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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:40 pm 
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Why does this thread look like it's become a battle of Lewis and Jenson fans? If you can't play nicely, you'll lose this playground.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:40 pm 
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Fat Albert wrote:
There’s another really important statistic missing, cost, reputedly, over the three years Button cost McLaren Mercedes $30m while Hamilton cost $70m!

So Hamilton cost $40m more and scored 15pts less! Anyone with even the minimum understanding of business can understand that the numbers don’t add up!

Yes 'Fat Albert' but the other fact of the matter is that Hamilton is a global superstar and brings much advertising and drives merchandise revenue wh the team is run a a business expenseich Button and Perez cannot bring.
That's the real reason red bull are considering Hamilton as it will add more interest the the Red Bull Advertising Machine and drive sales "The real reason Red bull are in F1" they do it as a tax write off, wake up dude.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:55 pm 
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SilverstoneRegular wrote:
Don't shoot me but this is analysis conducted by a known HamLover!

And it's giving plenty of other HamLovers chance to read is and touch themselves in a pleasurable way...


I'm just gonna avert my eyes lol
x(

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:56 pm 
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PacificBeach wrote:
There is one more aspect Button schooled Hamilton, wet weather races:

I think Button won 5 wet races while at McLaren (Australia 2010, China 2010, Canada 2011, Hungary 2011, Brasil 2012 ).

If I remember correctly, Lewis managed to win one wet race when he was Button's teammate (Spa 2010).


Both Canada 2011 and Brasil 2012 Lewis didn't finish. Both times taken out by a stupid mistake from the opposing driver. Ps China 2010 Lewis made 4 Pitstops opposed too JB's 2 pitstops and Lewis still managed too end up right behind him in 2nd.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:57 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
Haribo wrote:
Johnston wrote:
Haribo wrote:
As far as I remember Jenson Button had 2 gearboxfailures & a fuel pump failure, too.
Button was lucky his gearboxfailures happened at FPs and the other failure they found before the race.
An anti Roll bar is nothing a driver can break, the mass damper/ suspension failure was there before the car was run, it was only discovered after the race. I remember, you had this discussion before here about the gearboxes and it went not well for you.
What about the broken pedal at Jenson Buttons car at qualifying at Texas GP , maybe he pushed it too hard?



Yes anti roll bars can be broken by drivers. Remember load from bumps goes through anti roll bars too.

One of JBs gearbox failures was a diff. Funnily enough BOTH cars suffered diff failures after rear punctures.

The other mass damper/extra shock thing happened sometime around FP3 and Q1 only Lewis thought it was set up .

But point out where I said EVERY failure was driver influenced.

To break the anti roll bar you need some serious impact, it's one of the most stable parts of the car, I can't remember Hamilton had any contactat at Yemogam , any trip through the gravel, anything else wich would have caused the bar to break. There was nothing. Or did you see anything?


IMO the car from Hamilton had a faulty rear suspension, wich caused the problems with the anti roll bar the next race, too, Maybe the whole chasis / suspensions was damaged since the crash at Spa wich was a quite big one


So where did Vettel whack his a few years ago at the German GP and where did Alonso heavily whack his in Monza?

Oh and the next race wasn't the anti roll bar.

It's just a theory .Maybe it was a material defect at McLaren
Fact is anti roll bares are very stable. Hamilton did nothing to break it, with his driving.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:01 pm 
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Zblogger wrote:
Fat Albert wrote:
There’s another really important statistic missing, cost, reputedly, over the three years Button cost McLaren Mercedes $30m while Hamilton cost $70m!

So Hamilton cost $40m more and scored 15pts less! Anyone with even the minimum understanding of business can understand that the numbers don’t add up!

Yes 'Fat Albert' but the other fact of the matter is that Hamilton is a global superstar and brings much advertising and drives merchandise revenue wh the team is run a a business expenseich Button and Perez cannot bring.
That's the real reason red bull are considering Hamilton as it will add more interest the the Red Bull Advertising Machine and drive sales "The real reason Red bull are in F1" they do it as a tax write off, wake up dude.


