planetf1.com

It is currently Sat Nov 01, 2014 1:51 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:07 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2003 10:09 pm
Posts: 3935
I agree with both of you, there is nothing wrong in liking a beautiful car and of course the fastest possible solution is the most beautiful in a racing sense. Both together are classics.

Obviously somebody among the rule makers and teams value aesthetics, hence the introduction of the modesty plate.

Would you want the driver enclosed if it made the car go a second a lap quicker?
Would you want the wheels enclosed if it made the car go a second a lap quicker? For me both a certain no.

_________________
http://www.racefan.co.uk


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:18 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2012 3:33 pm
Posts: 741
I feel a bit sorry for Lewis, this car looks like it will be such a beast. Mclaren are also supremely confident, saying that it will be much better than the MP4-27 at the end of last season. Perez and Jenson are both consistent drivers, hopefully they will get some good wins and maybe constructors or driver's championship.

Mclaren have not had a cc for many years now, it would be nice to see them get one on their anniversary.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:27 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:58 pm
Posts: 614
Location: London
ashley313 wrote:
If you understood how the high noses work, you wouldn't say any of those things. Low noses create a completely different path and mass of air at different velocity than high noses, so no, they can't do everything the same. The step in the nose isn't necessarily a huge hit to the flow over it. By manipulating the shape of the leading end of the chassis, you can control how the air stays attached to its flat top all the way to the cockpit, and making it a shorter distance helps too. The RB8 for example had that letter box slot, which gave the leading edge of the top of the step a curvature capable of helping to keep the air attached to the chassis. If any negatives of the step were not outweighed by the benefits, everyone would run low noses. Do you think they're all just purposely making the cars "ugly"? Why would they do that?

I enjoy watching how a team can manipulate its machinery to make it perform better for its drivers. I really don't care what shape it comes in, because to me, anything demonstrating the speed and cornering ability that F1 cars do is absolutely beautiful. Its the ability to do it, not the shape it does it in.



And yet Tim Goss had this to say:

As well as pursuing a different path from Lotus on the passive double DRS, McLaren has elected to race with a 'vanity panel' covering a stepped nose on its 2013 car.

Goss was adamant that smoothing the airflow in that area of the car was more of an advantage than the disadvantage of extra weight on the car, which is why Lotus has opted not to race it.

"Aerodynamically you would not put a step on the top surface of the nose through choice, it is an artifact of the regulations," said Goss. "So we don't...

"It is a lightweight structural cover. There is no structural significance at all, so it weighs very little.

"I think James [Allison, Lotus technical director] left it quite open as to whether they would do something.

"If we look aerodynamically at the step on the nose then, to be honest, it is not very significant but you will pull a few minor losses off it. You would not do it [have a stepped nose] out of choice, so we don't."


http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/105347


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:28 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:11 pm
Posts: 3029
Car launch confidence is completely artificial. They may believe they have a really strong car - but finishing order is relative to what everyone else has built, and they don't know what that is yet. No reason for Lewis to feel anything just yet.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:32 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:43 pm
Posts: 3385
the incubus wrote:
Don't need to read anymore as I already know all of this. The issue is that the upper has NOTHING to do with the lower and the noses can be designed so they are more aesthetically pleasing whilst not losing any of the potency of the raised front end. Additionally, the noses can be designed to sit lower and STILL harness all of that air for downforce


Incorrect, the upper has everything to do with the lower part. Because all Formula One car designers want as much flow under the nose, the top of the nose is so high. Understand this, that the shape of the top of the nose is determined by what is happening under the nose. Additionally, in 2012 McLaren attempted to put their nose a low as possible, they had to revise it mid-season with that weird kink and raise it a bit, and the 2013 car is a statement that you can wish to have a low nose, but you have to have it as high as possible.

Wanting and having are two different things.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:33 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 4:09 pm
Posts: 1182
Just because the "Current Trend" is running a very high nose for the benefits of air flow, it's only a matter of time before someone else discovers the next best thing and the step-nose approach, like most everything before it, will be a thing of the past. Hopefully a return to something that is as beautiful as it is fast. I am a designer and production specialist and it is my job to make things as attractive to the eye as possible while keeping it fully functional. In my experience, there is almost always a way to find a good balance. This on the other hand was a copout and the engineers could have done a much better job than to simply put a step in the nose. The FIA did what they are supposed to do in creating new regulations in the favor of safety and it is up to the engineers and aerodynamicists to figure out a way to make the most efficient designs but that doesn't have to come at the expense of aesthetics.

