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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:12 am 
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Both racing incidents in my opinion, Bruno was not offline, he was turning but Vettel closed the door.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swCEGQ8t ... ure=relmfu

And the Hulk lost the car under braking, unfortunately Lewis was there.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:15 am 
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I'd like to remark just one more thing: how can Vettel receive blame for both Brazil and Abu Dhabi's coming-together with Senna?
I mean, if the argument is "Senna was past the rear of Vettels car" yesterday, surely Vettel was past the rear of Senna's car in Abu Dhabi yet there he was also regarded to be at fault?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 7:04 pm 
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As for Brazil, I think it's obvious Vettel should have kept his line or at least, not just have turned in to the inside of the corner like that. So it was perhaps a bit "foolish".

Image

As for the Abu Dhabi incident, if you see it from this view :

Image

you would believe Vettel was trying to be a bit too optimistic, but if you see it from the onboard it does look there is a bit more space.. So I can't really judge it. I think they are both racing incidents, things that sometimes happen in the heat of the moment.

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Last edited by XploZiV on Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:45 pm 
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XploZiV wrote:
I think they are both racing incidents, things that sometimes happen in the head of the moment.


I agree wholeheartedly.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:54 pm 
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mds wrote:
I'd like to remark just one more thing: how can Vettel receive blame for both Brazil and Abu Dhabi's coming-together with Senna?
I mean, if the argument is "Senna was past the rear of Vettels car" yesterday, surely Vettel was past the rear of Senna's car in Abu Dhabi yet there he was also regarded to be at fault?


simple, on both ocassions Senna was turning in normaly, while in Abu Vettel outbraked/was very optimistic and in Brazil he turned into Senna.

At the end of the day, he wrecked the race of 2 other drivers.

It is just a bit too much that others crash into Grosjean and Vettel crashes into others, and still it is only Grosjean at fault. In the last races, Vettel was demolition derby or destruction derby or how ever you want to call it.

At least Grosjean can take it like a man and say it's his fault. While cry baby Vettel, goes to the cemetery to bich about Bruno. What an absolute idiot. And he's world champion. Unbelievable......


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:03 pm 
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shift wrote:
Both racing incidents in my opinion, Bruno was not offline, he was turning but Vettel closed the door.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swCEGQ8t ... ure=relmfu

And the Hulk lost the car under braking, unfortunately Lewis was there.


I agree it was a racing incident. After all, how is Vettel supposed to see Bruno when a Force India is filling his left side mirror? Very easy to see that Senna "snuck up" on Vettel and there was no chance to see him. People forget that drivers do not stare at their mirrors when they drive, especially in the wet, and especially when braking and approaching a corner.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:09 pm 
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paul_gmb wrote:
In the last races, Vettel was demolition derby or destruction derby or how ever you want to call it.


That's far too exaggerated. He was involved in two racing incidents. Not that much to it.

Quote:
cry baby Vettel


Thank you, we needed more maturity in here, this obviously does it.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:13 pm 
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SnakeSVT2003 wrote:
shift wrote:
Both racing incidents in my opinion, Bruno was not offline, he was turning but Vettel closed the door.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swCEGQ8t ... ure=relmfu

And the Hulk lost the car under braking, unfortunately Lewis was there.


I agree it was a racing incident. After all, how is Vettel supposed to see Bruno when a Force India is filling his left side mirror? Very easy to see that Senna "snuck up" on Vettel and there was no chance to see him. People forget that drivers do not stare at their mirrors when they drive, especially in the wet, and especially when braking and approaching a corner.


Rewatching that YT vid, it seems to me that Bruno actually carried too much speed into the corner and was going into a wider arc. Compare with Hulkenberg in front, who had the actual racing line.

Racing incident.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:12 pm 
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mds wrote:
SnakeSVT2003 wrote:
shift wrote:
Both racing incidents in my opinion, Bruno was not offline, he was turning but Vettel closed the door.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swCEGQ8t ... ure=relmfu

And the Hulk lost the car under braking, unfortunately Lewis was there.