I don't think he's a global superstar is he? You mean like David Beckham or Tiger Woods? He's a good driver, tad overrated and has just one slightly lucky WDC in six years trying, that's a global superstar?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:02 pm 
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Zblogger wrote:
Fat Albert wrote:
There’s another really important statistic missing, cost, reputedly, over the three years Button cost McLaren Mercedes $30m while Hamilton cost $70m!

So Hamilton cost $40m more and scored 15pts less! Anyone with even the minimum understanding of business can understand that the numbers don’t add up!

Yes 'Fat Albert' but the other fact of the matter is that Hamilton is a global superstar and brings much advertising and drives merchandise revenue wh the team is run a a business expenseich Button and Perez cannot bring.
That's the real reason red bull are considering Hamilton as it will add more interest the the Red Bull Advertising Machine and drive sales "The real reason Red bull are in F1" they do it as a tax write off, wake up dude.

This is nonsense nontheless. Nobody knows the exact salary of the drivers, only the teams & the drivers themselves.

And even if Lewis earned much more than Button, McLaren was willing to pay him even more in the future, so they must know he is/ would be worth it. They are the ones who see all aspects of them, somehow they must have been convinced Hamilton is more worth than any other driver at current grid , including Jenson Button

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:04 pm 
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Haribo wrote:
Johnston wrote:
So where did Vettel whack his a few years ago at the German GP and where did Alonso heavily whack his in Monza?

Oh and the next race wasn't the anti roll bar.

It's just a theory .Maybe it was a material defect at McLaren
Fact is anti roll bares are very stable. Hamilton did nothing to break it, with his driving.


actually you both have no idea what you are talking about, you don't know how the part in question was designed, made, tested, where it was placed and what it was designed for. and more importantly what broke it. so stop speculating about it.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:05 pm 
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Haribo wrote:
It's just a theory .Maybe it was a material defect at McLaren
Fact is anti roll bares are very stable. Hamilton did nothing to break it, with his driving.



where did I say he did?

Besides that how do you know he didn't?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:09 pm 
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SilverstoneRegular wrote:
Emerson.F wrote:
viariani wrote:
Jomox wrote:
Hamilton 2 / Button 1

Hamilton Wins.


Championship :
Overall points: Senna2 657 / No-Grip 672.. :lol: :lol:


Ad those 3 dnf where lewis was P1 and leading the race together with Catalunya being disq from Pole position and even then
ending up ahead of No grip. Thats about 95 undebateble points this year. he got Lucky on the final point score and you know it.


Undebatable? You don't earn points until you cross the finish line in that position and nobody knows what could happen over the remainder of the race

He could pick up a puncture an spin out!!!!!
I love F1 and even appreciate Lewis Hamilton's talent but much less enamoured by sections of his fans (that is your sig) now, to pretty much everyone here you are the one coming accross as the fan with serious problems, i'm a button fan (Hamilton too)and frankly you are embarassing, you are quickly coming the most narrow minded blinkered fan on this forum.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:10 pm 
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lunatic wrote:
SilverstoneRegular wrote:
Emerson.F wrote:
viariani wrote:
Jomox wrote:
Hamilton 2 / Button 1

Hamilton Wins.


Championship :
Overall points: Senna2 657 / No-Grip 672.. :lol: :lol:


Ad those 3 dnf where lewis was P1 and leading the race together with Catalunya being disq from Pole position and even then
ending up ahead of No grip. Thats about 95 undebateble points this year. he got Lucky on the final point score and you know it.


Undebatable? You don't earn points until you cross the finish line in that position and nobody knows what could happen over the remainder of the race

He could pick up a puncture an spin out!!!!!
I love F1 and even appreciate Lewis Hamilton's talent but much less enamoured by sections of his fans (that is your sig) now, to pretty much everyone here you are the one coming accross as the fan with serious problems, i'm a button fan (Hamilton too)and frankly you are embarassing, you are quickly becoming the most narrow minded blinkered fan on this forum.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:16 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
Haribo wrote:
It's just a theory .Maybe it was a material defect at McLaren
Fact is anti roll bares are very stable. Hamilton did nothing to break it, with his driving.



where did I say he did?

