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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:51 pm 
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To my surprise, Alonso was not the quicker driver in a couple of last races at Ferrari. That car was capable of more, like Massa showed.

He lost two titles in last races in three years. He seem to be deeply disturbed, to the point of taking any possible way to turn the things around (thinking about winning on appeal), and avoiding to congratulate Vettel.

Is he spent? Are his good days over? Will he go downwards from here? I take this as a possible thing, because he already went worse than Massa in USA and Brazil which is very strange for a driver of his caliber - or perhaps what used to be.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 10:03 pm 
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I think it was just all the strain and pressure throught the year, and maybe the realisation that he wasn't going to win the title (Wether he admitted it or not). I think he will come back fighting again next year.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 10:20 pm 
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He did congratulate vettel during media interviews it was shown on sky, as for bad races anyone can have them, Alonso just happened to have less than perfect qualifying towards the tail end where Massa excelled. As for his resorting to any means the gear box and the appeals were lodged by Ferrari not Alonso. His season for me was decided at spa i think once he got rogro'd and the 30 odd point lead vanished he knew mentally red bull would have the strongest car at the tail end of the season and knew he would struggle.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 10:34 pm 
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I dont understand how some people can reason that Alonso is going down hill just because he was out qualified in the last 2 races out of the whole season. Do you know of any driver thats never been outqualified by his teammate ? It happens to the best. Alonso is not super human. Even though his season was almost faultless, he's still only human and it goes to reason that even though Massa is not the complete Driver Alonso is, Massa can still out drive him here and there when MAssa is on his game and Alonso isnt or when the car/circuit suits one driver over the other or when setup for qualifying is realy a race setup for one and not the other. There can be many factors that can explain Alonso's poor qualifying in relation to Massa at the the end of the season other than Alonso suddenly loosing all his talent.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 10:53 pm 
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So he gets outqualified and outraced by Massa twice out of what, 20 races? And suddenly he's going downhill? C'mon man. The guy isn't superhuman. Every driver will have those days where they're outqualified and out raced by their teammates. It happens to the best. It just so happens that it happened twice consecutively at the tail end of the season so it looked like he was struggling. He didn't suddenly loose all his talent in two weekends. Maybe Massa finally got his act together, maybe they missed a trick on set up, wrong upgrade combo's etc etc.

I'm pretty sure it was Ferrari and not Alonso who was considering the appeal. All those news articles about "Alonso believed to be pushing Ferrari for a protest" was just a load of media bullshit to make a story out of nothing. I'm pretty sure he did congratulate Vettel after the race.

I can almost guarantee he will come back next season hungrier more than ever to win the title.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:20 pm 
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We are not speaking about qualification only - Alonso was slower than Massa in last 2 races, too.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:26 pm 
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Massa was always good at Brazil, Alonso maybe doesn't know the track as well?

USA too it's America & maybe Massa was feeling more at home with family around him?

I doubt he'll beat Alonso next year though if the car's half decent he could easy be top 4 or 5

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:36 pm 
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Rocket_Red wrote:
Massa was always good at Brazil, Alonso maybe doesn't know the track as well?

USA too it's America & maybe Massa was feeling more at home with family around him?

I doubt he'll beat Alonso next year though if the car's half decent he could easy be top 4 or 5


Is your post serious?

Finished 30 seconds ahead and outqualified him by 0.5 seconds there last year.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 12:34 am 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
We are not speaking about qualification only - Alonso was slower than Massa in last 2 races, too.


They weren't talking only about qualy, either. ;)

I personally would like to see your response to what has been brought up so far. :nod:



For what it's worth, I think it IS downhill for Alonso but not for the reasons you mentioned. He's 31 years old. I'm not sure he can get much better at this point. IMO he's as good as he's ever gonna be so that means it's only downhill for him, though he'll likely "plateau" for several years before beginning to decline.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 12:47 am 
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Inappropriate post removed.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 12:49 am 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
We are not speaking about qualification only - Alonso was slower than Massa in last 2 races, too.


Yes and you forget the four races where Massa gave Alonso on-track positions, and I am not even counting the shameful gear box incident or him defending for Alonso in Brazil.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:52 am 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
To my surprise, Alonso was not the quicker driver in a couple of last races at Ferrari. That car was capable of more, like Massa showed.

He lost two titles in last races in three years. He seem to be deeply disturbed, to the point of taking any possible way to turn the things around (thinking about winning on appeal), and avoiding to congratulate Vettel.

