planetf1.com

oh my dear lord... so when Vettel's alternator failed a couple of times, he was given better parts? so when Vettel's fuel pump had issues, he was given better parts? I know Webber had some Kers and maybe even alternator issues but this kind of statement appears that SD is just trying to deflect from the unsporting behavior they practiced and the lack of ultimate success under his leadership. If Webber believed he was no.2, he would be outta the team and joining Ferrari because he'd rather help his mate Fernando win than Vettel as clearly seen in over a number of GPs now. And since that "not bad for no.2" incident, Webber has not gone mental again, which suggests to me that he knows he has equal treatment. Sigh...

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It's no surprise that the number one gets the best bits. Would be better if CH was honest about it

If Webber was getting unequal treatment he would say so, he's not one to mince his words with the media. He also wouldn't have signed on with Red Bull for another year.

Also the argument about the number of failures on Webber's car is total nonsense. Parts like KERS components and alternators will be bought in from a supplier whose quality control process will ensure that they are all pretty much identical. Is Domenicali suggesting that Red Bull deliberately buy in some lower quality components with a higher failure rate just to put on Webber's car? What a load of tripe

The Alternator problem was a known one before the season started I believe but Renault didn't sort it and the Red Bull design exasperated the problem I think.

as for the KERS on Marks car Ashley has a very good theory on that. I'll let her explain it herself.

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Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."

"We don't like to speak of the others, but the others like to talk about us,"
Really? It looks to me like you're always the first ones to discredit others' achievements.

Of course if there is only one new part, it would go to the driver with better results and a better chance of winning the title. How else should it be?
I don't think Mark would've stayed in Red Bull if he was so clearly disadvantaged.

Pot, kettle, and black comes to mind.

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So basically , he is formally admitting that Alonso is #1 and Massa is #2 and Alonso gets preferential treatment.

Guys - this is massive ! Dont think any Ferrari TP did that before

They've said many times that Alonso got the new parts quicker than Massa. I remember both at India and Abu Dhabi. They said they same several times when they had MSC. Same thing has happened to Vettel this year. AFAIK RBR has a smaller budget than Ferrari, so i doubt they'd been able to produce parts for both cars when Ferrari couldn't. It would suit RBR to actually admit it.
Nothing new and nothing massive

I thought the whole RBR being a small team was a myth and the actual figures showed they spent more than ferrari in 2011

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_ ... t_id=48178

Not the link I was looking for but a recent one.

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Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."

Teams deliberately test parts on only one car a> to minimise risk and b> to learn the relative performance gain under real race conditions. Its not always about saving a few quids..

Why I think its massive is not because SD is saying that parts are given to only one driver , but because he is insinuating that in doing so, they favor #1 driver. By attacking other teams of favoring their #1 drivers, he is in effect admitting that Ferrari do it systemically.

All this while , we could see that Massa got the rough end of stick on track strategies , yeilding when ahead etc, but could only speculate if Massa got the same car. Now we can be sure that Massa is not getting the same car as Alonso coz their TP has come forward and foolishly spilled the beans.

Good job Ferrari ! Massa - find another seat dude !

Just to be clear the alternator is part of the engine which is supplied by Renault not Red Bull.

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I guess you were the only one thinking that.

You cannot be a critic and then just realise Ferrari gives preferential treatment.... anyway, if you could explain how Ferrari weren't right in their decisions to favour Alonso this year(and the others for that sake), please do so.

I think you missed the point...
.. or rather i wasnt clear about the point myself.

Anyway the point is not that we didnt know that ferrari were favoring Alonso , and it certainly isnt about proving whether they were right or wrong in doing so. It is about SD inadverantly admitting that Massa doesnt get the same parts as Alonso in his quest to paint RBR in the same light.

Why its bigger than it appears is because it is an admission of Ferrari's way of operating as a racing outfit.

Till now , it was all speculation that Massa wasnt getting the same parts. Now its an admitted fact !