Besides that how do you know he didn't?

watched the FPs the qualy & the race. There was no incident, no off track moments, nothing

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:25 pm 
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Points over 3 seasons are irrelevant really. Points each season are what matters.

I am a fan of both and probably favour Jenson as he is from my neck of the woods but i have no doubt that Lewis is the better of the two. That seems to be the general consensus of most people in F1 who know more about it than we possibly do


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:33 pm 
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viariani wrote:
Zblogger wrote:
Fat Albert wrote:
There’s another really important statistic missing, cost, reputedly, over the three years Button cost McLaren Mercedes $30m while Hamilton cost $70m!

So Hamilton cost $40m more and scored 15pts less! Anyone with even the minimum understanding of business can understand that the numbers don’t add up!

Yes 'Fat Albert' but the other fact of the matter is that Hamilton is a global superstar and brings much advertising and drives merchandise revenue wh the team is run a a business expenseich Button and Perez cannot bring.
That's the real reason red bull are considering Hamilton as it will add more interest the the Red Bull Advertising Machine and drive sales "The real reason Red bull are in F1" they do it as a tax write off, wake up dude.


I don't think he's a global superstar is he? You mean like David Beckham or Tiger Woods? He's a good driver, tad overrated and has just one slightly lucky WDC in six years trying, that's a global superstar?



So he won his WDC by pure luck did he in all races across the season it was pure luck. He has beat every team mate in every season through out his career accept 2011, I bet that's is pure luck too in your eyes.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:38 pm 
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Emerson.F wrote:
PacificBeach wrote:
There is one more aspect Button schooled Hamilton, wet weather races:

I think Button won 5 wet races while at McLaren (Australia 2010, China 2010, Canada 2011, Hungary 2011, Brasil 2012 ).

If I remember correctly, Lewis managed to win one wet race when he was Button's teammate (Spa 2010).


Both Canada 2011 and Brasil 2012 Lewis didn't finish. Both times taken out by a stupid mistake from the opposing driver. Ps China 2010 Lewis made 4 Pitstops opposed too JB's 2 pitstops and Lewis still managed too end up right behind him in 2nd.


China 2010, there were 2 SC periods and Lewis did one of those pits under SC. The second one erased a 50 second difference between Button and Lewis to 3 seconds.

At Brasil the SC erased a 47 second difference between Button and Lewis, that is how Lewis could get back to contention. Lewis would be way back form Button and Hulk if it weren't for the SC.

Canada 2011 Lewis went for a disappearing gap and DNFed.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:40 pm 
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Zblogger wrote:
viariani wrote:
Zblogger wrote:
Fat Albert wrote:
There’s another really important statistic missing, cost, reputedly, over the three years Button cost McLaren Mercedes $30m while Hamilton cost $70m!

So Hamilton cost $40m more and scored 15pts less! Anyone with even the minimum understanding of business can understand that the numbers don’t add up!

Yes 'Fat Albert' but the other fact of the matter is that Hamilton is a global superstar and brings much advertising and drives merchandise revenue wh the team is run a a business expenseich Button and Perez cannot bring.
That's the real reason red bull are considering Hamilton as it will add more interest the the Red Bull Advertising Machine and drive sales "The real reason Red bull are in F1" they do it as a tax write off, wake up dude.


I don't think he's a global superstar is he? You mean like David Beckham or Tiger Woods? He's a good driver, tad overrated and has just one slightly lucky WDC in six years trying, that's a global superstar?



So he won his WDC by pure luck did he in all races across the season it was pure luck. He has beat every team mate in every season through out his career accept 2011, I bet that's is pure luck too in your eyes.


Just ignore him he clearly has a deluded agenda when it comes to anything Lewis Hamilton... He's bitter and more than likely jealous because Lewis Hamilton is a somebody and he is a nobody with a hate filled opinion.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:43 pm 
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You know, god help poor nico if he matches or god forbid, beats, Lewis next year. The hamiltonites will hang, draw and quarter him.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:49 pm 
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Jorvik wrote:
You know, god help poor nico if he matches or god forbid, beats, Lewis next year. The hamiltonites will hang, draw and quarter him.


