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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:44 am 
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Montoya, surely miss the cocky personality and competitiveness.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:04 am 
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Kubica is a given I think, such a shame but not exactly anyone's fault but his own.
Other than him, the only one I would want a comeback from is Kobayashi - he's impressed me and I'm going to miss him. I can't see how he's out of F1 compared to some... (Karthikeyan??? Seriously???)

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:21 am 
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Amon wrote:
I now realized that I left out 2008, I updated my original post.
Why did you include a year from last century though? ;)
Amon wrote:
Surely I remember Ralf, not bad driver but I always found him overrated. He was not really spectucular IMO and his last year in Toyota was really bad.
I want to add Winkelhock to my list, he got only 1 chance and although lucky he let that GP briefly. He might have been good.

The best driver I ever saw in action nearly put some fans to sleep, that's how unspectacular he was. I would say Ralf deserved another chance.
Winkelhock definitely! Was there ever a better man than he to present the fans with the eternal problem of needing obscene amounts of cash, simply to run in a back-of-the-grid no-hope car? It may have been pouring with rain, but he and Spijker shone that day!

The names I would put forward myself are Takuma Sato and Robert Doornbos.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:49 am 
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SchumieRules wrote:
funkymonkey wrote:
Kubica > Hakkinen > Davidson in that order.

Hakkinen is second only because he had his go in top team. He won WDCs, and mostly because he wanted to retire. Kubica was almost destined to go to top team or have top 3 car to drive had he stayed with same team. Really gutted for him.


I would include Hakkinen myself, but Hakkinen didn't lose his seat. He retired himself. I can't say that he should deserve a second chance as he was wronged, like some other drivers

The thing is though, this thread is about which drivers people would like to see make a come back or have made a comeback not drivers who should get a second chance. There is a huge difference & my answer would be totally different :D


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:01 am 
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DrG wrote:
SchumieRules wrote:
funkymonkey wrote:
Kubica > Hakkinen > Davidson in that order.

Hakkinen is second only because he had his go in top team. He won WDCs, and mostly because he wanted to retire. Kubica was almost destined to go to top team or have top 3 car to drive had he stayed with same team. Really gutted for him.


I would include Hakkinen myself, but Hakkinen didn't lose his seat. He retired himself. I can't say that he should deserve a second chance as he was wronged, like some other drivers

The thing is though, this thread is about which drivers people would like to see make a come back or have made a comeback not drivers who should get a second chance. There is a huge difference & my answer would be totally different :D


Technicality surely, but Amon talked about drivers who lost their seat in the OP, so I wouldn't include Hakkinen there.

Anyway, it's trivial

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:57 pm 
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SchumieRules wrote:
DrG wrote:
SchumieRules wrote:
funkymonkey wrote:
Kubica > Hakkinen > Davidson in that order.

Hakkinen is second only because he had his go in top team. He won WDCs, and mostly because he wanted to retire. Kubica was almost destined to go to top team or have top 3 car to drive had he stayed with same team. Really gutted for him.


I would include Hakkinen myself, but Hakkinen didn't lose his seat. He retired himself. I can't say that he should deserve a second chance as he was wronged, like some other drivers

The thing is though, this thread is about which drivers people would like to see make a come back or have made a comeback not drivers who should get a second chance. There is a huge difference & my answer would be totally different :D


Technicality surely, but Amon talked about drivers who lost their seat in the OP, so I wouldn't include Hakkinen there.

Anyway, it's trivial


Well I dunno how else I should have worded it. But I just put on all the names of the drivers on the year they left F1 without returning. I know a guy like Alesi officially retired at the end of 2001 but so did Schumi in 2006 but yet he made a comeback in 2010. Officially retired from F1 is always going to be a point of discussion. Take for example Jan Lammers who drove in the seventies than he retired and came back to drive some races for the March team in 1992!

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:04 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
Amon wrote:
I now realized that I left out 2008, I updated my original post.
Why did you include a year from last century though? ;)

Fiki, some say 2000 is part of this century, some say it's part of the previous. I just wanted to avoid that people said I left out 2000 (not that Herbert or Diniz were that great lol).
Actually I liked Herbert and I don't think he ever reached his real potential in F1. I have read it was because he didn't give himself enough time to let a broken leg heal. He might have been a potential WDC had he been smarter.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:05 pm 
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Kubica. He showed us his magic but what could he have done the last couple of years and the years coming...

