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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:11 am 
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http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104644

The end :nod:


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:12 am 
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All over now: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104644
FIA says 'no case' to answer in Vettel overtaking controversy

I can't imagine FIA being very happy about the noise that Ferrari made of this non-issue.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:13 am 
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As an admirer of Alonso since his first stint at Renault I really do not want him to appeal. It would be damaging for him and the sport for him to win the title on a technicality, whether it is right or wrong.

I'm sure if I was in Alonso's position I'd feel pretty bitter and upset... but take football for an example and the whole goal line technology saga. Major matches have been decided by phantom goals and goals that weren't given even though the ball was clearly over the line. You can't overturn the result in a match an hour afterwards when you've seen the video footage, so why should F1 be any different?

EDIT: Bah, I'm too slow

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:17 am 
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Berty981 wrote:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104644

The end :nod:



Probably not the right choice of words when the actual Autosport article ends with 'more to follow'. ;)


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:23 am 
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Ferrari has requested to the FIA a clarification on Vettel's overtake. And as I posted in the page 8. the FIA map was showing in Lap 4 that all the straight was under yellow flag..

Also there's a video that compares the original video with the GIF created, and it shows that the green flag is only in the GIF (it was manipulated)
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xvgyij ... -fia_sport


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:24 am 
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breathe wrote:
Ferrari has requested to the FIA a clarification on Vettel's overtake. And as I posted in the page 8. the FIA map was showing in Lap 4 that all the straight was under yellow flag..

Also there's a video that compares the original video with the GIF created, and it shows that the green flag is only in the GIF (it was manipulated)
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xvgyij ... -fia_sport


:lol: :lol: :lol: :twisted: It's all over dude! FIA just told Ferrari that the overtake is legal - green flag and all, and they just need to shut up.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:25 am 
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superuser wrote:
All over now: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104644
FIA says 'no case' to answer in Vettel overtaking controversy

I can't imagine FIA being very happy about the noise that Ferrari made of this non-issue.




Has Ferrari made a lot of noise though? Seems to be all media to me.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:27 am 
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Johnston wrote:
superuser wrote:
All over now: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104644
FIA says 'no case' to answer in Vettel overtaking controversy

I can't imagine FIA being very happy about the noise that Ferrari made of this non-issue.




Has Ferrari made a lot of noise though? Seems to be all media to me.


Yes. They officially wanted "clarification" from FIA. E.g. they weren't sure they have a leg to stand on so it wasn't appeal but "clarification". I'm sure that FIA are tiddled.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:29 am 
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breathe wrote:
Ferrari has requested to the FIA a clarification on Vettel's overtake. And as I posted in the page 8. the FIA map was showing in Lap 4 that all the straight was under yellow flag..

Also there's a video that compares the original video with the GIF created, and it shows that the green flag is only in the GIF (it was manipulated)
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xvgyij ... -fia_sport

This is a new development. So you're saying someone put a green flag in the gif. That does change a lot but http://blog.axisofoversteer.com/2012/11 ... losed.html has the video of lap 3 and 4. It is hard to make out but isn't there a green flag there?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:30 am 
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Thats not making a lot of noise though. Teams ask for clarification all the time.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:30 am 
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Berty981 wrote:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104644

The end :nod:


Good Lord, a governing body of a sport has actually acted swiftly to address a concern falling under their jurisdiction. UEFA, FIFA and the IOC could learn a thing or two.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:30 am 
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breathe wrote:
Ferrari has requested to the FIA a clarification on Vettel's overtake. And as I posted in the page 8. the FIA map was showing in Lap 4 that all the straight was under yellow flag..

Also there's a video that compares the original video with the GIF created, and it shows that the green flag is only in the GIF (it was manipulated)
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xvgyij ... -fia_sport

To be fair though they have to look at it from Vettel's perspective. He saw a green flag, making it legal from his point of view.
He doesn't have a view of an FIA map showing a full yellow straight. Vettel relied on his eyes and saw green. The FIA cannot punish him for that.

