planetf1.com

I agree with both of you, there is nothing wrong in liking a beautiful car and of course the fastest possible solution is the most beautiful in a racing sense. Both together are classics.

Obviously somebody among the rule makers and teams value aesthetics, hence the introduction of the modesty plate.

Would you want the driver enclosed if it made the car go a second a lap quicker?
Would you want the wheels enclosed if it made the car go a second a lap quicker? For me both a certain no.

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http://www.racefan.co.uk

I feel a bit sorry for Lewis, this car looks like it will be such a beast. Mclaren are also supremely confident, saying that it will be much better than the MP4-27 at the end of last season. Perez and Jenson are both consistent drivers, hopefully they will get some good wins and maybe constructors or driver's championship.

Mclaren have not had a cc for many years now, it would be nice to see them get one on their anniversary.

And yet Tim Goss had this to say:

As well as pursuing a different path from Lotus on the passive double DRS, McLaren has elected to race with a 'vanity panel' covering a stepped nose on its 2013 car.

Goss was adamant that smoothing the airflow in that area of the car was more of an advantage than the disadvantage of extra weight on the car, which is why Lotus has opted not to race it.

"Aerodynamically you would not put a step on the top surface of the nose through choice, it is an artifact of the regulations," said Goss. "So we don't...

"It is a lightweight structural cover. There is no structural significance at all, so it weighs very little.

"I think James [Allison, Lotus technical director] left it quite open as to whether they would do something.

"If we look aerodynamically at the step on the nose then, to be honest, it is not very significant but you will pull a few minor losses off it. You would not do it [have a stepped nose] out of choice, so we don't."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/105347

Car launch confidence is completely artificial. They may believe they have a really strong car - but finishing order is relative to what everyone else has built, and they don't know what that is yet. No reason for Lewis to feel anything just yet.

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Incorrect, the upper has everything to do with the lower part. Because all Formula One car designers want as much flow under the nose, the top of the nose is so high. Understand this, that the shape of the top of the nose is determined by what is happening under the nose. Additionally, in 2012 McLaren attempted to put their nose a low as possible, they had to revise it mid-season with that weird kink and raise it a bit, and the 2013 car is a statement that you can wish to have a low nose, but you have to have it as high as possible.

Wanting and having are two different things.

Just because the "Current Trend" is running a very high nose for the benefits of air flow, it's only a matter of time before someone else discovers the next best thing and the step-nose approach, like most everything before it, will be a thing of the past. Hopefully a return to something that is as beautiful as it is fast. I am a designer and production specialist and it is my job to make things as attractive to the eye as possible while keeping it fully functional. In my experience, there is almost always a way to find a good balance. This on the other hand was a copout and the engineers could have done a much better job than to simply put a step in the nose. The FIA did what they are supposed to do in creating new regulations in the favor of safety and it is up to the engineers and aerodynamicists to figure out a way to make the most efficient designs but that doesn't have to come at the expense of aesthetics.

I'm a stickler for design and see things in products that irk me to no end and I can never bring myself to look past them. For instance the 2008 Honda Civics…

For whatever reason Honda chose to keep the mirrors on their 2-Door model where they have been for the last 30 years on all their civics, right at the front corner of the window panel which is clean, neat and just looks all kinds of right. On the 4-door model however, they slapped the damn things onto the doors themselves and they sit right dead smack on the longitudinal line of the car and ruin it's flow entirely. Upon seeing this I immediately went to the service manage and asked if he could bring out a replacement mirror for the 2-Door model and he did. I went over to the 4-door model and placed the mirror in the window panel in the damn thing fit perfectly. Since I have kids I had to get 4-door car but because of the mirrors, for the first time ever I went with something that wasn't a honda. Now they've since revised the model and both models have the mirrors on the doors. It might be OCD to some but for me that is a total deal breaker that I cannot get over.

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Second place is the first loser!

He's talking about the actual step, not the high nose. They had the option of keeping the low nose like last year, and decided the high nose has more benefits for them. They have chosen not to manipulate the step itself, and use the panel to minimize losses, just as some teams chose to manipulate the step last year and some chose to just make it as smooth as possible. If they could, they would make the nose as high as the chassis and eliminate the step while still reaping the benefits of the air flow underneath.

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But Lewis does

He will have an idea how the Macca was heading from the Sim before he signed and now he will have seen the Merc and drove their sim.

Whether his mood is oh shit or happy days we can only guess. But he is certainly in a better place to judge than us.

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Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."

Also, the "trend" of high noses is a product of the rest of the aero regulations and tires. If and when the tires, exhaust rules, diffuser, front and rear wing, brake duct, and floor regulations all change, then a different solution might be better. Its not a social thing - its not like xyz celebrity is wearing skinny jeans so I'm going to wear skinny jeans - its the regulations dictating the available solutions and shapes.

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I disagree. The 2013 car shows that you can have a raised nose and still keep it attractive and it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with what's going on underneath. This vanity plate could have been developed in ALL of last years cars on the upper end whilst not changing a thing underneath. So long as structurally the interior adheres to the rules, nothing prevents them from making it slick.

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Second place is the first loser!

Not really. Look at the RB8. A month before the season the car was headed in a completely different direction than it eventually went. If Mark or Seb had made a team change, their impression of the RBR car would be completely different from what actually turned up to race.

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Thats because what Newey had planned was illegal. Macca don't tend to take those risks.

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Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."

The panel was not legal last year. You couldn't have any part of the car above the max height for the nose above the nose. As with the difference we see in thinking from Lotus and McLaren, whether the shape of the actual step is worth covering up will depend on the team and the rest of the car. Putting more weight on top is less of a hit to the McLaren because the pullrod suspension lowers much of the weight in the front compared to the pushrod setup on the Lotus. You must look at what is underneath, not just the shape.

