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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:03 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
Was it their sim or a failure of the engine supplier to provide accurate economy data?



FIA changed the fuel regs. So in the original spec they needed less fuel so could get away with a smaller tank. Then the FIA changed things around and Virgin were too far ahead/to small to turn it around. They knew in advance it was going to happen and started doing a longer chassis.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:48 pm 
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Guys, I never follow off season testing, just scan the times occasionally and clock the head lines, so a question please.

What is the rule on cars/drivers?

Is it just one car and one driver allowed?

It would seem to make more sense to take as many cars and drivers as possible to get time on track rather than just one car and one driver.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:57 pm 
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moby wrote:
Guys, I never follow off season testing, just scan the times occasionally and clock the head lines, so a question please.

What is the rule on cars/drivers?

Is it just one car and one driver allowed?

It would seem to make more sense to take as many cars and drivers as possible to get time on track rather than just one car and one driver.


Just one chassis (IE Car) allowed. They can do what they want with the drivers but I think they are only allowed one driver per session (IE Morning or Afternoon).

I think it's about managing the number of cars on track so teams can collect suitable data without being held up...

Also, they probably don't need as many behind the scenes circuit staff with half the cars...

:D :D :D


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:57 pm 
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moby wrote:
Guys, I never follow off season testing, just scan the times occasionally and clock the head lines, so a question please.

What is the rule on cars/drivers?

Is it just one car and one driver allowed?

It would seem to make more sense to take as many cars and drivers as possible to get time on track rather than just one car and one driver.


its a good question.

always just thought 1 car (with a shed load of spare parts) and alternating drivers.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:21 pm 
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Dev111 wrote:
andrewmapes wrote:
Just a reminder that Rosberg had the quickest time over the 4 days tetsing at Jerez last year with a 1m17.613 on day 3 and we know how awful they performed throughout the year (although their qualifying in australia wasn't too bad, 4th and 7th).

Headline times really don't tell the whole story, although if someone had put in a 1m16 today we may be saying otherwise (outright speed doesn't lie). I'm sure Caterham or Marussia would love to put in a time like Button's. Even if they were stripped out bear I'm not they'd be able to.

Apart from this, read any 'expert' opinion and they'll tell you that long run pace is the best way to understand the pecking order. Others also check out a cars behaviour at a certain corner to see how the car handles (ferrari last year for example, it was obvious it was a handful). As Jerez is the 1st test, not many meaningful long runs happen the first couple of days if at all, it's all about system checks and setup.

I expect the real hacks will be able to give us a first insight at he end of this test but we'll have to wait until Barcelona to see if those first impressions were near the mark.

It's a puzzle gents, lets try not to put the last piece in before we've finished the edges!! Enjoy the suspense, we've been waiting 2 months for it all to begin!!


last year rosbergs time was set in the 2011 car with blown difusser which was a couple seconds quicker than the 2012 cars.

I think what ever the times are its a better sign to be at the top than the bottom. Say jensons time of today was a 1.18. some of the other teams wouldnt be able to get to that time, even with new tyres and low fuel. therefore those teams know already that the mclaren is a faster car. the funny thing is, is that mclaren dont know that. the same situation can happen for long runs. if the lotus did a 10 lap long run in the 22s on hards, there wil be some teams who wouldnt be able to do that. but again lotus wouldnt have a clue.

If your a team, you can easily tell which cars are faster than you. but you dont know for sure which cars who you're faster than. if that makes sense.


Sure that makes sense. The teams have a much better clue but as usual they all play their cards very close to their chests, understandable considering whats at stake! Which leaves us poor spectators none the wiser as to the true pace of the teams and the pecking order which I suppose is why threads like this exist!!! I find some of the expert views pretty handy though, Gary Anderson at the BBC is an insider with good knowledge given his experience and he makes some useful comments about what to look for, things he's noticed. Again, just a few pieces of the puzzle but every little helps!!!


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:45 pm 
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can we expect some new "parts" on Vettels car tomorrow?

answer probably no!

just have a feeling RBR are further behind the 8 ball than they would like and no amount of Vettel Hitler jokes can hide it!