Is he spent? Are his good days over? Will he go downwards from here? I take this as a possible thing, because he already went worse than Massa in USA and Brazil which is very strange for a driver of his caliber - or perhaps what used to be.


There is a difference between Massa highlighting the speed of the Ferrari and how capable the care was of scoring points. Sure Massa highlighted speed but was it faster than the Red Bull's and Mclaren's no.. i think that only Korea can be argued to say the Ferrari failed to capitalise and thats if Alonso moved over and allowed Massa to go get Webber (which i doubt would happen anyway). No sure if you watched the other 17 races in the season but it might be worth you watching them again, Alonso has driven his best season just behind his 2011 iMO.

Fernando is like a fine wine, gets better with age ;)


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:11 am 
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Quark wrote:
Alonso has never been that good.

Then how did he build up a significant WDC lead in that Ferrari? indeed, how has he been in with a shout of the WDC in 2010 and 2012 in the final race in what was a 3rd or 4th best Ferrari?

Quote:
Inappropriate post removed.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:26 am 
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Quark wrote:
Inappropriate post removed.


Here we go again.......

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:05 am 
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Quark wrote:
Inappropriate post removed.


Word on street he doesn't have a superlicense as well. And he's running automatic gears, traction control and ABS on his Ferrari. And there's actually a video of Stefano and Fernando holding Felipe at gunpoint and telling him not be anywhere near Alonso's car during the race or there'll be concequences. And also can't make sandwiches and tie his shoes.

@ Drebin: sorry for posting sh^t in the thread, I'd just though I could give him some more stuff the next time he's talking about Alonso.

I agree, it's downwards for Nando from here, but I'm not sure it's this year or next year or later. He's 31 and although F1 is not exactly young man's game [19-24] (experience does count for a lot) his abilities will naturally start to decrease at some point. And Massa did show the car was capable of more, but crucially he showed that it wasn't more capable of the Red Bull and McLaren. You are using his form in the last 2 races as a way to promote your argument but actually for me his 2012 form shows nothing like it. In the last 7 races (Singapore to Brazil) do you know how many times a Ferrari outqualified a Red Bull or Hamilton? Twice. Alonso P7, Ham P9 in Japan; Alonso P5, Web P7 in Singapore. The whole he was battling against stronger packages and he was always there, until the very end. So, using 2 races where he got outqualified by his teammate over a 20-race season is .. you name it.

Alonso hasn't showed any signs his best is behind but it's possible that it is, given his age.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:58 am 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
To my surprise, Alonso was not the quicker driver in a couple of last races at Ferrari. That car was capable of more, like Massa showed.

He lost two titles in last races in three years. He seem to be deeply disturbed, to the point of taking any possible way to turn the things around (thinking about winning on appeal), and avoiding to congratulate Vettel.

Is he spent? Are his good days over? Will he go downwards from here? I take this as a possible thing, because he already went worse than Massa in USA and Brazil which is very strange for a driver of his caliber - or perhaps what used to be.

The fact that Alonso was even in contention in 2010/2012 is remarkable.

Whilst I think he became a little to risk averse in quali (compromising lap time), aside from that he was spotless as he was all year.

In the last few races it was Vettel that went round clipping his front wings, crying over the radio about "silly overtakes" (sounding "deeply disturbed") and almost binning his championship with a first corner spin, It appeared to be Vettel feeling the pressure.

It was also well publicised that he congratulated Vettel after the race and I know you've also been round here long enough to understand that it's the team that appeals results, not the driver.

I understand it's been a very hard for the Alonso hate mob and all the months of pent up frustration while he performed at a superb level must've taken their toll, but all these countless bashing threads since season end claiming the Ferrari was actually a wonder car, Alonso had Trulli booted from Renault in 2004 (curious since they remained good friends), Alonso had Kimi booted from Ferrari etc etc are getting a bit tired.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:23 am 
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cjf1 wrote:
I understand it's been a very hard for the Alonso hate mob and all the months of pent up frustration while he performed at a superb level must've taken their toll, but all these countless bashing threads since season end claiming the Ferrari was actually a wonder car, Alonso had Trulli booted from Renault in 2004 (curious since they remained good friends), Alonso had Kimi booted from Ferrari etc etc are getting a bit tired.


