planetf1.com

I have not seen any discussion about all the help Vettel got from other team members and others in gaining his 6th place finish to win the championship. First Mar let him through, then Toro Rosso team driver offered no resistance and his buddy , idiot, highly overated Schumacher moved over to let him through to 6 th position. No other teams are protesting team orders but when Ferrari does the same there is a huge brouhaha raised by all, especially Rd Bull, such hypocrites.

No problem with Massa letting Alonso through?

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http://www.racefan.co.uk

Yeahhhhh................well if youre going in may as well go in both feet first.

Not the same thing. Team orders are legal and have been a part of all kinds of racing since its inception. People from other teams letting drivers through isn't illegal, but it's distasteful, and also un-precedented so far as I know before Toro Rosso came along.

Saubers helped Ferrari quite a few times in the late 90s/early 00s.

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http://www.racefan.co.uk

I too find the hypocrisy from the English particularly their press on this matter to be quite pathetic. Today for instance we had a "Well done Mark" message to Webber as he let Vettel breeze past. Yet none of the usual "anger" over it.

Schumacher's actions today reflect badly on him. His last race he should have been fighting, racing not slowing down to a crawl and then pulling over to let his fellow German past. Also what was with the Torro Rosso at the mid point of the race they were faster then Vettel by a second but then just sat behind him refusing to overtake.

If I am not mistaken, in 1997 title race, rival teams McLaren and Williams had an agreement. Once Villienueve was guaranteed to be world champion he let McLarens thru and Mika Hakkinen won his first race...

If Vettel's team intentionally crashed his teammate to give him a win or they dropped his teammate with bogus gear box change to let him start close to front, etc... all the hell would get loose on the forum...

Oh come on. Why always focus on the easy passes? After facing the wrong way, he had an absolutely flawless race where a lot of things went wrong for him.
- no radio
- pit stop with wrong tyres
- pit stop with right tyres but took very, very long
- Hamilton crashing out in front
- Hulkenberg crashing out in front but rejoining in front of him (putting one extra car between Alonso and him)


It is ironic that it was the rain that actually helped him to gain so much places after him facing the wrong way. On the dry, that RBR was hurting due to a lack of top speed and due to the damage it had suffered. Hence him being stuck after Kobayashi for quite a while.
But as everybody around here always says, rain is the great equalizer and true skills become apparent. And the way he went about in the rain was impressive. He overtook a string of drivers, he didn't put a wheel wrong (unlike Alonso, who made two excursions outside the track) and was really, really quick.

Even without Schumi´s "help", Vettel would still had won the WDC. As for the Toro Rosso, they were close at some point but not 1 second faster just sitting behind Vettel not trying to overtake him.

You do realise Vettel was 2 seconds faster than Schumacher at that point, right? He had nothing on Vettel, so why waste time trying to fight him?

Damage? What damage he was setting fastest laps in that thing. You could probably knock the wing off and it would still go fast.

You're talking about Michael Schumacher. THAT Michael Schumacher.

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"I am a believer, but I start each Grand Prix with 195 liters of fuel behind me," he explains. "I don't rely entirely on God, I rely on Prost."

The Schumacher of old would have run Vettel into the wall before rolling over and having his tummy tickled in that fashion; as much as I hated his first incarnation its almost sad to see the fight leave the old dog in such a way.

What do you mean there isn't any discussion? This is all being discussed across multiple threads at the moment.

Inter-team assistance has been an element of this sport for far longer than Red Bull have had two teams. Sauber have helped Ferrari in the past and they also accepted Ferrari drivers in exchange for reductions on the cost of their engines. In 1997 McLaren and Williams had an agreement to assist Villeneuve in winning the WDC over Schumacher.

Over the course of the season Vettel has had far less assistance from Webber than Alonso's had from Massa and moreover, Vettel's teammate has taken points off him at various points, which hasn't been the case for Alonso. The only time Webber assisted Vettel was in this race and maybe in Abu Dhabi if you consider that Red Bull possibly pitted Webber to get him out of Vettel's way. In this race Massa was playing rear-gunner to Alonso in quite extreme fashion, and something that actually hasn't been discussed is the fact that he was warned by the Race Director for his excessive blocking in doing so, and beyond that in other races Massa has moved out of the way for Alonso and even taken a grid penalty for him.

The Schumacher incident we don't know for sure. I personally hope he did because of the poignancy, but I'm not sure that is actually the case.

But I don't understand people getting annoyed by this sort of thing and directing that at the teams themselves. It has all been going on in Formula 1 for decades. The FIA set the rules and the teams will look for any possible advantage they can gain tactically, technically and on track. If there's a problem with it then direct that at the FIA themselves. However, it's also worth noting that it'll never be removed from the sport - even if the FIA legislate against everything that's being talked about, teams will simply find a way to do it under cover with coded messages, discussions in private and all that.

That's not say I agree with it all going on; I just accept it as part of the complexion of the sport.

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Formerly kai_

Exactly. It's almost as if we have had some kind of dud clone whose wires weren't properly assembled rather then the real Schumi.

For me the real Schumacher left the sport many years ago.

Vettel was still fast but he was seriously lacking top speed, hence why he couldnt overtake Kamui but stayed with DRS distance, and I think the damage in the back of his car played a part in that.

Does it really matter? It is all over , Vettel is now a triple world champion.

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Sebastian Vettel: "I don't praise myself". I am not Fernando Alonso.