Yep.. That and they will still find time to bash Jenson.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:17 pm 
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Zblogger wrote:
viariani wrote:
Zblogger wrote:
Fat Albert wrote:
There’s another really important statistic missing, cost, reputedly, over the three years Button cost McLaren Mercedes $30m while Hamilton cost $70m!

So Hamilton cost $40m more and scored 15pts less! Anyone with even the minimum understanding of business can understand that the numbers don’t add up!

Yes 'Fat Albert' but the other fact of the matter is that Hamilton is a global superstar and brings much advertising and drives merchandise revenue wh the team is run a a business expenseich Button and Perez cannot bring.
That's the real reason red bull are considering Hamilton as it will add more interest the the Red Bull Advertising Machine and drive sales "The real reason Red bull are in F1" they do it as a tax write off, wake up dude.


I don't think he's a global superstar is he? You mean like David Beckham or Tiger Woods? He's a good driver, tad overrated and has just one slightly lucky WDC in six years trying, that's a global superstar?



So he won his WDC by pure luck did he in all races across the season it was pure luck. He has beat every team mate in every season through out his career accept 2011, I bet that's is pure luck too in your eyes.


Lol calm down baby skates, You said pure luck, I said slightly lucky, anyway some would say Massa deserved the 2008 WDC due to the Ferrari parts on the macca and his mate Glock moving over but I'm happy with slightly lucky :) Made a right fist of 2007 though eh.. :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:19 pm 
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Moore wrote:
Just ignore him he clearly has a deluded agenda when it comes to anything Lewis Hamilton... He's bitter and more than likely jealous because Lewis Hamilton is a somebody and he is a nobody with a hate filled opinion.


Bitter and jealous card, ouch :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:20 pm 
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Fat Albert has got his facts a bit wrong bless him.

Lewis signed a 5 year contract after 2007 worth £70m

Jenson signed a 3 year contract worth £30m in 2010

so this Jenson scoring more points and is paid £40m less is funny

so it works out Lewis was paid £6m more than Jenson over 3 years


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:20 pm 
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viariani wrote:
Zblogger wrote:
viariani wrote:
Zblogger wrote:
Fat Albert wrote:
There’s another really important statistic missing, cost, reputedly, over the three years Button cost McLaren Mercedes $30m while Hamilton cost $70m!

So Hamilton cost $40m more and scored 15pts less! Anyone with even the minimum understanding of business can understand that the numbers don’t add up!

Yes 'Fat Albert' but the other fact of the matter is that Hamilton is a global superstar and brings much advertising and drives merchandise revenue wh the team is run a a business expenseich Button and Perez cannot bring.
That's the real reason red bull are considering Hamilton as it will add more interest the the Red Bull Advertising Machine and drive sales "The real reason Red bull are in F1" they do it as a tax write off, wake up dude.


I don't think he's a global superstar is he? You mean like David Beckham or Tiger Woods? He's a good driver, tad overrated and has just one slightly lucky WDC in six years trying, that's a global superstar?



So he won his WDC by pure luck did he in all races across the season it was pure luck. He has beat every team mate in every season through out his career accept 2011, I bet that's is pure luck too in your eyes.


Lol calm down baby skates, You said pure luck, I said slightly lucky, anyway some would say Massa deserved the 2008 WDC due to the Ferrari parts on the macca and his mate Glock moving over but I'm happy with slightly lucky :) Made a right fist of 2007 though eh.. :lol:


bit hypocritical of you to say that Massa deserved the 2008 title & should have won if not for certain circumstances, but you are quick to jump on people when they say Hamilton would have beat button if not for certain circumstances


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:13 am 
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Emerson.F wrote:
PacificBeach wrote:
There is one more aspect Button schooled Hamilton, wet weather races:

I think Button won 5 wet races while at McLaren (Australia 2010, China 2010, Canada 2011, Hungary 2011, Brasil 2012 ).

