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Do you consider Alonso a legend of F1?
Yes 48%  48%  [ 86 ]
No 16%  16%  [ 28 ]
Perhaps - He must win more championships first 27%  27%  [ 49 ]
Never - He'll never be an F1 legend 1%  1%  [ 2 ]
I like chocolate 8%  8%  [ 14 ]
Total votes : 179
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:04 pm 
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If a driver will be remembered for their on track prowess for 20/30/40 years etc after their retirement = legend.

Fangio = legend
Brabham = legend
Clark = legend
the list goes on.

Alonso? I voted 'Yes' because I think he will go on to join that club in the future, but as stated already, he hasn't even retired yet so it is too early to tell quite yet.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:05 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
mds wrote:
I have a problem with the term "legend". It's such a hard term to define.

According to the Oxford dictionary, it is an extremely famous or notorious person, especially in a particular field

mds wrote:
I'll say this, and I'm not a fan: Alonso surely will be remembered as one of the great drivers.
For Vettel it's still way early to tell, he still has like 2/3s of a career ahead of him.
I will go along with extremely capable, but not yet a great driver. (He is still some way short of Alain Prost, just to give you an idea of my yardstick.)

So, for now, I'm sticking with the chocolate. Nomnomnom.... :blush:


That is the 'new' definition.
The original definition was more along the lines of something which may or may not be based on fact and has grown with the telling to superhuman proportions.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:05 pm 
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Of course he is. And I don't think he needs to win more titles to prove it.

Stirling Moss & Gilles Villeneuve will always be legends of the sport.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:10 pm 
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He has raced for a decade now and in the last 6 years I dont see what he has done that can even be remotely considered legendary. So the answer is NO.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:42 pm 
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I would say that he is working his way into being one of the greats. I don't even think that he needs to win any more titles to reach that level, just continue to compete and be at the sharp end of the grid for the rest of his career. But I feel that, at this point, saying he will be a legend is a step too far.

Maybe it's semantics, but in my mind in order to be a legend you have to accomplish or be a large part of something that is epic, or larger than life. Lauda returning from a near fatal crash in the same season, or having an archrival that you have multiple memorable on (and off) track battles with like Senna & Prost. It doesn't have to be sucess that makes the legend. Consider someone like Moss who did all he could to win titles, but was always battling another giant of the sport in Fangio.

Whereas being a "great" in the sport can be defined as one who puts in brilliant performances year after year. Again this doesn't require large numbers of championships, but does require that get the most out of the equipment you're given.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:38 pm 
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In 20 years im sure he will be considered as a legend

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:45 pm 
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RickM wrote:
With another title I think he may well be. He's proven he can drive well in more than one team - that IMO says a lot about a driver.

There will however always be some tarnish on his reputation, simply for his involvement in several bits of controversy over the years.



:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

can't skip over the fact that all his teammates are forced to move over for him no matter what race it is of the year. The only one who did not move for him tied him as a rookie.

Crashgate
Spygate
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:59 pm 
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Hakkattack wrote:
RickM wrote:
With another title I think he may well be. He's proven he can drive well in more than one team - that IMO says a lot about a driver.

There will however always be some tarnish on his reputation, simply for his involvement in several bits of controversy over the years.



:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

can't skip over the fact that all his teammates are forced to move over for him no matter what race it is of the year. The only one who did not move for him tied him as a rookie.

Crashgate
Spygate
Gear box seal gate


You don't have to be a saint to be a legend. In fact going a bit rogue sometimes just makes you more of a legend.

See Hunt, Senna, Schumacher

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:01 pm 
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Hakkattack wrote:


can't skip over the fact that all his teammates are forced to move over for him no matter what race it is of the year. The only one who did not move for him tied him as a rookie.

