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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:11 pm 
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When Heikki made the step up to McLaren I didn't quite expect it to end the way it did. Do you think that Sergio will fare any better?

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:18 pm 
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I think he will. Sergio needs someone like McLaren and Jenson Button to show him the ropes. Jenson and Sergio will gel and Sergio will become a very good driver undr McLaren.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:45 pm 
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I think Perez will do better than Kovalainen. So far he hasn't shown much more than Kovalainen had shown at Renault but overall I think Perez has more potential. Kovalainen's strength was quali and Perez's strength is the race. But IMO one lap pace is easier to improve than race pace. Some drivers just don't have that relentless quality to keep up a very high intensity during an entire race and Kovalainen for me was one of those drivers. I admit though that I draw a lot from his years at McLaren when judging him which was a while back. His performances at Caterham have been hard to judge. For Perez, improving in quali is much more of a straight forward technical challenge. But even if he fails to make significant improvements in quali I still think he has enough to do better than Kovalainen.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:53 pm 
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Perez has shown more in Sauber than Kovailenen did in Renault. So I believe Perez will be much more successful in McLaren...


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:55 pm 
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I think it's mostly down to how well Perez integrates into the team. Heikki didn't.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:49 pm 
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We'll just have to wait and see, I guess.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:19 pm 
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Only 61 days left and we'l find out!

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:33 pm 
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dabi wrote:
Only 61 days left and we'l find out!


Only 61 days? Does he not have a season or the same amount of races as Kov had at McLaren to settle this debate?

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:39 pm 
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SilverstoneRegular wrote:
dabi wrote:
Only 61 days left and we'l find out!


Only 61 days? Does he not have a season or the same amount of races as Kov had at McLaren to settle this debate?


Kovalainen was god awful at McLaren. The reason McLaren persisted with him beyond '08 was that they were still recovering from what happened with Alonso the year before and didn't want any teammate related problems. They also won the WDC that year with Hamilton so they could certainly afford to overlook a weak link. Rest assured Perez won't get 2 seasons if he turns out to be that bad. He'd have to start delivering quickly to hold on to his seat in 2014.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:40 pm 
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Yes. I think Perez will assert himself across the team better than Kovi did. It was like Kovi gave up against Hamilton before he'd even begun.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:41 pm 
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He might and probably should do well, but he could also be even worse than Heikki at Mclaren, only time will tell.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:50 pm 
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Imo Kovalainen did well at McLaren in 2008; his times were not that far off Hamilton's; in early 2009 Heikki's times in the slow MP4/24-1 were actually good. Once they got the revised 24-2 though Lewis was much faster.

Having said this I think Perez will do better: he is a far more forceful and decisive. Also unlike Heikki, Perez will not be up against young charger, Hamilton, one of the most competitive drivers of his era. JB should be an excellent team-mate, one to co-operate with and learn a lot from.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:02 pm 
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I think he'll fail miserably sadly. I don't rate him at all, his races at Malaysia and Italy were great but he was too inconsistent throughout the season.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:18 pm 
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I think he will do better. He is against Jenson rather than Lewis who is slightly slower and I think he has that little bit of spark that Hiekki lacked. I would not be surprised if Perez's 2013 season was similar to Montoyas 01 or Raikkonens 02


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:32 pm 
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I think so. Both Button and Perez seem to have a similar style. Both have a calm approach to driving, which some people seem to misconceive as being slow - its not - its being sensible and playing the long game.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:46 pm 
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Volantary wrote:
I think he'll fail miserably sadly. I don't rate him at all, his races at Malaysia and Italy were great but he was too inconsistent throughout the season.

If you don't rate Perez then I hate to imagine how you rate your boy Koba...

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:55 pm 
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Heikki didn't have too bad a debut at McLaren to be fair, without the safety car he would've been on the podium at least.

Just one of those things though eh, it did come out and it didn't work out.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:31 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
Volantary wrote:
I think he'll fail miserably sadly. I don't rate him at all, his races at Malaysia and Italy were great but he was too inconsistent throughout the season.