So, I am Alonso hater for spotting that he went downwards in last races and asking will it become a spiral to him? A hateful frustrated mob? Strong wording there, mate. Too strong.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:59 am 
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For a fact it was plain to see that Alonso was struggling in the car. I dont think Alonso has lost form or will loose it next year or year after that. Its just the car that he has that didnt have any pace towards the end. You may say Massa was faster than him. But how do you know Massa had the same car. Infact Massa was the 20 sec faster than Alonso, it just goes to show what a difference in setup there was for the 2 cars. Although I wanted Alonso to win this title, but I am not too big a fan of him. Just an unbiased and practical POV

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:14 am 
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On an related note, I dont see what his performance THIS YEAR has to do with Trulli being booted out or Nelson Piquet Jr crashing in THE PAST. Everyone in the "REAL" F1 world has been praising Alonso for the sheer determination that he showed. At every race the commentators kept saying he doesnt have SPEED in his car. I Have never even once heard them saying he has lost form or is not motivated or doesnt have the skill. I heard the exact opposite of all that. I mean these sort of comments are common on the main site. But then again there they insult everyone, even the greats. Its pathetic.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:52 am 
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lamo wrote:
Rocket_Red wrote:
Massa was always good at Brazil, Alonso maybe doesn't know the track as well?

USA too it's America & maybe Massa was feeling more at home with family around him?

I doubt he'll beat Alonso next year though if the car's half decent he could easy be top 4 or 5


Is your post serious?

Finished 30 seconds ahead and outqualified him by 0.5 seconds there last year.


I was meaning before his accident - 2007 he came 2nd after letting Raikkonen by & 2008 he won. 2011 wasn't his finest season by any means but he's only started to hit form late on this season

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:29 am 
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Alonso is not going downhill - not yet anyway. He has many more years of competitive driving left in him.

It is my firm belief that for some reason the Ferrari-Alonso combo is not working as well as either the team or the driver himself hoped. The Ferrari is not a slow or a poor car and definitely up there with the Red Bulls and McLarens to achieve results. And there is no question that Alonso is a great driver. But the reason that the combo is falling short is NOT because Alonso has to bring out the best in a moderate car but because a good car is failing to bring out the best in Alonso. Looking at this from the driver's perspective, Alonso has not been able to adjust his driving style to match the quirks of the car as well as he did with the Reanult in 2005/6 or even the McLaren in 2007. Even his good standing in 2010 & 2012 are, to a significant extent, due to Ferrari's relaibility and misfortunes of other frontrunners.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:42 am 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
cjf1 wrote:
I understand it's been a very hard for the Alonso hate mob and all the months of pent up frustration while he performed at a superb level must've taken their toll, but all these countless bashing threads since season end claiming the Ferrari was actually a wonder car, Alonso had Trulli booted from Renault in 2004 (curious since they remained good friends), Alonso had Kimi booted from Ferrari etc etc are getting a bit tired.


So, I am Alonso hater for spotting that he went downwards in last races and asking will it become a spiral to him? A hateful frustrated mob? Strong wording there, mate. Too strong.


I suppose we could also argue then that any driver who has a couple of bad races is going downhill? I don't know what sort of race you watched at Brazil, but I don't think it was the drive of a 'finished' driver which is more or less where your OP is driving at (in a subtle way of course). That Massa may have had the edge? So..? It just means they both drove a fantastic race.

And I agree with cjf1 in that we have seen countless threads bashing Alonso since the season ended, more than during the season itself, and there is no denying that. You can deny (and I would agree) that you are not part of that rabid mob which cjf1 is portraying, but that it IS there is unquestionable, Quark's post in this thread is a fine example.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:14 am 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
He seem to be deeply disturbed,


Only to you, for the rest of the world he looked more than positive after losing the title and he did congratulate Vettel, not only when he was talking to the press but also in person after the official PC, but that's not convinient to your bash fest :nod:


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:22 am 
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It's only downwards if Ferrari can't work out where they screwed up this year.

If they know what and why things didn't work they should be more competitive next year.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:23 am 
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Well something is clearly going on. At the start of the season Massa was simply abysmal compared to Alonso, or put in another way Alonso was simply stellar compared to Massa. But slowly as the season progressed their difference evened out and as the season was complete, Massa was already ahead of Alonso in terms of quali- and race pace. It wasn't just a couple of off races by Alonso - Massa slowly inched his way on par and ahead of Alonso.

So was it a case of Massa for no apparent reason suddenly improving from being one of the worst drivers of the grid (which seemed to be the general consensus at least on this forum) to bettering a driver which in turn is seen as the most complete driver, or a case of Alonso going downwards? Personally I think Alonso is still driving as good as he's ever driven, and Massa is again driving like he did prior to his accident, or at least close to it.
Either way, this recent trend is good for both Massa and the team, and even though Alonso probably had Massa exactly where he wanted, it was ultimately detrimental to his WDC hopes.
So everybody wins.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:33 am 
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Robot wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
He seem to be deeply disturbed,


Only to you, for the rest of the world he looked more than positive after losing the title and he did congratulate Vettel, not only when he was talking to the press but also in person after the official PC, but that's not convinient to your bash fest :nod:
:thumbup:

BTW Felipe is a quick driver, I'm happy because of his final season performance, I expect he and Fernando fight each other for the wins from the begining of the season.