Crashgate
Spygate
Gear box seal gate


Still smarting over Alonso getting Kimi's Ferrari seat, I see, my friend. Ya gotta put it behind or it will drive you to drink!
;)

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:03 pm 
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no doubting the talent (he's a legend), but it's his attitude is something that irks me.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:04 pm 
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In my view a legend is somebody who will be remembered by fans of the sport in 30/40 years time. I believe Alonso will because of the number of wins he has achieved alone. Already 5th in the all time list will become at least 4th soon.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:07 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
In my view a legend is somebody who will be remembered by fans of the sport in 30/40 years time. I believe Alonso will because of the number of wins he has achieved alone. Already 5th in the all time list will become at least 4th soon.


I think so. It's not only about championships but also race wins.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:09 pm 
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Eva09 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
In my view a legend is somebody who will be remembered by fans of the sport in 30/40 years time. I believe Alonso will because of the number of wins he has achieved alone. Already 5th in the all time list will become at least 4th soon.


I think so. It's not only about championships but also race wins.


Its about everything and anything that keeps you in peoples memory's, Its not just about being a great driver James Hunt one of the 10 greatest F1 drivers ever but he is a Legend because he is very memorable.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:57 pm 
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hhmm.. lemme think ... who's got more wins and podiums than he does? Only Schumi, Prost, Senna and Mansell have more wins, and podiums, only Schumi and Prost. Nah, he'll never be a legend. :uhoh:


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:00 pm 
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Eva09 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
In my view a legend is somebody who will be remembered by fans of the sport in 30/40 years time. I believe Alonso will because of the number of wins he has achieved alone. Already 5th in the all time list will become at least 4th soon.


I think so. It's not only about championships but also race wins.

And the type of win.

Conveyor belt wins dont tend to stick in the mind.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:47 pm 
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moby wrote:
Fiki wrote:
mds wrote:
I have a problem with the term "legend". It's such a hard term to define.

According to the Oxford dictionary, it is an extremely famous or notorious person, especially in a particular field

mds wrote:
I'll say this, and I'm not a fan: Alonso surely will be remembered as one of the great drivers.
For Vettel it's still way early to tell, he still has like 2/3s of a career ahead of him.
I will go along with extremely capable, but not yet a great driver. (He is still some way short of Alain Prost, just to give you an idea of my yardstick.)

So, for now, I'm sticking with the chocolate. Nomnomnom.... :blush:


That is the 'new' definition.
The original definition was more along the lines of something which may or may not be based on fact and has grown with the telling to superhuman proportions.

Thanks for that, moby! Does that influence the chocolate factor? :D

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:53 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
moby wrote:
Fiki wrote:
mds wrote:
I have a problem with the term "legend". It's such a hard term to define.

According to the Oxford dictionary, it is an extremely famous or notorious person, especially in a particular field

mds wrote:
I'll say this, and I'm not a fan: Alonso surely will be remembered as one of the great drivers.
For Vettel it's still way early to tell, he still has like 2/3s of a career ahead of him.
I will go along with extremely capable, but not yet a great driver. (He is still some way short of Alain Prost, just to give you an idea of my yardstick.)

So, for now, I'm sticking with the chocolate. Nomnomnom.... :blush:


That is the 'new' definition.
The original definition was more along the lines of something which may or may not be based on fact and has grown with the telling to superhuman proportions.

Thanks for that, moby! Does that influence the chocolate factor? :D


chocolate factor? Sorry? dont understand

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:57 pm 
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Yes. He is on the same level as many of the other legends from F1's history and given his achievements in his career to date I consider him a legend already


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:08 am 
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M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:
Depends on the kind of Chocolate.



How about the Merciless Chocolates of Quetzalacatenango? Chocolates cooked deep in the jungle primeval by the inmates of a Guatemalan insane asylum! :o


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:45 am 
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Prost nearly won lots of titles to only to lose in the last race.

Im sure Alonso will pick up atleast one more before he retires.

Prost could have gotten 6 titles from memory but ended up with 3. Alonso has similar statistics.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:57 am 
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infi24r wrote:
Prost nearly won lots of titles to only to lose in the last race.

Im sure Alonso will pick up atleast one more before he retires.

Prost could have gotten 6 titles from memory but ended up with 3. Alonso has similar statistics.


