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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:10 am 
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Good article by JA as always and some good discussions in the comments too

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2012/11/hamilton-and-buttons-head-to-head-record-at-mclaren/

Hamilton v Button stats compared (highest respective tally in bold)

Qualifying
Faster qualifying time: Hamilton 44 / Button 14
Poles: Hamilton 9 / Button 1
Front rows: Hamilton: 23 / Button 9

Races
Wins: Hamilton 10 / Button 8
Podiums: Hamilton 22 / Button 25
Points finishes: Hamilton 45 / Button 47
DNFs: Hamilton 13 / Button 8
Best race result (inc DNFs): Hamilton 32 / Button 26
Ahead in two-car finish: Hamilton 24 / Button 13

Championship
Overall points: Hamilton 657 / Button 672
Seasons finished higher in standings: Hamilton 2 / Button 1
Highest championship placing: Hamilton 4th (2010, 2012) / Button 2nd (2011)


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:34 am 
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Interesting stats that are ripe for cherry picking to support multiple arguments :-P


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:39 am 
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Lojik wrote:
Interesting stats that are ripe for cherry picking to support multiple arguments :-P

No need for cherry picking when the only stat you need is this:
Overall points: Hamilton 657 / Button 672











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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:39 am 
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Thread is going to explode...

It always reminded me of the Prost/Senna package really. One fast (or should I say faster in raw speed) driver with all or nothing approach versus the calculated methodical approach of the other one.

One amasses the fastest laps, pol positions etc, the other one the points tally which is what counts in the end of the day.

All in all, it was great. Two super cool drivers with their ups and downs, some nice fighting on track, even with the odd incident between them.


Great three years indeed. Thanks to them both

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:43 am 
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Hamilton is better, the car failed him, thats all.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:45 am 
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:lol:

Read and enjoyed JA's piece this morning, thought of posting it here, then decided it would be madness.

Save time by copying and pasting:

Quote:
10 wins to 8 - Hamilton's miles better than Button, it's so obvious! Wins are all that matter.

Quote:
672 points to 657 - Button's miles better than Hamilton, it's so obvious! Points are all that matter.


Ask yourselves which of those two records you'd prefer. Is it the one your favourite drivers has?

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Last edited by Balibari on Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:49 am 
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SchumieRules wrote:
Thread is going to explode...

It always reminded me of the Prost/Senna package really. One fast (or should I say faster in raw speed) driver with all or nothing approach versus the calculated methodical approach of the other one.

One amasses the fastest laps, pol positions etc, the other one the points tally which is what counts in the end of the day.
All in all, it was great. Two super cool drivers with their ups and downs, some nice fighting on track, even with the odd incident between them.


Great three years indeed. Thanks to them both

Does it though? Although he couldn't take it down to the wire, Hamilton was at least in a title hunt in 2010 and 2012, beign talked of as a contender. Button never really managed it. I'm being devils advocate up to a point, I find these stats fascinating (and I like both drivers), the permutations and inferences are endless.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:49 am 
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Why let the facts get in the way of a good biased opinion! ;-)


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:55 am 
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Hamilton had a few crashes from key positions in 2010 that took him out of the title, yet, he was still in the hunt at the last race.

In 2011 he was involved in stupid crashes yes, it was his worst season and Button and him looked close.

In 2012 Hamilton is back to his best form, arguably better than ever before, he has lost as many as 4 wins (Spain, Singapore, Abu Dhabi, Brazil) as well as had numerous other problems. He was better than even Alonso this year imo.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:59 am 
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Balibari wrote:
SchumieRules wrote:
Thread is going to explode...

It always reminded me of the Prost/Senna package really. One fast (or should I say faster in raw speed) driver with all or nothing approach versus the calculated methodical approach of the other one.

One amasses the fastest laps, pol positions etc, the other one the points tally which is what counts in the end of the day.
All in all, it was great. Two super cool drivers with their ups and downs, some nice fighting on track, even with the odd incident between them.


Great three years indeed. Thanks to them both

Does it though? Although he couldn't take it down to the wire, Hamilton was at least in a title hunt in 2010 and 2012, beign talked of as a contender. Button never really managed it. I'm being devils advocate up to a point, I find these stats fascinating (and I like both drivers), the permutations and inferences are endless.


