hand is going to win it.


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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:08 pm 
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F1nsider wrote:
Caravaggio wrote:
Never mind Jenson !

Id put Kimi ahead of Vettel if you could keep him off the beer.

.


If you'd ask me, the "unmotivated" Kimi who has been fired have taken a fairy cakes car by all means in 2009 and was the highest points scorer in the second half of 2009 where the development of the car has been officially suspended and all resources shifted to the next year.

Talk about putting a car where it doesn't belong. All Ferrari needed to do is listen to him. Makes you wonder what could have he done if they were listening in 2008 and if they did the same in 2009. The car might have not looked as bad as it did

Where does that put Hamilton, Alonso and co compared to him? I don't think anyone have taken a fairy cakes car to what he did, he even won on merit not by luck in Spa



Its a good point !

Is a fully motivated Kimi unbeatable ? That was certainly the common concensus when he moved to Ferrari. He failed or simply didnt want to go on to that level tho. Could have been the fault of Ferrari or could have been his own ambivalence.

Or lack of a quality cap manufacturer :)


.


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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:24 pm 
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chinki wrote:


Kimi has often gone backwards this year in qualy, especially in Q3 and you are assuming the car did not have the pace in qualy. The Lotus should have had many wins this year but Kimi couldnt hook up the car together at crucial points of time in qualy and race. In a way, I think that Jenson and Kimi are too sensitive to the handling of the car and for some reason are not able to make the tyres work when needed. Is it a driver failing or a car problem, we cant be sure but it is possible that a better driver in that car would have done much better than Kimi has.


even if he didn't make mistake, you seriously think that car gonna get poles??? Kimi already sorted out his qualifying problem more or less. I disagree with your claim that kimi should have won many races, because it wasnt his fault at all rather than the team unable to came up with better strategy.

He did in bahrain, but his team pitted him on the same lap as vettel instead of opting for undercut strategy. (martin brundle claimes)

In hungary, without Kers failure he might well be ahead of lewis after the pits.

he should won in barcelona as well, but the team pit him for slower tyre and make him run a long stinct, when kimi finally pit for faster tyre which was hard, he already running out of laps.

Hockenheim, again, pit kimi for slower tyre in middle stint and make him run a long stint. Kimi still managed to drag the car to 3rd despite starting from 10th (wet qualifying, car suffer to generate heat).


Many people slate kimi but those who never watch the races will nvr find out about it. And kimi himself nvr bother blame the team, if it had been other drivers, they will whine all days long so that they could escape the blame.

Allan Mcnish, commentator for sky said that, the general view of paddock are consensus that Lotus often made strategy choices in which the other team struggle to understand.


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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:29 am 
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M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:
Interesting is that these 2 have the same strengths and weaknesses (Andrea Stella said Kimi also struggles in an unbalanced car and has a small operating window, in which he is unbeatable). Unlike say Button and Lewis who are on opposite ends of the spectrum.

Both have been known to be good qualifiers (Button before Hamilton and Kimi before Grosjean and Massa).

Both are known for their consistency and both are about the same age!
I don't think there is much between them, heart says Button mind says that whoever who will have less problems out of his hand is going to win it.




Stella didnt said kimi struggle in unbalanced car, just that kimi will try very hard to find his comfort zone. When he is in the zone, he is unbeatable, when he's not, he is as good as anyone out there. Its not like suddenly he become slump.

Unbalance car wont affect kimi so much given how he favor oversteer. Thats why when his anti roll bar failed in Suzuka, despite facing rear instability, kimi still manage to bring the car home in P6.

Kimi 's main problem is heating tyre, thats all.


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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:33 am 
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With the talk of Button building the team around himself in a way that I suspect was Raikkonen's failure and downfall at Ferrari I'm not sure, though I'm inclined towards Raikkonen (his records, and standing this year). They're both similar drivers, when the car is exactly how they like it, they're unbeatable... When it isn't they can both look simply bad.
The Raikkonen of McLaren was a famed qualifier, his Ferrari, and current form is simply a product of not being able to heat tyres quickly enough, Button seems to have the same problem but I don't remember him ever being a fast qualifier (isn't it one in three years at McLaren?).

Going back to my first point, if Raikkonen cared about anything off the track, or was competitive enough to get no.1 status in the way that Schumacher and Alonso had and have respectively, then I believe that he would already be a multiple WDC. I don't see Button in the same light. Raikkonen seems like he would be happy to arrive at the track ten minutes before the qualifying sessions and race, if he could. And he probably wouldn't care that it would cost him strategy vs his team mate, race wins, and WDCs, and a Ferrari contract extension etc


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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:48 am 
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bbobeckyj wrote:
With the talk of Button building the team around himself in a way that I suspect was Raikkonen's failure and downfall at Ferrari I'm not sure, though I'm inclined towards Raikkonen (his records, and standing this year). They're both similar drivers, when the car is exactly how they like it, they're unbeatable... When it isn't they can both look simply bad.
The Raikkonen of McLaren was a famed qualifier, his Ferrari, and current form is simply a product of not being able to heat tyres quickly enough, Button seems to have the same problem but I don't remember him ever being a fast qualifier (isn't it one in three years at McLaren?).

Going back to my first point, if Raikkonen cared about anything off the track, or was competitive enough to get no.1 status in the way that Schumacher and Alonso had and have respectively, then I believe that he would already be a multiple WDC. I don't see Button in the same light. Raikkonen seems like he would be happy to arrive at the track ten minutes before the qualifying sessions and race, if he could. And he probably wouldn't care that it would cost him strategy vs his team mate, race wins, and WDCs, and a Ferrari contract extension etc


They aint similar at all in term of driving style. A neutral and oversteer - philic. And when car wasnt to their liking, Kimi coped better and still manage to finish top5, jenson just finish out of points.