I'm a stickler for design and see things in products that irk me to no end and I can never bring myself to look past them. For instance the 2008 Honda Civics…

For whatever reason Honda chose to keep the mirrors on their 2-Door model where they have been for the last 30 years on all their civics, right at the front corner of the window panel which is clean, neat and just looks all kinds of right. On the 4-door model however, they slapped the damn things onto the doors themselves and they sit right dead smack on the longitudinal line of the car and ruin it's flow entirely. Upon seeing this I immediately went to the service manage and asked if he could bring out a replacement mirror for the 2-Door model and he did. I went over to the 4-door model and placed the mirror in the window panel in the damn thing fit perfectly. Since I have kids I had to get 4-door car but because of the mirrors, for the first time ever I went with something that wasn't a honda. Now they've since revised the model and both models have the mirrors on the doors. It might be OCD to some but for me that is a total deal breaker that I cannot get over.

_________________
Second place is the first loser!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:35 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:11 pm
Posts: 3029
Lojik wrote:


And yet Tim Goss had this to say:

As well as pursuing a different path from Lotus on the passive double DRS, McLaren has elected to race with a 'vanity panel' covering a stepped nose on its 2013 car.

Goss was adamant that smoothing the airflow in that area of the car was more of an advantage than the disadvantage of extra weight on the car, which is why Lotus has opted not to race it.

"Aerodynamically you would not put a step on the top surface of the nose through choice, it is an artifact of the regulations," said Goss. "So we don't...

"It is a lightweight structural cover. There is no structural significance at all, so it weighs very little.

"I think James [Allison, Lotus technical director] left it quite open as to whether they would do something.

"If we look aerodynamically at the step on the nose then, to be honest, it is not very significant but you will pull a few minor losses off it. You would not do it [have a stepped nose] out of choice, so we don't."


http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/105347

He's talking about the actual step, not the high nose. They had the option of keeping the low nose like last year, and decided the high nose has more benefits for them. They have chosen not to manipulate the step itself, and use the panel to minimize losses, just as some teams chose to manipulate the step last year and some chose to just make it as smooth as possible. If they could, they would make the nose as high as the chassis and eliminate the step while still reaping the benefits of the air flow underneath.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:36 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 6:41 pm
Posts: 6587
ashley313 wrote:
Car launch confidence is completely artificial. They may believe they have a really strong car - but finishing order is relative to what everyone else has built, and they don't know what that is yet. No reason for Lewis to feel anything just yet.



But Lewis does ;)

He will have an idea how the Macca was heading from the Sim before he signed and now he will have seen the Merc and drove their sim.

Whether his mood is oh fairy cakes or happy days we can only guess. But he is certainly in a better place to judge than us.

_________________
Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:39 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:11 pm
Posts: 3029
Also, the "trend" of high noses is a product of the rest of the aero regulations and tires. If and when the tires, exhaust rules, diffuser, front and rear wing, brake duct, and floor regulations all change, then a different solution might be better. Its not a social thing - its not like xyz celebrity is wearing skinny jeans so I'm going to wear skinny jeans - its the regulations dictating the available solutions and shapes.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:39 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 4:09 pm
Posts: 1182
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
the incubus wrote:
Don't need to read anymore as I already know all of this. The issue is that the upper has NOTHING to do with the lower and the noses can be designed so they are more aesthetically pleasing whilst not losing any of the potency of the raised front end. Additionally, the noses can be designed to sit lower and STILL harness all of that air for downforce


Incorrect, the upper has everything to do with the lower part. Because all Formula One car designers want as much flow under the nose, the top of the nose is so high. Understand this, that the shape of the top of the nose is determined by what is happening under the nose. Additionally, in 2012 McLaren attempted to put their nose a low as possible, they had to revise it mid-season with that weird kink and raise it a bit, and the 2013 car is a statement that you can wish to have a low nose, but you have to have it as high as possible.

Wanting and having are two different things.

I disagree. The 2013 car shows that you can have a raised nose and still keep it attractive and it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with what's going on underneath. This vanity plate could have been developed in ALL of last years cars on the upper end whilst not changing a thing underneath. So long as structurally the interior adheres to the rules, nothing prevents them from making it slick.