I completely agree. Stats are there to flatter someone, or do exactly the opposite. You can manipulate them.


The wording I chose was referring to the fact that the points do count, not only in the WDC but also in the WCC. It is still a team sport, let's not forget that. Apart from the personal glory, the team gains in the WCC by each and every point.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:02 am 
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infi24r wrote:
Hamilton had a few crashes from key positions in 2010 that took him out of the title, yet, he was still in the hunt at the last race.

In 2011 he was involved in stupid crashes yes, it was his worst season and Button and him looked close.

In 2012 Hamilton is back to his best form, arguably better than ever before, he has lost as many as 4 wins (Spain, Singapore, Abu Dhabi, Brazil) as well as had numerous other problems. He was better than even Alonso this year imo.

I agree with that actually, though before the USGP I would have given it to Alonso.

Hamilton's such a difficult driver to get your head around though, I really can't define how good I think he is. I've loved Button for years but I've never thought him genuinely top drawer if I'm honest. Ultimately it seems to me Hamilton has been faster the vast majority of the time since they've been teammates, but those stats are pretty compelling. There's a kind of similar dynamic at Lotus, with Grosjean seeming to have the legs on Kimi for much of the year... but just look at the numbers!

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:06 am 
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I prefer button the man but Hamilton the racer is better, as has been said how many times has each had dnfs from what position this year each time Hamilton retired he seemed to be near the front or at the front button not so much, it has been said already Hamilton the faster button the smooth thoughtful one, both are great drivers, but i cant help but feel had McLarens unreliability Hamilton would have finished with more points.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:15 am 
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Balibari wrote:
infi24r wrote:
Hamilton had a few crashes from key positions in 2010 that took him out of the title, yet, he was still in the hunt at the last race.

In 2011 he was involved in stupid crashes yes, it was his worst season and Button and him looked close.

In 2012 Hamilton is back to his best form, arguably better than ever before, he has lost as many as 4 wins (Spain, Singapore, Abu Dhabi, Brazil) as well as had numerous other problems. He was better than even Alonso this year imo.

I agree with that actually, though before the USGP I would have given it to Alonso.

Hamilton's such a difficult driver to get your head around though, I really can't define how good I think he is. I've loved Button for years but I've never thought him genuinely top drawer if I'm honest. Ultimately it seems to me Hamilton has been faster the vast majority of the time since they've been teammates, but those stats are pretty compelling. There's a kind of similar dynamic at Lotus, with Grosjean seeming to have the legs on Kimi for much of the year... but just look at the numbers!


The Grosjean comparison is probably accurate for 2011, but I do think the overall stats are skewed a little by what has happened this year. I know playing the "If" game is mostly a waste of time, but the large number of points Hamilton lost in 2012 through no fault of his own is extraordinary. I think it would be fair to say at least that Hamilton hasn't received an appropriate stat reward for his performance this year.

Either way I think it's also fair to say that Button has generally compared favourably with Hamilton, especially in 2010 & 2011 and that there perhaps isn't quite the vast gulf between them that many, myself included, expected at the beginning of 2010.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:21 am 
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This thread could go on for a while. At the end of the day, they're both evenly matched. You could say Hamilton should be 50-75 points higher, with much better stats if his McLaren hadn't given up, been underfuelled etc. But Button had problems too and would've had a podium at Monza, and some other pit stop issues which would've cost him a few points. I still think Hamilton has outclassed Button overall, and the stats don't show it, but stats are cold hard facts. That's my opinion.

Just think of it this way... when you want to see who did better, just choose who you prefer and choose the stat which fits your opinion :)

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:39 am 
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I may have something to add here, tonight maybe


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:44 am 
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both have been evenly matched but you have to admit lewis was unlucky this season. singapore, abu dhabi, spain (podium) brazil (podium) spa (top4 finish). but having said that button has done well against hammy i mean when he joined in 2010 everybody was like button will be humiliated and hammy was unbeatable, was not the case.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:47 am 
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jammin78 wrote:
This thread could go on for a while. At the end of the day, they're both evenly matched. You could say Hamilton should be 50-75 points higher, with much better stats if his McLaren hadn't given up, been underfuelled etc. But Button had problems too and would've had a podium at Monza, and some other pit stop issues which would've cost him a few points. I still think Hamilton has outclassed Button overall, and the stats don't show it, but stats are cold hard facts. That's my opinion.


