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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 11:19 pm 
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Vettel has a habit of making cars look far more dominating than they really are, such is his ability to control a race.

I think this ability is most strongly visible in the excuses/conspiracy theories that emerge whenever redbull is on song at a particular venue and webber is entirely unable to match him. People assume that the red bull is by far and away the best car on the grid and the only reason webber must not be doing well is because red bull are sabotaging him.

Also, we see conspiracy theories along the lines of "Why are redbull suddenly so fast". The truth is they arent, the truth is when vettel has the best package by any margin on a particular day he almost without exception will deliver a dominating performance. It has become clear that this is by far his biggest strength.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 12:01 am 
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This year has been more about tyres, and the Redbull has been excellent on tyres and the macca has been the worse of the top three in fact macca prob isn't in the top five, Macca might be fast in the race but when their stratagies are compromised by their shocking tyre wear it kinda negates that speed advantage, Austin showed (with its indestructable tyres) what the macca could be, All in all the Redbull has by far been the better package only lacking in top speed to the others but having them all completely licked in every other area (drivers not included).

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 12:02 am 
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See what Intelligent F1 has to say about the cars' pace in Friday practice. Very interesting.

http://intelligentf1.wordpress.com/2012 ... -analysis/


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 1:10 am 
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lunatic wrote:
This year has been more about tyres, and the Redbull has been excellent on tyres and the macca has been the worse of the top three in fact macca prob isn't in the top five, Macca might be fast in the race but when their stratagies are compromised by their shocking tyre wear it kinda negates that speed advantage, Austin showed (with its indestructable tyres) what the macca could be, All in all the Redbull has by far been the better package only lacking in top speed to the others but having them all completely licked in every other area (drivers not included).

There's a lot of truth here although I would say that the McLaren was faster in the first 3 races than the Red Bull. It was also clearly faster at Monza, Spa and it seems to be quicker here in Brazil. A lot of posters in here seem to forget the middle part of the season where Red Bull was often dominant on pace.

The idea that Red Bull's pace is a myth is kind of silly. Vettel has only outqualified Webber 12-8 so it's not like he's the only one with pace. As lunatic has pointed out in the post above, the Red Bull team have done better with tires than their main rivals and that has been crucial all season. Either McLaren or Red Bull have been fastest in most of the races but the Red Bull has been more reliable and their team of mechanics and engineers has performed on a completely different level than McLaren's.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 5:13 am 
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Hi there are some good observations on this thread, although I cannot say for sure which of the 2 had the fastest car
here is what I can say

the main reason Seb is winning, is that Red Bull is the best TEAM and I give them alot of credit for that I love how they run there
team (don't care about claims of cheating like some will say) as they probably all do anyway

They have the best TEAM, they come up with the best strategies
This is a team run by a pure business man and it shows, there mentality
They don't accept anything but perfection
They understood that to win championships you cannot compromise your faster driver to make your slower driver look better
life is unfair and its not Withmarsh Job to make it fair, let God do that
thats not how Mclaren will win championships

Although I want Alonso to Win, my Respect for Vettel has gone up, and that Red Bull Team Demands respect and they deserve it


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 5:33 am 
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The red bull is superfast atleast in quali.The problem for vettel is his team mate is too inconsistent to provide a reasonable benchmark.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 5:47 am 
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justloveracing wrote:
Hi there are some good observations on this thread, although I cannot say for sure which of the 2 had the fastest car
here is what I can say

the main reason Seb is winning, is that Red Bull is the best TEAM and I give them alot of credit for that I love how they run there
team (don't care about claims of cheating like some will say) as they probably all do anyway

They have the best TEAM, they come up with the best strategies
This is a team run by a pure business man and it shows, there mentality
They don't accept anything but perfection
They understood that to win championships you cannot compromise your faster driver to make your slower driver look better
life is unfair and its not Withmarsh Job to make it fair, let God do that
thats not how Mclaren will win championships

Although I want Alonso to Win, my Respect for Vettel has gone up, and that Red Bull Team Demands respect and they deserve it

Good grief! I was taking your post seriously until that line :(


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:43 am 
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sandyf1 wrote:
The red bull is superfast atleast in quali.The problem for vettel is his team mate's car is too inconsistent to provide a reasonable benchmark.

Fixed it for you. ;)


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:53 am 
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nutyo wrote:
sandyf1 wrote:
The red bull is superfast atleast in quali.The problem for vettel is his team mate's car is too inconsistent to provide a reasonable benchmark.