_________________
Second place is the first loser!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:41 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:11 pm
Posts: 3029
Johnston wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
Car launch confidence is completely artificial. They may believe they have a really strong car - but finishing order is relative to what everyone else has built, and they don't know what that is yet. No reason for Lewis to feel anything just yet.



But Lewis does ;)

He will have an idea how the Macca was heading from the Sim before he signed and now he will have seen the Merc and drove their sim.

Whether his mood is oh fairy cakes or happy days we can only guess. But he is certainly in a better place to judge than us.

Not really. Look at the RB8. A month before the season the car was headed in a completely different direction than it eventually went. If Mark or Seb had made a team change, their impression of the RBR car would be completely different from what actually turned up to race.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:43 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 6:41 pm
Posts: 6587
Thats because what Newey had planned was illegal. Macca don't tend to take those risks.

_________________
Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:44 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:11 pm
Posts: 3029
the incubus wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
the incubus wrote:
Don't need to read anymore as I already know all of this. The issue is that the upper has NOTHING to do with the lower and the noses can be designed so they are more aesthetically pleasing whilst not losing any of the potency of the raised front end. Additionally, the noses can be designed to sit lower and STILL harness all of that air for downforce


Incorrect, the upper has everything to do with the lower part. Because all Formula One car designers want as much flow under the nose, the top of the nose is so high. Understand this, that the shape of the top of the nose is determined by what is happening under the nose. Additionally, in 2012 McLaren attempted to put their nose a low as possible, they had to revise it mid-season with that weird kink and raise it a bit, and the 2013 car is a statement that you can wish to have a low nose, but you have to have it as high as possible.

Wanting and having are two different things.

I disagree. The 2013 car shows that you can have a raised nose and still keep it attractive and it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with what's going on underneath. This vanity plate could have been developed in ALL of last years cars on the upper end whilst not changing a thing underneath. So long as structurally the interior adheres to the rules, nothing prevents them from making it slick.

The panel was not legal last year. You couldn't have any part of the car above the max height for the nose above the nose. As with the difference we see in thinking from Lotus and McLaren, whether the shape of the actual step is worth covering up will depend on the team and the rest of the car. Putting more weight on top is less of a hit to the McLaren because the pullrod suspension lowers much of the weight in the front compared to the pushrod setup on the Lotus. You must look at what is underneath, not just the shape.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:48 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 4:09 pm
Posts: 1182
ashley313 wrote:
Also, the "trend" of high noses is a product of the rest of the aero regulations and tires. If and when the tires, exhaust rules, diffuser, front and rear wing, brake duct, and floor regulations all change, then a different solution might be better. Its not a social thing - its not like xyz celebrity is wearing skinny jeans so I'm going to wear skinny jeans - its the regulations dictating the available solutions and shapes.

Nope. As the saying goes, there are many ways to skin a cat. The fact is that someone was thinking outside the box and discovered something that improved aero and the rest of the sheep followed. However, the FIA saw the trend exaggerating things to a point where safety was being compromised and installed limitations for all to abide by. Coanda for example was another way of improving aero that was discovered by Sauber and everyone followed suit. there is absolutely NOTHING that says a higher nose "IS" the best way in accordance to the current regs and I'd bet there are numerous ways to achieve the same effect or better utilizing a lower slung nose, but it takes some experimentation and luck. Last year the McLaren was good from the opening round and it had the lowest nose of the field. They however experimented with a slightly raised nose and felt that it improved performance and stuck with it, but I didn't notice much of a difference. In Lewis' hands the car was fast all year long and actually looked more dominant in its A spec IMHO. Perhaps that's due to others catching up in the development race as the year wore on, but the car was really good either way which is telling that the raised nose is not the absolute best solution.

_________________
Second place is the first loser!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:51 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:11 pm
Posts: 3029
Johnston wrote:
Thats because what Newey had planned was illegal. Macca don't tend to take those risks.