Probably the marshall's mistake for waving green in a yellow section but it's not Vettel's mistake for following what he saw (if he did actually see it!).

Kind of why I always had a problem with the penalty Schumacher got for overtaking Alonso at the end of Monaco 2010. One of the best overtakes I've ever seen. Schumi saw green and went for it.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:33 am 
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Berty981 wrote:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104644

The end :nod:


Not for some.

There are those who refuse to understand the rules, or those who are too blinded by their own bias to accept facts, who won't let it go.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:36 am 
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ImageImage


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:41 am 
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mrwayne wrote:
ImageImage



LOVE THIS!

Ferrari, one word.... pathetic!


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:41 am 
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mcdo wrote:
breathe wrote:
Ferrari has requested to the FIA a clarification on Vettel's overtake. And as I posted in the page 8. the FIA map was showing in Lap 4 that all the straight was under yellow flag..

Also there's a video that compares the original video with the GIF created, and it shows that the green flag is only in the GIF (it was manipulated)
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xvgyij ... -fia_sport

To be fair though they have to look at it from Vettel's perspective. He saw a green flag, making it legal from his point of view.
He doesn't have a view of an FIA map showing a full yellow straight. Vettel relied on his eyes and saw green. The FIA cannot punish him for that.

Probably the marshall's mistake for waving green in a yellow section but it's not Vettel's mistake for following what he saw (if he did actually see it!).

Kind of why I always had a problem with the penalty Schumacher got for overtaking Alonso at the end of Monaco 2010. One of the best overtakes I've ever seen. Schumi saw green and went for it.


I don't think there's a green flag, but if there was, I cannot see it on the video, but you are telling me that Vettel can see it doing 200kph+ but he can't see the yellow light in his dashboard? Really?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:44 am 
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breathe wrote:
mcdo wrote:
breathe wrote:
Ferrari has requested to the FIA a clarification on Vettel's overtake. And as I posted in the page 8. the FIA map was showing in Lap 4 that all the straight was under yellow flag..

Also there's a video that compares the original video with the GIF created, and it shows that the green flag is only in the GIF (it was manipulated)
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xvgyij ... -fia_sport

To be fair though they have to look at it from Vettel's perspective. He saw a green flag, making it legal from his point of view.
He doesn't have a view of an FIA map showing a full yellow straight. Vettel relied on his eyes and saw green. The FIA cannot punish him for that.

Probably the marshall's mistake for waving green in a yellow section but it's not Vettel's mistake for following what he saw (if he did actually see it!).

Kind of why I always had a problem with the penalty Schumacher got for overtaking Alonso at the end of Monaco 2010. One of the best overtakes I've ever seen. Schumi saw green and went for it.


I don't think there's a green flag, but if there was, I cannot see it on the video, but you are telling me that Vettel can see it doing 200kph+ but he can't see the yellow light in his dashboard? Really?

The green flag takes precedence over his dash light. This has been discussed to death earlier in this thread. You're now questioning if the green flag existed. The video is blurry so it's hard to say so conclusively. But I think there is one.

Also remember that the human eye can see much better in those conditions so if there was a flag, Vettel is unlikely to have missed it.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:45 am 
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breathe wrote:
I don't think there's a green flag, but if there was, I cannot see it on the video, but you are telling me that Vettel can see it doing 200kph+ but he can't see the yellow light in his dashboard? Really?


Seriously man, stop referring to the dashboard. It's there to aid the driver but has no official meaning - flags trump the dashboard.