I agree it was a racing incident. After all, how is Vettel supposed to see Bruno when a Force India is filling his left side mirror? Very easy to see that Senna "snuck up" on Vettel and there was no chance to see him. People forget that drivers do not stare at their mirrors when they drive, especially in the wet, and especially when braking and approaching a corner.


Rewatching that YT vid, it seems to me that Bruno actually carried too much speed into the corner and was going into a wider arc. Compare with Hulkenberg in front, who had the actual racing line.

Racing incident.


See, to me, you can judge how Senna was taking the corner by looking at the curb. He took it smooth and the car didnt wash out on him or anything.

On the other hand, look between the air intake and his helmet. You will see the FI car streak back and then a RBR vehicle come slashing into the picture. If the FI car hadnt backed off going into the corner there would of been an even bigger wreck as it looks like the RBR car cuts down in front of him.

To me, Vettel took a race pace line into the corner while it was way too crowded.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHWo4OVd ... ure=relmfu

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 1:50 am 
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bballr4567 wrote:
mds wrote:
SnakeSVT2003 wrote:
shift wrote:
Both racing incidents in my opinion, Bruno was not offline, he was turning but Vettel closed the door.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swCEGQ8t ... ure=relmfu

And the Hulk lost the car under braking, unfortunately Lewis was there.


I agree it was a racing incident. After all, how is Vettel supposed to see Bruno when a Force India is filling his left side mirror? Very easy to see that Senna "snuck up" on Vettel and there was no chance to see him. People forget that drivers do not stare at their mirrors when they drive, especially in the wet, and especially when braking and approaching a corner.


Rewatching that YT vid, it seems to me that Bruno actually carried too much speed into the corner and was going into a wider arc. Compare with Hulkenberg in front, who had the actual racing line.

Racing incident.


See, to me, you can judge how Senna was taking the corner by looking at the curb. He took it smooth and the car didnt wash out on him or anything.

On the other hand, look between the air intake and his helmet. You will see the FI car streak back and then a RBR vehicle come slashing into the picture. If the FI car hadnt backed off going into the corner there would of been an even bigger wreck as it looks like the RBR car cuts down in front of him.

To me, Vettel took a race pace line into the corner while it was way too crowded.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHWo4OVd ... ure=relmfu


The only reason why Senna was able to make the corner so smoothly was because no one in front of him was taking it at full speed, he was just being more aggressive out of the bunch of cars going into that corner. No one really out of the first 7 cars (including Vettel) were overtaking or defending for turn 4. Senna was racing against the Force India for turn 4 like they were the only ones there, and THAT was the problem. There was no consideration that there could have been someone ahead, unable to see him and that's probably because his focus was trying to overtake the Force India. From Vettel's perspective, the only car he could probably see in his left mirror was di Resta and saw that he was behind not putting up a fight so proceeded into the corner. I would put more blame on Vettel if him and Senna were wheel to wheel with each other, BUT they were never near each other until the apex. Purely a racing incident.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:06 am 
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paul_gmb wrote:
mds wrote:
I'd like to remark just one more thing: how can Vettel receive blame for both Brazil and Abu Dhabi's coming-together with Senna?
I mean, if the argument is "Senna was past the rear of Vettels car" yesterday, surely Vettel was past the rear of Senna's car in Abu Dhabi yet there he was also regarded to be at fault?


simple, on both ocassions Senna was turning in normaly, while in Abu Vettel outbraked/was very optimistic and in Brazil he turned into Senna.

At the end of the day, he wrecked the race of 2 other drivers.

It is just a bit too much that others crash into Grosjean and Vettel crashes into others, and still it is only Grosjean at fault. In the last races, Vettel was demolition derby or destruction derby or how ever you want to call it.

At least Grosjean can take it like a man and say it's his fault. While cry baby Vettel, goes to the cemetery to bich about Bruno. What an absolute idiot. And he's world champion. Unbelievable......