It was legal until the FIA decided it wasnt, same as everything else they do! lol

Bottom line is tho that the design will change a lot between what Lewis last saw and what will race, or even what we see today and what will race. He also isn't looking at today's photos and gaining some in depth understanding of how the McLaren will work. The designers at Merc will be looking at it that way, but does Lewis have their understanding of aero and design? Probably not. If Lewis is smart, he and everyone else, will know there's no point in crazy analysis of a launch car, and certainly no point in being discouraged by it. Especially if Ross is hiding some quadruple DRS reverse double blown triple floating diffuser.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:52 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2010 6:24 pm
Posts: 52
Image

I think that the main idea behind the high nose is to give the neutral zone in the middle of the wing an effective angle of attack so it will create downforce. This would also give a lower pressure on the underside on the wing and thus encourage more air under the wing. As most have said, it is more important to have this and pay the price of working the flow over step. The modesty panel gives the best of both.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:55 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:00 pm
Posts: 605
pyratheon141 wrote:
etchedchaos wrote:
Where's the MP4-28, that's the MP4-27.


Are you joking.. its completely different!!


Are YOU joking? completely different?!

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:56 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:11 pm
Posts: 3029
the incubus wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
Also, the "trend" of high noses is a product of the rest of the aero regulations and tires. If and when the tires, exhaust rules, diffuser, front and rear wing, brake duct, and floor regulations all change, then a different solution might be better. Its not a social thing - its not like xyz celebrity is wearing skinny jeans so I'm going to wear skinny jeans - its the regulations dictating the available solutions and shapes.

Nope. As the saying goes, there are many ways to skin a cat. The fact is that someone was thinking outside the box and discovered something that improved aero and the rest of the sheep followed. However, the FIA saw the trend exaggerating things to a point where safety was being compromised and installed limitations for all to abide by. Coanda for example was another way of improving aero that was discovered by Sauber and everyone followed suit. there is absolutely NOTHING that says a higher nose "IS" the best way in accordance to the current regs and I'd bet there are numerous ways to achieve the same effect or better utilizing a lower slung nose, but it takes some experimentation and luck. Last year the McLaren was good from the opening round and it had the lowest nose of the field. They however experimented with a slightly raised nose and felt that it improved performance and stuck with it, but I didn't notice much of a difference. In Lewis' hands the car was fast all year long and actually looked more dominant in its A spec IMHO. Perhaps that's due to others catching up in the development race as the year wore on, but the car was really good either way which is telling that the raised nose is not the absolute best solution.

The low nose worked for McLaren because the rest of the car was designed for it. When they tested the higher nose they may have just decided it wouldnt work with the other half of the car, and changing that significantly might be too risky mid season.

One reason they might have chosen to go the route of the high nose this year is that they find it provides greater opportunity for further development throughout the season, especially at the back of the car. Or they just really wanted to explore the pull rod perhaps for tire performance, and the high nose is more appropriate with that layout.

Why do YOU think they've chosen the high nose this year? Peer pressure? If the low nose was everything they needed it to be last year, why didn't they stick with it?

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:59 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2003 10:09 pm
Posts: 3935
Those vanity panels will weigh next to nothing, there only structural requirement would be to not flex in the wind. Which is very simple when its curved and attached on three sides. Unless flex was advantageous of course?

Probably no more than 100-150 grams. Which is about how much weight a driver loses in sweat in just 3 laps at Malaysia. I think they will all have them come the first race.

_________________
http://www.racefan.co.uk


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:59 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:00 pm
Posts: 605
Dalemac wrote:
jammin78 wrote:
Dalemac wrote:
More proof of a modesty panel:

Image

Am I missing the definition of a modesty panel? I thought it was something that went over a stepped nose, all I see is a similar nose to last year.



Here is the car as of Brazil:

Image

Note the difference in elevation on the nose. The only way they could have done that is with a modesty panel.


that OR probably just a higher nose

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:00 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:11 pm
Posts: 3029
metamorphomisk wrote:
pyratheon141 wrote:
etchedchaos wrote:
Where's the MP4-28, that's the MP4-27.


Are you joking.. its completely different!!


Are YOU joking? completely different?!

Yeah, it is. Pullrod suspension, raised sections outboard on the floor, driveshafts, high nose, no turning vanes, new sidepods, new barge boards, new style brake ducts. The wings and exhaust outlets are really only the old spec, and the exhaust area looks like two dummy panels ready to pull out and be replaced by their real exhaust solution.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:02 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2003 10:09 pm
Posts: 3935
ashley313 wrote:
the incubus wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
Also, the "trend" of high noses is a product of the rest of the aero regulations and tires. If and when the tires, exhaust rules, diffuser, front and rear wing, brake duct, and floor regulations all change, then a different solution might be better. Its not a social thing - its not like xyz celebrity is wearing skinny jeans so I'm going to wear skinny jeans - its the regulations dictating the available solutions and shapes.