And so is the kers.

Vettel was given the priority with the alternators considered "safe" - the 2011 spec ones after the early failures, it was in the press if you looked hard enough. Brundle even mentioned it in Austin - that for the first time in a long time the RBRs were actually running the same alternators. Early on doesn't count as they didn't know they had a problem.

It's been pretty evident the last fews years that yes, Vettel gets the better bits - it's Mark's KERs system that seems to fail constantly after all. This year in the second half of the season Vettel also regularly got to run new parts that Webber didn't.

It's the thing I hate most about RBR, they are supremely hypocritical.

No, they've said that many times during the year. And i'm still interested in how Ferrari was wrong in favouring Alonso.

When Vettel was given priority of the Alternators, Mark was effectively out of the battle. It was only when they ran out of the old spec alternators did Seb get Priority. IIRC that happened around Abu and Mark was 90ish points behind

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Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."

So, since Massa has not been vocal about it either, does that suggest to your that he knows he has equal treatment too? And he fact that Massa has signed again with Ferrari means that he does not believe he is number 2?

Both Webber and Massa have been asked by their teams to support their teammates in the recent past, and I'd say that 1) their respective teams were entitled to ask their drivers to do what the team thought was best, and 2) that results seem to support the idea that their respective teams were right.

Having said that, I fully understad why Massa and Webber supporters dislike this situation, and why people in general would prefer to see a closer battle between teammates.

oh my dear lord its pure simple

he is a test gunnie pig

his contract states hes number 2

hes a crap driver

How do they classify 'good parts' and 'bad parts'? Is it manufactured with such grades? LdM's comments seem desperate and silly, uncalled for really.

Well - I never saw any direct quote saying Alonso is favored with respect to parts etc.

Hell , the first I saw even a headline with parts not being the same was when Massa started beating Alonso. Then they came out saying "oh Massa was running different wing and such like "

And proving that ferrari are wrong to take the approach of favoring one driver from race 1 wasnt my intention - its just how Ferrari want to play in the sport - so good for them. But if you insist - if they had supported Massa from the beginning , probbaly Massa would have challenged for the title , probably got the WCC with both drivers firing OR been able to steal points off Vettel to secure Alonso the title. Its all woulda coulda shoulda

The only negative I can see in giving Massa equal treatment is the risk that Alonso's toys might end up on track and Ferrari would lose more points than they would gain by properly supporting 2 drivers.

Horner: Alonso gets better parts than Massa.

Holy sh*t, the revelations are flying today

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The parts that fail on Mark's car are not development parts - its usually his KERS. Does anyone honestly think a team spending as much as RBR can't build two sets of KERS parts? Come on.

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I almost forgot I had a theory! Thanks for the reminder. Also, Adrian said in Austin that Renault has been suffering the same type of alternator failure since testing in 2005.

Back to my theory. Drivers don't use KERS the same way. Not only can you choose where to deploy KERS energy and how much to use, you can also choose the rate at which the energy is harvested from your rear axle, which in turn affects engine braking. We all know the Pirellis aren't very good at doing two things at once - you want to brake AND turn in? No, sorry, choose one or the other.

I think Mark's KERS problems come from using harvesting settings that are outside the happy place for the components, and I think he uses those harvesting rates because it has the desired effect on braking that suits his style. He is always slow in, fast out, while his teammate is fast in, slow out. A greater harvesting rate and more "abrupt" input to the tires could also explain why Mark seems to use up his tires sooner in that first stint that in teammate, almost all the time. Further, whenever Mark loses KERS his performance seems MORE affected than anyone else who loses it. He gets MUCH slower, which to me indicates he's losing performance not just from the lack of the power boost, but also the help under braking.

He also never seems surprised or makes a big stink about the KERS failures, which makes me think they understand why its happening (if I can come up with this they certainly can) and have decided that the benefits of using it in that manner outweigh the potential failures.