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:46 pm 
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Did anyone watch the Sky roundup/Ted's notebook? If it's worth watching then I'll sign up for Sky Go earlier than planned :] Any interesting items other than what we'd already read on here/Autosport/BBC?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:00 am 
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photoshopped wrote:
Did anyone watch the Sky roundup/Ted's notebook? If it's worth watching then I'll sign up for Sky Go earlier than planned :] Any interesting items other than what we'd already read on here/Autosport/BBC?


Ted never mentioned anything that MATTERS we dont already know!

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:02 am 
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photoshopped wrote:
Did anyone watch the Sky roundup/Ted's notebook? If it's worth watching then I'll sign up for Sky Go earlier than planned :] Any interesting items other than what we'd already read on here/Autosport/BBC?


Both the roundup and the notebook are on their website now to watch for free. He basically just goes over the additions to the cars while the roundup show is really just interviews with the drivers and they show Chilton's off.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:51 am 
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egnat69 wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
You'd have to have a WHOLE bad car to need to start over, and they'd know from simulation if their concept was hopeless, and they'd know that a long time ago. Nobody will have shown up at testing with a car that just plain doesn't work - not at this level of the sport.

respectfully, i have to ... not too long ago a team them known as virgin racing managed to show up with a car that wouldn't make a full race distance due to a too small fuel tank ... i would call that hopeless and it was the sim that got them into that sh**

however, basically you're right ... ;)


I do agree but it has happened, Mclaren in 2004 had begun designing a B spec car before the first race which had its debut at the French GP mid season. But that is very rare.
Mclaren to a lesser extent turned up with the octopus exhaust system that was 2 seconds a lap slower than the solution they bolted on literally at first practise in Australia. They wasted all of winter testing that year with the octopus, might have challenge for the title if they had got that right earlier.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:37 am 
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Seb doesn't drive until thursday.

And I think the one car rules is to prevent teams that could afford to run four cars from having an advantage over teams that could only run two, in addition to managing traffic. And for initial testing running two cars is a wasted expense, as you probably aren't ready to try multiple configurations side by side just yet.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:59 am 
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ashley313 wrote:
Seb doesn't drive until thursday.

And I think the one car rules is to prevent teams that could afford to run four cars from having an advantage over teams that could only run two, in addition to managing traffic. And for initial testing running two cars is a wasted expense, as you probably aren't ready to try multiple configurations side by side just yet.


Really do not agree with that rule, heavily restricting testing in terms of cost then only allow 1 car per day. The teams can hardly test, let them run 2 races for the very few days they actually can. They only test in Europe, so its hauling another car and spares over in a lorry.

The teams could basically double the amount of testings days they have for probably only 20% more cost.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:09 am 
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Dont forget the personnel required to run a two car effort. Thats more hours to pay, travel, hotel, more food in hospitality, and its physically and mentally more taxing for those people. The more people you can keep fresh the better.

There are also material costs...consumables for the car like brakes and fluids, more things to fix or replace when they break or when the car crashes into something.

And then there are the costs for Pirelli...bringing 30 sets of tires for each team is doubling their production, transport, and likely their number of personnel trackside, which then encompasses all the same costs above.

It also requires building 2 sets of the first gen body work when they might not bother with it otherwise. If they decide the first version of some parts will be replaced for the next test, then they only have to make one set of spares up front. Making double of everything, which may just end up getting scrapped anyway, costs more resources at home.

Lastly, you can only analyze so much data in a given amount of time. Going over two different baselines (and it would have to be different or there'd be no point in running two cars), in a meaningful way, in the short amount of time between each of the three tests and even across the full testing calendar, is immensely difficult.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:30 am 
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ashley313 wrote:
you can only analyze so much data in a given amount of time. Going over two different baselines (and it would have to be different or there'd be no point in running two cars), in a meaningful way, in the short amount of time between each of the three tests and even across the full testing calendar, is immensely difficult.


One thing you'd have is ability to compare two configurations in the same conditions. Otherwise you're left guessing, did the result change because of what we did to the car, or are the track conditions just changing?