Nope. As the saying goes, there are many ways to skin a cat. The fact is that someone was thinking outside the box and discovered something that improved aero and the rest of the sheep followed. However, the FIA saw the trend exaggerating things to a point where safety was being compromised and installed limitations for all to abide by. Coanda for example was another way of improving aero that was discovered by Sauber and everyone followed suit. there is absolutely NOTHING that says a higher nose "IS" the best way in accordance to the current regs and I'd bet there are numerous ways to achieve the same effect or better utilizing a lower slung nose, but it takes some experimentation and luck. Last year the McLaren was good from the opening round and it had the lowest nose of the field. They however experimented with a slightly raised nose and felt that it improved performance and stuck with it, but I didn't notice much of a difference. In Lewis' hands the car was fast all year long and actually looked more dominant in its A spec IMHO. Perhaps that's due to others catching up in the development race as the year wore on, but the car was really good either way which is telling that the raised nose is not the absolute best solution.

The low nose worked for McLaren because the rest of the car was designed for it. When they tested the higher nose they may have just decided it wouldnt work with the other half of the car, and changing that significantly might be too risky mid season.

One reason they might have chosen to go the route of the high nose this year is that they find it provides greater opportunity for further development throughout the season, especially at the back of the car. Or they just really wanted to explore the pull rod perhaps for tire performance, and the high nose is more appropriate with that layout.

Why do YOU think they've chosen the high nose this year? Peer pressure? If the low nose was everything they needed it to be last year, why didn't they stick with it?


Mclaren switched to a higher nose after 5 races?

Image

Image

_________________
http://www.racefan.co.uk


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:04 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:00 pm
Posts: 605
lamo wrote:
Modesty panels are going to be made as one with the nose, all one piece and then sprayed so you are not going to see them. This is F1 they aren't just going to screw on a little panel.


of course they dont, they use glue

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:05 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 4:09 pm
Posts: 1182
But that's just it. The modesty panel is for all intents and purposes a part of the overall structure as this 2013 McLaren shows. It's not just a mere bolt-on solution they cam up with. Knowing McLaren they tested the aero both with and without the panel and if they went in this direction it's for a reason. In a business where every last hundredth counts, the step in the nose could be the difference in what deems a car as too slow.

_________________
Second place is the first loser!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:07 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:11 pm
Posts: 3029
No step, no high nose relative to the others.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:08 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 6:41 pm
Posts: 6587
ashley313 wrote:
Johnston wrote:
Thats because what Newey had planned was illegal. Macca don't tend to take those risks.

It was legal until the FIA decided it wasnt, same as everything else they do! lol

Bottom line is tho that the design will change a lot between what Lewis last saw and what will race, or even what we see today and what will race. He also isn't looking at today's photos and gaining some in depth understanding of how the McLaren will work. The designers at Merc will be looking at it that way, but does Lewis have their understanding of aero and design? Probably not. If Lewis is smart, he and everyone else, will know there's no point in crazy analysis of a launch car, and certainly no point in being discouraged by it. Especially if Ross is hiding some quadruple DRS reverse double blown triple floating diffuser.



He will have driven the car in the sim which has had 4 months more development. Remember his comments to Sergio about how good it was?

He'll know it's had 4 more months of development and it's not likely to have went backwards in the mean time and will know if they have made major changes. If they have made big changes he will know they won't have been done to make it look nicer but to make it quicker than it was in the Sim back in September.

He can make a direct comparison to where Merc are now and where Macca were. What Merc have and where Macca have went.

That might be good news for him or it might be bad only he knows.

_________________
Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:08 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:00 pm
Posts: 605
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Johnston wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Johnston wrote:
If they have covered it, I am very surprised Lotus didn't. what benefit would a step bring over the smoother nose.

James Allison said that a vanity panel added extra weight and raised the center of gravity.

I'm not saying that argument makes sense (because a panel would be a few grams) but that was his justification.



You would think though the panel would give a smoother air flow.