4


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:22 am 
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Eva09 wrote:
infi24r wrote:
Prost nearly won lots of titles to only to lose in the last race.

Im sure Alonso will pick up atleast one more before he retires.

Prost could have gotten 6 titles from memory but ended up with 3. Alonso has similar statistics.


4


Yes its 4. The thing is if a driver features in a lot of title fights people remember him even if he doesn't win some of them. This is why someone like Button has his WDC credentials questioned so much - he rarely features in title fights even with competitive equipment.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:41 am 
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What a ridiculous idea. Alonso is far from a legend. In fact I would argue that Massa is as good if not better than Alonso. Massa outclassed Alonso towards the end of the season when he got all the updates that Alonso's car had. I have little doubt that Massa would completely own Alonso if given a chance to race but alas tunnel visioned Ferrari and that Santander money is not going to allow that to happen.

imo an F1 legend does not demand his teammate literally throw his points at him, a legend does not demand that a teammate ruin his race to help him, a legend does not veto the hiring of any driver as a teammate that might challenge him, a legend is certainly not so threated by a rookie Hamilton that he takes his ball goes home to Renault. It's a sad world indeed if characters like Alonso are being termed 'legends'.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:17 am 
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iceman_fan90 wrote:
What a ridiculous idea. Alonso is far from a legend. In fact I would argue that Massa is as good if not better than Alonso. Massa outclassed Alonso towards the end of the season when he got all the updates that Alonso's car had. I have little doubt that Massa would completely own Alonso if given a chance to race but alas tunnel visioned Ferrari and that Santander money is not going to allow that to happen.

imo an F1 legend does not demand his teammate literally throw his points at him, a legend does not demand that a teammate ruin his race to help him, a legend does not veto the hiring of any driver as a teammate that might challenge him, a legend is certainly not so threated by a rookie Hamilton that he takes his ball goes home to Renault. It's a sad world indeed if characters like Alonso are being termed 'legends'.


You can argue it all you want, but your assumption that "Massa is as good if not better than Alonso" already destroys your credibility even if we hadn't been reading your anti-Alonso rants for weeks.

Now, about all your claims about Massa not being given the chance, about Santander money, tunnel vision Ferrari not letting it happen... for that you get my usual response... baloney!

and the rest of your "theories"... baloney to them too. You have no proof of Alonso "demanding" all that crap you have listed... nor does anyone else.

Like it or not, and obviously you do not, Alonso is a lot closer to being a "legend" than you like... and those who have claimed that he is one, have made some compelling cases. Twenty years from now it is likely that Alonso will be held in high esteem and recognized as one of F1's better drivers ... just how much better will be determined by how the rest of his career plays out. Your "blights" on his record will be meaningless in the long term...and that has to just bug the hell out of you. I gotta admit, it gives me a good laugh.
:lol:

WOW some of the Kimi fans sure seem to hold a grudge!!!

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:34 am 
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If Alonso doesn't get into any OJ Simpson-level fairy cakes, he'll more likely than not be regarded as a legend by the time he calls it a day.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:36 am 
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iceman_fan90 wrote:
What a ridiculous idea. Alonso is far from a legend. In fact I would argue that Massa is as good if not better than Alonso. Massa outclassed Alonso towards the end of the season when he got all the updates that Alonso's car had. I have little doubt that Massa would completely own Alonso if given a chance to race but alas tunnel visioned Ferrari and that Santander money is not going to allow that to happen.

imo an F1 legend does not demand his teammate literally throw his points at him, a legend does not demand that a teammate ruin his race to help him, a legend does not veto the hiring of any driver as a teammate that might challenge him, a legend is certainly not so threated by a rookie Hamilton that he takes his ball goes home to Renault. It's a sad world indeed if characters like Alonso are being termed 'legends'.

:lol: :lol: :lol: I laughed so hard I had tears rolling down my cheeks :D


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:39 am 
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He'll be a legend in losing WDCs. I don't think any driver have ever lost 3 WDC and in all of them all he needed is to be one place higher in the last race.