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Nope. As the saying goes, there are many ways to skin a cat. The fact is that someone was thinking outside the box and discovered something that improved aero and the rest of the sheep followed. However, the FIA saw the trend exaggerating things to a point where safety was being compromised and installed limitations for all to abide by. Coanda for example was another way of improving aero that was discovered by Sauber and everyone followed suit. there is absolutely NOTHING that says a higher nose "IS" the best way in accordance to the current regs and I'd bet there are numerous ways to achieve the same effect or better utilizing a lower slung nose, but it takes some experimentation and luck. Last year the McLaren was good from the opening round and it had the lowest nose of the field. They however experimented with a slightly raised nose and felt that it improved performance and stuck with it, but I didn't notice much of a difference. In Lewis' hands the car was fast all year long and actually looked more dominant in its A spec IMHO. Perhaps that's due to others catching up in the development race as the year wore on, but the car was really good either way which is telling that the raised nose is not the absolute best solution.

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Second place is the first loser!

It was legal until the FIA decided it wasnt, same as everything else they do! lol

Bottom line is tho that the design will change a lot between what Lewis last saw and what will race, or even what we see today and what will race. He also isn't looking at today's photos and gaining some in depth understanding of how the McLaren will work. The designers at Merc will be looking at it that way, but does Lewis have their understanding of aero and design? Probably not. If Lewis is smart, he and everyone else, will know there's no point in crazy analysis of a launch car, and certainly no point in being discouraged by it. Especially if Ross is hiding some quadruple DRS reverse double blown triple floating diffuser.

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I think that the main idea behind the high nose is to give the neutral zone in the middle of the wing an effective angle of attack so it will create downforce. This would also give a lower pressure on the underside on the wing and thus encourage more air under the wing. As most have said, it is more important to have this and pay the price of working the flow over step. The modesty panel gives the best of both.

Are YOU joking? completely different?!

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The low nose worked for McLaren because the rest of the car was designed for it. When they tested the higher nose they may have just decided it wouldnt work with the other half of the car, and changing that significantly might be too risky mid season.

One reason they might have chosen to go the route of the high nose this year is that they find it provides greater opportunity for further development throughout the season, especially at the back of the car. Or they just really wanted to explore the pull rod perhaps for tire performance, and the high nose is more appropriate with that layout.

Why do YOU think they've chosen the high nose this year? Peer pressure? If the low nose was everything they needed it to be last year, why didn't they stick with it?

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Those vanity panels will weigh next to nothing, there only structural requirement would be to not flex in the wind. Which is very simple when its curved and attached on three sides. Unless flex was advantageous of course?

Probably no more than 100-150 grams. Which is about how much weight a driver loses in sweat in just 3 laps at Malaysia. I think they will all have them come the first race.

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http://www.racefan.co.uk

that OR probably just a higher nose

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Yeah, it is. Pullrod suspension, raised sections outboard on the floor, driveshafts, high nose, no turning vanes, new sidepods, new barge boards, new style brake ducts. The wings and exhaust outlets are really only the old spec, and the exhaust area looks like two dummy panels ready to pull out and be replaced by their real exhaust solution.

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Mclaren switched to a higher nose after 5 races?

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http://www.racefan.co.uk

of course they dont, they use glue

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But that's just it. The modesty panel is for all intents and purposes a part of the overall structure as this 2013 McLaren shows. It's not just a mere bolt-on solution they cam up with. Knowing McLaren they tested the aero both with and without the panel and if they went in this direction it's for a reason. In a business where every last hundredth counts, the step in the nose could be the difference in what deems a car as too slow.

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Second place is the first loser!

No step, no high nose relative to the others.

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He will have driven the car in the sim which has had 4 months more development. Remember his comments to Sergio about how good it was?

He'll know it's had 4 more months of development and it's not likely to have went backwards in the mean time and will know if they have made major changes. If they have made big changes he will know they won't have been done to make it look nicer but to make it quicker than it was in the Sim back in September.

He can make a direct comparison to where Merc are now and where Macca were. What Merc have and where Macca have went.

That might be good news for him or it might be bad only he knows.

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Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."

Newey: did somebody say inventive and loopholes?

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The modestly panel is NOT structural. 3.7.9 "With the exception of an optional, single piece, non-structural fairing of prescribed laminate (whose precise lay-up may be found in the Appendix to the regulations) which may not be more than 625mm above the reference plane at any point, no bodywork situated more than
1950mm forward of rear face of the cockpit entry template may be more than 550mm above the reference plane."

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I'm not sure it has Red Bull style exhaust. It has their own solution from last year. Lotus copied Red Bull.

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Any old sap can pull teeth from a dead crocodile.
It takes a man to pull teeth from a live one.

Where McLaren were and where Merc are now have nothing to do with this launch car though. So again, seeing the car today shouldn't have any effect on his outlook, not from a technical standpoint.

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He'll see if they have made any major changes in the last 4 months. Which as I have said won't have been done to make it look pretty.

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Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."

Yeah my mistake. There was someone talking about that the exhausts look very temporary and the reckoned they might be launch only and they are going red bull.

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Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."

2012 vs 2013 graphical comparison:
http://www.marca.com/2013/01/31/multime ... 43880.html

Why do I get they feeling that if you showed Ashley a piece of black card she would argue that it was white...

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1994 1995 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004

Dunno, but your feeling is wrong (again)

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she's female

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Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."

Somehow I don't think I am this time. I'm in no mood to steal your know it all status on the forum, don't worry.

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1994 1995 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004

Oh, look at that. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/105351




And don't worry Laura, no one would accuse you of being a know it all

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I only read BBC analysis and yes the car is going to change anyway.

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Any old sap can pull teeth from a dead crocodile.
It takes a man to pull teeth from a live one.