Not a happy thread isn't it?


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 12:39 pm 
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Robot wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
He seem to be deeply disturbed,


Only to you, for the rest of the world he looked more than positive after losing the title

Looking more than positive? How does he looks when he is negative, then?
Image
Plus, did you really follow him, his twits, his hopes of getting the championship by the stewards decision and finally blaming the fans for all the fuss about it? Anyway, that is not much relevant. The point is, he was the slower driver of the two Ferrari's at the end of season. And that's the fact some just can't get it.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 12:59 pm 
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Race2win wrote:
For a fact it was plain to see that Alonso was struggling in the car. I dont think Alonso has lost form or will loose it next year or year after that. Its just the car that he has that didnt have any pace towards the end. You may say Massa was faster than him. But how do you know Massa had the same car. Infact Massa was the 20 sec faster than Alonso, it just goes to show what a difference in setup there was for the 2 cars. Although I wanted Alonso to win this title, but I am not too big a fan of him. Just an unbiased and practical POV


Yay, first one to actually get what was going on. From on-board shots it was very evident Massas car was much easier to drive for him. Rather than different set-ups, it's plausible that Alonsos car with so many new bits became a struggle to understand for him and the team to understand properly.

That or he was just outperformed for 2 races out of 20. Yeah, Alonso is in a crisis....

Still baffled how some of you guys genuinly hate Alonso. Your posts are very very amusing. Anything remotely negative about the guy gets blown way way out of proportion every time :lol:


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:00 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
Robot wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
He seem to be deeply disturbed,


Only to you, for the rest of the world he looked more than positive after losing the title

Looking more than positive? How does he looks when he is negative, then?
Image
Plus, did you really follow him, his twits, his hopes of getting the championship by the stewards decision and finally blaming the fans for all the fuss about it? Anyway, that is not much relevant. The point is, he was the slower driver of the two Ferrari's at the end of season. And that's the fact some just can't get it.


So did you feel that Vettel was going downward before mid season when he won only one race and was behind Webber in standing?


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:14 pm 
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hungdynasty wrote:
So did you feel that Vettel was going downward before mid season when he won only one race and was behind Webber in standing?

You didn't get my point, or didn't read my post. Vettel has no reason to go downward as he got three championships in a row. He didn't loose two championships like Alonso, his teammate was not called to play second fiddle to him during the season. He wasn't beaten by his teammate in most crucial moment. On top of that, Vettel was quite unlucky with some races, and it was not a constant performance drop, like in Alonso's case, that put him behind Webber in the first place.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:15 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
Robot wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
He seem to be deeply disturbed,


Only to you, for the rest of the world he looked more than positive after losing the title

Looking more than positive? How does he looks when he is negative, then?
Image
Plus, did you really follow him, his twits, his hopes of getting the championship by the stewards decision and finally blaming the fans for all the fuss about it? Anyway, that is not much relevant. The point is, he was the slower driver of the two Ferrari's at the end of season. And that's the fact some just can't get it.

I don't remember Fernando blaming nobody, he only quoted his samurai-night table book. Lt. Drebin (or shall I call you Leslie instead?) you're funnier in your movies ;*

And the pic you posted is the face of somebody who has just lost a WDC, should he be laughing? Do I need quote all the times that Ferrari and Fernando congratulated Sebastian? There's even video footage from the last FIA gala...


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:25 pm 
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chican wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Robot wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
He seem to be deeply disturbed,


Only to you, for the rest of the world he looked more than positive after losing the title

Looking more than positive? How does he looks when he is negative, then?
Image
Plus, did you really follow him, his twits, his hopes of getting the championship by the stewards decision and finally blaming the fans for all the fuss about it? Anyway, that is not much relevant. The point is, he was the slower driver of the two Ferrari's at the end of season. And that's the fact some just can't get it.

I don't remember Fernando blaming nobody, he only quoted his samurai-night table book. Lt. Drebin (or shall I call you Leslie instead?) you're funnier in your movies ;*

And the pic you posted is the face of somebody who has just lost a WDC, should he be laughing? Do I need quote all the times that Ferrari and Fernando congratulated Sebastian? There's even video footage from the last FIA gala...