If I remember correctly, Lewis managed to win one wet race when he was Button's teammate (Spa 2010).


Both Canada 2011 and Brasil 2012 Lewis didn't finish. Both times taken out by a stupid mistake from the opposing driver. Ps China 2010 Lewis made 4 Pitstops opposed too JB's 2 pitstops and Lewis still managed too end up right behind him in 2nd.


I think Jenson is the king of changing conditions, full wet he is not as strong as a wet-dry or drying track. Korea 2010 in the full wet he had a really bad performance. Canada 2012 when it was wet he was going ok, but only when it became to dry did his pace pick up and he sored through the field. He also struggled relative to Hamilton in Malaysia this year when it was full wet.

But there is no doubt when a call is to be made of what tyre to be on, he is the man. He has won 8 races for Mclaren, 5 in changing conditions. Unfortunately only 88% of races have any rain, so its hard to challenge for a title when you only really excel in races that have rain. Nearly 50% of his career wins are the same (7/15).

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:18 am 
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Fat Albert wrote:
It is such a shame that so many confuse 'faster' with 'better'. There is no doubt that Hamilton is faster than Button over one or two laps, he is also clearly more aggressive when overtaking and can wring-the-neck of a car when necessary, however the evidence is not so strong over stints, even less so over races.

Chris Amon was one of the fastest drivers of his generation but he never stood a chance of winning a world championship because wherever he went he was dogged by bad luck, his gearboxes broke, his engines broke, he got punctures, he ran out of fuel, he had electrical failures, his collisions resulted in DNFs etc. etc., all while his team mate's didn't.

Eventually it dawned on everyone, including himself, that it wasn't bad luck, it was the way he drove. He broke the gearbox, he broke the engine, he used up the fuel etc. Next season we will see whether the Mercedes breaks more often in Hamilton's hands than Rosberg's...

For example, would Button's suspension have broken had Hulkenberg done the same to him at Brazil, I suggest there's a chance that Button, like Prost, would have read the situation and conceded the spot and lived to fight again later in the race

Does anyone remember that Ronnie Peterson was faster than Mario Andretti in the same Lotus?

Finally, Hamilton's departure leaves McLaren with an extra $20,000,000 or so a year to spend on Button's car, does anybody think that will not fund a tenth or two improvement in lap times? Or in pit stop practice? Or in component reliability?


Modern F1 isn't like that. You can't drive like a lunatic and break all the parts. It's unimaginably high tech.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:22 am 
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Johnston wrote:
Eva09 wrote:
Johnston wrote:
Eva09 wrote:
Johnston wrote:

But goes to show, it ain't over 'til you see the flag.


We should still count Hamilton's provisional positions when judging his competence against Button. If he had another car failure in the hypothetical continued race then we are back to square one (Hamilton was unlucky) again. If somebody wanted to use the "it's not over until the flag" in Button's favour, they would have to prove that Hamilton was substantially more likely to bin it in the scenery whilst leading the race. Personally I don't think that's the case at all.


Provisional positions are just that Provisional.

The only ones that carry credence are the final results.

In most of Hamiltons dnfs there were something like 2/3rds race distance left. A Lot can happen in 2/3rds of a race.

Inc getting jumped at the restart after a safety car, getting a puncture, clipping a wall in the likes of Singapore lots of things can happen.


I still wait for proof that this is more likely to happen to Hamilton than Button.

In both cases, what happened to the guy who took over the lead? Vettel and Raikkonen in Singapore and Abu Dhabi, respectively.

Hint: "WAR!!! What is it good for? Axxxxxxxxx Nxxxxxx!!"


And the flip side is where is the proof Hamilton would have finished where he was when he got the gremlins?


The flip side? The flip side is proof that it was more likely to happen to Button than Hamilton.

Look at the sentence I wrote.

Basically you are trying to drag the argument away from any issue of mechanical troubles.

By hook or by crook.