The video wasn't clear because it being low definition. Drivers see it much more in detail. Yes, he would have seen the flag. Why do you think he used the KERS button AFTER the marshall post (where green was waved) and not already before it?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:46 am 
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I wanted Alonso to win, but their protest never had any chance. If Vettel had seen green lights or flags he had right to pass Vergne. There is nowhere said that he must check all 3 (dashboard, flags and lights). IMO once he sees one green signal no matter what it is, he can proceed. He should have been given benefit of the doubt, because it's all FIA fault. There is nowhere in regulation which signal takes precedence. FIA created that problem when introduced all dashboard signals and light along with flags. It was only matter of time when they happen to contradict themselves. Of course FIA will once again fix rules and clarify it, but that should have been clarified from the beginning. On public roads the policeman take precedence over traffic lights then there are signs etc.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:49 am 
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mds wrote:
breathe wrote:
I don't think there's a green flag, but if there was, I cannot see it on the video, but you are telling me that Vettel can see it doing 200kph+ but he can't see the yellow light in his dashboard? Really?


Seriously man, stop referring to the dashboard. It's there to aid the driver but has no official meaning - flags trump the dashboard.

The video wasn't clear because it being low definition. Drivers see it much more in detail. Yes, he would have seen the flag. Why do you think he used the KERS button AFTER the marshall post (where green was waved) and not already before it?


Remember Schumacher overtake on Alonson in Monaco 2010? the Marshall was waiving the green flag and Schumacher was penalised with DT (+20s)

Also if you don't trust the dashboard, maybe you can trust the FIA Offial Map on lap 4

Image

Anyway, Ferrari has already requested a clarification on that, so we'll see the result.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:51 am 
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Wow... still going on even after the FIA say there isn't a case to answer. Looking rather desperate at this point.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:54 am 
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breathe wrote:
Remember Schumacher overtake on Alonson in Monaco 2010? the Marshall was waiving the green flag and Schumacher was penalised with DT (+20s)


Why do people bring this up?
He was penalised because there were specific rules regarding the entry of the SC and where overtaking could commence (and it was very much a grey zone anyway - the rules were adapted afterwards).

I don't see what relevance it has to this particular case. Please provide your reasoning.

Official reasoning is: flags and/or light boards are valid from their placing up until the next flag or light board. He passed yellow, couldn't pass. Then passed green, validating him to overtake.

Quote:
Also if you don't trust the dashboard, maybe you can trust the FIA Offial Map on lap 4

Image


Ah yes, and Vettel has, in his car, a highdef display showing the live track status on all sectors. I never did realise that!

Quote:
Anyway, Ferrari has already requested a clarification on that, so we'll see the result.


FIA has answered the marshall WAS waving green so the overtake stands.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:02 pm 
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mds wrote:
breathe wrote:
Remember Schumacher overtake on Alonson in Monaco 2010? the Marshall was waiving the green flag and Schumacher was penalised with DT (+20s)


Why do people bring this up?
He was penalised because there were specific rules regarding the entry of the SC and where overtaking could commence (and it was very much a grey zone anyway - the rules were adapted afterwards).

I don't see what relevance it has to this particular case. Please provide your reasoning.

Official reasoning is: flags and/or light boards are valid from their placing up until the next flag or light board. He passed yellow, couldn't pass. Then passed green, validating him to overtake.


I brought that up to prove that the marshal can make a mistake and can be de-authorized after the race, nothing else ( I hope you can see the point ). I'm sure Michael saw the green flag and thought it was legal and everything. But Ferrari requested clarification to the FIA and Schumacher was penalised.

I don't know why everybody is so nervous thinking that Vettel can lose the championship, I'm only bringing evidences, just relax and wait for the final veredict, FIA saying that they will not open a case it doesn't mean that Ferrari can't claim, end of discussion. It will probably not change a thing but it's worth trying.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:09 pm 
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breathe wrote:
I brought that up to prove that the marshal can make a mistake and can be de-authorized after the race, nothing else ( I hope you can see the point ). I'm sure Michael saw the green flag and thought it was legal and everything. But Ferrari requested clarification to the FIA and Schumacher was penalised.


But like I said, the big difference between then and now is that there is a rule in place that regulates when drivers can start to pass when the SC enters the pit. Drivers are expected to know that. I still think Schumachers pass back then was legal according to the written rules that existed then, but that's another discussion.