I think it's very valuable to be able to run two cars at once, at least at the first test. Look at Mercedes and McLaren, it's common for some small stupid thing to waste a whole day, then all those people at the track are wasted. If they had 2 cars then they wouldn't have been wasted.

So it's easy to point to just one area and say "look what we saved" but that can cost you elsewhere, or cost you in productivity per man-hour. All the big teams would gladly pay to have 2 cars there, and if the smaller teams can't afford that, they're too ill-funded to be competitive anyway.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:39 am 
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Correlations aren't a total mystery - data and experience can give you a pretty good idea of whats what, and the difference in drivers can be as significant as a difference in track conditions.

I've also had the unfortunate experience of running multiple cars at a test, having one break, and requiring the resources of the entire team to correct - which meant NOT running the other cars as much as we wanted.

By doing it at the FIRST test, you're wasting time shaking down two of the same thing. You don't need two cars to determine if your basics work, which is what much of the first test is. You don't need two cars to determine fuel consumption, collect temperature values, test your aero bits, etc. You also don't want to make changes to one without first having a baseline, or your decision on what to change is arbitrary. A decision to change a setting or swap out a part is usually based on data you have already collected, not a random notion. What is the point of using two cars to establish the same baseline? That's running twice the operation to do the work.

You can't just skip around in much of the program and have one car doing the first part of the program while the other does the second. There are steps and you build on them.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:44 am 
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Some "non-reliable" reports from the track saying that the Force India looks like its a handful, Ferrari and McLaren handling well but the Red Bull looks planted to the road.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:56 am 
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I heard all of the cars were a handful when the tires had some miles on them. Pirelli did say they hoped to shorten a tire stint for this year. FOM really hates those one-stoppers.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:15 am 
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this site is the best for live timing and stints.

http://f1tests.info/2013.php


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:21 am 
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Aaaaaand the first legality drama begins.

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/news ... -at-jerez/

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 6:21 am 
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ashley313 wrote:
Aaaaaand the first legality drama begins.

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/news ... -at-jerez/

During testing pretty much everything is legal.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 6:31 am 
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Which, considering we're so early in testing, will mean basically 2 things: everybody will probably try to have one of their own ready in the warehouse, and - if will be present in Australia -they'll launch a complaint towards the lucky user to see if FIA deems it legal. If yes, everybody will have it in Malaysia.
Don't seem to be such a complicated piece of equipment to replicate anyway, certainly much easier than DDRS...whether it's legal or not, I can't tell. If the holes in the floor were not holes in the floor, I guess that everything goes.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 7:01 am 
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Looks like Button will walk this championship

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 7:06 am 
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Cue "it's only testing"

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 7:25 am 
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Like the sig ashley. :lol:
Having said that.. The Formula 1 season is pre season testing, 20 races and 22 drivers, and in the end Vettel wins.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 7:28 am 
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specdecible wrote:
Some "non-reliable" reports from the track saying that the Force India looks like its a handful, Ferrari and McLaren handling well but the Red Bull looks planted to the road.


Yeah, many of them look like a handfull (surprise, surprise it's testing). The other one is Williams.

Torro Rosso looks like they have improved. They should be a good challenge to the middle order.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 7:40 am 
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ashley313 wrote:
I heard all of the cars were a handful when the tires had some miles on them. Pirelli did say they hoped to shorten a tire stint for this year. FOM really hates those one-stoppers.


So do I...I hope there's plenty of 3 stop races this year, but there will always be whingers

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 7:48 am 
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Strong runs from Ricciardo in the STR on day 1. I hope they keep that up

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:14 am 
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day 2 started. Will lewis manage more laps than rosberg. we will soon find out.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:18 am 
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Well Hamilton managed an installation lap without it breaking down. That's a start.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:26 am 
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I have a feeling Lewis will be doing the majority of yesterdays testing and todays - so expect big long runs

cant wait to see perez out in the McLaren


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:32 am 
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lewis ontrack... and red flag.. not sure if its lewis yet

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:33 am 
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not lewis, its a torro rosso

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:34 am 
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Good run from Ricciardo on the hard tyre again

Red Flag...waiting for cause..ahh poor ol Dan, I spoke too soon

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:35 am 
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Another Senna chicane? Why is it named after Senna...he never drove through it..oh wait, Martin D..

