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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:35 am 
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Force India deputy team principal Bob Fernley described the safety car that negated Nico Hulkenberg's early Brazilian Grand Prix lead as "a joke".

Hulkenberg and McLaren rival Jenson Button were 48 seconds clear of the rest of the field by lap 22, having stayed out on slicks in the early rain shower while all rivals pitted for intermediates then had to change back.

But their advantage was reduced when the safety car was summoned so debris could be cleared.

Fernley felt this could have been done under local yellow flags and accused the officials of trying to spice up the race.
Fernley wrote:
"I think the safety car was a joke. I thought we were playing NASCAR, we could've done that debris under double yellow flags.

"We were so far in front with Jenson. When you look at what it takes, from both a driver and a team point of view, to pull it back obviously was a show decision."
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:38 am 
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Bitter much?

Instead of blaming others he should be trying to help Hulk develop as a driver by making sure he don't make two silly key mistakes again costing him a podium, and potentially a win.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:41 am 
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To be fair it wasn't like it was just one corner with debris on it, about half of the circuit seemed littered with debris at the point the SC came out.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:43 am 
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I guess they didn't see Rosberg's puncture

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:44 am 
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Dam_Noir wrote:
To be fair it wasn't like it was just one corner with debris on it, about half of the circuit seemed littered with debris at the point the SC came out.


agreed.

in fact, could be argued the safety car should have been out earlier.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:52 am 
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I agree with Force India but its not the first time we have seen something like this.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:53 am 
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I thought it was a fix... A-man says in radio and boom we had a new race ;)

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:54 am 
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All cars sliding here and there on a wet surface, did we really want people on track with just yellows?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:58 am 
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I'm sure Rosberg wished Whiting had been on his toes and called it earlier ;)

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:12 pm 
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I actually agree on this, they waited and waited - they should have called the safety car right away but they didnt.

If the championship was decided before Brazil I dont think they would have waited more then a second to bring the safety car.

I do find it very interesting at the fact they waited for as long as they did, where as other tracks they tend to call them out asap.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:14 pm 
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As soon as you know who got on the blower about the debris on track, the safety car was out within a few minutes... Just saying.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:20 pm 
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It really was the only safe decision to have a safety car. Rosberg already got a puncture and it could potentially be dangerous to not remove it. And its hard to believe you could send someone out there to pick that up under double waved yellows.

Force India had the pace and Hulkenburg drove brilliantly but he only has himself to blame for losing. He made a mistake losing the lead and then collided with Hamilton trying to get that place back.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:22 pm 
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The problem with the first safety car was that it took so long to deploy. I wanted to see Hülkenberg win it, but as far as I could see from my television, the track was so full of debris it was an obstacle course, and Rosberg's puncture was no coincidence.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:26 pm 
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Debris was a real threat obviously.

Given the choice between a SC and double waved yellows, I think given the slippery conditions seen I'd rather have the pace be very controlled (SC) rather than just drivers "lifting" and the like.

It was unfortunate for JB and Hulk though, but given the situation and how widespread the carnage had been, seems fair enough. Funny that they played Alonso's message right before the SC announcement though.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:30 pm 
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The safety car was the right call.

How ever it's deployment was a bit suspect. There was no sign of it until Alonso came on the blower despite it being very obvious the debris was littering the track.

IMO YMMV etc etc. It really should have been out sooner. I think they were feared to fiddle about with the race too much.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:35 pm 
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It was a bit of a crazy race so my memory of events might be wrong but wasn't it called straight after Rosbergs puncture? Also remembering that we would have heard the Alonso comms later than Whiting heard them. So maybe it was the Rosberg puncture that was the deciding factor rather than Alonso's comms?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:36 pm 
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PzR Slim wrote:
It was a bit of a crazy race so my memory of events might be wrong but wasn't it called straight after Rosbergs puncture? Also remembering that we would have heard the Alonso comms later than Whiting heard them. So maybe it was the Rosberg puncture that was the deciding factor rather than Alonso's comms?

Probably true but it wouldn't be as fun to discuss :D ...

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:38 pm 
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they had to call the safety car, the track was littered with debris,

its harsh for Hulk and Button (turned out ok in the end) but they took a risk and had a 40s window, only to see it gone, hurts a bit, but thats the way it is in F1


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:44 pm 
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Do they ever clear a track under double waved yellows anymore? The safety car did undo the hard work and talent of Hulk and JB who stayed out on slicks

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:47 pm 
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PzR Slim wrote:
It was a bit of a crazy race so my memory of events might be wrong but wasn't it called straight after Rosbergs puncture? Also remembering that we would have heard the Alonso comms later than Whiting heard them. So maybe it was the Rosberg puncture that was the deciding factor rather than Alonso's comms?


I thought he managed to get a few laps in before it came out.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:08 pm 
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They resort to the safety car WAY too much these days. I feel really sorry for Hulkenberg (and Button too, but he went on to win anyway so didn't lose out on anything). They took the risk, the gamble paid off and they were miles ahead, only to have it taken away. The SC gets used almost every race and ruins the racing. I should never have to reach for the remote control to fast-forward 4 laps of a GP.