Quick mock up not perfect due to the angles but gives an idea.
Image

And damn I just realised I forgot to extend one line. :blush: :blush: You may all get a straight edge and a felt tip pen out. :lol:

I agree, however I expect teams to get quite inventive with the vanity panel as it has been quickly shoehorned into the regulations and consequently there will probably be a lot of loopholes they can exploit with it. This is probably why the Lotus launched without one.


Newey: did somebody say inventive and loopholes?

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:14 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:11 pm
Posts: 3029
The modestly panel is NOT structural. 3.7.9 "With the exception of an optional, single piece, non-structural fairing of prescribed laminate (whose precise lay-up may be found in the Appendix to the regulations) which may not be more than 625mm above the reference plane at any point, no bodywork situated more than
1950mm forward of rear face of the cockpit entry template may be more than 550mm above the reference plane."

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:17 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2008 4:07 pm
Posts: 5666
Johnston wrote:
daytona81 wrote:
I'm actually disappointed. The car looks as similar to last years car as the e21 does to its predecessor. I want to see something new and crazy. Maybe m expectations are to high. Lol



If it's true and it looks like it about the high chassis. Then the MP4-28is nothing like the MP4-27.

Red Bull exhaust, Driveshaft covered by the wishbone, High Chassis, Pull Rod front. Fairly big changes.

Just hope McLaren have bitten off more than they can chew by making so many changes and don't end up like Ferrari last year trying to understand the car.

I'm not sure it has Red Bull style exhaust. It has their own solution from last year. Lotus copied Red Bull.

_________________
..


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:18 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:11 pm
Posts: 3029
Johnston wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
Johnston wrote:
Thats because what Newey had planned was illegal. Macca don't tend to take those risks.

It was legal until the FIA decided it wasnt, same as everything else they do! lol

Bottom line is tho that the design will change a lot between what Lewis last saw and what will race, or even what we see today and what will race. He also isn't looking at today's photos and gaining some in depth understanding of how the McLaren will work. The designers at Merc will be looking at it that way, but does Lewis have their understanding of aero and design? Probably not. If Lewis is smart, he and everyone else, will know there's no point in crazy analysis of a launch car, and certainly no point in being discouraged by it. Especially if Ross is hiding some quadruple DRS reverse double blown triple floating diffuser.



He will have driven the car in the sim which has had 4 months more development. Remember his comments to Sergio about how good it was?

He'll know it's had 4 more months of development and it's not likely to have went backwards in the mean time and will know if they have made major changes. If they have made big changes he will know they won't have been done to make it look nicer but to make it quicker than it was in the Sim back in September.

He can make a direct comparison to where Merc are now and where Macca were. What Merc have and where Macca have went.

That might be good news for him or it might be bad only he knows.

Where McLaren were and where Merc are now have nothing to do with this launch car though. So again, seeing the car today shouldn't have any effect on his outlook, not from a technical standpoint.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:20 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 6:41 pm
Posts: 6587
He'll see if they have made any major changes in the last 4 months. Which as I have said won't have been done to make it look pretty.

_________________
Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:39 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 9:39 pm
Posts: 2076
pyratheon141 wrote:
Image

I think that the main idea behind the high nose is to give the neutral zone in the middle of the wing an effective angle of attack so it will create downforce. This would also give a lower pressure on the underside on the wing and thus encourage more air under the wing. As most have said, it is more important to have this and pay the price of working the flow over step. The modesty panel gives the best of both.

The higher nose enables a cleaner airflow to the underneath of the car leading to faster air running through the diffuser generating more rear downforce. This is particularly important in the post 2008 regs now they run smaller rear wings as it allows them to generate more rear downforce. Its the same reason for using pull rod front suspension.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:06 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 6:41 pm
Posts: 6587
dizlexik wrote:
Johnston wrote:
daytona81 wrote:
I'm actually disappointed. The car looks as similar to last years car as the e21 does to its predecessor. I want to see something new and crazy. Maybe m expectations are to high. Lol



If it's true and it looks like it about the high chassis. Then the MP4-28is nothing like the MP4-27.

Red Bull exhaust, Driveshaft covered by the wishbone, High Chassis, Pull Rod front. Fairly big changes.

Just hope McLaren have bitten off more than they can chew by making so many changes and don't end up like Ferrari last year trying to understand the car.