Point is, in this case:
a) flags trump the dashboard lights
b) Vettel could never have known the green flag wasn't correct. For all he knew the dashboard lights were failing, or the dashboard lights are simply synchronized at every light board and not at flag posts.

Quote:
I don't know why everybody is so nervous thinking that Vettel can lose the championship


Why do you think I'm nervous? I am quite confident about the outcome. It's just tiring to see the same arguments repeated and repeated, when they have been soundly proven wrong or irrelevant.

Quote:
FIA saying that they will not open a case it doesn't mean that Ferrari can't claim, end of discussion.


That's true, but with FIA actually saying the marshall at that post was waving green, Ferrari would gain nothing. It's really done and dusted now.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:11 pm 
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I rarely post here but always read. I can't understand why there is any confusion here.

Vettel passes a yellow light board - No overtaking
Vettel then passes a marshal waving a green flag - Overtaking allowed
Vettel then overtakes Vergne - Legal
FIA confirm Vettel and Red Bull have no case to answer
Confusion continues - Why?

Yellow lights on Vettels dash mean nothing if a marshal is waving a green flag, this has been pointed out by various posters here already.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:13 pm 
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phyz wrote:
The light panels and manual flags are deliberately placed at different points on the track. The rationale is this: If there is a crash right after a marshal post, the yellow flag will be too late. But by placing the light panels and flags at different points and using them as independent systems, you will always see one yellow flag (either a light or a manual flag) well before the accident.


Implying that a yellow signal, either as a physical waved flag, a panel/dash light should never be ignored..
I'm assuming that the panels and the dash lights are both connected electronically and remotely, meaning there is no/negligible/discernible difference in their timing.

Apologies if this is wrong, I haven't read through everything yet...very interesting discussion though :)

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:14 pm 
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breathe wrote:

Also if you don't trust the dashboard, maybe you can trust the FIA Offial Map on lap 4

ahhh... right... every flag a marshall has with him has built-in gps and by waving the flag the gps automatically activates so that the official fia map is always exactly up to date where there is a yellow-zone and where blue dots are blinking around...

seriously - if a hazard is defined at i.e. turn 3, then there is yellow in turn 3, but not the whole sector... however the graphics are linked to the flashing boards, so the graphic loses out to the flags as do boards and dashboard LEDs...

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:15 pm 
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LOL questioning whether someone photoshopped (or videoshopped) a greenflag in the GIF! You can't make this stuff up!


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:16 pm 
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mds wrote:
For all he knew the dashboard lights were failing, or the dashboard lights are simply synchronized at every light board and not at flag posts.


Okay thanks, that settles it for me.

I think they should attempt to improve the synchronicity of those electronic systems though.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:17 pm 
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@mds I'm sure is not going to change anything but it would be nice if the explain things like this (Lap 3 one lap before the incident)

When the front runners are on the straight.. there's a yellow flag:
Image

When Vettel reaches the Straight, the flag changes to green but Maldonado's carr still in the same position
Image

Also in other forums they were suggesting that it was because that marshal is there for the pitlane exit, but I'm not sure :)


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:20 pm 
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purchville wrote:
mds wrote:
For all he knew the dashboard lights were failing, or the dashboard lights are simply synchronized at every light board and not at flag posts.


Okay thanks, that settles it for me.

I think they should attempt to improve the synchronicity of those electronic systems though.


That I agree completely. It shouldn't really be too hard - just let the marshall push a button when he switches to green, or yellow, or whatever, which will trigger the dashboard.

But even then flags should have priority, since the marshall might forget to push the button and the driver still reacts when he sees green.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:23 pm 
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breathe wrote:
@mds I'm sure is not going to change anything but it would be nice if the explain things like this (Lap 3 one lap before the incident)

...