Jenson 's issues is more worst this season. Kimi 's issues cease in qualifying, he got no issues at all during the race, and it seems kimi already sorted out his qualifying woes. However, Jenson struggle not only with tyre, but also the car balance which drag down all the way to race.


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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:50 am 
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NvrDieYoung wrote:
Stella didnt said kimi struggle in unbalanced car, just that kimi will try very hard to find his comfort zone. When he is in the zone, he is unbeatable, when he's not, he is as good as anyone out there.

I am curious about the part underlined above. Which driver on the current grid do you consider beatable even when he is in the zone?


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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:01 am 
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chinki wrote:
NvrDieYoung wrote:
Stella didnt said kimi struggle in unbalanced car, just that kimi will try very hard to find his comfort zone. When he is in the zone, he is unbeatable, when he's not, he is as good as anyone out there.

I am curious about the part underlined above. Which driver on the current grid do you consider beatable even when he is in the zone?


All??

Stella raised a nice example though.

In shanghai 2007, the secret of kimi 's victory was he able to set competitive lap time on the worn out tyre, while lewis just struggle, allow kimi to close up and overtook him for the victory. Of course, people slam kimi for being lucky in the end which i think is laughable.

His 2009 Spa victory also Stella 's favorite when Baddoer finished last, and the team already stop developing the car. Sutil was fast to critisized the kers advantage and adamant he could win in that car. When he replaced Baddoer, he couldn't even get near 1 sec of kimi, and failed to score even 1 points while kimi continue with podium finished and subsequently point finishes.

Kimi also claimed that he drove better than he ever did in 2009

The same stuff i had saw in Hungary 2012, the way kimi jump 3 car in 1 pit stop by pitting later than anyone and set fastest lap over another fastest lap on the worn out tyre. Shame that Kers issues didnt provide him extra boost. 2 more sec gain he will come out in front of lewis out from the pit.

thats how good kimi is when he's in the zone.


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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:36 am 
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Right now Kimi seems more consistent. So I'll go with Kimi. But in a head-to-head comparison they are fairly evenly matched. Neither is a particularly good qualifier, both very good racers and both pretty good overtakers. Kimi seems to be a bit better at starts and restarts though.

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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:45 am 
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callMEcrazy wrote:
Right now Kimi seems more consistent. So I'll go with Kimi. But in a head-to-head comparison they are fairly evenly matched. Neither is a particularly good qualifier, both very good racers and both pretty good overtakers. Kimi seems to be a bit better at starts and restarts though.



Kimi is great racer and great overtakers.

jenson nvr establish himself as great qualifier throughout his career unlike kimi.

Kimi has that quality, he just need more time to find his mojo back. And it seems he does, from race to race continue to improve on that department.

Watch this space for 2013


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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:47 am 
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NvrDieYoung wrote:
chinki wrote:
NvrDieYoung wrote:
Stella didnt said kimi struggle in unbalanced car, just that kimi will try very hard to find his comfort zone. When he is in the zone, he is unbeatable, when he's not, he is as good as anyone out there.

I am curious about the part underlined above. Which driver on the current grid do you consider beatable even when he is in the zone?


All??

Stella raised a nice example though.

In shanghai 2007, the secret of kimi 's victory was he able to set competitive lap time on the worn out tyre, while lewis just struggle, allow kimi to close up and overtook him for the victory. Of course, people slam kimi for being lucky in the end which i think is laughable.

His 2009 Spa victory also Stella 's favorite when Baddoer finished last, and the team already stop developing the car. Sutil was fast to critisized the kers advantage and adamant he could win in that car. When he replaced Baddoer, he couldn't even get near 1 sec of kimi, and failed to score even 1 points while kimi continue with podium finished and subsequently point finishes.

Kimi also claimed that he drove better than he ever did in 2009

The same stuff i had saw in Hungary 2012, the way kimi jump 3 car in 1 pit stop by pitting later than anyone and set fastest lap over another fastest lap on the worn out tyre. Shame that Kers issues didnt provide him extra boost. 2 more sec gain he will come out in front of lewis out from the pit.

thats how good kimi is when he's in the zone.


Shanghai '07 wasn't really a special performance. All the front runners had the same strategy and Hammo was the only one who couldn't make his tires last. Kimi was 2nd so he was the first guy to benefit from it. As I remember, Alonso with the same strategy also caught Hammo from 20s behind before he pit. Practically it was like Hammo retiring from the lead.

I'm surprised you didn't mention Suzuka '05. Now THAT was worthy of mention.

NvrDieYoung wrote:
Kimi is great racer and great overtakers.

jenson nvr establish himself as great qualifier throughout his career unlike kimi.

Kimi has that quality, he just need more time to find his mojo back. And it seems he does, from race to race continue to improve on that department.

Watch this space for 2013


I don't know. The last time Kimi looked quick in qualifying was in McLaren 7 years ago. He got thrashed in Ferrari even in '07 when he won the title, and he is getting beaten now by a struggling Grisjean. JB is getting thrashed by Hamilton alright, but his qualifying record against Barrichello is quite good. I believe he beat Barrichello in quali over 4 years. But anyway, I wouldn't expect either of them to improve dramatically in quali next season.