Sure, it compacts the field and leads to more entertainment, but if that's the case then just send it out every 10 laps and be done with the facade of competition.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:11 pm 
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Yes there was tonnes of debris. F1 has become like bumper cars lately, there are two many kids and amateurs on the grid.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:14 pm 
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I wanted Hulk to win, but thought saftey car was the right decision. Plus if it hadnt came out and hulk got a blowout due to debris then we would be seeing the news story:

"Not bringing out the saftey car was a joke, I thought this was nascar when I saw all the debris on track from cars crashing into each other, from both a driver and a team point of view, to let them drive in such conditions was obviously was a show decision."


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:15 pm 
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Basically agree with Johnston on this. The call hacked me off no end because it killed Hulk amd Button's massive lead, but it was a call that had to be made. Having all that debris scattered around various parts of the circuit was dangerous and with the field spread out on such a short track, there was no way the marshals could clean it up under double yellows.

The timing of it was extremely suspicious though. I'll give FI that.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:20 pm 
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anyone else noticed Alonso's radio message abt debris on the track right before safety car? im not saying that safety car was a result of that message.. but i find it funny that they always communicate in english with messages like these while rest of the time its italian they choose to speak.
but im glad force india raised this issue and i hope it escalates, id like to see some rule changes in next season regarding safety car.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:26 pm 
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stormchaser wrote:
anyone else noticed Alonso's radio message abt debris on the track right before safety car? im not saying that safety car was a result of that message.. but i find it funny that they always communicate in english with messages like these while rest of the time its italian they choose to speak.
but im glad force india raised this issue and i hope it escalates, id like to see some rule changes in next season regarding safety car.



it's not that big a surprise . I think it was Vet who said "This is a message for charlie" during the race.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:31 pm 
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Bitterness doesn't suit Force India.

There were shards and lumps of carbon fibre everywhere, both Mercs had punctures and I believe a couple of others. The SC had to come out to allow the marshells out to get rid of them, the track was slippy off line and the rain was still coming down a little so to have the cars still going round under waved yellows would still have been a little too dangerous. SC was the right call for the safety of the marshells IMO.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:38 pm 
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In the States they showed Alonso's radio "their is a lot of debris on track" Ferrari said "understood" and a minute later the safety car graphic came up :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:41 pm 
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Hakkattack wrote:
In the States they showed Alonso's radio "their is a lot of debris on track" Ferrari said "understood" and a minute later the safety car graphic came up :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Alonso wasn't the only driver on the radio talking about debris. Most of them were. They chose Alonso's TR quite rightly because he was one of the two WDC contenders, hence why they showed Vettel's as well when they were under the SC.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:42 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
Hakkattack wrote:
In the States they showed Alonso's radio "their is a lot of debris on track" Ferrari said "understood" and a minute later the safety car graphic came up :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Alonso wasn't the only driver on the radio talking about debris. Most of them were. They chose Alonso's TR quite rightly because he was one of the two WDC contenders, hence why they showed Vettel's as well when they were under the SC.



relax Laura.. I know... I am just laughing because the timing was so funny


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:44 pm 
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SC was fine. Although I found drive through penalty for that incident which I felt was racing incident harsh. Unless he purposefully kicked the donkey of his car into hamilton I think he lost the rear as a result of greasy track hence penalised for inexperience, Or am I wrong ?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:45 pm 
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Didn't Marko say the Valencia safety car was only brought out to make the race more interesting? If so I guess this one evened things out enabling Seb to challenge for the vital points to win the WDC

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:54 pm 
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Maky wrote:
SC was fine. Although I found drive through penalty for that incident which I felt was racing incident harsh. Unless he purposefully kicked the donkey of his car into hamilton I think he lost the rear as a result of greasy track hence penalised for inexperience, Or am I wrong ?

Penalties aren't handed out *only* for malicious intent. There was nothing malicious about it, but it was *very* careless. You should exercise extra caution when going on the inside of someone in slippery conditions in case this exact thing happens - you slip and hit the other car. All drivers have a responsibility to other drivers to not endanger them or their race. In this case, he made a mistake when he should have been *more* careful and ruined Hamilton's race because of it. Hamilton gave him an entire car's width to his outside yet he *still* got hit. Penalty was entirely fair in this case even though there was no malicious intent.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:57 pm 
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ubergam3r wrote:
I wanted Hulk to win, but thought saftey car was the right decision. Plus if it hadnt came out and hulk got a blowout due to debris then we would be seeing the news story:

"Not bringing out the saftey car was a joke, I thought this was nascar when I saw all the debris on track from cars crashing into each other, from both a driver and a team point of view, to let them drive in such conditions was obviously was a show decision."


Spot on.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:59 pm 
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AngreetRoll wrote:
Maky wrote:
SC was fine. Although I found drive through penalty for that incident which I felt was racing incident harsh. Unless he purposefully kicked the donkey of his car into hamilton I think he lost the rear as a result of greasy track hence penalised for inexperience, Or am I wrong ?

