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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:32 am 
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Muzzyf1 wrote:
superuser wrote:
It's a non issue because there is a green flag before the pass, it's just there is no green board there but there is a flag post with green flag, that is waved instead of the yellow flag at the exit of the pit lane in lap 3. Here is the evidence (from another well known F1 forum):

Yellow flag when the leaders pass the pit exit



GREEN flag when Vettle passes the pit exit after the Toro Rosso. So the overtake was under GREEN flag, non issue



/thread



He passed under yellows mate even his dash board indicates yellow and turns off after he passes the green flag!


The dashlights mean nothing. You follow the flags, they tell you what to do. Dashligths are just there to make it a bit easier for the drivers to know about the flags, but a waved green is still the sign of GO GO, no matter what it says on your dashboard.

Mod should change this topic's headline, to somehow indicate, that this was a false accusation.. Otherwise people will only read the OP, and just right into the last page and be missinformed.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:55 am 
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Mod_Blue wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
Mod_Blue wrote:
Guys cut out the pettiness before it gets personal. Thanks.

I'm not trying to be petty or have a personal argument, I just feel that much of the sillyness on this board stems from a lack of verifiable info. If more people said "I'm not sure what the regs say, but this is how i THINK it is..." there would be less misinformation circulating, and surely that's a good thing :thumbup:

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and they can post what they think/know the rules to be if they want.

If you have a problem with one particular poster we suggest either reporting them if they have broken the rules or adding them to your foes list so that you don't have to see their posts anymore.

However we will make it clear that posters can't sit and tell other people what they can and can't post and that is for everyone.

Thanks.


but what if there are mitigating circumstances? e.g they are really annoying


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:16 am 
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top news in Spain, please watch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfIs1wgJ ... ture=g-all


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:19 am 
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viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5446


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:22 am 
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No.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:23 am 
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Laura23 wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
mds wrote:
Now, one more thing: what if it had been a yellow sector? My question was sincere: what are the rules when people lift or brake?

Say Alonso had been first, Massa second, and there is yellow on a number of sectors. Would the rules actually allow for Massa backing up the entire field by going slowly? "Crawling" as Laura23 suggested? If it would be possible, I would be very surprised. If it wouldn't be possible, is there a clear line drawn (if yes, where is that line?) or is it up to the marshalls judgement?

It wouldn't matter as long as no one overtakes in the yellow zone. The point is unless the car in front has an obvious car problem then you cannot over take and Vergne wasn't crawling in this case anyway so that argument is irrelevant.

I started this thread because there was a video that pointed something out. Something that looked dodgy. Then someone came along and provided counter evidence to suggest the video was wrong. That is what forums are for, to debate things just like this and get to the truth. Eventually.

You do this a lot. People ask what the rules say, and you post your interpretation of the rules. Sometimes its wrong. Please post the text of the regulation that backs up your interpretation. If there is no written regulation pertaining specifically to a situation in which one driver is clearly trying to give up a position, then simply say, its not covered specifically in the regs.

Do you have to be so pretentious? Just because I don't have a copy of the rules glued to my side like you clearly do doesn't mean my opinions are any less valid. There is no rule about "crawling" under yellows. I'm sure if someone did so the FIA would have to make one though.

You need to stop being so aggressive towards people who may not know as much as you. It doesn't make them any less than you.

As it stands unless the car in front has a clear problem/spins off then you can't overtake. It's been that way for a long time. That's why in say Aus 2009 Hamilton could have in fact stayed ahead of Trulli under the SC because Trulli went off track ahead of him, but McLaren screwed all that up badly.

ashley313 wrote:
Laura - I'm not being pretentious and I'm not against people who post opinions. What I don't appreciate is people posting opinions AS fact. Don't answer someone's question about the text of a regulation with an opinion, especially if its not based on said text.

I think its kind of funny that you (or anyone) will cling to the no overtaking at all ever under yellows (except for when a car has a problem) because the sporting regs don't actually address overtaking under yellows other then when the safety car is deployed. So technically there is no rule dictating what you are to do when driving through a yellow flagged area and the driver ahead slows and moves over to give you a position, making the simple answer to the questions asked by mds and me (and others I think) "there is no specific regulation for that circumstance. " Further, in the rules pertaining to behavior behind the safety car, it does say you may pass if a car slows with "an obvious problem". What is an obvious problem then? Doesn't say. And lastly, the sporting regs only make mention of FLAGS. No light boards. No dash lights.