Points lost due to mechanical failures and punctures are also cold hard facts. Losing the lead of the race due to a car failure is a cold, hard fact. Points are not the only facts.

The problem is people think it will even out over three years, not necessarily.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:01 pm 
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Eva09 wrote:
jammin78 wrote:
This thread could go on for a while. At the end of the day, they're both evenly matched. You could say Hamilton should be 50-75 points higher, with much better stats if his McLaren hadn't given up, been underfuelled etc. But Button had problems too and would've had a podium at Monza, and some other pit stop issues which would've cost him a few points. I still think Hamilton has outclassed Button overall, and the stats don't show it, but stats are cold hard facts. That's my opinion.


Points lost due to mechanical failures and punctures are also cold hard facts. Losing the lead of the race due to a car failure is a cold, hard fact. Points are not the only facts.

The problem is people think it will even out over three years, not necessarily.


Absolutely, got to take the rough with the smooth. Like I said, choose your favourite and choose the stats you like :)

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:04 pm 
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jammin78 wrote:
Eva09 wrote:
jammin78 wrote:
This thread could go on for a while. At the end of the day, they're both evenly matched. You could say Hamilton should be 50-75 points higher, with much better stats if his McLaren hadn't given up, been underfuelled etc. But Button had problems too and would've had a podium at Monza, and some other pit stop issues which would've cost him a few points. I still think Hamilton has outclassed Button overall, and the stats don't show it, but stats are cold hard facts. That's my opinion.


Points lost due to mechanical failures and punctures are also cold hard facts. Losing the lead of the race due to a car failure is a cold, hard fact. Points are not the only facts.

The problem is people think it will even out over three years, not necessarily.


Absolutely, got to take the rough with the smooth. Like I said, choose your favourite and choose the stats you like :)


The thing about modern F1, I mean F1 a la 2012, is that it fluctuates so wildly that it's possible to have your car problems when the car is competitive, and have your reliable races when the car is not competitive, and lose badly in the points standings because of that.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:33 pm 
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Sorry guys but a car failure when leading can only really count as a win lost if it happens with a commanding lead on the last lap, just because you're leading doesn't mean you wouldn't make a mistake. Racers just as good as Lewis have spun out while leading (Senna Monaco)

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:35 pm 
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SilverstoneRegular wrote:
Sorry guys but a car failure when leading can only really count as a win lost if it happens with a commanding lead on the last lap, just because you're leading doesn't mean you wouldn't make a mistake. Racers just as good as Lewis have spun out while leading (Senna Monaco)


That is a stupid argument. You could just as well say that your competitors might have made a mistake trying to catch you.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:41 pm 
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SilverstoneRegular wrote:
Sorry guys but a car failure when leading can only really count as a win lost if it happens with a commanding lead on the last lap, just because you're leading doesn't mean you wouldn't make a mistake. Racers just as good as Lewis have spun out while leading (Senna Monaco)

And then you could look at the historical likelihood of that happening and realise it's a bit of a none starter really.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:43 pm 
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So when it mattered (race day) Button was slightly better?

*locks the doors, lowers the blinds and hides in the bath* :lol:

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Last edited by Seanie on Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:44 pm 
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Eva09 wrote:
Points lost due to mechanical failures and punctures are also cold hard facts. Losing the lead of the race due to a car failure is a cold, hard fact. Points are not the only facts.


Not necessarily. Results are never guaranteed until the driver crosses the line. Who's to say his pace wouldn't have fallen away or he would've made a mistake?
Though having said that, it's very safe to assume Hamilton would have achieved the results without the mechanical issues.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:48 pm 
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Megamoss wrote:
Eva09 wrote:
Points lost due to mechanical failures and punctures are also cold hard facts. Losing the lead of the race due to a car failure is a cold, hard fact. Points are not the only facts.