Do you really not think I can see what you're doing?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:30 am 
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Eva09 wrote:
Fat Albert wrote:
It is such a shame that so many confuse 'faster' with 'better'. There is no doubt that Hamilton is faster than Button over one or two laps, he is also clearly more aggressive when overtaking and can wring-the-neck of a car when necessary, however the evidence is not so strong over stints, even less so over races.

Chris Amon was one of the fastest drivers of his generation but he never stood a chance of winning a world championship because wherever he went he was dogged by bad luck, his gearboxes broke, his engines broke, he got punctures, he ran out of fuel, he had electrical failures, his collisions resulted in DNFs etc. etc., all while his team mate's didn't.

Eventually it dawned on everyone, including himself, that it wasn't bad luck, it was the way he drove. He broke the gearbox, he broke the engine, he used up the fuel etc. Next season we will see whether the Mercedes breaks more often in Hamilton's hands than Rosberg's...

For example, would Button's suspension have broken had Hulkenberg done the same to him at Brazil, I suggest there's a chance that Button, like Prost, would have read the situation and conceded the spot and lived to fight again later in the race

Does anyone remember that Ronnie Peterson was faster than Mario Andretti in the same Lotus?

Finally, Hamilton's departure leaves McLaren with an extra $20,000,000 or so a year to spend on Button's car, does anybody think that will not fund a tenth or two improvement in lap times? Or in pit stop practice? Or in component reliability?


Modern F1 isn't like that. You can't drive like a lunatic and break all the parts. It's unimaginably high tech.


Agreed, modern F1 is a completely different game. The car has over 1,000 sensors feeding information back every tenth of a second to the pit wall. From gearbox oil temperature, suspension loading forces, tyre temperature etc etc.

The good old days they did not have anything close to that, so it was down to the driver to manage all of those things "blindly" or using his intuition.

The example you give Albert, also has nothing to do with the point you made. That is down to racecraft (positioning of your car in a defensive way) and is not related to "mechanic sympathy".

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:44 am 
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As much fun as I had debating the merits of Hamilton vs. Button over the past few years...now all is said and done, quite frankly I am just sad to see the best team pairing on the grid going their separate ways.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:53 am 
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FormulaFun wrote:
viariani wrote:
Zblogger wrote:
viariani wrote:
Zblogger wrote:
Fat Albert wrote:
There’s another really important statistic missing, cost, reputedly, over the three years Button cost McLaren Mercedes $30m while Hamilton cost $70m!

So Hamilton cost $40m more and scored 15pts less! Anyone with even the minimum understanding of business can understand that the numbers don’t add up!

Yes 'Fat Albert' but the other fact of the matter is that Hamilton is a global superstar and brings much advertising and drives merchandise revenue wh the team is run a a business expenseich Button and Perez cannot bring.
That's the real reason red bull are considering Hamilton as it will add more interest the the Red Bull Advertising Machine and drive sales "The real reason Red bull are in F1" they do it as a tax write off, wake up dude.


I don't think he's a global superstar is he? You mean like David Beckham or Tiger Woods? He's a good driver, tad overrated and has just one slightly lucky WDC in six years trying, that's a global superstar?



So he won his WDC by pure luck did he in all races across the season it was pure luck. He has beat every team mate in every season through out his career accept 2011, I bet that's is pure luck too in your eyes.


Lol calm down baby skates, You said pure luck, I said slightly lucky, anyway some would say Massa deserved the 2008 WDC due to the Ferrari parts on the macca and his mate Glock moving over but I'm happy with slightly lucky :) Made a right fist of 2007 though eh.. :lol:


bit hypocritical of you to say that Massa deserved the 2008 title & should have won if not for certain circumstances, but you are quick to jump on people when they say Hamilton would have beat button if not for certain circumstances


I didn't say that, I said he was slightly lucky, I pointed out what some others had said, personally I was happy with slightly lucky, read back :) Still, thanks for pointing that out if it's how it appeared, I don't want to come across as a tinfoil chump/chumpette, Alonso's my man and he was beaten, no amount of coulda shoulda woulda whiny bollocks alters that so I simply STFU and take it on the chin, unlike the Hamfoils who keep trying to alter their mans points total :)

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 3:47 am 
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http://sport.uk.msn.com/f1/horner-hamil ... en#scptih$

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sp ... fight.html

http://www.f1reader.com/news/alonso-or- ... ttel-63558

I guess reading these articles by Lewis's peers and competitors they are more impressed with Lewis's Speed, qualifying , poles , Wins , front row starts , adaptability, and sheer persistence than the extra twenty odd points that Jenson was gifted by Lewis's Dnf's .

