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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:10 pm 
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Alonso is the number 1 driver and Ferrari will make sure he is satisfied; if it means sacrificing Massa's races then so be it.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:23 pm 
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ferrar1sta wrote:
3rd place in his last race- before Massa moved over for him- and he under-performed? That's where he needed to be, there was no way he was ever going to catch the McLarens, so a pretty impressive finish indeed. He didn't make a mistake all season, whereas the WDC made numerous...

What did Fernando do in the last couple of races, without Felipe, that helped his cause? Not much. We're talking about the performance of teammates, not relative to everyone else - so given that he's been out qualified and out paced, yes I say he has under performed compared to Felipe lately.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:52 pm 
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Incredible... If one took your posts at face value, you'd think Alonso had waited behind Massa all race, waited for him to shunt people aside, and then scooted by. Webber has helped Vettel out this season a lot more than Massa helped Alonso by simply being up among the front-runners. There have been long periods where Webber has been out-driving Vettel; why, then, do we have quotes like the infamous, "yeah, but I'm in front?"

Alonso is number one, and again will be next season, because he's been consistently (much) better. He lost the championship by three points (one before Schumi decided to do Vettel a favour), if my team/driver had just won the title, that would be enough for me, without having to try and belittle the closest competitor's outstanding season.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:57 pm 
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ferrar1sta wrote:
Incredible... If one took your posts at face value, you'd think Alonso had waited behind Massa all race, waited for him to shunt people aside, and then scooted by. Webber has helped Vettel out this season a lot more than Massa helped Alonso by simply being up among the front-runners. There have been long periods where Webber has been out-driving Vettel; why, then, do we have quotes like the infamous, "yeah, but I'm in front?"
Alonso is number one, and again will be next season, because he's been consistently (much) better. He lost the championship by three points (one before Schumi decided to do Vettel a favour), if my team/driver had just won the title, that would be enough for me, without having to try and belittle the closest competitor's outstanding season.


Yeah, Webber can drive well all season and Massa has driven well for the last 3 races or so. That's entirely down to the team to notice and sort. They should have done it in May then they would have been in a better position come November :lol: :D :]
Massa could be a No1 at HRT, Marussia or Caterham though! :D


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:29 pm 
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ferrar1sta wrote:
Incredible... If one took your posts at face value, you'd think Alonso had waited behind Massa all race, waited for him to shunt people aside, and then scooted by. Webber has helped Vettel out this season a lot more than Massa helped Alonso by simply being up among the front-runners. There have been long periods where Webber has been out-driving Vettel; why, then, do we have quotes like the infamous, "yeah, but I'm in front?"

Alonso is number one, and again will be next season, because he's been consistently (much) better. He lost the championship by three points (one before Schumi decided to do Vettel a favour), if my team/driver had just won the title, that would be enough for me, without having to try and belittle the closest competitor's outstanding season.

Well...he did kind of wait for Felipe to hold others up so that he could pass them both. It was pretty obvious. We aren't talking about Vettel or Webber or anybody else. We are talking Fernando vs. Felipe, which one has gotten more out of the car in the latter part of the season, which we think will start 2013 off better, and who the team will support based on that.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:41 pm 
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Massa is back and I think he will beat Alonso over the season - if it were a straight fight. It could be a difficult call though because Alonso had earned that position and ity will require mega outscoring from Massa to shift Nando.

Atleast it puts into perspective , Kimi's pace wrt Massa (and by extension Alonso) . We can happily go back to thinking that Kimi was at least an Alonso equal without getting reminded about 2008 again.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:49 pm 
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If he can keep the pace up I would love to see him backed by Alonso, that would rise some eyebrows :-)


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:57 pm 
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priestlysabbath wrote:
Not possible without Felipe dominating from the beginning of the season, which in turn is going to be tough as the next year's car is going to be built around Fernando.

Exactly.

As much as I would love to see it so the world can see a repeat of 2007 - it wont happen.

Unless Massa from day 1 brings a strong performance by beating Alonso in the first two races he can forget it.

He needs to be ahead of Alonso in the standings every race to be given the shot. But I dont think Mr Team leader will allow that.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:06 pm 
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The whole "car will be built to suit driver A" thing is a bit of a myth. The designers and engineers will build the car that their testing and modeling tells them will be fast. Fine tuning is where particular style strengths of drivers come into play - deciding how to answer questions about the direction of development, and even then, they go with whatever is scientifically faster for the most part. Are there cars that suit some drivers better than others? Yes. But that is usually a consequence of the technical regulations of that particular year, or even part of the year, not necessarily the design choices of the teams.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 5:05 pm 
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Yes of course he can. Massa has always been quick. The only person who can determine a driver a number 2 is the driver. Massa has had equal opportunity at the beginning of all three season he has simply been second best to Alonso. That's not to say now he can't be better than Alonso it's simply up to him. A team will always lean toward the driver who will give them the best chance of winning the title( except Mclaren, How stupid are they but that's a different discussion) so its up to the driver. He's got his work cut out but's it's not impossible.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:25 pm 
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If Massa can prove to Ferrari that he is the better driver to lead Ferrari forward towards potential championship sucsess then he will be number 1.