For all we know, Ayrton probably agrees with Vettel about Bruno.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:58 am 
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I'm sorry, but there's absolutely no way Vettel was at fault for Sunday. I agree that it's not fair for a driver to cut into the apex the way Vettel did, but when you get bulldozed by somebody who is three cars back then what are you supposed to do?

Might as well ban defending drivers from even attempting to make a corner. I suspect some people arguing this really are bitter.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:08 am 
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XploZiV wrote:
theman28 wrote:
Vettel and Senna was 50-50. I dont think Senna had enough part of his car on the side for Vettel to see that he was being overtaked, and as someone else mention Raikkonen went off which only served as a distraction. Also on the onboard view of Vettel Senna was nowhere to be seen which suggests Vettel did not see him at all. Senna shouldnt have tried to overtake so far back with the gap closing as Vettel was already committed to the corner, of course Vettel shouldn't have turned into the unknown therefore I call this incident 50-50. Hulkenberg didnt deserve his penalty either so the stewards dropped the ball on that one.


Apparently Vettel said on RTL TV right after the race "Maybe I should go to the cemetery and tell Ayrton what his little nephew did today"

If that's true, and by no means I'm sure he did, but if he said that, then I find that very sad he said that...


There's no way he said that? Surely?? 8O


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:48 am 
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RaisinChips wrote:
XploZiV wrote:

Apparently Vettel said on RTL TV right after the race "Maybe I should go to the cemetary and tell Ayrton what his little nephew did today"

If that's true, and by no means I'm sure he did, but if he said that, then I find that very sad he said that...


Quite classless from Vettel if true.


I agree. I have a dark sense of humour sometimes and being charitable to Vettel, at a stretch can see how someone with a dark sense of humour could think "oh, this could be funny," but I think 99 times out of 100 that joke is going to cause a lot of offense. Then to say it on TV! 8O

Having watched the clip, it's ambiguous to me from his body language if he is serious or not when he talks about going to Ayrton's grave and telling him about Bruno, but not the most intelligent thing anybody has said, that's for sure.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:19 am 
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He didn't seem to say it with bad intentions - but it was stupid nonetheless.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:30 am 
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Meh, for all we know, the actual people who work and compete in F1 crack jokes about dead drivers all the time.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:31 am 
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benmc wrote:
I'm sorry, but there's absolutely no way Vettel was at fault for Sunday. I agree that it's not fair for a driver to cut into the apex the way Vettel did, but when you get bulldozed by somebody who is three cars back then what are you supposed to do?

Might as well ban defending drivers from even attempting to make a corner. I suspect some people arguing this really are bitter.

have to disagree with you there, I'm afraid. You said it yourself - he should not have cut the apex. Vettel left Senna with nowhere to go and IMO he could/should have left him some room. Even in the chaos of the first corner drivers should be checking both their mirrors and he should have been more aware. Imagine if the cars had been reversed and it was Senna on the outside; do you think he would have gone unpunished?

Nevertheless, I'd be more inclined to forgive the incident if the stewards had shown the same generosity with Hulk's move. The only difference seems to be that a midfielder made the move on a front runner, rather than the reverse, which seems a pretty poor basis on which to pass sentence. Particularly the speed of the judgement in Hulk's case suggests that there may have been one or two Lewis supporters on the panel!


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:18 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Even in the chaos of the first corner drivers should be checking both their mirrors and he should have been more aware.


Checking "both" mirrors wouldn't have done anything, that's just the point: they were both (Di Resta and Senna) to his left and Di Resta was probably the only one Vettel COULD see in his mirror.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:20 am 
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How can people put the blame on senna he arrived fast yes but on the racing line he didn't leave it once he wasn't overshooting the corner or out of shape and gets steered into,vettel cut right across. I do agree it should be a racing incident under the circumstances, but it was vettels fault not senna. If you watch footage of Alonso on lap 1 of races when he takes the outside line you see how its meant to be done he is fully aware of everyone around him and never cuts across an apex like vettel did.... Just saying