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:05 pm 
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Just remembered Stephane Sarrazin I know he raced just once in 1999 but he did qualify the Minardi up at 17th which was incredible and drive well in the race before his crash. Always thought he would have been worth a full season


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:21 pm 
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HulkStrong wrote:
Kubica. He showed us his magic but what could he have done the last couple of years and the years coming...


He never really managed to convincingly beat Heidfeld.

It's a bit like what I was discussing recently in another thread. People always say Montoya is better than Ralf Schumacher. Why? Why why why why why?

And there is no why, in either case, that I can see.

If I was asked to name a driver better than Nick Heidfeld and Ralf Schumacher I would say, Alonso, Michael, Seb, Kimi and a few others. I would not say Kubica. I know it's sad he had his accident, but for me he is not proven as a great driver, only a good one.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:29 pm 
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Eva no one said Kubica was better than the Vettel's and Schuey's. Just that he was a great talent probably lost for good. He proved in 2008, when BMW cut their development for 08 and moved it to 09 when they still had a title shot, he could fight with the big guns with one arm tied behind his back. Again in 2010 he out his Renault in places it probably didn't belong at times. He had the talent and the temprement to be a WDC, no question.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:37 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
Eva no one said Kubica was better than the Vettel's and Schuey's. Just that he was a great talent probably lost for good. He proved in 2008, when BMW cut their development for 08 and moved it to 09 when they still had a title shot, he could fight with the big guns with one arm tied behind his back. Again in 2010 he out his Renault in places it probably didn't belong at times. He had the talent and the temprement to be a WDC, no question.


Hmm, my contention is that Heidfeld was not driving that 2010 car, only the inexperienced Petrov. That may well have made Kubica seem great when Heidfeld would have been putting the same car on the podium, like he did in previous years.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:38 pm 
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Eva09 wrote:
HulkStrong wrote:
Kubica. He showed us his magic but what could he have done the last couple of years and the years coming...


He never really managed to convincingly beat Heidfeld.

It's a bit like what I was discussing recently in another thread. People always say Montoya is better than Ralf Schumacher. Why? Why why why why why?

And there is no why, in either case, that I can see.

If I was asked to name a driver better than Nick Heidfeld and Ralf Schumacher I would say, Alonso, Michael, Seb, Kimi and a few others. I would not say Kubica. I know it's sad he had his accident, but for me he is not proven as a great driver, only a good one.


I think as far as both go they beat there team mate when it counted and went on a tittle run.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:45 pm 
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Let's not forget Robert Kubica used to be a very young guy when he was still a Formula One-driver, so there was lots of room for progress.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:52 pm 
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The 2008 Massa.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 5:01 pm 
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I got a hunch your wish will come true :)

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:29 pm 
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Eva09 wrote:
HulkStrong wrote:
Kubica. He showed us his magic but what could he have done the last couple of years and the years coming...


He never really managed to convincingly beat Heidfeld.

It's a bit like what I was discussing recently in another thread. People always say Montoya is better than Ralf Schumacher. Why? Why why why why why?

And there is no why, in either case, that I can see.

If I was asked to name a driver better than Nick Heidfeld and Ralf Schumacher I would say, Alonso, Michael, Seb, Kimi and a few others. I would not say Kubica. I know it's sad he had his accident, but for me he is not proven as a great driver, only a good one.


Ralf only outscored Montoya in 2001 (which was JPM's rookie season), the other 3 seasons Montoya had the upper hand, if you add up the points they scored when together at Williams, Montoya wins again too. Ralf won 6 times, JPM 4 times. JPM finished 3d in the WDC twice, Ralf 4th twice as best. If only victories matter than Ralf is better but I think the other stats should not be neglected. Ralf won 3 times when JPM was a rookie. JPM wins hands down I think.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:59 pm 
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Häkkinen
Kubica
Alguersuari

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:18 am 
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f1fan22 wrote:
The 2008 Massa.

:thumbup:

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:25 am 
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Amon wrote:
Eva09 wrote:
HulkStrong wrote:
Kubica. He showed us his magic but what could he have done the last couple of years and the years coming...


He never really managed to convincingly beat Heidfeld.

It's a bit like what I was discussing recently in another thread. People always say Montoya is better than Ralf Schumacher. Why? Why why why why why?