Penalties aren't handed out *only* for malicious intent. There was nothing malicious about it, but it was *very* careless. You should exercise extra caution when going on the inside of someone in slippery conditions in case this exact thing happens - you slip and hit the other car. All drivers have a responsibility to other drivers to not endanger them or their race. In this case, he made a mistake when he should have been *more* careful and ruined Hamilton's race because of it. Hamilton gave him an entire car's width to his outside yet he *still* got hit. Penalty was entirely fair in this case even though there was no malicious intent.


Ironically if Hamilton had squeezed him more, he probably wouldn't have been eliminated because Hulk's car wouldn't have barn-doored having such force to break Hamilton's suspension. Still, clearly Hulk's fault, not a lot anyone could do in difficult conditions to avoid this.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:04 pm 
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stormchaser wrote:
anyone else noticed Alonso's radio message abt debris on the track right before safety car? im not saying that safety car was a result of that message.. but i find it funny that they always communicate in english with messages like these while rest of the time its italian they choose to speak.
but im glad force india raised this issue and i hope it escalates, id like to see some rule changes in next season regarding safety car.

Yeah, i noticed that. I laugh at their language skils, it seems sometimes it's in a type of slang (maybe it's regional, eh mook?) and no one else is meant to understand it....Oh wait :lol:
Well i would agree and hope for some changes next year. I would like clearing the track on double yellows approved, but not just when Alonso can't catch Felipe up Pffft!i'm sure i've seen it on numerous occasions in the past, Spa and Japan spring to mind.
I just don't think any of us realise exactly how big a Fail it was this year for those in red....


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:12 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
The safety car was the right call.

How ever it's deployment was a bit suspect. There was no sign of it until Alonso came on the blower despite it being very obvious the debris was littering the track.

IMO YMMV etc etc. It really should have been out sooner. I think they were feared to fiddle about with the race too much.

We don't know if and what other drivers have been saying about it, but yes, it was right call.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:20 pm 
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AngreetRoll wrote:
Maky wrote:
SC was fine. Although I found drive through penalty for that incident which I felt was racing incident harsh. Unless he purposefully kicked the donkey of his car into hamilton I think he lost the rear as a result of greasy track hence penalised for inexperience, Or am I wrong ?

Penalties aren't handed out *only* for malicious intent. There was nothing malicious about it, but it was *very* careless. You should exercise extra caution when going on the inside of someone in slippery conditions in case this exact thing happens - you slip and hit the other car. All drivers have a responsibility to other drivers to not endanger them or their race. In this case, he made a mistake when he should have been *more* careful and ruined Hamilton's race because of it. Hamilton gave him an entire car's width to his outside yet he *still* got hit. Penalty was entirely fair in this case even though there was no malicious intent.

I see...
I was viewing some old F1 seasons and I came across many incidents where one took out another or damaged other guys car in some way but wasn't given drive through so I was wondering...oh well..


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:26 pm 
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SilverstoneRegular wrote:
Didn't Marko say the Valencia safety car was only brought out to make the race more interesting? If so I guess this one evened things out enabling Seb to challenge for the vital points to win the WDC


What? No, this SC played right in the cards of Alonso, not Vettel.
Think about it: there was a huge gap in front of Alonso, who was P4 (or P5?). He needed a podium at least. SC gave Alonso a shot at podium at that time.
Vettel, on the other hand, also had a gap behind him. The SC closed that gap. On the dry track, Vettel (P5, P6 at the time?) was especially hurting due to lack of top speed and disturbed aerodynamics from the damaged bodywork. Hence Kobayashi was able to overtake and Vettel lost a lot of time.

Without SC, Vettel was very comfortable in that position. The SC made things a lot tighter.


But the SC was the right call. There was too much debris.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:30 pm 
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Maky wrote:
AngreetRoll wrote:
Maky wrote:
SC was fine. Although I found drive through penalty for that incident which I felt was racing incident harsh. Unless he purposefully kicked the donkey of his car into hamilton I think he lost the rear as a result of greasy track hence penalised for inexperience, Or am I wrong ?

Penalties aren't handed out *only* for malicious intent. There was nothing malicious about it, but it was *very* careless. You should exercise extra caution when going on the inside of someone in slippery conditions in case this exact thing happens - you slip and hit the other car. All drivers have a responsibility to other drivers to not endanger them or their race. In this case, he made a mistake when he should have been *more* careful and ruined Hamilton's race because of it. Hamilton gave him an entire car's width to his outside yet he *still* got hit. Penalty was entirely fair in this case even though there was no malicious intent.

I see...
I was viewing some old F1 seasons and I came across many incidents where one took out another or damaged other guys car in some way but wasn't given drive through so I was wondering...oh well..

I was also watching some old races where they were allowed V12 engines and in-race refuelling. It's almost like the rules and the way the stewards hand out penalties has changed over the years...


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