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:31 am 
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Turtle_ wrote:
XploZiV wrote:
theman28 wrote:
Vettel and Senna was 50-50. I dont think Senna had enough part of his car on the side for Vettel to see that he was being overtaked, and as someone else mention Raikkonen went off which only served as a distraction. Also on the onboard view of Vettel Senna was nowhere to be seen which suggests Vettel did not see him at all. Senna shouldnt have tried to overtake so far back with the gap closing as Vettel was already committed to the corner, of course Vettel shouldn't have turned into the unknown therefore I call this incident 50-50. Hulkenberg didnt deserve his penalty either so the stewards dropped the ball on that one.


Apparently Vettel said on RTL TV right after the race "Maybe I should go to the cemetery and tell Ayrton what his little nephew did today"

If that's true, and by no means I'm sure he did, but if he said that, then I find that very sad he said that...


There's no way he said that? Surely?? 8O


Well as said, he did. I don't think he was serious about it, and it was right after the race so the adrenaline still pumping. But still not the most clever thing to do.

You should have seen Bruno's Facebook fanpage right after the incident happened. It became flooded with angry Vettel fans (most of them germans), saying the most ugliest things I have ever read. Some even threatened to kill him.

Now that's what I call a very sad moment.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 10:54 am 
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XploZiV wrote:
Turtle_ wrote:
XploZiV wrote:
theman28 wrote:
Vettel and Senna was 50-50. I dont think Senna had enough part of his car on the side for Vettel to see that he was being overtaked, and as someone else mention Raikkonen went off which only served as a distraction. Also on the onboard view of Vettel Senna was nowhere to be seen which suggests Vettel did not see him at all. Senna shouldnt have tried to overtake so far back with the gap closing as Vettel was already committed to the corner, of course Vettel shouldn't have turned into the unknown therefore I call this incident 50-50. Hulkenberg didnt deserve his penalty either so the stewards dropped the ball on that one.


Apparently Vettel said on RTL TV right after the race "Maybe I should go to the cemetery and tell Ayrton what his little nephew did today"

If that's true, and by no means I'm sure he did, but if he said that, then I find that very sad he said that...


There's no way he said that? Surely?? 8O


Well as said, he did. I don't think he was serious about it, and it was right after the race so the adrenaline still pumping. But still not the most clever thing to do.

You should have seen Bruno's Facebook fanpage right after the incident happened. It became flooded with angry Vettel fans (most of them germans), saying the most ugliest things I have ever read. Some even threatened to kill him.

Now that's what I call a very sad moment.


It is very sad, but I think that's more a reflection of what the internet makes possible than anything about Vettel's fans or German people. I would have expected the same if Senna had run into Alonso, or if it had happened when Hamilton was fighting for a championship at the last race.

Before fast internet access and social media, the angry ones have to stew by themselves or kick over a few things at home or in the local pub, the internet means you can go directly to the source of the hatred. Even a minority of fans, a few hundred out of millions that support Vettel, can flood a single web page in minutes now.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:15 pm 
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Is this what Vettel really said???

Image


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... AezVM-zzdQ


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:43 pm 
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mds wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Even in the chaos of the first corner drivers should be checking both their mirrors and he should have been more aware.


Checking "both" mirrors wouldn't have done anything, that's just the point: they were both (Di Resta and Senna) to his left and Di Resta was probably the only one Vettel COULD see in his mirror.


Exactly.
There's no way Vettel would've been able to see Senna coming until it was too late. Senna didn't come out from behind di Resta until very late. And it's arguable that if Raikkonen hadn't gone off to avoid Vettel, Senna's move may have forced him off anyway.

I will say again: It's not OK to take the apex away from a driver, but if the attacking driver (who the defending driver probably cannot see) makes a bold move from three cars back, on the first lap, what else can a defending driver do? You can just as easily argue that Senna left nowhere for Vettel to go. Senna's tone in his BBC post-race interview said it all. I think even he thought he was the guilty party.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 1:22 pm 
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SnakeSVT2003 wrote:
shift wrote:
Both racing incidents in my opinion, Bruno was not offline, he was turning but Vettel closed the door.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swCEGQ8t ... ure=relmfu

And the Hulk lost the car under braking, unfortunately Lewis was there.