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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:55 am 
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callMEcrazy wrote:
NvrDieYoung wrote:
chinki wrote:
NvrDieYoung wrote:
Stella didnt said kimi struggle in unbalanced car, just that kimi will try very hard to find his comfort zone. When he is in the zone, he is unbeatable, when he's not, he is as good as anyone out there.

I am curious about the part underlined above. Which driver on the current grid do you consider beatable even when he is in the zone?


All??

Stella raised a nice example though.

In shanghai 2007, the secret of kimi 's victory was he able to set competitive lap time on the worn out tyre, while lewis just struggle, allow kimi to close up and overtook him for the victory. Of course, people slam kimi for being lucky in the end which i think is laughable.

His 2009 Spa victory also Stella 's favorite when Baddoer finished last, and the team already stop developing the car. Sutil was fast to critisized the kers advantage and adamant he could win in that car. When he replaced Baddoer, he couldn't even get near 1 sec of kimi, and failed to score even 1 points while kimi continue with podium finished and subsequently point finishes.

Kimi also claimed that he drove better than he ever did in 2009

The same stuff i had saw in Hungary 2012, the way kimi jump 3 car in 1 pit stop by pitting later than anyone and set fastest lap over another fastest lap on the worn out tyre. Shame that Kers issues didnt provide him extra boost. 2 more sec gain he will come out in front of lewis out from the pit.

thats how good kimi is when he's in the zone.


Shanghai '07 wasn't really a special performance. All the front runners had the same strategy and Hammo was the only one who couldn't make his tires last. Kimi was 2nd so he was the first guy to benefit from it. As I remember, Alonso with the same strategy also caught Hammo from 20s behind before he pit. Practically it was like Hammo retiring from the lead.

I'm surprised you didn't mention Suzuka '05. Now THAT was worthy of mention.


Everyone had the same strategy but most of them already pitted for normal tyre when the track dried up, and thats when Lewis suffer, while kimi still run similar lap time and hunt him down despite still hanging on worn out inter.

that was the example throwed out by Stella, i would definitely include suzuka 2005 !!


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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:04 am 
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callMEcrazy wrote:
NvrDieYoung wrote:
chinki wrote:
NvrDieYoung wrote:
Stella didnt said kimi struggle in unbalanced car, just that kimi will try very hard to find his comfort zone. When he is in the zone, he is unbeatable, when he's not, he is as good as anyone out there.

I am curious about the part underlined above. Which driver on the current grid do you consider beatable even when he is in the zone?


All??

Stella raised a nice example though.

In shanghai 2007, the secret of kimi 's victory was he able to set competitive lap time on the worn out tyre, while lewis just struggle, allow kimi to close up and overtook him for the victory. Of course, people slam kimi for being lucky in the end which i think is laughable.

His 2009 Spa victory also Stella 's favorite when Baddoer finished last, and the team already stop developing the car. Sutil was fast to critisized the kers advantage and adamant he could win in that car. When he replaced Baddoer, he couldn't even get near 1 sec of kimi, and failed to score even 1 points while kimi continue with podium finished and subsequently point finishes.

Kimi also claimed that he drove better than he ever did in 2009

The same stuff i had saw in Hungary 2012, the way kimi jump 3 car in 1 pit stop by pitting later than anyone and set fastest lap over another fastest lap on the worn out tyre. Shame that Kers issues didnt provide him extra boost. 2 more sec gain he will come out in front of lewis out from the pit.

thats how good kimi is when he's in the zone.


Shanghai '07 wasn't really a special performance. All the front runners had the same strategy and Hammo was the only one who couldn't make his tires last. Kimi was 2nd so he was the first guy to benefit from it. As I remember, Alonso with the same strategy also caught Hammo from 20s behind before he pit. Practically it was like Hammo retiring from the lead.

I'm surprised you didn't mention Suzuka '05. Now THAT was worthy of mention.

NvrDieYoung wrote:
Kimi is great racer and great overtakers.

jenson nvr establish himself as great qualifier throughout his career unlike kimi.

Kimi has that quality, he just need more time to find his mojo back. And it seems he does, from race to race continue to improve on that department.

Watch this space for 2013


I don't know. The last time Kimi looked quick in qualifying was in McLaren 7 years ago. He got thrashed in Ferrari even in '07 when he won the title, and he is getting beaten now by a struggling Grisjean. JB is getting thrashed by Hamilton alright, but his qualifying record against Barrichello is quite good. I believe he beat Barrichello in quali over 4 years. But anyway, I wouldn't expect either of them to improve dramatically in quali next season.


trashed in 2007??? He could got pole easily in france, china, silverstone but he went for heavy fuel qualifying. As a results, he won all the three races. His pole in Sao Paolo was ruined by lewis impeding kimi during qualifying, he ended up 3rd.

Thats 7 poles in total. The only year he suffer qualifying in ferrari was 2008. In 2009 he even qualified 2nd in monaco and 3rd in Monza in that dog of a car.

In Enstone it seems that mistake had hampered him rather than speed. He gone through Q1 easily with hard compound unlike his teammate. Set faster lap time in Q2, and in Q3, something always went wrong.

As i said, he already improve significantly, but people will always highlight his flaw, and nvr bother about the improvement. And Grosjean is no slouch, shallow view from armchair fans will always rate the driver based on their CV.


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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:16 am 
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NvrDieYoung wrote:
callMEcrazy wrote:
NvrDieYoung wrote:
chinki wrote:
NvrDieYoung wrote:
Stella didnt said kimi struggle in unbalanced car, just that kimi will try very hard to find his comfort zone. When he is in the zone, he is unbeatable, when he's not, he is as good as anyone out there.

I am curious about the part underlined above. Which driver on the current grid do you consider beatable even when he is in the zone?