Ladies, can we all cool down a bit. Ashley, I have read your posts with interest up until now as you have seemed to me to be an informed & reasonably unbiased poster &, until Vettel & Red Bull won both Championships & you changed your sig, I had no idea that you are a Vettel & Red Bull supporter. Having said that, I have noticed that your posts have suddenly gotten more aggressive since then if anyone questions the end results of the season. Laura has been a long time poster on this forum & also an informed & reasonably unbiased poster so I am not sure why the two of you are sniping at each other. We have seen enough of that in the last few weeks, to the point that Dolomite, who must be one of the most respected posters on here, lost his temper & has said that he has had enough. That should speak volumes about how low this forum has fallen &, yes, before anyone else says it, I am a newly registered poster but I have been reading this forum for a very long time. I finally decided to register but I am starting to wonder why I bothered, considering.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:34 am 
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phyz wrote:
Balibari wrote:
phyz wrote:
Balibari wrote:
The one thing I've learnt from the season showdown is that the FIA should make sure the flags, trackside lights and dash indicators are all saying the same thing!

The dashboard light is connected to the light panels. How can you connect the manual flag to a dashboard light?

There is no contradiction here. The light panels and manual flags are deliberately placed at different points on the track. The rationale is this: If there is a crash right after a marshal post, the yellow flag will be too late. But by placing the light panels and flags at different points and using them as independent systems, you will always see one yellow flag (either a light or a manual flag) well before the accident.

That's a very sensible way of doing things and is clearly the best solution to the scenario you describe.

But (as far as I can tell without being able to watch this video at work) that wasn't the scenario in this instance. If you need to get the yellows out in a hurry, a brief mismatch will often be inevitable and nobody sensible would begrudge that. But if the track is reverting to green flag conditions, and the dash light is still displaying yellow, the justification you cite doesn't apply, assuming I understand you correctly. Furthermore, if the mismatch you describe were to occur, surely the yellow would take precedent (otherwsie what's the point in having lights and flags at different points?).

Let's say you have four points on the track: 1 2 3 and 4. 1 and 3 are manual flag points, 2 and 4 are light panels. They function independently of each other. If you have an incident between 2 and 3, flag post 1 and 2 both show yellow, while 3 and 4 show green. That is the scenario here. Now, once the driver passes point 3, he is free to overtake because he has seen a green flag (a manual one). His yellow dash light will only disappear once he passes the green light panel at 4. Incidentally, I'm pretty sure his dash light will not show yellow when he is between 1 and 2 even though the manual yellow flag is out at 1 and therefore, he should not be overtaking/going at full speed.

In general, marshal systems aren't designed for one flag colour to take precedence over another. In other words, marshals are expected to put the right flags out all the time. So once you pass a yellow, you slow down and the moment you pass a green, you're free to race till you see another yellow.

I see, thanks, I understand now.

Without understanding the detail of the system it sounded odd. Like if you approach traffic lights that are broken, one showing red, one showing green. In the event of such contradictory instructions carrying on is potentially dangerous, stopping isn't, so the red light should take precedent. Same seemed logical on track: overtaking is potentially dangerous, staying put less so, so the yellow should take precedent. Of course if the drivers all understand the system (which I didn't), the contradiction doesn't exist. Very suprised I've not stumbled on this over the years, you learn something new every day and all that!

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:55 am 
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The extent to which the Spanish media have gone nuts about this is now making more news in the UK than the yellow flag incidents themselves.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:04 am 
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No they won't. They will look like petty children crying because they lost if they try this. Especially at this late stage. If they'd done it immediately at the end or during the race then they may have stood a chance.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:09 am 
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This isn't something new. When Kimi won the title in 2007, McLaren also tried to appeal that there were irregularities considering drivers finishing ahead of Lewis hoping Lewis could still get the trophy. But that didn't work.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:32 am 
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Amon wrote:
This isn't something new. When Kimi won the title in 2007, McLaren also tried to appeal that there were irregularities considering drivers finishing ahead of Lewis hoping Lewis could still get the trophy. But that didn't work.