Red Bull and the other teams , know exactly what they are looking at when they watch Lewis and believe me unlike the naive Jensonites they are not fooled by those few points that Jenson managed to salvage from a season best forgotten .


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 4:15 am 
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You guys are forgetting the most important stat...

Episodes of Tooned completed:

JB 12 Lewis 11

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:48 am 
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What a shame, I really enjoyed the last three years, watching two quality drivers at McLaren. Too bad some fans only want to go down the road of "my driver is better than your driver, and you're a wanker if you don't believe me".


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:59 am 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
What a shame, I really enjoyed the last three years, watching two quality drivers at McLaren. Too bad some fans only want to go down the road of "my driver is better than your driver, and you're a wanker if you don't believe me".


It's been the strongest driver pairing for years, something McLaren is expected to have but now will be weakened (for the time being)

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:09 am 
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ashley313 wrote:
You guys are forgetting the most important stat...

Episodes of Tooned completed:

JB 12 Lewis 11


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: In your face HamI!!!! You loose!!!

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:18 am 
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CRUX of the thread
All the Button fans are hanging on to total points in 3 season and all the Hami fans are hanging on to DNFs...

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:25 am 
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Love the fact this argument is still going, as a JB/LH fan I can say both drivers deserve race seats but both drivers at times could of got the sack.

People say the points dont show the whole story of this season - Nor last. In fact at times Button was more unlucky last season compared to Lewis. It was Lewis's poor overtaking and mistakes that cost him.

Button was on course to win Monaco but Vettel was saved by a safety car due to the slower cars crashing. Button also didnt do a great job in Quali last season and still raced up positions. Remember silverstone for Button as well? Button had DNFs which were totally out of his power. Button last season could have "Wiped the floor" with Lewis like some are saying Lewis did to Button this year. Button probably lost about 60-75 points last season. Lewis probably lost the same this season.

What does that mean?

End of the story is Lewis still has much to learn, we have seen this with Over taking - Remember Buttons overtake on MSC last season where Lewis struggled lap after lap - Button made it look like clock work. Remember Australia 2012 this year Button got a better start on Lewis and Lewis couldnt match Buttons pace - whats the excuse there?

I love both drivers, both have their weaknesses, Mclaren have lost out because both drivers were the perfect pair - even Horner admitted it. People can say Mclaren need a different driver fast like Lewis but we saw that in 2007 and Mclaren won NOTHING. Both drivers got emotionally involved instead of just racing. Now as a result no team wants two fast drivers, they want two drivers capable of winning races - end of. Button and Lewis still can win races as shown this year.

And unlike many people, Button is man enough to admit that Lewis is the fastest team mate he has ever had and its hard to beat him unless he makes a mistake.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:27 am 
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PacificBeach wrote:
Emerson.F wrote:
PacificBeach wrote:
There is one more aspect Button schooled Hamilton, wet weather races:

I think Button won 5 wet races while at McLaren (Australia 2010, China 2010, Canada 2011, Hungary 2011, Brasil 2012 ).

If I remember correctly, Lewis managed to win one wet race when he was Button's teammate (Spa 2010).


Both Canada 2011 and Brasil 2012 Lewis didn't finish. Both times taken out by a stupid mistake from the opposing driver. Ps China 2010 Lewis made 4 Pitstops opposed too JB's 2 pitstops and Lewis still managed too end up right behind him in 2nd.


China 2010, there were 2 SC periods and Lewis did one of those pits under SC. The second one erased a 50 second difference between Button and Lewis to 3 seconds.

At Brasil the SC erased a 47 second difference between Button and Lewis, that is how Lewis could get back to contention. Lewis would be way back form Button and Hulk if it weren't for the SC.