All??

Stella raised a nice example though.

In shanghai 2007, the secret of kimi 's victory was he able to set competitive lap time on the worn out tyre, while lewis just struggle, allow kimi to close up and overtook him for the victory. Of course, people slam kimi for being lucky in the end which i think is laughable.

His 2009 Spa victory also Stella 's favorite when Baddoer finished last, and the team already stop developing the car. Sutil was fast to critisized the kers advantage and adamant he could win in that car. When he replaced Baddoer, he couldn't even get near 1 sec of kimi, and failed to score even 1 points while kimi continue with podium finished and subsequently point finishes.

Kimi also claimed that he drove better than he ever did in 2009

The same stuff i had saw in Hungary 2012, the way kimi jump 3 car in 1 pit stop by pitting later than anyone and set fastest lap over another fastest lap on the worn out tyre. Shame that Kers issues didnt provide him extra boost. 2 more sec gain he will come out in front of lewis out from the pit.

thats how good kimi is when he's in the zone.


Shanghai '07 wasn't really a special performance. All the front runners had the same strategy and Hammo was the only one who couldn't make his tires last. Kimi was 2nd so he was the first guy to benefit from it. As I remember, Alonso with the same strategy also caught Hammo from 20s behind before he pit. Practically it was like Hammo retiring from the lead.

I'm surprised you didn't mention Suzuka '05. Now THAT was worthy of mention.

NvrDieYoung wrote:
Kimi is great racer and great overtakers.

jenson nvr establish himself as great qualifier throughout his career unlike kimi.

Kimi has that quality, he just need more time to find his mojo back. And it seems he does, from race to race continue to improve on that department.

Watch this space for 2013


I don't know. The last time Kimi looked quick in qualifying was in McLaren 7 years ago. He got thrashed in Ferrari even in '07 when he won the title, and he is getting beaten now by a struggling Grisjean. JB is getting thrashed by Hamilton alright, but his qualifying record against Barrichello is quite good. I believe he beat Barrichello in quali over 4 years. But anyway, I wouldn't expect either of them to improve dramatically in quali next season.


trashed in 2007??? He could got pole easily in france, china, silverstone but he went for heavy fuel qualifying. As a results, he won all the three races. His pole in Sao Paolo was ruined by lewis impeding kimi during qualifying, he ended up 3rd.

Thats 7 poles in total. The only year he suffer qualifying in ferrari was 2008. In 2009 he even qualified 2nd in monaco and 3rd in Monza in that dog of a car.

In Enstone it seems that mistake had hampered him rather than speed. He gone through Q1 easily with hard compound unlike his teammate. Set faster lap time in Q2, and in Q3, something always went wrong.

As i said, he already improve significantly, but people will always highlight his flaw, and nvr bother about the improvement. And Grosjean is no slouch, shallow view from armchair fans will always rate the driver based on their CV.


I don't look at stats that much actually. I used them to argue with you because what else would I use ? Kimi just doesn't look very fast to me in quali in general. This season has been the ultimate quali test. No variable fuel loads just flat out quali. He isn't fairing so well against a guy who last raced when he did. So what am I to think ? Armchair or whatever. Some of the greatest discoveries were made by people sitting in armchairs by the way, theoretical physicists :D

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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:21 am 
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callMEcrazy wrote:


I don't look at stats that much actually. I used them to argue with you because what else would I use ? Kimi just doesn't look very fast to me in quali in general. This season has been the ultimate quali test. No variable fuel loads just flat out quali. He isn't fairing so well against a guy who last raced when he did. So what am I to think ? Armchair or whatever. Some of the greatest discoveries were made by people sitting in armchairs by the way, theoretical physicists :D


i remember alonso completely lose out in qualifying to Lewis during 2007. On that time no people rated Lewis, and slam him for being immature.

Now he trash massa, although the latter seems struggle for most of the season, only regain his mojo after 2nd half of the season.

So, plenty to expect from in 2013.

Edit: me neither, i just remember those racing moment and results. Stats do not tell the whole stories, the best argument would be combining facts and stats.


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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 6:00 am 
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NvrDieYoung wrote:
callMEcrazy wrote:


I don't look at stats that much actually. I used them to argue with you because what else would I use ? Kimi just doesn't look very fast to me in quali in general. This season has been the ultimate quali test. No variable fuel loads just flat out quali. He isn't fairing so well against a guy who last raced when he did. So what am I to think ? Armchair or whatever. Some of the greatest discoveries were made by people sitting in armchairs by the way, theoretical physicists :D


i remember alonso completely lose out in qualifying to Lewis during 2007. On that time no people rated Lewis, and slam him for being immature.

Now he trash massa, although the latter seems struggle for most of the season, only regain his mojo after 2nd half of the season.

So, plenty to expect from in 2013.

Edit: me neither, i just remember those racing moment and results. Stats do not tell the whole stories, the best argument would be combining facts and stats.


The OP asked the question on next season. Maybe Kimi was great in quali in McLaren and maybe Alonso was awful at McLaren but all those things are a long time ago now. I'd go with whats been happening recently and my choice is greatly helped by the fact that quali is no longer with fuel loads these days. Kimi has generally seemed poor at quali, but JB has seemed worse overall. So I went with Kimi, if you read my first post. Alonso these days is great in quali. I would only put Vettel and Hamilton above him in that list.

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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 6:24 am 
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I dont know why, but somehow jenson is boring most of the times.... his race in austin was pretty unlike him..... Its a totally personal opinion without any statistics... I just find Kimi's race to be more entertaining than jenson mostly...