That was slightly different in that there was no doubt over the illegality of the cars in question. These yellow light controversies are far from clearcut.

In 2007 the BMW's and Williams' failed scrutineering, they were illegal, simple as that. Charlie gave the ICA a comprehensive report explaining how and why but they threw out McLaren's case because they protested a steward's decision not to disqualify them, not the actual race result. Reportedly because protesting the result would be seen as poor form while protesting the steward's decision wouldn't so much, but would still get the the result. The ICA claimed (presumably with straight faces) that the cars had no impact on McLaren! I think that's what's called 'being done'.

Goes to show how much the FIA/ICA don't want to change the result of a championship, which I can very much understand. But even as die hard Kimi fan at the time I found it all a bit crap.

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Last edited by Balibari on Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:34 am 
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No because they don't have a case. The marshal was already waving a green flag when Vettel started overtaking the Toro Rosso driver.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:44 am 
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This is really embarrassing for the Spanish media. I really don't understand this behavior. I certainly starting to fear that some nutcase from Spain may try to harm Vettel.

I would understand if the title was Alonso's and he lost it because of bad luck but it was the other way around. If the wasn't for Alonso's good luck, we would never even think about the title.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:53 am 
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RaisinChips wrote:
No because they don't have a case. The marshal was already waving a green flag when Vettel started overtaking the Toro Rosso driver.


But they hadn't passed it yet. That's a case.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:57 am 
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NRB78 wrote:
RaisinChips wrote:
No because they don't have a case. The marshal was already waving a green flag when Vettel started overtaking the Toro Rosso driver.


But they hadn't passed it yet. That's a case.


Yes they had passed the green flag. The marshal was holding a yellow flag when the front-runners came through, but he then he put it down and took a green-flag and started waving it. Both Vettel and the Toro Rosso car had gone past the green-flag waver before Vettel overtook.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:03 pm 
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NRB78 wrote:
RaisinChips wrote:
No because they don't have a case. The marshal was already waving a green flag when Vettel started overtaking the Toro Rosso driver.


But they hadn't passed it yet. That's a case.


They have passed it, and it's obvious on the onboard video too, if you care to see it:

Image
Image
Image

Video (the orginaly disreputable quality video used by the "expert" on youtube):

Image

It's interesting that Vettel activates KERS slightly after they pass the green flag, which means that he saw it (to answer the critic of the fellow forumer that Vettel was stupid to risk as he probably didn't see the green flag).

Also, when the flag was yellow, it's clearly visible on the onboard from Alonso, so the quality of the onboard is good enough to see the flag too (if you are not fixated the LEDs on the dashboard, which mean nothing for F1 rules, only flags matter):

Image


Last edited by superuser on Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:07 pm 
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superuser wrote:
This is really embarrassing for the Spanish media. I really don't understand this behavior.



But much like the world of quantum physics, you get used to it.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:16 pm 
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superuser wrote:

Also, when the flag was yellow (the previous lap), it's clearly visible on the onboard from Alonso, so the quality of the onboard is good enough to see the flag too (if you are not fixated the LEDs on the dashboard, which mean nothing for F1 rules, only flags matter):

Image


Is there no lights on for the Yellow flag in Alonso's car or am I going blind? If so it just further proves the point that it is flags that matter. Otherwise Alonso would be free to overtake.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:16 pm 
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superuser wrote:
This is really embarrassing for the Spanish media. I really don't understand this behavior. I certainly starting to fear that some nutcase from Spain may try to harm Vettel.

I would understand if the title was Alonso's and he lost it because of bad luck but it was the other way around. If the wasn't for Alonso's good luck, we would never even think about the title.



They just have to boo him like what they did to Lewis in 2008?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:17 pm 
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Spanish media is still on another planet. Not that other country specific media(British, Italian for example) are too far away sometimes, but the Spanish ones seem to always take the top spot when it comes to stories like this.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:20 pm 
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I am absolutely fed up of the xenophobia that some of you exhibit in your comments.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:21 pm 
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JerCotter7 wrote:
superuser wrote:

Also, when the flag was yellow (the previous lap), it's clearly visible on the onboard from Alonso, so the quality of the onboard is good enough to see the flag too (if you are not fixated the LEDs on the dashboard, which mean nothing for F1 rules, only flags matter):

Image


Is there no lights on for the Yellow flag in Alonso's car or am I going blind? If so it just further proves the point that it is flags that matter. Otherwise Alonso would be free to overtake.