I agree it was a racing incident. After all, how is Vettel supposed to see Bruno when a Force India is filling his left side mirror? Very easy to see that Senna "snuck up" on Vettel and there was no chance to see him. People forget that drivers do not stare at their mirrors when they drive, especially in the wet, and especially when braking and approaching a corner.

People here also forget that crashing into another because you could not see it in your mirrors is not a valid excuse.

Drivers should have have situational awareness and know where other cars are. Not seeing them and cutting them up is just bad driving however you cut it.


Last edited by AngreetRoll on Tue Nov 27, 2012 1:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 1:25 pm 
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benmc wrote:
mds wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Even in the chaos of the first corner drivers should be checking both their mirrors and he should have been more aware.


Checking "both" mirrors wouldn't have done anything, that's just the point: they were both (Di Resta and Senna) to his left and Di Resta was probably the only one Vettel COULD see in his mirror.


Exactly.
There's no way Vettel would've been able to see Senna coming until it was too late. Senna didn't come out from behind di Resta until very late. And it's arguable that if Raikkonen hadn't gone off to avoid Vettel, Senna's move may have forced him off anyway.

I will say again: It's not OK to take the apex away from a driver, but if the attacking driver (who the defending driver probably cannot see) makes a bold move from three cars back, on the first lap, what else can a defending driver do? You can just as easily argue that Senna left nowhere for Vettel to go. Senna's tone in his BBC post-race interview said it all. I think even he thought he was the guilty party.

Of course he thinks he's the guilty party. He's been bullied and brainwashed by the media and the big teams into thinking that if you even touch Vettel/Alonso/Hamilton it will always be your fault. He went for an opening like they've been trained to do in GP2. It's just that in GP2 you don't have the God complex that a lot of the big name drivers in F1 have where they feel entitled to whatever line they choose and people don't deliberately try to cut you up because you tried to overtake them.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:24 pm 
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benmc wrote:
mds wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Even in the chaos of the first corner drivers should be checking both their mirrors and he should have been more aware.


Checking "both" mirrors wouldn't have done anything, that's just the point: they were both (Di Resta and Senna) to his left and Di Resta was probably the only one Vettel COULD see in his mirror.


Exactly.
There's no way Vettel would've been able to see Senna coming until it was too late. Senna didn't come out from behind di Resta until very late. And it's arguable that if Raikkonen hadn't gone off to avoid Vettel, Senna's move may have forced him off anyway.

I will say again: It's not OK to take the apex away from a driver, but if the attacking driver (who the defending driver probably cannot see) makes a bold move from three cars back, on the first lap, what else can a defending driver do? You can just as easily argue that Senna left nowhere for Vettel to go. Senna's tone in his BBC post-race interview said it all. I think even he thought he was the guilty party.

Look at the still shot posted by XploSIV above. Senna was already far enough in front that Vettel should have known he was there, and Vettel had ample room to go around the outside and avoid Senna. By cutting the apex he left Senna with nowhere to go, whereas the same could not be said in reverse. Therefore, as the driver who could have taken avoiding action, Vettel was at fault. Bear in mind he didn't lose control of his car but simply cut across another's bows. I wonder if e.g. Grosjean had made the same move what people would be saying now. It was an avoidable accident


Last edited by Zoue on Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:26 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
benmc wrote:
mds wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Even in the chaos of the first corner drivers should be checking both their mirrors and he should have been more aware.


Checking "both" mirrors wouldn't have done anything, that's just the point: they were both (Di Resta and Senna) to his left and Di Resta was probably the only one Vettel COULD see in his mirror.


Exactly.
There's no way Vettel would've been able to see Senna coming until it was too late. Senna didn't come out from behind di Resta until very late. And it's arguable that if Raikkonen hadn't gone off to avoid Vettel, Senna's move may have forced him off anyway.