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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 6:42 am 
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callMEcrazy wrote:
NvrDieYoung wrote:
callMEcrazy wrote:


I don't look at stats that much actually. I used them to argue with you because what else would I use ? Kimi just doesn't look very fast to me in quali in general. This season has been the ultimate quali test. No variable fuel loads just flat out quali. He isn't fairing so well against a guy who last raced when he did. So what am I to think ? Armchair or whatever. Some of the greatest discoveries were made by people sitting in armchairs by the way, theoretical physicists :D


i remember alonso completely lose out in qualifying to Lewis during 2007. On that time no people rated Lewis, and slam him for being immature.

Now he trash massa, although the latter seems struggle for most of the season, only regain his mojo after 2nd half of the season.

So, plenty to expect from in 2013.

Edit: me neither, i just remember those racing moment and results. Stats do not tell the whole stories, the best argument would be combining facts and stats.


The OP asked the question on next season. Maybe Kimi was great in quali in McLaren and maybe Alonso was awful at McLaren but all those things are a long time ago now. I'd go with whats been happening recently and my choice is greatly helped by the fact that quali is no longer with fuel loads these days. Kimi has generally seemed poor at quali, but JB has seemed worse overall. So I went with Kimi, if you read my first post. Alonso these days is great in quali. I would only put Vettel and Hamilton above him in that list.


and my arguments are greatly backed by the facts that kimi often qualify with much higher fuel load and still clinch pole =)

As for alonso, nt really. he can only trash massa that underperform. When massa regained his mojo, he can trash alonso despite having old updates onboard. Although massa had regain it abit too late.....

2013 will be fun =)


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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:50 pm 
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NvrDieYoung wrote:
chinki wrote:
NvrDieYoung wrote:
Stella didnt said kimi struggle in unbalanced car, just that kimi will try very hard to find his comfort zone. When he is in the zone, he is unbeatable, when he's not, he is as good as anyone out there.

I am curious about the part underlined above. Which driver on the current grid do you consider beatable even when he is in the zone?


All??

I am sorry but are you saying that Kimi is the only driver unbeatable on a given day or are you saying even he can be beaten.


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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:31 pm 
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Kimi and Jensen would be great on the same team!

But, Kimi would be faster. He just seems hungrier. I'm a fan of both of them but Jensen seems "safer" than Kimi. It seems that drivers who are prepared to push just a bit over the edge either do very well or are reckless disasters. Kimi seems to me to have the hunger and Jensen seems more the "pro". Back when he was with Ferrari Kimi frustrated me because of this but he seems more mature now, with both the hunger and the consistency. Jensen seems a forever #2 man to me now.


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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:31 pm 
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Kimi with Button at McLaren? Great, the two drivers i like the most on the same team !!

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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:28 pm 
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Kimi would destroy Jenson. He's a much better racer and much faster too. He's also a lot less sensitive to car setup, not to say that he doesn't like the car just so.

Whoever it was earlier in the thread saying Kimi is a so-so qualifier is hilarious. Typical sport fans only looking at recent form.


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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:36 pm 
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callMEcrazy wrote:
JB is getting thrashed by Hamilton alright, but his qualifying record against Barrichello is quite good. I believe he beat Barrichello in quali over 4 years.


I've actually compiled that data for my ex-blog back in 2009 when the season was over.

Qualy:

Qualifyings: 70
Fastest on qualy: Rubens 36 x 34 Jenson
Pole-positions: Rubens 1 x 5 Jenson
Seconds: Rubens 3 x 3 Jenson
Thirds: Rubens 7 x 2 Jenson

2006 - Total - Rubens 9 x Jenson 9
2007 - Total - Rubens 7 x Jenson 10
2008 - Total - Rubens 10 x Jenson 8
2009 - Total - Rubens 10 x Jenson 7

Source: http://splash-and-go.blogspot.com.br/20 ... va_09.html

Race:

Races: 70
Points given: 1260
Points earned by both drivers: 278

Points - Rubens 118 x 160 Jenson
Ahead on track - Rubens 28 x 39 Jenson
Ahead on track when both finished - Rubens 16 x 30 Jenson

Podiums - Rubens 7 x 12 Jenson
Wins - Rubens 2 x 7 Jenson
Seconds - Rubens 3 x 1 Jenson
Thirds - Rubens 2 x 4 Jenson
On the points (with podiums) - Rubens 28 x 31 Jenson
DNF's - Rubens 10 x 14 Jenson
DSQ - Rubens 1 x 0 Jenson

Rubens' average points per race: 1,68
Jenson's average points per race: 2,28

Source: http://splash-and-go.blogspot.com.br/20 ... itiva.html


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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:22 pm 
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Must remember that Jenson has just one pole in three years at McLaren, where he has had at all times virtually a car that is good enough for top 5. By the same token I think it is slightly fanciful to think that Kimi in terms of his quali pace is as good as he was circa 2005 (When he was amazing) I mentioned the other day that his qualifying at certain races this season has cost him race wins.

Both are very good in the race though, and Kimi's racecraft is second to none wish he was at McLaren next season alongside Lewis as Lewis would probably beat him most of the time in quali but Kimi could come back in the race.

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Respect: Eyebrow man, Schumi and finally after three long years Sebastian Vettel. Fairplay to the guy he is quick!
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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:58 pm 
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Posts: 31
So here's my 2 cents worth...

I'm not digging up old figures or data etc, this is just my opinion.

