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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:49 pm 
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Misinformed wrote:
Not only that, but when the track was drying out, Vettel was 1-1.5s slower than majority of the front runners, including Mark, per lap.


Due to reduced power engine mapping and suboptimal aerodynamics because of the damage.
If anything the performance of the car in the dry makes Vettels performance in the wet even more impressive. He was effectively able to overcome a slower car when driver preformance becomes apparent - in the rain.

Webber had 3 good stops.
Vettel had 2 good stops, 1 stop with faulty tires, 1 extremely slow stop where tires weren't ready. Which pretty much boils down to 4.5 stops.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:50 pm 
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diablof1 wrote:
Formula1Fan. wrote:
VDV23 wrote:
I'd say Vettel's Brazil 2012 wasn't great. Especially at T4, ending Senna's and Perez' races. But he's been immense under pressure nevertheless.

and getting out-qualified and out-raced by his teammate, not to mention Toro Rosso's and Schumacher letting him through.

Great under pressure? I dunno if his poor engineers would agree..."DO SOMETHING!!!"


This.


So, if you're "this"-ing, you might as well tell us how you thought Webber outraced Vettel?


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:55 pm 
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Eva09 wrote:
Misinformed wrote:

People keep harping on about the fact that Vettel had two consecutive pit stops at Brazil. If they'd focused on something other than Vettel (hard in a season finale, I know), they'd have seen that his team mate had to do exactly the same thing around the same point of the race. Two pit stops in consecutive laps, for both Vettel and Webber.

Not only that, but discounting the question as to whether it was Sebastian's or Bruno's fault regarding the incident at turn 4, Vettel spun nonetheless. You can cheer him on for coming back from that, but Webber also had a spin, then slide 90 degrees at the final/penultimate corner.. I really don't know if it's the last corner or not.. and he went off at turn 1. The last two probably weren't as impactful as Vettel's spin was, but they happened either way.


Well Webber's were his fault, Vettel's was a racing incident against Senna.


I did not bother pointing out who was at fault because too many people, you in particular, will argue that Senna had no reason to be where he was despite the fact that he was ahead going into turn 4. The point of my argument was not that Vettel, I discounted any theory regarding that simply because I was trying to outline that while Vettel spun, so did Webber. Additionally, whether or not Webber had his nose pointing in the opposite direction like Vettel did does not count for much when I emphasise that while Vettel spun once, Mark spun 3 times (although not to the severity of Vettel's spin) which in general terms, would even it out.

PacificBeach wrote:
At the end of Lap 1 Webber was 11.3 seconds ahead of Vettel. At the end of Lap 6 Vettel reduced it to 3.7 seconds (lapping on average 1.7 seconds a lap faster in rain while overtaking others an with a damaged car).. This is too much of a difference but Vettel is excellent wet weather driver.


If you'll recall, Massa was doing the world's best job of blocking Mark. That however is not to deter from the fact that I agree. Vettel is a superb wet weather racer, but his advantage over Webber at the aforementioned point of the race was exaggerated by the fact that Massa was deliberately impeding Webber.

JerCotter7 wrote:
I somehow doubt Vettel would have spun if there was no contact so I don't see the point of bringing up Webber spinning.

What difference does it make that he was slower when the track was drying up? Did you not see the damage to the car?


The two sentences from your post are examples of how you did not read and properly understand my original post.
I've already explained the reason for me bringing up why I included Mark's spins.