I feel for the kid. But I think he'll win it next year.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:56 am 
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When he retires, he will find himself sitting in an elite club where members can be counted with fingers of one hand.
I have no doubt about it.


iceman_fan90 wrote:
What a ridiculous idea. Alonso is far from a legend. In fact I would argue that Massa is as good if not better than Alonso. Massa outclassed Alonso towards the end of the season when he got all the updates that Alonso's car had. I have little doubt that Massa would completely own Alonso if given a chance to race but alas tunnel visioned Ferrari and that Santander money is not going to allow that to happen.

imo an F1 legend does not demand his teammate literally throw his points at him, a legend does not demand that a teammate ruin his race to help him, a legend does not veto the hiring of any driver as a teammate that might challenge him, a legend is certainly not so threated by a rookie Hamilton that he takes his ball goes home to Renault. It's a sad world indeed if characters like Alonso are being termed 'legends'.



I would do this first time on this forums and hopefully for the last time...


BWahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahaha


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:24 am 
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Well for me Alonso is the best over all driver on the grid and has been for many years. Ide say ever since he broke Shumi's wdc winning streak. Having said that I think he is now a more complete, mature driver than he was back then. He has learned from his mistakes on and off the track. Since joining up with Farrari Ive seen a transformed Alonso mentally. Before I used to see him as a gifted racer with much potential but his temperment on and off track would sometimes overshadow his many accomplishments. Now he seems to be able to control the instinctive impulses that his latin blood imposes on him. He has shown himself as a true team leader, never giving up, never bitching his team, always trying to outdo himself and staying positive throughout the season even when Farrari were going nowhere.

He is not yet a legend to me since he is still racing but Im sure he will be eventually.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:23 am 
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No.

I just can't respect a pilot who acts like a child when team refuses to give him #1 status. That throws a shadow over his WDCs, not to mention crashgate.

It's also hard to remember a race where Alonso wouldn't have whined about other pilot's actions.

To me he's a legend of excuses and putting himself on statue. For example he blames Grosjean for losing this year's wdc. How about blaming himself for not being capable of overtaking Kimi in Abu Dhabi. Or Petrov.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:27 am 
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iceman_fan90 wrote:
What a ridiculous idea. Alonso is far from a legend. In fact I would argue that Massa is as good if not better than Alonso. Massa outclassed Alonso towards the end of the season when he got all the updates that Alonso's car had. I have little doubt that Massa would completely own Alonso if given a chance to race but alas tunnel visioned Ferrari and that Santander money is not going to allow that to happen.

imo an F1 legend does not demand his teammate literally throw his points at him, a legend does not demand that a teammate ruin his race to help him, a legend does not veto the hiring of any driver as a teammate that might challenge him, a legend is certainly not so threated by a rookie Hamilton that he takes his ball goes home to Renault. It's a sad world indeed if characters like Alonso are being termed 'legends'.


The bitterness of some Kimi fans is quite hilarious. Keep them coming please!! :D :D

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:44 am 
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iceman_fan90 wrote:
What a ridiculous idea. Alonso is far from a legend. In fact I would argue that Massa is as good if not better than Alonso. Massa outclassed Alonso towards the end of the season when he got all the updates that Alonso's car had. I have little doubt that Massa would completely own Alonso if given a chance to race but alas tunnel visioned Ferrari and that Santander money is not going to allow that to happen.

imo an F1 legend does not demand his teammate literally throw his points at him, a legend does not demand that a teammate ruin his race to help him, a legend does not veto the hiring of any driver as a teammate that might challenge him, a legend is certainly not so threated by a rookie Hamilton that he takes his ball goes home to Renault. It's a sad world indeed if characters like Alonso are being termed 'legends'.


What about Maradona? He even has his own church :-P


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:54 am 
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Fo ... er_records

Judge for yourself. The way I see it, there are four legends in the making currently.
Fernando, Sebastian, Kimi, and Lewis. Regardless of the # titles they've won, they're the four of the current crop that are breaking/equalling records. Not bad going from any of them.