I will say again: It's not OK to take the apex away from a driver, but if the attacking driver (who the defending driver probably cannot see) makes a bold move from three cars back, on the first lap, what else can a defending driver do? You can just as easily argue that Senna left nowhere for Vettel to go. Senna's tone in his BBC post-race interview said it all. I think even he thought he was the guilty party.

Look at the still shot posted by XploSIV above. Senna was already far enough in front that Vettel should have known he was there, and Vettel had ample room to go around the outside and avoid Senna. By cutting the apex he left Senna with nowhere to go, whereas the same could not be said in reverse. Therefore, as the driver who could have taken avoiding action, Vettel was at fault. Bear in mind he didn't lose control of his car but simply cut across another's bows. I wonder if e.g. Grosjean had made the same move what people would be saying now. It was an avoidable accident.

Now contrast with

:thumbup:


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:36 pm 
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Why was Vettel's maneuver different from Alonso's in Suzuka? Didn't they both cut in front of another driver who proceeded to return the favor by hitting them?


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:41 pm 
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Greg92 wrote:
Why was Vettel's maneuver different from Alonso's in Suzuka? Didn't they both cut in front of another driver who proceeded to return the favor by hitting them?

Don't follow, sorry. The two incidents are completely different


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:00 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Greg92 wrote:
Why was Vettel's maneuver different from Alonso's in Suzuka? Didn't they both cut in front of another driver who proceeded to return the favor by hitting them?

Don't follow, sorry. The two incidents are completely different


How are they completely different? Vettel closed on Senna, Alonso closed on Kimi.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:02 pm 
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Greg92 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Greg92 wrote:
Why was Vettel's maneuver different from Alonso's in Suzuka? Didn't they both cut in front of another driver who proceeded to return the favor by hitting them?

Don't follow, sorry. The two incidents are completely different


How are they completely different? Vettel closed on Senna, Alonso closed on Kimi.

One of them was German. The other's Spanish. That's how they are different.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:04 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
benmc wrote:
mds wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Even in the chaos of the first corner drivers should be checking both their mirrors and he should have been more aware.


Checking "both" mirrors wouldn't have done anything, that's just the point: they were both (Di Resta and Senna) to his left and Di Resta was probably the only one Vettel COULD see in his mirror.


Exactly.
There's no way Vettel would've been able to see Senna coming until it was too late. Senna didn't come out from behind di Resta until very late. And it's arguable that if Raikkonen hadn't gone off to avoid Vettel, Senna's move may have forced him off anyway.

I will say again: It's not OK to take the apex away from a driver, but if the attacking driver (who the defending driver probably cannot see) makes a bold move from three cars back, on the first lap, what else can a defending driver do? You can just as easily argue that Senna left nowhere for Vettel to go. Senna's tone in his BBC post-race interview said it all. I think even he thought he was the guilty party.

Look at the still shot posted by XploSIV above. Senna was already far enough in front that Vettel should have known he was there, and Vettel had ample room to go around the outside and avoid Senna. By cutting the apex he left Senna with nowhere to go, whereas the same could not be said in reverse. Therefore, as the driver who could have taken avoiding action, Vettel was at fault. Bear in mind he didn't lose control of his car but simply cut across another's bows. I wonder if e.g. Grosjean had made the same move what people would be saying now. It was an avoidable accident


You can't just look at a still shot and use that as evidence to put the blame on Vettel alone. In that situation, Senna had 9 cars ahead of him prior entering turn 4. With those group of cars following each other into that corner, they are going to be cornering it at a much slower rate than normal. If you watch the video footage you can see that both Kimi and Senna were approaching turn 4 at a more aggressive rate than the others. However, Kimi was on the outside with Vettel in front, realized he was going into hot and JUST avoided smashing into Vettel's rear by driving off the track. Senna, on the otherhand was on the inside taking that corner like it was just di Resta and him going into that corner alone. He was going for a gap as a racing driver and he sure would have taken that corner just fine, but that gap was surely always going to close because of another car ahead. It could have been avoided both ways, but I don't think you can put more weight on Vettel.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:06 pm 
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Greg92 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Greg92 wrote:
Why was Vettel's maneuver different from Alonso's in Suzuka? Didn't they both cut in front of another driver who proceeded to return the favor by hitting them?