I'm not sure it has Red Bull style exhaust. It has their own solution from last year. Lotus copied Red Bull.



Yeah my mistake. There was someone talking about that the exhausts look very temporary and the reckoned they might be launch only and they are going red bull.

_________________
Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:12 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 4:13 pm
Posts: 39
2012 vs 2013 graphical comparison:
http://www.marca.com/2013/01/31/multime ... 43880.html


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:19 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 3:56 am
Posts: 7710
Location: London
Why do I get they feeling that if you showed Ashley a piece of black card she would argue that it was white...

_________________
1994 1995 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 Get well soon Schumi.

No one call anyone a moo-pickle...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:25 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:11 pm
Posts: 3029
Dunno, but your feeling is wrong (again) :)

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:26 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 6:41 pm
Posts: 6587
Laura23 wrote:
Why do I get they feeling that if you showed Ashley a piece of black card she would argue that it was white...



she's female :P :lol:

_________________
Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:30 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 3:56 am
Posts: 7710
Location: London
ashley313 wrote:
Dunno, but your feeling is wrong (again) :)

Somehow I don't think I am this time. I'm in no mood to steal your know it all status on the forum, don't worry.

_________________
1994 1995 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 Get well soon Schumi.

No one call anyone a moo-pickle...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:35 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:11 pm
Posts: 3029
ashley313 wrote:
the incubus wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
Also, the "trend" of high noses is a product of the rest of the aero regulations and tires. If and when the tires, exhaust rules, diffuser, front and rear wing, brake duct, and floor regulations all change, then a different solution might be better. Its not a social thing - its not like xyz celebrity is wearing skinny jeans so I'm going to wear skinny jeans - its the regulations dictating the available solutions and shapes.

Nope. As the saying goes, there are many ways to skin a cat. The fact is that someone was thinking outside the box and discovered something that improved aero and the rest of the sheep followed. However, the FIA saw the trend exaggerating things to a point where safety was being compromised and installed limitations for all to abide by. Coanda for example was another way of improving aero that was discovered by Sauber and everyone followed suit. there is absolutely NOTHING that says a higher nose "IS" the best way in accordance to the current regs and I'd bet there are numerous ways to achieve the same effect or better utilizing a lower slung nose, but it takes some experimentation and luck. Last year the McLaren was good from the opening round and it had the lowest nose of the field. They however experimented with a slightly raised nose and felt that it improved performance and stuck with it, but I didn't notice much of a difference. In Lewis' hands the car was fast all year long and actually looked more dominant in its A spec IMHO. Perhaps that's due to others catching up in the development race as the year wore on, but the car was really good either way which is telling that the raised nose is not the absolute best solution.

The low nose worked for McLaren because the rest of the car was designed for it. When they tested the higher nose they may have just decided it wouldnt work with the other half of the car, and changing that significantly might be too risky mid season.

One reason they might have chosen to go the route of the high nose this year is that they find it provides greater opportunity for further development throughout the season, especially at the back of the car. Or they just really wanted to explore the pull rod perhaps for tire performance, and the high nose is more appropriate with that layout.

Why do YOU think they've chosen the high nose this year? Peer pressure? If the low nose was everything they needed it to be last year, why didn't they stick with it?

Oh, look at that. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/105351




And don't worry Laura, no one would accuse you of being a know it all 8)

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: McLaren MP4-28
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:50 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2008 4:07 pm
Posts: 5666
Johnston wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
Johnston wrote:
daytona81 wrote:
I'm actually disappointed. The car looks as similar to last years car as the e21 does to its predecessor. I want to see something new and crazy. Maybe m expectations are to high. Lol



If it's true and it looks like it about the high chassis. Then the MP4-28is nothing like the MP4-27.

Red Bull exhaust, Driveshaft covered by the wishbone, High Chassis, Pull Rod front. Fairly big changes.

Just hope McLaren have bitten off more than they can chew by making so many changes and don't end up like Ferrari last year trying to understand the car.

I'm not sure it has Red Bull style exhaust. It has their own solution from last year. Lotus copied Red Bull.



Yeah my mistake. There was someone talking about that the exhausts look very temporary and the reckoned they might be launch only and they are going red bull.

I only read BBC analysis and yes the car is going to change anyway.

_________________
..


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: DirtyMike, Exediron, johnp, Rock Brocaine, Teach206, tootsie323 and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group