When Vettel reaches the Straight, the flag changes to green but Maldonado's carr still in the same position


Well, maybe they deemed the situation under control and safe? Surely the position of Maldonado's car doesn't impact the safety on the straight after the marshall post, so there would be no reason to keep on waving yellow?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:25 pm 
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mds wrote:
breathe wrote:
@mds I'm sure is not going to change anything but it would be nice if the explain things like this (Lap 3 one lap before the incident)

...

When Vettel reaches the Straight, the flag changes to green but Maldonado's carr still in the same position


Well, maybe they deemed the situation under control and safe? Surely the position of Maldonado's car doesn't impact the safety on the straight after the marshall post, so there would be no reason to keep on waving yellow?


My question is.. do the marshals act on their own.. or are they directed by race control? I mean if race control setted the straight as yellow zone, can the marshal decide if it's worth yellow?


Last edited by breathe on Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:31 pm 
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That I don't know, unfortunately.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:36 pm 
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purchville wrote:
Implying that a yellow signal, either as a physical waved flag, a panel/dash light should never be ignored..
I'm assuming that the panels and the dash lights are both connected electronically and remotely, meaning there is no/negligible/discernible difference in their timing.

Apologies if this is wrong, I haven't read through everything yet...very interesting discussion though :)

Not quite. You can ignore your dash light because it isn't synced with the manual flags. It is only synced with the light panels.

You may argue that a better system is needed but as it stands, the trackside equipment overrules the in car equipment. Hence Vettel can ignore his dash lights and go for it the moment he passes a green flag. The converse is also true. If he passes a manual yellow flag for instance, his dash lights will not activate. He still needs to slow down and refrain from overtaking. He cannot claim that his dash lights said nothing so he didn't slow down.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:42 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
Sarcasm. Yellow flags, before green flags, before yellow flags, before purple flags...

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit as they say.

Only unfunny people say that. People with a sense of humour appreciate sarcasm.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:43 pm 
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End of story, i think this thread can close.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 1:09 pm 
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breathe wrote:
mds wrote:
breathe wrote:
@mds I'm sure is not going to change anything but it would be nice if the explain things like this (Lap 3 one lap before the incident)

...

When Vettel reaches the Straight, the flag changes to green but Maldonado's carr still in the same position


Well, maybe they deemed the situation under control and safe? Surely the position of Maldonado's car doesn't impact the safety on the straight after the marshall post, so there would be no reason to keep on waving yellow?


My question is.. do the marshals act on their own.. or are they directed by race control? I mean if race control setted the straight as yellow zone, can the marshal decide if it's worth yellow?



I bet the marshal is in on the whole conspiracy too.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 1:13 pm 
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I'm completely lost now! :lol:

For those of us who just want to understand what happened and would rather avoid the classy gloating and childish raging... what's the story? There seem to be at least two issues that aren't settled, or at least don't appear to be settled to those of us with work-limited access to some of the links produced as evidence.

1. Is the green flag real?

2. Assuming it is, has the yellow light, green flag, yellow light issue been settled? At one point I understood it and vettel seemed in the clear. I'm so confused I'm not sure anymore.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 1:16 pm 
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Balibari wrote:
I'm completely lost now! :lol:

For those of us who just want to understand what happened and would rather avoid the classy gloating and childish raging... what's the story? There seem to be at least two issues that aren't settled, or at least don't appear to be settled to those of us with work-limited access to some of the links produced as evidence.

1. Is the green flag real?

2. Assuming it is, has the yellow light, green flag, yellow light issue been settled? At one point I understood it and vettel seemed in the clear. I'm so confused I'm not sure anymore.


The Flag was green, the FIA have confirmed this.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20541589

Quote:
"The incident wasn't reported to stewards in the first place because it didn't seem like there was a need to report it at the time," Norman Howell, the director of communications for the International Automobile Federation (FIA), said. "Now that Ferrari has sent us a letter asking for an explanation we will give it to them."

That means the move was viewed at the time as legitimate and so race control, which judges potential infringements, was not informed and the stewards did not become involved.

BBC Sport understands that several team bosses have seen the footage of the incident and agree that there was a green flag at the marshals' post.


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