Balibari wrote:
I'm surprised I haven't seen the 2007 fuel irregularities debate dredged up, presumably I've missed it. That appeared to be a pretty open and shut case with the Williams' (and a couple others I think) clearly outside the rules on fuel temperature. IIRC exclusion was the 'correct' penalty, and that would have handed Hamilton the title.
My recollection of that is exclusion wasn't the correct penalty. IIRC there were accusations that Williams and BMW had been more than the prescribed 10 degrees below ambient temperature. It emerged that there was no prescribed way in which the ambient temperature was measured, which meant teams could be using different tools/forecasts and/or taking their measurements at different points during the race (either at the start, when the fuel was being put in and at the end). Also IIRC Williams and BMW were not doing anything 'dodgy' (ie using this to have their fuel outside the temperatures), but rather going about their business as they always had and using the same measurements as they had always assumed should be used. AFAIK the matter of fuel temperature measurement was clarified so this couldn't happen in the future.
McLaren's appeal on the matter was inadmissible for the technical reason that they weren't a party to the stewards' decision and therefore didn't have the scope to appeal the decision and should instead have launched a protest after the race, but the ICA clarified what they would have ruled even if it was inadmissible.
Laura23 wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
mds wrote:
Now, one more thing: what if it had been a yellow sector? My question was sincere: what are the rules when people lift or brake?
Say Alonso had been first, Massa second, and there is yellow on a number of sectors. Would the rules actually allow for Massa backing up the entire field by going slowly? "Crawling" as Laura23 suggested? If it would be possible, I would be very surprised. If it wouldn't be possible, is there a clear line drawn (if yes, where is that line?) or is it up to the marshalls judgement?
It wouldn't matter as long as no one overtakes in the yellow zone. The point is unless the car in front has an obvious car problem then you cannot over take and Vergne wasn't crawling in this case anyway so that argument is irrelevant.
You do this a lot. People ask what the rules say, and you post your interpretation of the rules. Sometimes its wrong. Please post the text of the regulation that backs up your interpretation. If there is no written regulation pertaining specifically to a situation in which one driver is clearly trying to give up a position, then simply say, its not covered specifically in the regs.
As it stands unless the car in front has a clear problem/spins off then you can't overtake. It's been that way for a long time. That's why in say Aus 2009 Hamilton could have in fact stayed ahead of Trulli under the SC because Trulli went off track ahead of him, but McLaren screwed all that up badly.
By my understanding that is not quite right.
There is no prescribed regulation as to when a car can overtake another car under waved yellows. However, based on prior circumstances, it is generally taken by the stewards that a car can overtake another under waved yellows if that car appears to the driver following to be going unduly slowly. The driver following does not have to know whether or not the car in front has a problem - how could that driver know, and as pointed out it would be an easy way to hold someone up if overtaking was prohibited no matter how slowly the car in front was going.
The Hamilton-Trulli situation was a Safety Car one, for which there are prescribed regulations and so is distinguished from this situation. However, to clarify, Hamilton overtook Trulli because he went off, which was totally legitimate, and then deliberately slowed to encourage him to pass back so he would get a penalty. The stewards accepted Trulli going past IF Hamilton was in fact going slowly and had encouraged Trulli to pass, but McLaren denied that they'd slowed and encouraged it so Trulli was penalised. Then of course the lies came out.
If we extrapolated this situation to the Vettel-Vergne one,
if he had passed under yellows then it would likely have been asked of Vergne whether he deliberately slowed to allow Vettel to pass in which case he would have said he did and the matter would have concluded there anyway.
Where the stewards will ONLY tolerate overtaking for a car that stops on circuit or runs off the track is under red flag conditions. At Hungary in 2006 Schumacher made the mistake of going past a slow moving Alonso under red flags, believing that Alonso going slowly with an encouragement to him going past and the stewards did not accept that as a justification and would only have accepted the overtake if Alonso had stopped or run off the track.
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