Personally, I think Jenson drove a fantastic race at Austin. Lots of great overtakes, skilled overtakes at that. Out there, BOTH Mclaren boys had a good time. That car hooked up for them both in Austin. But Jenson seemed to have something in him at Austin. Truly, some great, ballsy, well thought out and fair 'drivers driving'. He knew it, and so did everyone he battled with.

Loved the handshake with Kimi.

Here's what I think is happening/gonna happen. Mclaren, are starting to get a an idea or testing some ideas they have for next years car, which we can all probably assume is going to be based mostly on Jensons input and for him.

I think he's going to have a stonker of a year in 2013. Personally, I don't buy into the whole 'he only won in 2009 because of the car'. It was THAT man in THAT machine.

Much like Vettel today, and for the last few years.

For me, It's not that Button needs a speed advantage, he just needs his own advantage. As in, he just needs a car he understands and that he can set up as needed. If he/the team can do this, he is near unbeatable.

So I think next year he's going to do it again. I think the team have naturally gravitated towards him, especially now with Hamilton leaving (for better or worse, who knows for a few years). I think the team will concentrate on Button, and see Perez as a long term project (at least for the first year).

I just have a feeling Button has one more WDC in him, and after 3 years with Mclaren, I think it will be with them. Mclaren and Button just seem happy together.

Excuse the spelling and grammar. I'm a bottle of red down.

PS

I am loving having Kimi back though. I love his driving and his whole 'this is a load of bullshit, I just wanna drive a fast car against the best' attitude.

I think Kimi and Button would make a good pairing actually. Wouldn't cause any inter team issues, but are mature enough drivers to be able to actually race each other. I loved their battle, and so did they.


Last edited by afterworks on Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:37 am 
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Posts: 908
Location: Upsate NY, USA
This thread started off so good, and has gone downhill quite quickly.
I'm not one to point the finger, but NvrDieYoung you are the main reason for this thread going downhill.
Everyone else is staying on topic having a balanced discussion and you are over there flailing your arms like some crazed fanboy.
It makes me embarrassed 1) for you 2) to be a fellow Kimi fan next to you.
Lunatic, you were also instigating NvrDieYoung too, but I don't blame you as much.

Report this post if you like, I'm just trying to get the thread back on track ;)

afterworks wrote:
So here's my 2 cents worth...

I'm not digging up old figures or data etc, this is just my opinion.

Personally, I think Jenson drove a fantastic race at Austin. Lots of great overtakes, skilled overtakes at that. Out there, BOTH Mclaren boys had a good time. That car hooked up for them both in Austin. But Jenson seemed to have something in him at Austin. Truly, some great, ballsy, well thought out and fair 'drivers driving'. He knew it, and so did everyone he battled with.

Loved the handshake with Kimi.

Here's what I think is happening/gonna happen. Mclaren, are starting to get a an idea or testing some ideas they have for next years car, which we can all probably assume is going to be based mostly on Jensons input and for him.

I think he's going to have a stonker of a year in 2013. Personally, I don't buy into the whole 'he only won in 2009 because of the car'. It was THAT man in THAT machine.

Much like Vettel today, and for the last few years.

For me, It's not that Button needs a speed advantage, he just needs his own advantage. As in, he just needs a car he understands and that he can set up as needed. If he/the team can do this, he is near unbeatable.

So I think next year he's going to do it again. I think the team have naturally gravitated towards him, especially now with Hamilton leaving (for better or worse, who knows for a few years). I think the team will concentrate on Button, and see Perez as a long term project (at least for the first year).

I just have a feeling Button has one more WDC in him, and after 3 years with Mclaren, I think it will be with them. Mclaren and Button just seem happy together.

Excuse the spelling and grammar. I'm a bottle of red down.
+1
I'm very much looking forward to next season already.
Lewis will get to prove his worth at Merc, and Button can shine at McLaren.
Kimi will also be better next year assuming that Lotus are able to provide a good car (I'm expecting their car to be better than this years).
Ferrari and Red Bull will be the same to watch, but still interesting.
I think McLaren will have the fastest car next year followed by Red Bull, Lotus, and Ferrari.
I'm expecting another close season.
It should be good stuff. :smug:


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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:43 am 
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Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:09 am
Posts: 316
xECKSx58 wrote:
This thread started off so good, and has gone downhill quite quickly.
I'm not one to point the finger, but NvrDieYoung you are the main reason for this thread going downhill.
Everyone else is staying on topic having a balanced discussion and you are over there flailing your arms like some crazed fanboy.
It makes me embarrassed 1) for you 2) to be a fellow Kimi fan next to you.
Lunatic, you were also instigating NvrDieYoung too, but I don't blame you as much.

Report this post if you like, I'm just trying to get the thread back on track ;)


if you look at my post, i always include facts in my discussion while others just went for general stereotypic statement.

If using facts to discuss embarrass you so much, well suit yourself.

I like how you defend lunatic when all his claims were nth more than bs when he rate the car by speed trap alone.

Edit :

Im embarrass that kimi has a fan like you who detest facts and allow others to throw insults on him with joy.


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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:48 am 
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Posts: 908
Location: Upsate NY, USA
I'm not arguing with you.
This is precisely why you're ruining this thread.


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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 1:02 am 
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Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:09 am
Posts: 316
xECKSx58 wrote:
I'm not arguing with you.
This is precisely why you're ruining this thread.


said the guy who throw the bomb first

People like you who cant use fact to discuss are the reason for discussion to crumble down to pure blinkers general accusation posts.