If you don't rate Perez then I hate to imagine how you rate your boy Koba...


I think Sauber should have kept them both to be honest. Perez is now way above his station while Kobayashi is out of F1 altogether. If they'd have both stayed at Sauber for a year and continued to match each other while scoring podiums it would have done a lot of good for them in the long run. Sauber had their best year ever as an independent team, scoring 41 points in old money. In 2001 which was their best season before this year they scored 21.

Now I can see Kamui being completely forgotten about and Perez crashing and burning at Mclaren. I think given a fast car Kobayashi would have been great, even if he qualified badly or had a 1st lap accident he would just use his skill and car advantage to overtake everyone. I rate that more than Perez's trick which is to keep tyres in good nick; this works for him on occasion but the rest of the time he ends up being average at best. I really can't remember any good overtaking moves from him.

What it comes down to is Perez + Kobayashi = Button. Button has incredible overtaking skills and very good tyre management. If I were to have one of those skills, I'd rather be able to overtake than manage tyres because overtaking would bail me out of trouble far more than sitting there hoping others have managed their tyres badly. Button has both, that's why he's a top driver. Hamilton is incredibly skilled in overtaking too, which more often than not bails him out of some average tyre management situations (along with his raw pace).

So yeah, Sauber should have kept them both, their complementing skill sets netted Sauber a good result in the race more often than not. Perez is now going to crash and burn Kovalainen style and Kobayashi will be forgotten about, Sauber will be worse off for it unless Gutierrez turns out to be something very special.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:34 am 
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Volantary wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
Volantary wrote:
I think he'll fail miserably sadly. I don't rate him at all, his races at Malaysia and Italy were great but he was too inconsistent throughout the season.

If you don't rate Perez then I hate to imagine how you rate your boy Koba...


I think Sauber should have kept them both to be honest. Perez is now way above his station while Kobayashi is out of F1 altogether. If they'd have both stayed at Sauber for a year and continued to match each other while scoring podiums it would have done a lot of good for them in the long run. Sauber had their best year ever as an independent team, scoring 41 points in old money. In 2001 which was their best season before this year they scored 21.

Now I can see Kamui being completely forgotten about and Perez crashing and burning at Mclaren. I think given a fast car Kobayashi would have been great, even if he qualified badly or had a 1st lap accident he would just use his skill and car advantage to overtake everyone. I rate that more than Perez's trick which is to keep tyres in good nick; this works for him on occasion but the rest of the time he ends up being average at best. I really can't remember any good overtaking moves from him.

What it comes down to is Perez + Kobayashi = Button. Button has incredible overtaking skills and very good tyre management. If I were to have one of those skills, I'd rather be able to overtake than manage tyres because overtaking would bail me out of trouble far more than sitting there hoping others have managed their tyres badly. Button has both, that's why he's a top driver. Hamilton is incredibly skilled in overtaking too, which more often than not bails him out of some average tyre management situations (along with his raw pace).

So yeah, Sauber should have kept them both, their complementing skill sets netted Sauber a good result in the race more often than not. Perez is now going to crash and burn Kovalainen style and Kobayashi will be forgotten about, Sauber will be worse off for it unless Gutierrez turns out to be something very special.

Perez 3 podiums, Kobayashi 1. Perez got more points and retired from more races. Perez was ahead in quali 11-9. So Perez beat Koba in every area. That's why one got a top seat and one if without a drive. If you lose against your team mate in F1 these days hen it can mean game over, especially in a midfield team. Perez is younger, he showed he has something to give last season whereas Kobayashi looked worse than he did in 2011. That is never going to end well for the losing driver.

Overtaking isn't everything these days, especially with the tyres the way they are. Heck Vettel is still a driver people accuse of being unabe to overtake and he has three WDCs.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:27 am 
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Many ways of looking at things. Both have talent and the one thing is for sure the is not a big enough difference for one to get arguably the best seat in F1 and the other not get a seat at all.