Don't follow, sorry. The two incidents are completely different


How are they completely different? Vettel closed on Senna, Alonso closed on Kimi.

well, for starters they hadn't even reached the corner yet. That's how it's different :?

Not even sure why you're bringing up Suzuka anyway. The thread is about Vettel's accident vs Hulkenburgs


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:13 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Greg92 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Greg92 wrote:
Why was Vettel's maneuver different from Alonso's in Suzuka? Didn't they both cut in front of another driver who proceeded to return the favor by hitting them?

Don't follow, sorry. The two incidents are completely different


How are they completely different? Vettel closed on Senna, Alonso closed on Kimi.

well, for starters they hadn't even reached the corner yet. That's how it's different :?

Not even sure why you're bringing up Suzuka anyway. The thread is about Vettel's accident vs Hulkenburgs


I see, Vettel's accident and Hulkenberg's are identical then by your logic.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:13 pm 
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Jazzmaster0887 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
benmc wrote:
mds wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Even in the chaos of the first corner drivers should be checking both their mirrors and he should have been more aware.


Checking "both" mirrors wouldn't have done anything, that's just the point: they were both (Di Resta and Senna) to his left and Di Resta was probably the only one Vettel COULD see in his mirror.


Exactly.
There's no way Vettel would've been able to see Senna coming until it was too late. Senna didn't come out from behind di Resta until very late. And it's arguable that if Raikkonen hadn't gone off to avoid Vettel, Senna's move may have forced him off anyway.

I will say again: It's not OK to take the apex away from a driver, but if the attacking driver (who the defending driver probably cannot see) makes a bold move from three cars back, on the first lap, what else can a defending driver do? You can just as easily argue that Senna left nowhere for Vettel to go. Senna's tone in his BBC post-race interview said it all. I think even he thought he was the guilty party.

Look at the still shot posted by XploSIV above. Senna was already far enough in front that Vettel should have known he was there, and Vettel had ample room to go around the outside and avoid Senna. By cutting the apex he left Senna with nowhere to go, whereas the same could not be said in reverse. Therefore, as the driver who could have taken avoiding action, Vettel was at fault. Bear in mind he didn't lose control of his car but simply cut across another's bows. I wonder if e.g. Grosjean had made the same move what people would be saying now. It was an avoidable accident


You can't just look at a still shot and use that as evidence to put the blame on Vettel alone. In that situation, Senna had 9 cars ahead of him prior entering turn 4. With those group of cars following each other into that corner, they are going to be cornering it at a much slower rate than normal. If you watch the video footage you can see that both Kimi and Senna were approaching turn 4 at a more aggressive rate than the others. However, Kimi was on the outside with Vettel in front, realized he was going into hot and JUST avoided smashing into Vettel's rear by driving off the track. Senna, on the otherhand was on the inside taking that corner like it was just di Resta and him going into that corner alone. He was going for a gap as a racing driver and he sure would have taken that corner just fine, but that gap was surely always going to close because of another car ahead. It could have been avoided both ways, but I don't think you can put more weight on Vettel.