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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 1:12 am 
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Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2012 12:59 pm
Posts: 31
xECKSx58 wrote:
This thread started off so good, and has gone downhill quite quickly.
I'm not one to point the finger, but NvrDieYoung you are the main reason for this thread going downhill.
Everyone else is staying on topic having a balanced discussion and you are over there flailing your arms like some crazed fanboy.
It makes me embarrassed 1) for you 2) to be a fellow Kimi fan next to you.
Lunatic, you were also instigating NvrDieYoung too, but I don't blame you as much.

Report this post if you like, I'm just trying to get the thread back on track ;)

afterworks wrote:
So here's my 2 cents worth...

I'm not digging up old figures or data etc, this is just my opinion.

Personally, I think Jenson drove a fantastic race at Austin. Lots of great overtakes, skilled overtakes at that. Out there, BOTH Mclaren boys had a good time. That car hooked up for them both in Austin. But Jenson seemed to have something in him at Austin. Truly, some great, ballsy, well thought out and fair 'drivers driving'. He knew it, and so did everyone he battled with.

Loved the handshake with Kimi.

Here's what I think is happening/gonna happen. Mclaren, are starting to get a an idea or testing some ideas they have for next years car, which we can all probably assume is going to be based mostly on Jensons input and for him.

I think he's going to have a stonker of a year in 2013. Personally, I don't buy into the whole 'he only won in 2009 because of the car'. It was THAT man in THAT machine.

Much like Vettel today, and for the last few years.

For me, It's not that Button needs a speed advantage, he just needs his own advantage. As in, he just needs a car he understands and that he can set up as needed. If he/the team can do this, he is near unbeatable.

So I think next year he's going to do it again. I think the team have naturally gravitated towards him, especially now with Hamilton leaving (for better or worse, who knows for a few years). I think the team will concentrate on Button, and see Perez as a long term project (at least for the first year).

I just have a feeling Button has one more WDC in him, and after 3 years with Mclaren, I think it will be with them. Mclaren and Button just seem happy together.

Excuse the spelling and grammar. I'm a bottle of red down.
+1
I'm very much looking forward to next season already.

- me to, I think LH will do better than expected next year, but still struggle with the car, and even he won't be able to turn that boat around. But, 2014 seems to be what they're banking on so we won't know until then whether LM and Merc are able to do it

Lewis will get to prove his worth at Merc, and Button can shine at McLaren.

-What I'm hoping happens, is that JB wins it next year. It'll be close with the RB and Ferrari, but he'll just hook it up. Lewis and Merc will be top midfield, occasionally pop their head up on tracks it suits but otherwise not top dogs. However, in 2014 both Lewis and Jenson, in top machinery, at different teams battling it out

Kimi will also be better next year assuming that Lotus are able to provide a good car (I'm expecting their car to be better than this years).
Ferrari and Red Bull will be the same to watch, but still interesting.
I think McLaren will have the fastest car next year followed by Red Bull, Lotus, and Ferrari.

- Agreed

I'm expecting another close season.

-Agreed

It should be good stuff. :smug:

Certainly hope so!


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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 5:46 am 
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Kimi fans fight! yayy

*grabs some popcorn*


Back on topic. I think I'm more bummed that we are prevented from such a pairing at McLaren next year. It was almost painful not to see Kimi next to Hamilton in 2010 and this is another punch in the gutt

I still think Kimi would fair much better than Button, especially that McLaren knows how to deal with him and they knew how to extract the best of him

It's a loss to all of F1 fans not to see Kimi in a top tier team. He's already providing us with great entertaining drivers in a midfield car, so it would've been nice to see him in McLaren again, or a Redbull


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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 6:07 am 
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Posts: 226
its should be like this:

jenson(to his liking) vs kimi (F1 adaptation) 2012
jenson(to his liking) vs kimi (adapted to F1) 2013
jenson(to his liking) vs kimi (at his close best) 2014?

jenson will beat kimi most of the time vs 2012 kimi
he would be neck and neck with kimi if kimi adapted well back into the sport.
jenson will be lagging behind kimi if kimi is at his close best

provided jenson's weekend is always to his likings, which is not happening all the time.

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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:23 am 
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Posts: 1006
Daniel Gallagher wrote:
callMEcrazy wrote:
JB is getting thrashed by Hamilton alright, but his qualifying record against Barrichello is quite good. I believe he beat Barrichello in quali over 4 years.


I've actually compiled that data for my ex-blog back in 2009 when the season was over.

Qualy:

Qualifyings: 70
Fastest on qualy: Rubens 36 x 34 Jenson
Pole-positions: Rubens 1 x 5 Jenson
Seconds: Rubens 3 x 3 Jenson
Thirds: Rubens 7 x 2 Jenson

2006 - Total - Rubens 9 x Jenson 9
2007 - Total - Rubens 7 x Jenson 10
2008 - Total - Rubens 10 x Jenson 8
2009 - Total - Rubens 10 x Jenson 7

Source: http://splash-and-go.blogspot.com.br/20 ... va_09.html

Race:

Races: 70
Points given: 1260
Points earned by both drivers: 278

Points - Rubens 118 x 160 Jenson
Ahead on track - Rubens 28 x 39 Jenson
Ahead on track when both finished - Rubens 16 x 30 Jenson

Podiums - Rubens 7 x 12 Jenson
Wins - Rubens 2 x 7 Jenson
Seconds - Rubens 3 x 1 Jenson
Thirds - Rubens 2 x 4 Jenson
On the points (with podiums) - Rubens 28 x 31 Jenson
DNF's - Rubens 10 x 14 Jenson
DSQ - Rubens 1 x 0 Jenson

Rubens' average points per race: 1,68
Jenson's average points per race: 2,28

Source: http://splash-and-go.blogspot.com.br/20 ... itiva.html


Thanks for providing the stats but I picked Kimi anyway. I was just pointing out that JB's quali record isn't all that bad when compared to Kimi. Kimi is slightly better maybe, but not by much. Neither of them are as good as Alonso or Rosberg, let alone Vettel and Hamilton.