Perez scored points in 6 races from 14 finishes.
KK scored points in 9 races from 16 finishes.

Perez did score 3 podiums, but only finished in the top 8 one other time.
KK scored one podium, totalling 5 top 6 finishes.

Perez was comfortably beaten in 1/3 of the races last year by a guy who can not get a seat in F1. That is not good reading.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:32 am 
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lamo wrote:
Many ways of looking at things. Both have talent and the one thing is for sure the is not a big enough difference for one to get arguably the best seat in F1 and the other not get a seat at all.

Perez scored points in 6 races from 14 finishes.
KK scored points in 9 races from 16 finishes.

Perez did score 3 podiums, but only finished in the top 8 one other time.
KK scored one podium, totalling 5 top 6 finishes.

Perez was comfortably beaten in 1/3 of the races last year by a guy who can not get a seat in F1. That is not good reading.


This.

I think the podiums got in the way of consistency that Koboyashi had, but lets not get off topic.

Perez will get along fine with Mclaren becuase he's extremely talented and I think he will have growing pains in Mclaren, but he will be fine in the end. I'm not sure what happened to Kova, but all I have to say between 07 to 09, it is different going against Fisichella then moving onto a young and hard charging Lewis Hamilton. Jenson is going to be a great test, but JB will have his off days and so will Perez. This will be a good team to watch, but at the same token expect to be fustrated some weekends by them for Mclaren fans. (I mean true Mclaren fans)

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:03 am 
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OutKast wrote:
lamo wrote:
Many ways of looking at things. Both have talent and the one thing is for sure the is not a big enough difference for one to get arguably the best seat in F1 and the other not get a seat at all.

Perez scored points in 6 races from 14 finishes.
KK scored points in 9 races from 16 finishes.

Perez did score 3 podiums, but only finished in the top 8 one other time.
KK scored one podium, totalling 5 top 6 finishes.

Perez was comfortably beaten in 1/3 of the races last year by a guy who can not get a seat in F1. That is not good reading.


This.

I think the podiums got in the way of consistency that Koboyashi had, but lets not get off topic.

Perez will get along fine with Mclaren becuase he's extremely talented and I think he will have growing pains in Mclaren, but he will be fine in the end. I'm not sure what happened to Kova, but all I have to say between 07 to 09, it is different going against Fisichella then moving onto a young and hard charging Lewis Hamilton. Jenson is going to be a great test, but JB will have his off days and so will Perez. This will be a good team to watch, but at the same token expect to be fustrated some weekends by them for Mclaren fans. (I mean true Mclaren fans)

IMO Kovi never exactly impressed at Renault in 07 either. One podium, a lot of under performance and he was hanging onto a very under performing Fisichella's coat tails most of the time. I dunno what he did to deserve the McLaren seat other than prove he'd never get near Hamilton from the off. At the time I was pretty baffled as to why McLaren didn't get Heidfeld in for 08. He was quick, steady and would probably have been a happy No2 for Hamilton but I reckon could have fought for more than one lucky win.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:34 am 
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Checo will do better by Leaps and Bounds! Just you watch, Sunshine.

Meanwhile, I would probably rather hang with Heikki - he is hilarious, nice dude, down to earth - but Checo is a fav based on his skill which I believe will see him as the next young gun on the block.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:13 am 
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I think yes as he will not be up against Hamilton. I think its a possibility that Heikki would still have been around for longer than he did had he had a team mate like button, no offence to button, Since Heikki had Hamilton who is frankly among the fastest drivers in the world he was outperformed on most occasions. I'm quite interested to see how this pans out ^_^


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:31 am 
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Maky wrote:
I think yes as he will not be up against Hamilton. I think its a possibility that Heikki would still have been around for longer than he did had he had a team mate like button, no offence to button, Since Heikki had Hamilton who is frankly among the fastest drivers in the world he was outperformed on most occasions. I'm quite interested to see how this pans out ^_^


Though Button has proven he's able to perform just as well as Hamilton. Would Kovalainen have been closer to Button? Probably. But the points difference would still have been too much to warrant a new contract.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:59 am 
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Inevitably, he will be evaluated as superior to Heikki unless he is truly dreadful if only because of Heikki's 2009 season at McLaren which was poor indeed.