Secondly, the fact that Vettel had damage to his car is the exact reason that I brought up the fact about the drying track. When saying that his damaged car showed no ill effects when the track was wet, I was implying that it proved to hinder him too much when the track was drying.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:03 pm 
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jammin78 wrote:
I think the Brazil 2012 drive is being over-sold as an epic performance by Seb when it really wasn't. He made mistakes in the opening lap, heck even in qualifying, and seemed to try and throw away a WDC. I'm not sure how Bruno's at fault for being on the inside of a corner, with a significant portion of his car alongside Vettel's, which I believe in the rulebook means Seb should've left enough space for both, he didn't. But there was no penalty or investigation for either driver so I'll give Seb the benefit of the doubt and say it was 50/50. Bruno may have been a bit optimistic going in for the first corner, but Seb was being a bit RoGro by going for the apex from half way across the track in the first lap, and shouldn't have been in that position if he'd have qualified better/got a better start. After that it was an OK/good race from him, hardly his best though. Button had a better race to clinch the title in 2009...

If Spa 2012 had been the title finale, Seb's performance would have been A*, because that was the drive of a man fighting for all his worth. Brazil... well he capitalised on his three teammates and Schumi, made a mistake or two on the opening laps, but still had a decent showing. By no means a bad race, but not the mark of a legend, certainly not proof of being good under pressure. He is a good triple champ, as much as it pains me to say, and most definately an all time F1 great purely through numbers if nothing else!

Also, not sure how the safety car was beneficial to Vettel either, I don't think it closed any gaps for him. If anything the rain may have been beneficial as it negated the performance impact on his car from first lap damage, as I think he would have really suffered in the dry.

Just so you know, that is my opinion, you're welcome to disagree :)

i think spot on :thumbup: completely unbiased and fair view, had it not been raining his car wouldn't have made it at most it was a 50/50 but had it not been a first lap incident i think vettel would have got a penalty. Spa though was outstanding.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:59 pm 
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JerCotter7 wrote:
@Formula1Fan. You really need to chill about Seb winning the title. I could see it all along how you resented him but since he won you have just been completely nuts about it.

:nod: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:03 pm 
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PacificBeach wrote:
JerCotter7 wrote:
Misinformed wrote:
People keep harping on about the fact that Vettel had two consecutive pit stops at Brazil. If they'd focused on something other than Vettel (hard in a season finale, I know), they'd have seen that his team mate had to do exactly the same thing around the same point of the race. Two pit stops in consecutive laps, for both Vettel and Webber.


Webber didn't make 2 stops. Not in 2 consecutive laps at least. I'm also guessing neither stop was over 10 seconds long.

Brasil 2012 Pit Stops:
Webber Lap 9
Webber Lap 19
Webber Lap 55

Vettel Lap 10
Vettel Lap 19
Vettel Lap 52
Vettel Lap 54

This is exactly correct. I don't know how on earth someone could see Webber having 2 consecutive pitstops.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:16 pm 
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ferdinand wrote:
PacificBeach wrote:
JerCotter7 wrote:
Misinformed wrote:
People keep harping on about the fact that Vettel had two consecutive pit stops at Brazil. If they'd focused on something other than Vettel (hard in a season finale, I know), they'd have seen that his team mate had to do exactly the same thing around the same point of the race. Two pit stops in consecutive laps, for both Vettel and Webber.


Webber didn't make 2 stops. Not in 2 consecutive laps at least. I'm also guessing neither stop was over 10 seconds long.

Brasil 2012 Pit Stops:
Webber Lap 9
Webber Lap 19
Webber Lap 55

Vettel Lap 10
Vettel Lap 19
Vettel Lap 52
Vettel Lap 54

This is exactly correct. I don't know how on earth someone could see Webber having 2 consecutive pitstops.



Narcoleptic?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:51 pm 
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I don't know whether or not to take offense to that given that I do have a neurological condition. You couldn't possibly of known that however.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:40 pm 
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Misinformed wrote:
I don't know whether or not to take offense to that given that I do have a neurological condition. You couldn't possibly of known that however.

Really sorry to hear that. I don't know your exact condition but I wish you swift and complete recovery.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:32 am 
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PacificBeach wrote:
At the end of Lap 1 Webber was 11.3 seconds ahead of Vettel. At the end of Lap 6 Vettel reduced it to 3.7 seconds (lapping on average 1.7 seconds a lap faster in rain while overtaking others an with a damaged car).. This is too much of a difference but Vettel is excellent wet weather driver.