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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:11 am 
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F1nsider wrote:
Kimi fans fight! yayy

*grabs some popcorn*


Back on topic. I think I'm more bummed that we are prevented from such a pairing at McLaren next year. It was almost painful not to see Kimi next to Hamilton in 2010 and this is another punch in the gutt

I still think Kimi would fair much better than Button, especially that McLaren knows how to deal with him and they knew how to extract the best of him

It's a loss to all of F1 fans not to see Kimi in a top tier team. He's already providing us with great entertaining drivers in a midfield car, so it would've been nice to see him in McLaren again, or a Redbull

This :thumbup:

I so wanted to have Kimi and Lewis in the same team. I think McLaren understand Kimi's driving style better than anyone else so far and there would have been some epic battles.

Again this year, I was convinced that McLaren would take Kimi back after Lewis left. I know MW is a huge fan of his and Kimi has hinted that they tried, so I think it's a real shame that he doesn't appear to want to go back. And, I have to say, I fear that it's a big mistake if true. I think he's ultimately better than Jenson but tbh when Jenson has a car to suit he's exceptionally strong too.


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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:44 am 
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For me this year, even though Kimi has driven outstandingly he just doesn't seem sharp.

dont get me wrong I just feel he has more potential, wether its the car or the driver I cant say as grosjean is a very bad marker to compare against.

In his current form I think Jenson could very easily take it to Kimi and they would be very equal.


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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:46 pm 
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Kimi shares the same problem in Qualifying ... alongwith Button. Not such a bad thing if race pace makes up for it.
Actually Alonso under qualifies most of the time giving the impression that Ferrari is a dog.


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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:42 am 
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Posts: 316
callMEcrazy wrote:
Daniel Gallagher wrote:
callMEcrazy wrote:
JB is getting thrashed by Hamilton alright, but his qualifying record against Barrichello is quite good. I believe he beat Barrichello in quali over 4 years.


I've actually compiled that data for my ex-blog back in 2009 when the season was over.

Qualy:

Qualifyings: 70
Fastest on qualy: Rubens 36 x 34 Jenson
Pole-positions: Rubens 1 x 5 Jenson
Seconds: Rubens 3 x 3 Jenson
Thirds: Rubens 7 x 2 Jenson

2006 - Total - Rubens 9 x Jenson 9
2007 - Total - Rubens 7 x Jenson 10
2008 - Total - Rubens 10 x Jenson 8
2009 - Total - Rubens 10 x Jenson 7

Source: http://splash-and-go.blogspot.com.br/20 ... va_09.html

Race:

Races: 70
Points given: 1260
Points earned by both drivers: 278

Points - Rubens 118 x 160 Jenson
Ahead on track - Rubens 28 x 39 Jenson
Ahead on track when both finished - Rubens 16 x 30 Jenson

Podiums - Rubens 7 x 12 Jenson
Wins - Rubens 2 x 7 Jenson
Seconds - Rubens 3 x 1 Jenson
Thirds - Rubens 2 x 4 Jenson
On the points (with podiums) - Rubens 28 x 31 Jenson
DNF's - Rubens 10 x 14 Jenson
DSQ - Rubens 1 x 0 Jenson

Rubens' average points per race: 1,68
Jenson's average points per race: 2,28

Source: http://splash-and-go.blogspot.com.br/20 ... itiva.html


Thanks for providing the stats but I picked Kimi anyway. I was just pointing out that JB's quali record isn't all that bad when compared to Kimi. Kimi is slightly better maybe, but not by much. Neither of them are as good as Alonso or Rosberg, let alone Vettel and Hamilton.


neither of those you mentioned manage to get poles on overfueled car!!!

so no, kimi has greater potential than any of them in qualifying, need to find back his mojo thats all.

And alonso was trashed by trulli in 2004, jarno manage to get 2 or 4 poles, cant remember and a win, while he failed.

He was overhype when massa underperform, in austin and lesser car with lesser updates, massa brings out 5 tenths gap to alonso.

It proves that an on form massa cna trash him anytime even when he didnt receive the new update.


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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:55 am 
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Somebody please explain to me how and why is Grsojean even considered to be as fast, in terms of absolute race pace, as Kimi? I just think that using qualification as a proving ground for "absolute pace" is wrong because you get what 10 laps maybe to show what your speed is whereas during the race you have 50 laps to do the same.

So, basically I think if we really want to compare the speeds of Kimi and Grosjean then instead of looking at Qualifying we should look at the personal best times that they have set during the race. Any thoughts?


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 Post subject: Re: Jenson vs Kimi?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:00 am 
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Posts: 316
ic3man wrote:
Somebody please explain to me how and why is Grsojean even considered to be as fast, in terms of absolute race pace, as Kimi? I just think that using qualification as a proving ground for "absolute pace" is wrong because you get what 10 laps maybe to show what your speed is whereas during the race you have 50 laps to do the same.

So, basically I think if we really want to compare the speeds of Kimi and Grosjean then instead of looking at Qualifying we should look at the personal best times that they have set during the race. Any thoughts?


no need for any of that, if you watch back all the qualifying, it was due to kimi 's mistake in q3 that he loses out. prior to that he get through q1 with hard compound while romain on soft, faster than romain on q2.

Just eliminate mistakes, thats all.


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