I've also read a lot about the possibility that RBR uses a sort of two stage KERS system - where they store some energy in battery packs like the rest of the teams, and some in supercaps. The difference being that the supercaps can deliver the energy more quickly than the battery packs, but that the battery packs hold the energy for longer and can deliver it more smoothly. What I don't know is how that kind of setup would influence harvesting, but I imagine it could magnify the problem for Mark.

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I've had similar thoughts in the past about it being a matter of how Webber harvests, and expends the power of his KERS that affects the reliability on his car more than on Vettels.

But I would disagree about how you describe their cornering styles. It seems to me that Seb is far from being late on the brakes, and slower on the throttle. While I do think his entry speed is higher than Marks, he is usually hard on the gas much sooner than most any other driver. There's been a couple of races over the last two seasons where someone (usually Hamilton) is on his gear box into a corner, but coming out Seb jumps on the gas and pulls out enough of a gap to hold off a car with better straight line speed down the following straight.

"I get my speed in the corners in the entry, while Mark is better at the exit." - SV, on the topic of RB8 development throughout the season

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Agreed, he seems to give the car more throttle out of the corner but shifts up into the next gear sooner than most of the drivers i've seen over the season.

lol

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why is that funny?

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I've said it before here but I think Seb likes a very aggressive (open) diff setting for corner entry, which gets the car rotating nice and early, but without the extra slug of downforce from an EBD or Coanda exhaust it's a little too twitchy.

Webber on the other hand probably goes a little more conservative (more locking) so his car is more stable but ultimately he can't extract the benefit of the extra downforce to the extent of Vettel.

I like your KERS theory, could definitely hold water and perhaps his harvesting setting is helping him do something similar to what Vettel does with the diff setting? I'm getting rather speculative now and a little off topic but great discussion!

Webber's car fails all the time, it's not just KERS/DRS but all sorts of issues and the opportunity costs for Webber are huge. I can provide a list if anyone's interested.

Domenicali wouldn't be saying this if other teams were as honest and up-front about favoritism as Ferrari.

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Massa need not be vocal, its written all over his face!
Massa has openly supported Alonso while Webber publicy scoffed at the idea of supporting his teammate even towards the last part of the season (even he would have even asked by the team).
That's the difference between driving for Ferrari & Red Bull & I guess that's one of the reasons why Webber has chosen to stay with RBR for 2013.
You can imagine what would have happen to Webber if he behaves that way at Ferrari with Alonso as his teammate.

that is stupid.... Vettel's car breaks down as much as Webbers

yes I know, but he didn't say any specific parts and I was trying to say that parts are parts, they can't possibly know which ones work like Kryptonite and which ones work like magic. He was trying to justify his team's strategies and saying others do that too but using the parts analogy was wrong. He could have said they had to ask Webber to pit in order for Seb to gain that place. But even then, Webber was leading at the beginning of the season and this is testimony that they do have equal treatment until such time that someone is no longer in contention and then they back the contender. This is normal...and I dun think RBR has been shy about saying such things...

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to be fair, Massa was under-performing the first half of the season while Alonso was leading, so it was only right to support Alonso. I don't disagree with Ferrari's strategy there...just very unsporting for the Austin GP incident is all... I also disagree that Luca thinks that other teams also do it like that but quietly. I dun think this is true. A real indication is that this year, Webber was re-signed very early in the season, because he was leading. The team knew he could be whisked away to Ferrari if he won the WDC. They didn't want to risk that, so they knew he had a real shot of the WDC. This tells me they do give equal treatment. And it was afterwards that Webber lost his lead etc. So it had nothing to do with being clear no.1 or 2 and it is only in effect after one is out of contention, which is also the most logical thing to do. I feel that Luca has no right to talk about other teams that way.

Anyway, I just think it would have been more correct for Massa to give way to Alonso on track, but not give up 5 positions...

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