Fixed it for you. ;)

Thanks , but i prefer my version...


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:46 am 
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The point is that RBR won the WCC without major problems, correct me if I'm wrong but they've led it from the first races and never lost the lead in the standings, so it's the best car this year. McLaren may have had the fastest but they've not been as strong as RBR througout the whole season.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:47 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
lunatic wrote:
This year has been more about tyres, and the Redbull has been excellent on tyres and the macca has been the worse of the top three in fact macca prob isn't in the top five, Macca might be fast in the race but when their stratagies are compromised by their shocking tyre wear it kinda negates that speed advantage, Austin showed (with its indestructable tyres) what the macca could be, All in all the Redbull has by far been the better package only lacking in top speed to the others but having them all completely licked in every other area (drivers not included).

There's a lot of truth here although I would say that the McLaren was faster in the first 3 races than the Red Bull. It was also clearly faster at Monza, Spa and it seems to be quicker here in Brazil. A lot of posters in here seem to forget the middle part of the season where Red Bull was often dominant on pace.

The idea that Red Bull's pace is a myth is kind of silly. Vettel has only outqualified Webber 12-8 so it's not like he's the only one with pace. As lunatic has pointed out in the post above, the Red Bull team have done better with tires than their main rivals and that has been crucial all season. Either McLaren or Red Bull have been fastest in most of the races but the Red Bull has been more reliable and their team of mechanics and engineers has performed on a completely different level than McLaren's.


The McLaren was also faster in Belgium, Canada, Hungary, Italy, Spain (Hamilton was demoted to the back of the grid and still finished 8th) and Singapore, where Hamilton retired from the lead.

And even Lewis Hamilton said it himself, they had the fastest car this year, but they messed it up with their (un)reliability and with ridiculous pit stops early in the season.

The tyre thing is just not true. While its possibly true that Red Bull have been marginally better on tyres, the McLaren has not done terribly on tyres either. At least, Lewis Hamilton did really well with those tyres. He has won 4 races, might well win a fifth, and retired from the lead (dominant leads I might add) in 2. He also had one pole position taken off him in Spain (Barcelona) from which he could have conceivably won the race. The bottom line is that were it not for reliability and the team's mistakes, it might not even have been close.

In any case, the bottom line is that Red Bull do not get enough credit for maximising what they had. That seems to be reserved for Alonso/Ferrari. This myth has been created that the Red Bull is so fast that Hamilton is doing an excellent job in keeping it behind him. Nothing could be further from the truth. The McLaren has more often than not been the faster car, and Hamilton winning is him doing what we should expect of him in that car. Yes, Red Bull had a purple patch where they won four on the trot, but they were clearly not as quick as the McLaren in Singapore, and a mechanical failure on Hamilton's car makes the comparison difficult in Korea. The Ferrari may even have been quicker in Japan. Felipe Massa started 10th and wound up 2nd too. So Red Bull got lucky in that part of the season, and the record will show them looking more dominant than they have actually been.

Of the last 7 races, Red Bull have been quicker at 3 races, while McLaren have been quicker at 4.

In fact, if we go back to Hungary, McLaren have been quicker at 6 races, while Red Bull have been quicker at 3.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 12:06 pm 
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kls2020 wrote:
"So what you're saying is, were it not for failures Lewis Hamilton would be world champion."

to quote a co-worker of mine

"If my Aunt had balls she'd be my Uncle ! "


:lol: :lol: I'll be using that one! haha!!

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o·ver·rat·ed - overestimation of skills or abilities, anything that is given too much credit and hype.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 2:19 pm 
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Well let's give it an honest appraisal between McLaren and Red Bull, shall we?