Heikki's 2008 season on the other hand, was plagued with bad luck in the first half, such as the wheel nut problem when leading in Spain and his engine stalling from 4th on the grid at Monaco in 2008 on the formation lap, though whether he was entirely blameless there I know can't be for sure. It wasn't as good as Hamilton's of course, but it was respectable. He just didn't get to grips with the (lack) of grip that the 2009 car had relative to the 2008 car and a "respectable" 2008 wasn't enough to save him, McLaren needs the very good to the spectacular.

After all that is said and done though, I don't think Perez is there as a pay driver, which still ranks, among the consistent threads on here, as one of the most preposterous given McLaren's historic attitudes to hiring drivers and their current budget. He is there on merit and I expect him to win a couple of races if the car is at the level of the past few seasons. Championship? Not unless the car is markedly the best in the field, because I still think Vettel, Hamilton and Alonso are a class above him at the moment, but maybe in a few years, it's early days. Button may pip him to the post in that scenario too.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:03 pm 
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Toby. wrote:
Maky wrote:
I think yes as he will not be up against Hamilton. I think its a possibility that Heikki would still have been around for longer than he did had he had a team mate like button, no offence to button, Since Heikki had Hamilton who is frankly among the fastest drivers in the world he was outperformed on most occasions. I'm quite interested to see how this pans out ^_^


Though Button has proven he's able to perform just as well as Hamilton. Would Kovalainen have been closer to Button? Probably. But the points difference would still have been too much to warrant a new contract.


As a Button fan, I just want to point out that in three years of being team-mates, Jenson outscored Hamilton in total points.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:36 pm 
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I think he will do better in the races although Heikki is perhaps a better qualifier

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:37 pm 
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rjca92 wrote:
Toby. wrote:
Maky wrote:
I think yes as he will not be up against Hamilton. I think its a possibility that Heikki would still have been around for longer than he did had he had a team mate like button, no offence to button, Since Heikki had Hamilton who is frankly among the fastest drivers in the world he was outperformed on most occasions. I'm quite interested to see how this pans out ^_^


Though Button has proven he's able to perform just as well as Hamilton. Would Kovalainen have been closer to Button? Probably. But the points difference would still have been too much to warrant a new contract.


As a Button fan, I just want to point out that in three years of being team-mates, Jenson outscored Hamilton in total points.


As a Hamilton fan, I just want to point out in three years, Lewis beat Jensen 2 out 3 times over the course of the season.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:38 pm 
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rjca92 wrote:
Toby. wrote:
Maky wrote:
I think yes as he will not be up against Hamilton. I think its a possibility that Heikki would still have been around for longer than he did had he had a team mate like button, no offence to button, Since Heikki had Hamilton who is frankly among the fastest drivers in the world he was outperformed on most occasions. I'm quite interested to see how this pans out ^_^


Though Button has proven he's able to perform just as well as Hamilton. Would Kovalainen have been closer to Button? Probably. But the points difference would still have been too much to warrant a new contract.


As a Button fan, I just want to point out that in three years of being team-mates, Jenson outscored Hamilton in total points.

Semantics really given what transpired in 2012, without doubt Button beat Hamilton fair and square in 2011 though

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:46 pm 
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rjca92 wrote:
Toby. wrote:
Maky wrote:
I think yes as he will not be up against Hamilton. I think its a possibility that Heikki would still have been around for longer than he did had he had a team mate like button, no offence to button, Since Heikki had Hamilton who is frankly among the fastest drivers in the world he was outperformed on most occasions. I'm quite interested to see how this pans out ^_^


Though Button has proven he's able to perform just as well as Hamilton. Would Kovalainen have been closer to Button? Probably. But the points difference would still have been too much to warrant a new contract.