Technically he's not in the yellow flag zone yet (unless there were other yellow flags before this one). I'm starting to think that the dashboard indicators change their state only when passing a light board and there is no light board there, only a flag post, which is the really stupid thing.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:35 pm 
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superuser wrote:
JerCotter7 wrote:
superuser wrote:

Also, when the flag was yellow (the previous lap), it's clearly visible on the onboard from Alonso, so the quality of the onboard is good enough to see the flag too (if you are not fixated the LEDs on the dashboard, which mean nothing for F1 rules, only flags matter):

Image


Is there no lights on for the Yellow flag in Alonso's car or am I going blind? If so it just further proves the point that it is flags that matter. Otherwise Alonso would be free to overtake.


Technically he's not in the yellow flag zone yet (unless there were other yellow flags before this one). I'm starting to think that the dashboard indicators change their state only when passing a light board and there is no light board there, only a flag post, which is the really stupid thing.


It's on in Vettel's car at the same time. In the video the yellow flag zone starts earlier.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:41 pm 
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superuser wrote:
It's a non issue because there is a green flag before the pass, it's just there is no green board there but there is a flag post with green flag, that is waved instead of the yellow flag at the exit of the pit lane in lap 3. Here is the evidence (from another well known F1 forum):

Yellow flag when the leaders pass the pit exit

Image

GREEN flag when Vettle passes the pit exit after the Toro Rosso. So the overtake was under GREEN flag, non issue

Image

/thread


Actually if you look at the picture carefully, you can see Vettel is behind a Marussia (or that is at least what I think he is behind), while the video shows Vettel overtaking a Toro Rosso. So unless I am missing something here, that picture was taken on a completely different lap.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:41 pm 
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JerCotter7 wrote:
superuser wrote:
JerCotter7 wrote:
superuser wrote:

Also, when the flag was yellow (the previous lap), it's clearly visible on the onboard from Alonso, so the quality of the onboard is good enough to see the flag too (if you are not fixated the LEDs on the dashboard, which mean nothing for F1 rules, only flags matter):

Image


Is there no lights on for the Yellow flag in Alonso's car or am I going blind? If so it just further proves the point that it is flags that matter. Otherwise Alonso would be free to overtake.


Technically he's not in the yellow flag zone yet (unless there were other yellow flags before this one). I'm starting to think that the dashboard indicators change their state only when passing a light board and there is no light board there, only a flag post, which is the really stupid thing.


It's on in Vettel's car at the same time. In the video the yellow flag zone starts earlier.


I'm not sure it's the same lap. I thought it's the same lap but it may not be. Anyway, the point is that the yellow flag at that flagpost is visible on the onboard video (not that good but clear enough).


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:50 pm 
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:01 pm 
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Balibari wrote:
Amon wrote:
This isn't something new. When Kimi won the title in 2007, McLaren also tried to appeal that there were irregularities considering drivers finishing ahead of Lewis hoping Lewis could still get the trophy. But that didn't work.

That was slightly different in that there was no doubt over the illegality of the cars in question. These yellow light controversies are far from clearcut.

In 2007 the BMW's and Williams' failed scrutineering, they were illegal, simple as that. Charlie gave the ICA a comprehensive report explaining how and why but they threw out McLaren's case because they protested a steward's decision not to disqualify them, not the actual race result. Reportedly because protesting the result would be seen as poor form while protesting the steward's decision wouldn't so much, but would still get the the result. The ICA claimed (presumably with straight faces) that the cars had no impact on McLaren! I think that's what's called 'being done'.

Goes to show how much the FIA/ICA don't want to change the result of a championship, which I can very much understand. But even as die hard Kimi fan at the time I found it all a bit crap.



Actually, I don't think those cars really failed srcutineering in 2007. The problem was the fuel temp was beyond the legal limit of outside temperature. Team gauges (and even some FIA temp sensors) showed it to be within range while the gauge the FIA always used for the measuring was outside of range. The next problem was the FIA never really stated what gauge would be used to say what is legal and what is not.