1. Australia-McLaren were faster here though the difference was primarily in qualifying and not the race.
2. Malaysia-McLaren were again faster though the race was turned into such a lottery that they didn't really capitalize.
3. Chinese Grand Prix-McLaren were faster
4. Bahrain-Red Bull were faster
5. Barcelona-McLaren were faster though their failure to fuel Hamilton properly in Q3 probably cost them the win
6. Monaco-Red Bull were faster
7. Canada-It's funny that someone suggested McLaren were clearly faster here. Red Bull seemed to be faster but chose the wrong tire strategy during the race. Vettel was on pole and Button didn't even make Q3. This one goes to the RB8.
8. Valencia-Red Bull were faster though Vettel's mechanical failure probably cost him the win
9. Silverstone-Red Bull were faster
10. Germany-Red Bull were faster
11. Hungary-McLaren were faster
12. Spa-Mclaren were faster
13. Monza-McLaren were faster
14. Singapore-McLaren were faster
15. Japan-Red Bull were faster
16. Korea-Red Bull were faster
17. India-Red Bull were faster
18. Abu Dhabi-Too close to call honestly. Hamilton seemed to have phenomenal pace but Button wasn't particularly quick in either qualifying or the race. This was also a race where Vettel didn't nail his qualy lap and was outqualified by Webber. During the race his pace seemed pretty even with Lewis overall. I really can't call this one.
19. US Grand Prix-This is another one that's too close to call. Vettel took pole but Hamilton took the win. Even when Hamilton passed Vettel, it wasn't like he just left him behind. Button was not up there in qualifying and we've seen that in races where McLaren truly have dominant pace, Button will put it on the front row. I'd say they were fairly even here as well.
20. The race hasn't happened yet but I'd say McLaren have been the fastest here.

So head-to-head, we basically have a tie. 9 races where McLaren had the edge, 9 where Red Bull had the edge and 2 where it was too close to call. Even if you dispute a few of the conclusions here, I think it's pretty obvious that the cars were relatively evenly matched when you look at the entirety of the season. That means that driver performance, team execution and strategy were the difference makers.

In terms of driver performance, Hamilton has been pretty much flawless this season. He hasn't made a single major error all year and he has consistently outperformed Button in both qualy and the races. Vettel has been very good but he has had a couple of big mistakes along the way (nothing unusual). Button has been inconsistent as has Webber.

Overall, I think the obvious difference has been that Red Bull have capitalized on their car's pace while McLaren have failed to do so. If we look at Hamilton alone, we can see a disturbingly high number of team errors and mechanical failures that have cost him over 100 points on the season. What's worse, many of these problems have popped up in races where McLaren had the speed advantage. We'd be here all day if we wanted to discuss the positions that he has lost through strategic errors and slow pit-stops. Even through the most conservative view, there are a minimum of 3 race wins that he lost through mech failures and team errors.

Motor racing is a team sport and this season has proven that the performance of the entire team is what will determine the championship. Red Bull have executed better than McLaren. When they have had the pace, they have capitalized and that is why they are ahead in the standings.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:13 pm 
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What major mistakes did Vettel (as usual) do in the season?

No, Hamilton wasn't flawless at all. If he were flawless, he wouldn't have lost to Button in Australia and he would not have been slower than Vettel in a car which had 0.75 on both Red Bulls in qualy...

If you call properly Canada, Abu Dhabi to McLaren, it would have been 11 McLaren's to 8 Red Bull. In Canada McLaren was faster so Red Bull and Ferrari tried to do a one stop less but the gamble did not work out...

Also even in USGP McLaren was just a bitter faster in the race. Lewis managed to enter DRS activativation zone when following Vettel, but Vettel couldn't approach Lewis close enough to operate DRS...


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:20 am 
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To determine how good red bull are, and how good Vettel is, the secret is Webber.

We know the difference between Vettel and Webber. You see the difference between the two in the on track performances.

But has Webber been getting better these last few years, and therefore Vettel clearly is the real deal, or is Webber now an ordinary driver in a great car and there for Vettel is not much above average.

I tend to believe Webber is an inconsistent but very quick driver who is also something very special in qualifying. This means the red bull car is not that fast but has one qualifying expert (Webber) and one even faster amazing one lap driver (Vettel). In race trim, the car has been consistent but not that fast with one driver up with the best of them (Webber) and one of the very very best (Vettel).


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:48 am 
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PacificBeach wrote:
What major mistakes did Vettel (as usual) do in the season?


I'll take this one.
Mistakes that cost him points: illegal pass on Button in Germany, pass on Senna yesterday.
Mistakes that didn't cost him points: pushing Alonso wide in Monza, 2 incidents in Abu Dhabi.

That's about it I think. And this is fairly objective - I was rooting for Vettel.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:51 am 
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FormulaFerrari wrote:
It's the fact that he was being led by the number 2 in the team for such a large part of the season which takes away a lot from Vettel for me personally. Alonso and Hamilton have for the most part always had their teammates under control.


But look at the reason why Webber lead Vettel for some time: Vettel lost 25 points in Valencia and 12 or 15 (depending on your belief he would or would not have gotten Hamilton - my belief is he would) in Malaysia. He would have been on top of his team mate all along if it wasn't for those deserved points.


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