Not necessarily. Results are never guaranteed until the driver crosses the line. Who's to say his pace wouldn't have fallen away or he would've made a mistake?
Though having said that, it's very safe to assume Hamilton would have achieved the results without the mechanical issues.


As I said there is not more likelihood of spinning out of first place than second place.

Spinning out of the race lead, especially in dry conditions, does not happen very often!


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:49 pm 
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Seanie wrote:
So when it mattered (race day) Button was slightly better?

Not really, when both cars finished, Hamilton was very much in the ascendancy.

Quote:
Ahead in two-car finish: Hamilton 24 / Button 13

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:51 pm 
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PzR Slim wrote:
SilverstoneRegular wrote:
Sorry guys but a car failure when leading can only really count as a win lost if it happens with a commanding lead on the last lap, just because you're leading doesn't mean you wouldn't make a mistake. Racers just as good as Lewis have spun out while leading (Senna Monaco)

And then you could look at the historical likelihood of that happening and realise it's a bit of a none starter really.


I only remember Schumacher crashing out of the lead twice, and Hakkinen twice, and this was when cars had less grip and Tilke tracks and massive run-off areas were yet to really make an appearance. Oh and the points system was very different.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:54 pm 
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SilverstoneRegular wrote:
Sorry guys but a car failure when leading can only really count as a win lost if it happens with a commanding lead on the last lap, just because you're leading doesn't mean you wouldn't make a mistake. Racers just as good as Lewis have spun out while leading (Senna Monaco)


Even with a commanding lead on the last lap you can screw up.

Ask Mansell about the kill switch :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:57 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
SilverstoneRegular wrote:
Sorry guys but a car failure when leading can only really count as a win lost if it happens with a commanding lead on the last lap, just because you're leading doesn't mean you wouldn't make a mistake. Racers just as good as Lewis have spun out while leading (Senna Monaco)


Even with a commanding lead on the last lap you can screw up.

Ask Mansell about the kill switch :lol: :lol:


I don't remember that incident, but instantly thought when I read your post "I bet the silly sod was waving or something". Having googled it, it looks like I might have been right :lol:

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/08/05/last-lap-losers-p22/


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:07 pm 
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Schumacher also lost third place in Hungary 1996 when he had to hit the engine kill switch at every slow corner, because the throttle was sticking and otherwise the car would push off the track in the slow corners. He then turned it back on again to exit the corner. His race eventually ended near the end when he accidentally hit the neutral switch, and the engine wouldn't turn back on.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:10 pm 
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Lojik wrote:
Johnston wrote:
SilverstoneRegular wrote:
Sorry guys but a car failure when leading can only really count as a win lost if it happens with a commanding lead on the last lap, just because you're leading doesn't mean you wouldn't make a mistake. Racers just as good as Lewis have spun out while leading (Senna Monaco)


Even with a commanding lead on the last lap you can screw up.

Ask Mansell about the kill switch :lol: :lol:


I don't remember that incident, but instantly thought when I read your post "I bet the silly sod was waving or something". Having googled it, it looks like I might have been right :lol:

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/08/05/last-lap-losers-p22/


Yip Waving such was his commanding lead and the engine "Died" . One version is he let the revs drop too far and the other his he hit the kill switch. IIRC Head goes with the kill switch theory.

But goes to show, it ain't over 'til you see the flag.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:14 pm 
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Those stats make quite interesting reading.

Before reading this thread I bet most people would believe that Hamilton would be miles ahead of Button in most stats.

Anyone wanna compare Alonso & Massa? They've been team mates forthe same amount of time as Hamilton/Button. I'll stick my neck out here & say its going to be a bit embarrassing for Massa.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:18 pm 
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When they both finish the race Hamilton is in front 65% of the time, interesting fact.

Lewis beats him for poles and wins also.

Ron Dennis" We are a team all about winning, i don't care if we don't finish second in the constructors as long as we win the race" So Lewis brought them 10 should of been 13 Jenson brought them 8.