Teams can't artificially enforce a number 1, number 2 scenario upon their drivers because, if the number 2 is every bit as good as the number 1, he's not going to be a good number 2 now is he. That's why Ferrari have a working #1 and #2 system. Alonso earned it on the track. If Massa wants to be #1, he has to earn it off Alonso, on track.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:31 pm 
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Massa will be free to challenge for title if Alonso fails to do so. Imagine that they are both very close in standings over the season, but in last few races, Alonso has few DNFs and Massa with 2 races to go is the only Ferrari driver that can challenge for a tittle. I'm sure that under such a circumstances Massa will be number 1. It happened in 2008.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:52 pm 
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I was going to simply answer "no". But Dizlexik put it very well; there is indeed a window that might allow Massa a shot. But not at being number 1, just world champion. The number 1 position was made abundantly clear in 2009: Alonso.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:07 pm 
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Theoretically yes, but will Ferrari allow it. Doubtful


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:08 pm 
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dizlexik wrote:
Massa will be free to challenge for title if Alonso fails to do so. Imagine that they are both very close in standings over the season, but in last few races, Alonso has few DNFs and Massa with 2 races to go is the only Ferrari driver that can challenge for a tittle. I'm sure that under such a circumstances Massa will be number 1. It happened in 2008.

That is called "by default" There *is no alternative* But by stating that you are agreeing with everyone saying no, it will never happen because the team will be 100% behind Alonso all year and even if (Alonso) he does have a couple of DNF's Massa will more than likely be too far back to make any difference, unless farreri get their act together which is.........


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:17 pm 
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no he cannot because alonso is faster for most of the season


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:24 pm 
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No.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:34 pm 
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When was the last time Alonso took kindly to his team-mate being #1 in the team? If by some miracle Massa manages to perform better than Alonso in the races despite the entire backbone of Ferrari giving Alonso preferential treatment, then the answer to this question will simply boil down to whether LdM succumbs to blackmail or not.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:17 am 
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Fernando and the title sponsor are inextricably linked. I do not think it is a meritocracy inside Ferrari. Sure, if Felipe was absolutely dominant (unlikely) then they would have no choice but to support him, but as long as their is any doubt, Alonso will enjoy an advantage.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:32 am 
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It would have already happened if it were possible. F1 is about doing the same thing over and over again. 306km at a time, it's robotic. Massa is a great racer but Alonso is consistent and in a car like the Ferrari consistent is better. The scary thing is that Alonso is probably better still in a good car. Massa picked it up at the end but to me he still has a ways to go to get back to his 2008 results.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:48 am 
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he needs the team to back him up as much as they did to alonso.

Both of them are pretty similar, cant perform well without building the whole team around them.

And sort out his mental, whcih started since germany 2010....

But he might face earlier retirement next year if he did, just like jarno did back in 2004.

Domenicalli is nando 's whore as much as Flavio was.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:53 am 
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NvrDieYoung wrote:
he needs the team to back him up as much as they did to alonso.

Both of them are pretty similar, cant perform well without building the whole team around them.

And sort out his mental, whcih started since germany 2010....

But he might face earlier retirement next year if he did, just like jarno did back in 2004.

Domenicalli is nando 's whore as much as Flavio was.


Domenicalli does what he is told. He does not have the authority to choose which driver to back. Fernando brought a title sponsor with him effectively buying the team for himself.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:15 am 
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This thread has got to be a bad joke. I just cant understand some of you here. FA has been considered by F1 drivers, teams, journalists and most F1 experts to be the over all best F1 driver on the grid for several years now and still for some of you that doesnt warrent any respect. The guy was almost faultless this year and I say almost because I feel he was 50% at fault with KR taking him out but then again one could argue Kimi could of backed off...anyways thats besides the point. FA still had a tremendous season and has consistantly been on the podium even though his farrari has never dominated this year. Where was Massa? How can anyone who knows F1...really knows F1 even consider for just a second after what we have seen this year but also the last 3 that Massa has what it takes to outperform Alonso?