The FIA knew the teams with the fuel temp issue can easily challenge the FIA because there was a grey area of what FIA gauge to follow by.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:03 pm 
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Oh boy they just can't accept Alonso has lost & Vettel has won. :uhoh: :thumbdown:

Ferrari should just concentrate on getting their car quick for 2013 cos Massa is showing some great form.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:23 pm 
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Balibari wrote:
I'm surprised I haven't seen the 2007 fuel irregularities debate dredged up, presumably I've missed it. That appeared to be a pretty open and shut case with the Williams' (and a couple others I think) clearly outside the rules on fuel temperature. IIRC exclusion was the 'correct' penalty, and that would have handed Hamilton the title.


My recollection of that is exclusion wasn't the correct penalty. IIRC there were accusations that Williams and BMW had been more than the prescribed 10 degrees below ambient temperature. It emerged that there was no prescribed way in which the ambient temperature was measured, which meant teams could be using different tools/forecasts and/or taking their measurements at different points during the race (either at the start, when the fuel was being put in and at the end). Also IIRC Williams and BMW were not doing anything 'dodgy' (ie using this to have their fuel outside the temperatures), but rather going about their business as they always had and using the same measurements as they had always assumed should be used. AFAIK the matter of fuel temperature measurement was clarified so this couldn't happen in the future.

McLaren's appeal on the matter was inadmissible for the technical reason that they weren't a party to the stewards' decision and therefore didn't have the scope to appeal the decision and should instead have launched a protest after the race, but the ICA clarified what they would have ruled even if it was inadmissible.

Laura23 wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
mds wrote:
Now, one more thing: what if it had been a yellow sector? My question was sincere: what are the rules when people lift or brake?

Say Alonso had been first, Massa second, and there is yellow on a number of sectors. Would the rules actually allow for Massa backing up the entire field by going slowly? "Crawling" as Laura23 suggested? If it would be possible, I would be very surprised. If it wouldn't be possible, is there a clear line drawn (if yes, where is that line?) or is it up to the marshalls judgement?

It wouldn't matter as long as no one overtakes in the yellow zone. The point is unless the car in front has an obvious car problem then you cannot over take and Vergne wasn't crawling in this case anyway so that argument is irrelevant.

You do this a lot. People ask what the rules say, and you post your interpretation of the rules. Sometimes its wrong. Please post the text of the regulation that backs up your interpretation. If there is no written regulation pertaining specifically to a situation in which one driver is clearly trying to give up a position, then simply say, its not covered specifically in the regs.

As it stands unless the car in front has a clear problem/spins off then you can't overtake. It's been that way for a long time. That's why in say Aus 2009 Hamilton could have in fact stayed ahead of Trulli under the SC because Trulli went off track ahead of him, but McLaren screwed all that up badly.


By my understanding that is not quite right.

There is no prescribed regulation as to when a car can overtake another car under waved yellows. However, based on prior circumstances, it is generally taken by the stewards that a car can overtake another under waved yellows if that car appears to the driver following to be going unduly slowly. The driver following does not have to know whether or not the car in front has a problem - how could that driver know, and as pointed out it would be an easy way to hold someone up if overtaking was prohibited no matter how slowly the car in front was going.

The Hamilton-Trulli situation was a Safety Car one, for which there are prescribed regulations and so is distinguished from this situation. However, to clarify, Hamilton overtook Trulli because he went off, which was totally legitimate, and then deliberately slowed to encourage him to pass back so he would get a penalty. The stewards accepted Trulli going past IF Hamilton was in fact going slowly and had encouraged Trulli to pass, but McLaren denied that they'd slowed and encouraged it so Trulli was penalised. Then of course the lies came out.

If we extrapolated this situation to the Vettel-Vergne one, if he had passed under yellows then it would likely have been asked of Vergne whether he deliberately slowed to allow Vettel to pass in which case he would have said he did and the matter would have concluded there anyway.

Where the stewards will ONLY tolerate overtaking for a car that stops on circuit or runs off the track is under red flag conditions. At Hungary in 2006 Schumacher made the mistake of going past a slow moving Alonso under red flags, believing that Alonso going slowly with an encouragement to him going past and the stewards did not accept that as a justification and would only have accepted the overtake if Alonso had stopped or run off the track.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:47 pm 
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Sappher wrote:
Mod should change this topic's headline, to somehow indicate, that this was a false accusation.. Otherwise people will only read the OP, and just right into the last page and be missinformed.