It was pretty obvious in the dry period the RBR wasn't as fast as it could be. He was lapping the slowest of the top 7 mid-race.
You're actually going to argue with me over the fact that, in a highly aero dominated sport, loss of several bodyparts doesn't come with a loss of performance?

Also, way to go in ignoring all the other stuff I've written.

When not in contention for the WDC, I don't think he would have put anyone into the wall. And we all know he favours Vettel. But still, Vettel was 2 seconds faster, there's no way he could have held Vettel behind for more than 2 corners.

Short memory

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"I am a believer, but I start each Grand Prix with 195 liters of fuel behind me," he explains. "I don't rely entirely on God, I rely on Prost."

But there was very little for him to gain by doing so, other than his home press criticising his actions of ruining a countryman's title chances. Had Vettel tried a move on him as he was faster, he'd have had him sooner or later and if Schumi blocked, he could have taken out the championship leader.

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"We can not drive slower, just to make the races more exciting." Alain Prost

I'll rephrase - he wouldn't put anyone into the wall when he doesn't think he has a shot at keeping position. Stop ignoring the argument - Vettel was 2 seconds faster per lap, any defense would have been pointless.

Anyone that really thinks this has aided Vettel in any way is pretty far off.

I've no problem with what he did, in fact it was to be expected. But it WAS a present. The boys on the BBC thought so too.

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"I am a believer, but I start each Grand Prix with 195 liters of fuel behind me," he explains. "I don't rely entirely on God, I rely on Prost."

I'm not denying it was a present. I'm just responding to people here saying he "should have been fighting". It would have been pointless. In fact, he would have probably lost time to the people behind him.

There are no issues as far as I am concerned. Torro-Rosso are the sister team to Red Bull, so that's a no brainer. Schumacher let him through...so? 1) he was slower anyway 2) he is friendly with Vettel, so why not when he's got nothing to lose in the race? 3) it's his last race in Formula 1, so he's not exactly being truly competitive.

Has anyone thought about this: Schumacher would have let Alonso pass easily also! I don't think he had any intrest in messing with drivers fighting for the championship today. Or did Schumi fight for positions with Alonso, did I miss it?

At least Alonso doesn't have a team mate like Webber. Vettel got squeezed by Webber in the first corner and he almost lost his race at that point. But he chose to fight back and RACE unlike Alonso who played it safe and waited for Vettel to DNF.

Nah that was just Villenueve, once he knew Schumacher was out he let the McLarens through so that he could nurse his car home to the end of the race and the championship. It made no sense to fight the McLarens when 3rd was good enough for him.

I didn't see RBR at the pit wall asking them to move over for Vettel to pass.

Schumacher's move: He respect Vettel as the next legend. And letting Vettel pass shows that Schumacher honors that young man.

Riccaardo's move: Big fan of Vettel, definitely ones him to win. Let Vettel pass on own accord.

Whilst I don't think it aided Vettel greatly- who knows..

And 2 secs per lap- Schumacher vs Alonso in (Italy was it??) back in (2005 or 2006?)- Schuey was a good 2-3 secs a lap faster and didn't get past (slightly off topic ITV ballsed right up with that one, if anybody else remembers!)

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Should I grow a beard?

All drivers have their teammate who can help them. Vettel though has three.

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Lewis Hamilton #1!

Alonso, Kimi, Grosjean, Massa, Bianchi, Hulkenberg, Button, Perez.

Mercedes AMG Petronas
Ferrari
Lotus F1
Vodafone McLaren Mercedes

Of course, and everyone saw it. This kid isn't a champ, he's just privileged to be Red Bull's No.1 driver when the real champs Alonso and Hamilton are with inferior teams.

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We want heroes, but there are few, mainly it's cars - Pedro De La Rosa

Well, he got that RBR drive on merit. He could have picked Mclaren too, as they wanted him too on the back of his performances with the Toro Rosso. But he went to RBR, where he's performing excellently.

Doesn't change the fact he is very fortunate to be in that car and No.1 driver in that team when there are significantly better drivers on the track.

You have to laugh at Horner saying he beat the best in Alonso. He finished 6th to Alonso's 2nd in the decider and Alonso has been heading the WDC most of the year in a dog of a car. Vettel isn't capable of that, he's just had an armchair ride. It's like Alonso said - he is happy because everyone knows who the best is.

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We want heroes, but there are few, mainly it's cars - Pedro De La Rosa

The latter part is just your opinion. The former part: correct. And they consider themselves lucky to have him. Just like Mclaren wanted to have him. Try to talk yourself out of that.



And still he was way more impressive in the rain than Alonso. Got through a whole field in a few laps, ending up just a few seconds behind Alonso.

You seem very hurt about it.

Maybe Vettel is just more popular with the other drivers, compared to Alonso.



You do realize others are having a good drink over your sweet, sweet tears, doncha?

I strongly doubt Schumacher slowed on purpose to let Vettel past but I wish as strongly that it was true. I'd have a laugh at Ferrari's comments afterwards.

Anyway, this is a non-issue as Schumacher made no difference anyway because Vetttel didn't need the extra position and if that would be the case let's not forget that Webber was ahead of him and could be called for an unscheduled pit stop anytime. I think many people here are just wishing that Schumacher would have taken Vettel out instead.

...and all that with a dirty great hole in the side of the car plus a dented exhaust.

Well he admitted himself that he didn't put up a fight and moved over as Sebastian was so much faster at the time, so you can stop doubting!

"http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20490409"