Do you think that Farrari are imbeciles? That they dont know who is the better driver over all and who is more consistant lap after lap during a race? They have all that data that we dont have that enables them to see who is the faster, more consistant driver. Why the hell do you think they signed Alonso ? To be #2 behind Massa? Just for sponsorship? They dont need Santander with all the cash they have. No they signed Alonso cause they knew that Massa wasnt really #1 material and Alonso proved that hes was and has done so for the past 7 years. A few good races/qualis doesnt suddenly make you a better driver.

But having said all that...IF and thats a HUGE if massa for some odd reason starts to outperform FA on a regular basis and outscores him and is in a position to win the WDC then ofcourse Farrari will support him as Im sure Fa would too. Dont hold your breath though...It aint gonna happen


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:02 am 
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If Massa suddenly outperforms Alonso next year consistantly hell will have frozen over.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:07 am 
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No way,

Alonso with Santander and Botin have made him default NO.1.

It's not changing.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:29 am 
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nomster wrote:
No way,

Alonso with Santander and Botin have made him default NO.1.

It's not changing.



Alonso is #1 because he has earned it on the track. Massa hasnt been able to compete in the last 3 years and you think he should be given #1 status ? No he needs to earn it just like Alonso had to. The same goes for anyother # 2 driver in any other team. They need to proove that they can compete at the top consistanly. something Webber and Massa havnt been able to.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:37 am 
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Spyhawk wrote:
nomster wrote:
No way,

Alonso with Santander and Botin have made him default NO.1.

It's not changing.



Alonso is #1 because he has earned it on the track. Massa hasnt been able to compete in the last 3 years and you think he should be given #1 status ? No he needs to earn it just like Alonso had to. The same goes for anyother # 2 driver in any other team. They need to proove that they can compete at the top consistanly. something Webber and Massa havnt been able to.


Make sure you keep repeating this statement. It might become true if you do so so many times.

Do people really believe that Alonso's preferential treatment is only due to his performance or talent? You don't have to take it from me, search the internet and most recently check what Whitmarsh had to say about him


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:42 am 
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Yeah it's because of Alonso's talent that e.g. Mateschitz thinks it would be absurd for Vettel to go to Ferrari while Alonso is there.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:57 am 
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F1nsider wrote:
Spyhawk wrote:
nomster wrote:
No way,

Alonso with Santander and Botin have made him default NO.1.

It's not changing.



Alonso is #1 because he has earned it on the track. Massa hasnt been able to compete in the last 3 years and you think he should be given #1 status ? No he needs to earn it just like Alonso had to. The same goes for anyother # 2 driver in any other team. They need to proove that they can compete at the top consistanly. something Webber and Massa havnt been able to.


Make sure you keep repeating this statement. It might become true if you do so so many times.

Do people really believe that Alonso's preferential treatment is only due to his performance or talent? You don't have to take it from me, search the internet and most recently check what Whitmarsh had to say about him



Bottom line in F1 is winning. Do you think that any team in F1 doesnt have that as the number one priority at the beginning of each and every season ? Do you think a team that wants to win would not do all in its power to have both of thier drivers finish on the podium at the end of each race ? Every single team starts out the season hoping to have THE championship winning car/driver combo and they do thier best to give both drivers a chance at the highest honours. The only reason Alonso seams to be getting preferential treatment is because he is more consistant, out qualifies massa consistantly and out races Massa consistantly but most importantly is much much closer to winning the wdc than Massa is every single year.

Also do you think when a majority of Team Managers, drivers, journalists and F1 experts say that Alonso is the over all best driver on the grid and thierfore much better than Massa, that they are somehow wrong ? If you do then I dont think anything I say will change your mind on the matter because your hate of the man simply overshadows your capability of being able to see just how good he is so you would prefer to concentrate on his failings instead.


Last edited by Spyhawk on Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:10 am 
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If his form is the same as it was towards the end of 2012 season and unless alonso has some guranteed No.1# status clause I don't see why not : ). I hope he becomes No.1 next year ^_^


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:20 am 
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Maky wrote:
If his form is the same as it was towards the end of 2012 season and unless alonso has some guranteed No.1# status clause I don't see why not : ). I hope he becomes No.1 next year ^_^


I just cant really see that hapening. If you look at both thier carreers Alonso has been massively more consistant at getting the job done driving all sorts of cars while Massa has been coup ci coup ca(Up and down).


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:26 am 
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Spyhawk wrote:
F1nsider wrote:
Spyhawk wrote:
nomster wrote:
No way,

Alonso with Santander and Botin have made him default NO.1.

It's not changing.



Alonso is #1 because he has earned it on the track. Massa hasnt been able to compete in the last 3 years and you think he should be given #1 status ? No he needs to earn it just like Alonso had to. The same goes for anyother # 2 driver in any other team. They need to proove that they can compete at the top consistanly. something Webber and Massa havnt been able to.


Make sure you keep repeating this statement. It might become true if you do so so many times.