It was my answer to someone who said that he was more than positive. Just look at Vettel in Korea 2010 and that's an example of being positive when a WDC chance is apparently lost. Oh, yeah Vettel is not so popular in this forum, so, let's just disregard that example, shall we?
OK, you are right about congratulating Vettel after the race, so I humbly stand corrected. But you are wrong about the fans part; Alonso said that it were fans who demanded the whole "yellow flag" saga to happen: http://planetf1.com/driver/3213/8304699 ... re-in-2013

"There were a lot of video clips on the Internet and we knew our fans were asking for an explanation and so it was right for Ferrari to turn to the Federation for a clarification," Alonso explained.

Do you really, really believe that it was because of fans?

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:27 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Rocket_Red wrote:
Massa was always good at Brazil, Alonso maybe doesn't know the track as well?

USA too it's America & maybe Massa was feeling more at home with family around him?

I doubt he'll beat Alonso next year though if the car's half decent he could easy be top 4 or 5


Is your post serious?

Finished 30 seconds ahead and outqualified him by 0.5 seconds there last year.


Yes but Massa was slower everywhere in 2011. He is good in Brazil.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:35 pm 
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Keep it civil guys, and don't feed the trolls.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:39 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
It was my answer to someone who said that he was more than positive. Just look at Vettel in Korea 2010 and that's an example of being positive when a WDC chance is apparently lost. Oh, yeah Vettel is not so popular in this forum, so, let's just disregard that example, shall we?
So this is all because do you think Vettel is despised here? Oh man what about Fernando? He's the guy constantly bashed over here!

Let's not have a selective memory, I don't pay too much attention to driver's reaction after failing to win or end a race but... What about Valencia '12? What about Turkey '10? And that's to name a few, on the other hand, you may think Fernando is hateful but... do you think he was angry after being taken out in Belgium? The fact is that he and Romain recently shared helmets and they consider each other friends. That's the typical reaction of somebody who remains so negative and... oh wait!

Lt. Drebin wrote:
OK, you are right about congratulating Vettel after the race, so I humbly stand corrected. But you are wrong about the fans part; Alonso said that it were fans who demanded the whole "yellow flag" saga to happen: http://planetf1.com/driver/3213/8304699 ... re-in-2013

"There were a lot of video clips on the Internet and we knew our fans were asking for an explanation and so it was right for Ferrari to turn to the Federation for a clarification," Alonso explained.

Do you really, really believe that it was because of fans?
I do believe Ferrari statement, it makes sense and I find it pointless trying to make anything else out of it. That was Ferrari official POV, not Fernando's.

Ferrari wrote:
"The request for a clarification from the FIA, regarding Vettel's passing move on Vergne, came about through the need to shed light on the circumstances of the move, which came out on the Internet only a few days after the race," read a Ferrari statement.

"The letter to the FIA was in no way intended to undermine the legality of the race result. We received tens of thousands of queries relating to this matter from all over the world and it was incumbent on us to take the matter further, asking the Federation to look into an incident that could have cast a shadow over the championship in the eyes of all Formula One enthusiasts, not just Ferrari fans.

"Ferrari duly takes note of the reply sent by the FIA this morning and therefore considers the matter now closed."


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:22 pm 
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fonzo still has for sure 2 more seasons where he will be at his peak.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:28 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
Robot wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
He seem to be deeply disturbed,


Only to you, for the rest of the world he looked more than positive after losing the title

Looking more than positive? How does he looks when he is negative, then?
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Plus, did you really follow him, his twits, his hopes of getting the championship by the stewards decision and finally blaming the fans for all the fuss about it? Anyway, that is not much relevant. The point is, he was the slower driver of the two Ferrari's at the end of season. And that's the fact some just can't get it.


Can you post for us Seb's reaction after the 2009 championship?


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:36 pm 
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I'm not a massive fan of either but respect each ones abilities but to say vettel stays positive in defeat is absurd, when things aren't going his way he is just as bad as Alonso, numerous radio messages prove this. Like someone said he looked less than positive several times this year which is really the first time he has had to deal with it for best part of 3 years


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:37 pm 
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You see, you're not allowed to look disappointed after just losing out on winning a World Championship. If you do, you're 'spent' or 'past it'.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:51 pm 
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I won't repeat myself again: I replied to a certain poster who said that he looked more than positive (or something like that). So, take my reply with that in mind. After all, it's not the main topic here. Many of you are quite off topic because we are not speaking here of single reaction, but the chain of events.

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