^^THIS... please?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:56 pm 
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superuser wrote:
It's a non issue because there is a green flag before the pass, it's just there is no green board there but there is a flag post with green flag, that is waved instead of the yellow flag at the exit of the pit lane in lap 3. Here is the evidence (from another well known F1 forum):

Yellow flag when the leaders pass the pit exit

Image

GREEN flag when Vettle passes the pit exit after the Toro Rosso. So the overtake was under GREEN flag, non issue

Image

/thread

Mate Vette'ls dash said it was still under yellow so its a non argument.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:00 pm 
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Flags > Dash lights.

It was a green zone. End of.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:02 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
End of.

Has that worked on this forum like... ever? :D

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:05 pm 
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SteveC84 wrote:
superuser wrote:
conclusive evidence

Mate Vette'ls dash said it was still under yellow so its a non argument.

Mate, flags supersede dash or light boards, so it's a non argument, the track was green.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:12 pm 
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The FIA should open up the investigation and apply a 15-sec post-race penalty (their reasoning for the shorter penalty would be down to the shorter length of the Interlagos pitlane). Vettel would drop one position behind Schumacher and keep the crown.

What a kick to the nads that would be.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:13 pm 
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Okay if someone did get that penalty, what would that have been? Grid penalty? Time penalty? What? Btw which part part of the track did vettel overtake on yellow lights? I just watched the SKY commentary and I saw him passed Kamui under yellow flags after the Juncao corner..

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:16 pm 
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:thumbdown: x( :frown: :evil: :uhoh:

PLEASE try to read at least the first page of the thread before posting. How hard it can be?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:17 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
mds wrote:
Now, one more thing: what if it had been a yellow sector? My question was sincere: what are the rules when people lift or brake?

Say Alonso had been first, Massa second, and there is yellow on a number of sectors. Would the rules actually allow for Massa backing up the entire field by going slowly? "Crawling" as Laura23 suggested? If it would be possible, I would be very surprised. If it wouldn't be possible, is there a clear line drawn (if yes, where is that line?) or is it up to the marshalls judgement?

It wouldn't matter as long as no one overtakes in the yellow zone. The point is unless the car in front has an obvious car problem then you cannot over take and Vergne wasn't crawling in this case anyway so that argument is irrelevant.

I started this thread because there was a video that pointed something out. Something that looked dodgy. Then someone came along and provided counter evidence to suggest the video was wrong. That is what forums are for, to debate things just like this and get to the truth. Eventually.

You do this a lot. People ask what the rules say, and you post your interpretation of the rules. Sometimes its wrong. Please post the text of the regulation that backs up your interpretation. If there is no written regulation pertaining specifically to a situation in which one driver is clearly trying to give up a position, then simply say, its not covered specifically in the regs.

Do you have to be so pretentious? Just because I don't have a copy of the rules glued to my side like you clearly do doesn't mean my opinions are any less valid. There is no rule about "crawling" under yellows. I'm sure if someone did so the FIA would have to make one though.

You need to stop being so aggressive towards people who may not know as much as you. It doesn't make them any less than you.

As it stands unless the car in front has a clear problem/spins off then you can't overtake. It's been that way for a long time. That's why in say Aus 2009 Hamilton could have in fact stayed ahead of Trulli under the SC because Trulli went off track ahead of him, but McLaren screwed all that up badly.



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:17 pm 
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SteveC84 wrote:
superuser wrote:
It's a non issue because there is a green flag before the pass, it's just there is no green board there but there is a flag post with green flag, that is waved instead of the yellow flag at the exit of the pit lane in lap 3. Here is the evidence (from another well known F1 forum):

Yellow flag when the leaders pass the pit exit

Image

GREEN flag when Vettle passes the pit exit after the Toro Rosso. So the overtake was under GREEN flag, non issue

Image

/thread


If you look at the picture again, Vettel is behind a Marussia. The video shows that he was overtaking a Toro Rosso. That picture with the green flag was taken on a completely different lap.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:19 pm 
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superuser wrote:
:thumbdown: x( :frown: :evil: :uhoh:

PLEASE try to read at least the first page of the thread before posting. How hard it can be?


Apparently very. Thank you for posting those pictures by the way, I don't know why anyone bothered continuing the thread at all after that.

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