I'm not just using it; I'm offering it as supporting evidence. Feel free to find more

Look, I'm not sure what people are getting so upset about. A first corner accident doesn't diminish Vettel's achievements over the year. But even if Senna was being ambitious (and I'm not saying he was), it's still down to Vettel to leave a car's width and he didn't. He chopped the apex as though there were no other cars there. It was a mistake which IMO caused an accident. And to keep on topic at the very least it merited an investigation, especially given the speed of Hulk's punishment. Again, to put it into perspective, if it had been Grosjean in place of Vettel what do you think would have been the reaction, both from the stewards and forum members? I can't shake the feeling that double standards are being applied


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:21 pm 
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brido5 wrote:
As others have previously said, stewards were inconsistent.



i believe the "celebrity" former driver steward is a good idea. but f1 is asking for inconsistent judgements when they have a different one each race. everyone has an opinion and that doesn't mean one former driver thinks the same as another former driver.
f1 should hire one former driver to assist in these decisions for the entire season. not a different one each race.

but as many have said, they were inconsistent in the vettel, hulk calls. overall i am for much less penalties being called. it is clear "top" drivers are penalized less then "bottom" drivers


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:26 pm 
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Zoue wrote:

Look, I'm not sure what people are getting so upset about. A first corner accident doesn't diminish Vettel's achievements over the year. But even if Senna was being ambitious (and I'm not saying he was), it's still down to Vettel to leave a car's width and he didn't. He chopped the apex as though there were no other cars there. It was a mistake which IMO caused an accident. And to keep on topic at the very least it merited an investigation, especially given the speed of Hulk's punishment. Again, to put it into perspective, if it had been Grosjean in place of Vettel what do you think would have been the reaction, both from the stewards and forum members? I can't shake the feeling that double standards are being applied


Senna should have been smarter than just dive bombing into a corner with all that traffic ahead of him, I don't know where else you expect Vettel to go, especially if he can't see Senna coming in the mirrors. It's pretty easy to say he should have left Senna more room, but that corner doesn't have a lot of room to give in the first place and Senna was just going into a closing gap.

Racing incident though.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:35 pm 
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MikeV1987 wrote:
Zoue wrote:

Look, I'm not sure what people are getting so upset about. A first corner accident doesn't diminish Vettel's achievements over the year. But even if Senna was being ambitious (and I'm not saying he was), it's still down to Vettel to leave a car's width and he didn't. He chopped the apex as though there were no other cars there. It was a mistake which IMO caused an accident. And to keep on topic at the very least it merited an investigation, especially given the speed of Hulk's punishment. Again, to put it into perspective, if it had been Grosjean in place of Vettel what do you think would have been the reaction, both from the stewards and forum members? I can't shake the feeling that double standards are being applied


Senna should have been smarter than just dive bombing into a corner with all that traffic ahead of him, I don't know where else you expect Vettel to go, especially if he can't see Senna coming in the mirrors. It's pretty easy to say he should have left Senna more room, but that corner doesn't have a lot of room to give in the first place and Senna was just going into a closing gap.

Racing incident though.
Except there were cars going three wide behind Senna and Vettel. There is plenty of room in that corner for two cars.

If you watch Senna's onboard you see he wasnt even close to being out of control. He held his line and was chopped in front of by Vettel. Sure, you could say he shouldnt of been there but he was. If Vettel had kept his line (like so many drivers do in first lap conditions until the field spreads out) there wouldnt of been a wreck there.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:42 pm 
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When I watch Senna's onboard it looks like he brakes way too late and barely stops the car from locking up before hitting the side of the bull. He went into that corner fast compared to all the other drivers and it looked nothing more than a desperate attempt to make up a few places.

Regardless, it's the still the car behind's responsibility not to hit the car ahead, they weren't side by side, Vettel was already committed and Senna came in too hot given Vettel's position on the track. this is about as far as I'm going to go on this debate, it's pretty tiring.


Last edited by MikeV1987 on Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:47 pm 
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MikeV1987 wrote:
When I watch Senna's onboard it looks like he brakes way too late and barely stops the car from locking up before hitting the side of the bull. He went into that corner fast compared to all the other drivers and it looked nothing more than a desperate attempt to make up a few places.

Watch his hands. They dont move fast, he never has to make a correction or anything. He has the inside line and doesnt even come off the curb. He is expecting Vettel to stay on the outside.

Even IF he braked late, he was still there. Vettel compounded the situation by taking a lap 30 racing line into the corner. He expected no one to be there but it was lap 1 and there was.

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