Jenson could of beat Lewis by 100 points and it means nothing, the race wins, poles and championships are what people remember. Glad Lewis won a world championship for Mclaren and gave them all the pole positions and race wins.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:20 pm 
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Eva09 wrote:
Schumacher also lost third place in Hungary 1996 when he had to hit the engine kill switch at every slow corner, because the throttle was sticking and otherwise the car would push off the track in the slow corners. He then turned it back on again to exit the corner. His race eventually ended near the end when he accidentally hit the neutral switch, and the engine wouldn't turn back on.

I think you have that the wrong way round lol, he used neutral to get round the corners and hit the engine of button accidentally.

Add for the thread it started out quite nicely, nut I fear the usual trolls will show up.

What those stats do show is that both are proper championship winning drivers, with differing methods to get to success. Playing into stereotypes Hamilton has his win all our lose it all approach while Button steadily collects the points. McLaren had a really great pairing they had drivers that could make up for the others weaknesses.

But as a bigger Hamilton fan, I have to say he's had terrible luck compared to button.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:24 pm 
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MclarenBullet wrote:
When they both finish the race Hamilton is in front 65% of the time, interesting fact.

Lewis beats him for poles and wins also.

Ron Dennis" We are a team all about winning, i don't care if we don't finish second in the constructors as long as we win the race" So Lewis brought them 10 should of been 13 Jenson brought them 8.

Jenson could of beat Lewis by 100 points and it means nothing, the race wins, poles and championships are what people remember. Glad Lewis won a world championship for Mclaren and gave them all the pole positions and race wins.


Glad JB won a championship for Brawn.. Something RB is unlikely to get again.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:34 pm 
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Ev0lutionz wrote:
Hamilton is better, the car failed him, thats all.


Thats only your opinion, not fact. That's all.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:44 pm 
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Look, Jenson is obviously a world class driver who can win the world championship next year but as he has said himself, he needs the car 100% to his liking.

Now Lewis has gone, he will have the car developed to his liking, he won't have a team mate infront of him in Quali and to be fair he does have a good chance nexy year.

Lewis is the faster driver and i without silly issues would have been in with a real shout of winning the title this year but it's happened, Jenson has built team around him and fair play he has managed 8 wins.

Wish them both good luck, maybe Lewis a bit more :-)

last comment in this thread i think!


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:12 pm 
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MclarenBullet wrote:
Look, Jenson is obviously a world class driver who can win the world championship next year but as he has said himself, he needs the car 100% to his liking.

Now Lewis has gone, he will have the car developed to his liking, he won't have a team mate infront of him in Quali and to be fair he does have a good chance nexy year.

Lewis is the faster driver and i without silly issues would have been in with a real shout of winning the title this year but it's happened, Jenson has built team around him and fair play he has managed 8 wins.

Wish them both good luck, maybe Lewis a bit more :-)

last comment in this thread i think!


Equally he won't have Hamilton around to learn from. They both learned from each other, and Button won't learn as much from Perez as he could from a driver like Hamilton.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:16 pm 
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Johnston wrote:

But goes to show, it ain't over 'til you see the flag.


We should still count Hamilton's provisional positions when judging his competence against Button. If he had another car failure in the hypothetical continued race then we are back to square one (Hamilton was unlucky) again. If somebody wanted to use the "it's not over until the flag" in Button's favour, they would have to prove that Hamilton was substantially more likely to bin it in the scenery whilst leading the race. Personally I don't think that's the case at all.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:24 pm 
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Eva09 wrote:
Johnston wrote:

But goes to show, it ain't over 'til you see the flag.


We should still count Hamilton's provisional positions when judging his competence against Button. If he had another car failure in the hypothetical continued race then we are back to square one (Hamilton was unlucky) again. If somebody wanted to use the "it's not over until the flag" in Button's favour, they would have to prove that Hamilton was substantially more likely to bin it in the scenery whilst leading the race. Personally I don't think that's the case at all.


Provisional positions are just that Provisional.

The only ones that carry credence are the final results.

In most of Hamiltons dnfs there were something like 2/3rds race distance left. A Lot can happen in 2/3rds of a race.

Inc getting jumped at the restart after a safety car, getting a puncture, clipping a wall in the likes of Singapore lots of things can happen.

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Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."


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