Do people really believe that Alonso's preferential treatment is only due to his performance or talent? You don't have to take it from me, search the internet and most recently check what Whitmarsh had to say about him



Bottom line in F1 is winning. Do you think that any team in F1 doesnt have that as the number one priority at the beginning of each and every season ? Do you think a team that wants to win would not do all in its power to have both of thier drivers finish on the podium at the end of each race ? Every single team starts out the season hoping to have THE championship winning car/driver combo and they do thier best to give both drivers a chance at the highest honours. The only reason Alonso seams to be getting preferential treatment is because he is more consistant, out qualifies massa consistantly and out races Massa consistantly but most importantly is much much closer to winning the wdc than Massa is every single year.

Also do you think when a majority of Team Managers, drivers, journalists and F1 experts say that Alonso is the over all best driver on the grid and thierfore much better than Massa, that they are somehow wrong ? If you do then I dont think anything I say will change your mind on the matter because your hate of the man simply overshadows your capability of being able to see just how good he is so you would prefer to concentrate on his failings instead.


you're absolutely right.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:26 am 
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Everything in that team is geared for Alonso, Massa ia disadvantaged to start with.
Alonso is default NO.1, everything is for him.
Alonso is a sore loser, when a journo asked him about Massa out qualifying him, all he had to say was something jealous and childish.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:35 am 
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nomster wrote:
Everything in that team is geared for Alonso, Massa ia disadvantaged to start with.
Alonso is default NO.1, everything is for him.
Alonso is a sore loser, when a journo asked him about Massa out qualifying him, all he had to say was something jealous and childish.



Im sure if Massa was the better driver then he would be #1 and Alonso would not be driving for Farrari. Come on folks. Do you really think that Farrari would intenionally hamper Massa's chances of being #1 if they truly thought he was better than Alonso ? Theres a reason Alonso is regardered as the top gun and its not because of Santander. Its because Massa has been nowhere for the past 3 years. Get a grip people.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:45 am 
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You don't get it?
Alonso came into Ferrari with Santander Chairman Botin who made business deal to have him as default NO.1
Alonso will never have accepted a "equal" or lesser role.
He is undisputed NO.1
No one disputing Alonso driving performance and skill BUT we will never know Massa true performance against Alonso because he has already been demoralised to NO.2 or you could say puppet little slave to Alonso.
Even if Massa next year out qualify Alonso a few times Massa will never get the support for NO.1


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:46 am 
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Felipe is a bit like Webber in that he can be absolutely brilliant but that he is also inconsistent.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:47 am 
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nomster wrote:
You don't get it?
Alonso came into Ferrari with Santander Chairman Botin who made business deal to have him as default NO.1
Alonso will never have accepted a "equal" or lesser role.
He is undisputed NO.1
No one disputing Alonso driving performance and skill BUT we will never know Massa true performance against Alonso because he has already been demoralised to NO.2 or you could say puppet little slave to Alonso.
Even if Massa next year out qualify Alonso a few times Massa will never get the support for NO.1

Massa was allowed to finish ahead of Alonso a few times in 2010, much to his rage.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:04 am 
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nomster wrote:
You don't get it?
Alonso came into Ferrari with Santander Chairman Botin who made business deal to have him as default NO.1
Alonso will never have accepted a "equal" or lesser role.
He is undisputed NO.1
No one disputing Alonso driving performance and skill BUT we will never know Massa true performance against Alonso because he has already been demoralised to NO.2 or you could say puppet little slave to Alonso.
Even if Massa next year out qualify Alonso a few times Massa will never get the support for NO.1



Your just speculating. There is no proof whatsoever of a Santander/Botin stranglehold on Alonso having #1 status in the team. Show me a link that proves your right on this. Massa has been at Farrari since 2004/2005 and has been well regarded by the team. He has had all the chances to be # 1 but failed. You need to ask yourself why Farrari grabbed Alonso. Knowing Alonso's temperment, his skill, his potential at winning WDCs and his past credentials, do you really think that they would sign up Alonso to play second fiddle to Massa? No when they hired Alonso it was to replace Massa as #1. As for MAssa being demoralized well Ide be demoralized too if the new guy was consistantly faster than me no matter what I did.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:16 am 
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Haha LOL!
Of course there is no web link to "proof" that Santander and Botin LDM did business deals to secure Alonso arrival and status at the the team.
This is confidential between themselves. And do you think Ferrari would even have publish their confidential meetings ... NO.
Even James Allen who is very tight with Ferrari connections has stated that Alonso controls Ferrari much more than Schumacher ever did.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:20 am 
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Massa's performance also went downhill after the "Alonso is faster than you" saga. It would had been a very special victory for him after his accident in 2009.


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