Sad to see Kamui #2 as most points scored with a victory!

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:32 am 
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Here's a question for the OP.

Raikkonen - A Legend of F1?

a) Yes
b) No
c) Perhaps - He must win more championships first
d) Never - He'll never be an F1 legend
e) I like chocolate

Somehow I get the feeling the OP would go for option e) to avoid having to explain their reasoning.

I myself would choose a) Yes. Raikkonen will be remembered for a very long time. His number of wins is well down on the list and he has as many titles as the often forgotten Phil Hill, Denny Hulme, etc. (yes many of us know all about them, but the general public haven't a clue). The stats are not the measure of a great driver.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:39 am 
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mcdo wrote:
Here's a question for the OP.

Raikkonen - A Legend of F1?

a) Yes
b) No
c) Perhaps - He must win more championships first
d) Never - He'll never be an F1 legend
e) I like chocolate

Somehow I get the feeling the OP would go for option e) to avoid having to explain their reasoning.

I myself would choose a) Yes. Raikkonen will be remembered for a very long time. His number of wins is well down on the list and he has as many titles as the often forgotten Phil Hill, Denny Hulme, etc. (yes many of us know all about them, but the general public haven't a clue). The stats are not the measure of a great driver.

Kimi's actually #15 in most wins, two behind Hamilton. Not bad going really. And Kimi is near the top of the charts for many records/stats, I think he'll be remembered for a long time, hence I think he's one of the 4 legends we see on the grid.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:52 am 
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jammin78 wrote:
Kimi's actually #15 in most wins, two behind Hamilton. Not bad going really. And Kimi is near the top of the charts for many records/stats, I think he'll be remembered for a long time, hence I think he's one of the 4 legends we see on the grid.

4 on the grid in 2012 or 4 on the grid in 2013?

If 2012 then I'm interested to know who your 4 are.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:06 pm 
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This number of wins stat is very slued towards current drivers. Some of the early drives had less than 10 GP a year while modern drivers have twice the number.
It also seems to be the way now that the same 3 or 4 drivers win every race (early this year was an exception due to tyres) while previously 5 wins a year was doing well.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:18 pm 
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moby wrote:
This number of wins stat is very slued towards current drivers. Some of the early drives had less than 10 GP a year while modern drivers have twice the number.
It also seems to be the way now that the same 3 or 4 drivers win every race (early this year was an exception due to tyres) while previously 5 wins a year was doing well.


Hence the reasoning of win %.

I think it was 1974 where they had 16 races for the first time. 1977 (17) even had more races than 2003 (16) and the same as 2009 (17). I think you also have to take into account the chance of driving as many races as Schumacher, Barrichello, Coulthard have, and not being killed is very low back then.

Only now is it possible having all the safety advancements.

I think 19 is the limit. 20 is definitely too much. The teams need to do something about that.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:19 pm 
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moby wrote:
This number of wins stat is very slued towards current drivers. Some of the early drives had less than 10 GP a year while modern drivers have twice the number.
It also seems to be the way now that the same 3 or 4 drivers win every race (early this year was an exception due to tyres) while previously 5 wins a year was doing well.


It seems to vary doesn't it. Last year, Vettel domination, 2010 and 2012, many drivers sharing. Ominous for 2013 8O .


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:19 pm 
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Eva09 wrote:
moby wrote:
This number of wins stat is very slued towards current drivers. Some of the early drives had less than 10 GP a year while modern drivers have twice the number.
It also seems to be the way now that the same 3 or 4 drivers win every race (early this year was an exception due to tyres) while previously 5 wins a year was doing well.


Hence the reasoning of win %.

I think it was 1974 where they had 16 races for the first time. 1977 (17) even had more races than 2003 (16) and the same as 2009 (17). I think you also have to take into account the chance of driving as many races as Schumacher, Barrichello, Coulthard have, and not being killed is very low back then.

Only now is it possible having all the safety advancements.

I think 19 is the limit. 20 is definitely too much. The teams need to do something about that.


Good point too

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