As I said, Webber beat him all three times in the wet in 2012 (Malaysia out-qualified, finished ahead, Monaco out-qualified, finished ahead, GBR out-qualified, finished ahead, Brazil out-qualified, finished ahead). I believe Alonso also did rather well in the wet this year.

Of course this doesn't rule out Vettel being excellent in the wet, merely not significantly ahead of his competitors.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:23 am 
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Formula1Fan. wrote:
PacificBeach wrote:
At the end of Lap 1 Webber was 11.3 seconds ahead of Vettel. At the end of Lap 6 Vettel reduced it to 3.7 seconds (lapping on average 1.7 seconds a lap faster in rain while overtaking others an with a damaged car).. This is too much of a difference but Vettel is excellent wet weather driver.

As I said, Webber beat him all three times in the wet in 2012 (Malaysia out-qualified, finished ahead, Monaco out-qualified, finished ahead, GBR out-qualified, finished ahead, Brazil out-qualified, finished ahead). I believe Alonso also did rather well in the wet this year.

Of course this doesn't rule out Vettel being excellent in the wet, merely not significantly ahead of his competitors.


Both in Brazil and Malaysia, on race day, Vettel was significantly better in the wet than Webber.

I don't know how you could believe anything else.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:21 am 
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Formula1Fan. wrote:
PacificBeach wrote:
At the end of Lap 1 Webber was 11.3 seconds ahead of Vettel. At the end of Lap 6 Vettel reduced it to 3.7 seconds (lapping on average 1.7 seconds a lap faster in rain while overtaking others an with a damaged car).. This is too much of a difference but Vettel is excellent wet weather driver.

As I said, Webber beat him all three times in the wet in 2012 (Malaysia out-qualified, finished ahead, Monaco out-qualified, finished ahead, GBR out-qualified, finished ahead, Brazil out-qualified, finished ahead). I believe Alonso also did rather well in the wet this year.

Of course this doesn't rule out Vettel being excellent in the wet, merely not significantly ahead of his competitors.


At Malaysia Vettel was faster than Webber in the rain. Webber pitted on lap 14 and Vettel lap 15. After the stops Vettel was 1.5 seconds in front. The gap increased to 10 seconds till the next stops.

Monaco qualifying was dry. In the race if the rain's intensity lasted 3 more laps, Vettel could have even won the race by having enough gap to pit and still come in front of Webber, Rosberg pair.

At Brasil, Vettel went back of of the grid and still he caught Webber in 5 laps in rain. Thanks to an extra stop and another slow one, he ended up behind Webber....


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:26 am 
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Vettel is a very adept wet weather driver. And dry weather driver. And front runner. And mid field driver. He's generally a very good driver, some would say he's Championship material...

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:17 pm 
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mds wrote:
Formula1Fan. wrote:
PacificBeach wrote:
At the end of Lap 1 Webber was 11.3 seconds ahead of Vettel. At the end of Lap 6 Vettel reduced it to 3.7 seconds (lapping on average 1.7 seconds a lap faster in rain while overtaking others an with a damaged car).. This is too much of a difference but Vettel is excellent wet weather driver.

As I said, Webber beat him all three times in the wet in 2012 (Malaysia out-qualified, finished ahead, Monaco out-qualified, finished ahead, GBR out-qualified, finished ahead, Brazil out-qualified, finished ahead). I believe Alonso also did rather well in the wet this year.

Of course this doesn't rule out Vettel being excellent in the wet, merely not significantly ahead of his competitors.


Both in Brazil and Malaysia, on race day, Vettel was significantly better in the wet than Webber.

I don't know how you could believe anything else.


Oh it's easy to believe otherwise. Just convince yourself Vettel is the spawn of satan. And then proceed to ignore any of his good drives while focusing totally on any mistake.


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