Canada 2011 Lewis went for a disappearing gap and DNFed.


So thats how Jb won Canada 2011 because he was lucky with the Sc and the tyres right?

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:32 am 
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Haribo wrote:
Johnston wrote:
Haribo wrote:
It's just a theory .Maybe it was a material defect at McLaren
Fact is anti roll bares are very stable. Hamilton did nothing to break it, with his driving.



where did I say he did?

Besides that how do you know he didn't?

watched the FPs the qualy & the race. There was no incident, no off track moments, nothing



You don't need to spin off or go off tracks to do damage. Things like kerbs can do damage. Vet in Germany or Alonso in Monza didn't need to go off track or have an incident.

And did you see 100% of every lap?

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:08 am 
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I think that this has been a really interesting pairing. When Jenson first joined McLaren, I did think that Lewis would absolutely school him. That didn't happen for all sorts of different reasons but it has been interesting to watch especially as they are such different drivers. It will be interesting to see what they both do next year in different teams.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:34 am 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
What a shame, I really enjoyed the last three years, watching two quality drivers at McLaren. Too bad some fans only want to go down the road of "my driver is better than your driver, and you're a wanker if you don't believe me".


Teddy007 wrote:
Love the fact this argument is still going, as a JB/LH fan I can say both drivers deserve race seats but both drivers at times could of got the sack.

People say the points dont show the whole story of this season - Nor last. In fact at times Button was more unlucky last season compared to Lewis. It was Lewis's poor overtaking and mistakes that cost him.

Button was on course to win Monaco but Vettel was saved by a safety car due to the slower cars crashing. Button also didnt do a great job in Quali last season and still raced up positions. Remember silverstone for Button as well? Button had DNFs which were totally out of his power. Button last season could have "Wiped the floor" with Lewis like some are saying Lewis did to Button this year. Button probably lost about 60-75 points last season. Lewis probably lost the same this season.

What does that mean?

End of the story is Lewis still has much to learn, we have seen this with Over taking - Remember Buttons overtake on MSC last season where Lewis struggled lap after lap - Button made it look like clock work. Remember Australia 2012 this year Button got a better start on Lewis and Lewis couldnt match Buttons pace - whats the excuse there?

I love both drivers, both have their weaknesses, Mclaren have lost out because both drivers were the perfect pair - even Horner admitted it. People can say Mclaren need a different driver fast like Lewis but we saw that in 2007 and Mclaren won NOTHING. Both drivers got emotionally involved instead of just racing. Now as a result no team wants two fast drivers, they want two drivers capable of winning races - end of. Button and Lewis still can win races as shown this year.

And unlike many people, Button is man enough to admit that Lewis is the fastest team mate he has ever had and its hard to beat him unless he makes a mistake.


:thumbup: :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:40 am 
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zedd wrote:
Some comprehension issues here. The article and analysis are by James Allen a known "HamLover" as SilverstoneRegular puts it. Its not my analysis.

My analysis is here and this season has proven that it was on the money. Ham and Button can duke it out between who is 4th and 5th best.
http://forum.planet-f1.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2721
http://forum.planet-f1.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1754

I think the Ham fans who keep saying that he was very unlucky and if they added the points he lost due to his "misfortunes" he would have been champ. I say rubbish. You just cant do what-ifs like that. The guy crumbles under pressure and the fact that he was able to put on points later on was because he had no pressure at that time. Read the threads above and you'd see how I predicted it exactly based on my analysis and that is what happened.


Don't you think you are a bit hard on Lewis? i mean in 2007 the highly rated Alonso couldn't seal the WDC as well and Lewis was only a rookie who you would expect to make mistakes, and wouldn't expect to be able to match a 2 time WDC.

2008 he made some mistakes but also there was some car/team problems and he won the WDC in the end, Massa could have won it if not for Singapore and it is a shame that this affected the WDC but that is an irrelevant what if situation now and it was the same event for both drivers so it can be said for them both it was a fair situation. you are also forgetting that Massa beat Kimi that year as well


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