As a Button fan, I just want to point out that in three years of being team-mates, Jenson outscored Hamilton in total points.

Semantics really given what transpired in 2012, without doubt Button beat Hamilton fair and square in 2011 though

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:19 pm 
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The problems is that if checo starts to perform well, Button would try to sabotage him and demoralise him with mind games. I expect a lot of fireworks between the two.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:25 pm 
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El_Chuzalongo wrote:
The problems is that if checo starts to perform well, Button would try to sabotage him and demoralise him with mind games. I expect a lot of fireworks between the two.



Yes he will break out the Anti-Roll bar hacksaw again :uhoh: :uhoh:

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:26 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
El_Chuzalongo wrote:
The problems is that if checo starts to perform well, Button would try to sabotage him and demoralise him with mind games. I expect a lot of fireworks between the two.



Yes he will break out the Anti-Roll bar hacksaw again :uhoh: :uhoh:


Not that old chestnut

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:32 pm 
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Chestnuts in the air box. Now that is a good one Siverstone ;)

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:45 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
El_Chuzalongo wrote:
The problems is that if checo starts to perform well, Button would try to sabotage him and demoralise him with mind games. I expect a lot of fireworks between the two.



Yes he will break out the Anti-Roll bar hacksaw again :uhoh: :uhoh:


Sabotage as in acting like a nice guy with the public but behind doors plot with papi Whitmarsh how to kick him out of the team.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:47 pm 
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El_Chuzalongo wrote:
Johnston wrote:
El_Chuzalongo wrote:
The problems is that if checo starts to perform well, Button would try to sabotage him and demoralise him with mind games. I expect a lot of fireworks between the two.



Yes he will break out the Anti-Roll bar hacksaw again :uhoh: :uhoh:


Sabotage as in acting like a nice guy with the public but behind doors plot with papi Whitmarsh how to kick him out of the team.



Do you believe in the hollow earth too? Maybe Chemtrails?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:56 pm 
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El_Chuzalongo wrote:
The problems is that if checo starts to perform well, Button would try to sabotage him and demoralise him with mind games. I expect a lot of fireworks between the two.


Button already started it by boasting about leadership at McLaren or saying if he was driving his McLaren in the same way as Perez in Sauber, he would shred tyres to pieces. That's quite rich coming from someone who was nowhere near his teammate in 5 races, because he couldn't set-up his car properly around tyres (while Perez was highly praised by Paul Hembery and Sauber's manager Beat Zehnder, who both said he has excellent understanding of Pirellis) and someone who has nickname No Grip.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:07 pm 
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Armchair Expert wrote:
El_Chuzalongo wrote:
The problems is that if checo starts to perform well, Button would try to sabotage him and demoralise him with mind games. I expect a lot of fireworks between the two.


Button already started it by boasting about leadership at McLaren or saying if he was driving his McLaren in the same way as Perez in Sauber, he would shred tyres to pieces. That's quite rich coming from someone who was nowhere near his teammate in 5 races, because he couldn't set-up his car properly around tyres (while Perez was highly praised by Paul Hembery and Sauber's manager Beat Zehnder, who both said he has excellent understanding of Pirellis) and someone who has nickname No Grip.



Putting the blame squarely at Buttons feet for the set up shows a distinct lack of understanding of what goes on.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:12 pm 
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Armchair Expert wrote:
El_Chuzalongo wrote:
The problems is that if checo starts to perform well, Button would try to sabotage him and demoralise him with mind games. I expect a lot of fireworks between the two.


Button already started it by boasting about leadership at McLaren or saying if he was driving his McLaren in the same way as Perez in Sauber, he would shred tyres to pieces. That's quite rich coming from someone who was nowhere near his teammate in 5 races, because he couldn't set-up his car properly around tyres (while Perez was highly praised by Paul Hembery and Sauber's manager Beat Zehnder, who both said he has excellent understanding of Pirellis) and someone who has nickname No Grip.

Did Button really say that and when was it said?

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