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:37 am 
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That was on Ricciardo's outlap??

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:52 am 
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Johnston wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
Was it their sim or a failure of the engine supplier to provide accurate economy data?



FIA changed the fuel regs. So in the original spec they needed less fuel so could get away with a smaller tank. Then the FIA changed things around and Virgin were too far ahead/to small to turn it around. They knew in advance it was going to happen and started doing a longer chassis.

looks like you can help me out since you might have much more knowledge about it ... what fuel regs did they change? wasn't it clear long time before that refuelling would be banned?

still, if it was about the ban on refuelling - i remember it being like the virgin car did manage a race-distance on some circuits, but not on all - so if the car was designed with refuelling in mind, it woulf have had a way to large fuel-cell ... according to an interview on the bbc-website it was about 13 litres short... http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8588379.stm

wirth states:
Quote:
"It has become clear during pre-season testing and our debut race in Bahrain that our fuel tank capacity is marginal and if not addressed there is the possibility that fuel pick-up could become an issue in certain circumstances.
At the time that the design of the tank was locked down in June 2009, its capacity was determined by a number of factors, some of which have since changed and the tank capacity now needs to be increased accordingly."


i always thought it was poor planning and simulation by virgin - i.e. miscalculation of drag and thus miscalculation of required fuel... media reports back then certainly made it look like that (see link above)...

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:59 am 
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Covalent wrote:
Every year during early spring a group of people emerge from hibernation and go about on a most peculiar ritual of telling everyone that testing times don't mean anything. One can only marvel at the precision of timing and sense of purpose of these occurrences.
No one really yet understands this behavior but it is believed to stem from ancient sociological features evolved through the millennia.
Truly magnificent phenomenon.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 9:01 am 
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egnat69 wrote:
looks like you can help me out since you might have much more knowledge about it ... what fuel regs did they change? wasn't it clear long time before that refuelling would be banned?

still, if it was about the ban on refuelling - i remember it being like the virgin car did manage a race-distance on some circuits, but not on all - so if the car was designed with refuelling in mind, it woulf have had a way to large fuel-cell ... according to an interview on the bbc-website it was about 13 litres short... http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8588379.stm

wirth states:
Quote:
"It has become clear during pre-season testing and our debut race in Bahrain that our fuel tank capacity is marginal and if not addressed there is the possibility that fuel pick-up could become an issue in certain circumstances.
At the time that the design of the tank was locked down in June 2009, its capacity was determined by a number of factors, some of which have since changed and the tank capacity now needs to be increased accordingly."


i always thought it was poor planning and simulation by virgin - i.e. miscalculation of drag and thus miscalculation of required fuel... media reports back then certainly made it look like that (see link above)...


It was the octane rating of the fuel IIRC. Or the spec of it at least.

The original planned fuel was basically more efficient so they needed less to cover a race distance. I think it was then they introduced the %bio fuel rule. Not 100% on that one though.

It was known about because I remember it being talked about pre-season. But I think they hoped it would be marginal enough to get away with it as it meant new chassis..

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 9:23 am 
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Johnston wrote:
It was the octane rating of the fuel IIRC. Or the spec of it at least.

The original planned fuel was basically more efficient so they needed less to cover a race distance. I think it was then they introduced the %bio fuel rule. Not 100% on that one though.

It was known about because I remember it being talked about pre-season. But I think they hoped it would be marginal enough to get away with it as it meant new chassis..

ah well... fair enough... thanks for the clarification then... virgins image shall be restored (a bit) ;)

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 9:27 am 
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Webber Red Bull 1m19.921s 18
2 Ricciardo Toro Rosso 1m20.024s +0.103 16
3 Hamilton Mercedes 1m22.062s +2.141 10
4 Grosjean Lotus 1m22.696s +2.775 4
5 Razia Marussia 1m25.219s +5.298 10
6 vd Garde Caterham 1m26.447s +6.526 9
7 di Resta Force India 1m26.619s +6.698 22
8 Maldonado Williams 1m27.124s +7.203 7
9 Massa Ferrari 1m39.697s +19.776 10


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