And there is no why, in either case, that I can see.

If I was asked to name a driver better than Nick Heidfeld and Ralf Schumacher I would say, Alonso, Michael, Seb, Kimi and a few others. I would not say Kubica. I know it's sad he had his accident, but for me he is not proven as a great driver, only a good one.


Ralf only outscored Montoya in 2001 (which was JPM's rookie season), the other 3 seasons Montoya had the upper hand, if you add up the points they scored when together at Williams, Montoya wins again too. Ralf won 6 times, JPM 4 times. JPM finished 3d in the WDC twice, Ralf 4th twice as best. If only victories matter than Ralf is better but I think the other stats should not be neglected. Ralf won 3 times when JPM was a rookie. JPM wins hands down I think.


Don't forget Ralf missed quite a few races with injury in the time they were team mates and both raced the score was 173/195 to Montoya. I think Montoya was the more talented but he hardly won hands down. In many ways he lost.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:09 am 
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Eva09 wrote:
HulkStrong wrote:
Kubica. He showed us his magic but what could he have done the last couple of years and the years coming...


He never really managed to convincingly beat Heidfeld.

It's a bit like what I was discussing recently in another thread. People always say Montoya is better than Ralf Schumacher. Why? Why why why why why?

And there is no why, in either case, that I can see.

If I was asked to name a driver better than Nick Heidfeld and Ralf Schumacher I would say, Alonso, Michael, Seb, Kimi and a few others. I would not say Kubica. I know it's sad he had his accident, but for me he is not proven as a great driver, only a good one.

Here's my repsonse to a similar question from a different thread:
mcdo wrote:
I don't know why people get so hung up on teammate battles. It's a circular debate that more or less can't be resolved. (Alonso was beaten by Hamilton who was beaten by Button who was beaten by Fisichella who was beaten by Alonso who was beaten by Trulli who was beaten by Kovalainen who was beaten by Hamilton and so on).

Look at the multitude of factors at play throughout the seasons. Patterns start to emerge as to who is the real deal and who is simply a journeyman.

Occasionally you may get a false reading i.e. Giancarlo Fisichella often displayed the characteristics of a driver that just needed his big break to succeed. He got his big break and couldn't live up to the task.

Just watching Kubica drive I felt like I was watching the real deal. And I have always felt that if Kubica and Heidfeld were teammates in a car good enough for a title, Kubica would have come out on top. And I feel it's a shame that we'll never find out if he really was as good as many believed he was.

Anyway I always thought quite highly of Heidfeld. Mr. Consistency. A reliable pair of hands to keep collecting the points. Got a dealt a raw deal by a number of teams (McLaren, Merc, Renault). I would have loved to have seen Heidfeld up against Rosberg in the Merc, a driver that hasn't set my world alight like he has many others.

You can apply much of the same logic to Montoya/Ralf.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:51 am 
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Amon wrote:
Eva09 wrote:
HulkStrong wrote:
Kubica. He showed us his magic but what could he have done the last couple of years and the years coming...


He never really managed to convincingly beat Heidfeld.

It's a bit like what I was discussing recently in another thread. People always say Montoya is better than Ralf Schumacher. Why? Why why why why why?

And there is no why, in either case, that I can see.

If I was asked to name a driver better than Nick Heidfeld and Ralf Schumacher I would say, Alonso, Michael, Seb, Kimi and a few others. I would not say Kubica. I know it's sad he had his accident, but for me he is not proven as a great driver, only a good one.


Ralf only outscored Montoya in 2001 (which was JPM's rookie season), the other 3 seasons Montoya had the upper hand, if you add up the points they scored when together at Williams, Montoya wins again too. Ralf won 6 times, JPM 4 times. JPM finished 3d in the WDC twice, Ralf 4th twice as best. If only victories matter than Ralf is better but I think the other stats should not be neglected. Ralf won 3 times when JPM was a rookie. JPM wins hands down I think.


Ralf was ahead in the WDC in 2003 until 6 races to go, those last 6 in which he hardly scored any points. Embarking on a littany of mistakes as well as an unfortunate crash in Monza, he went off and damaged the car in Silverstone while doing quite well, crashed at the first corner in Germany (a little unlucky perhaps but if anyone was to blame it was him), got a terrible start, then got stuck in traffic and then mini-spun in Hungary after being super fast all weekend, missed Monza due to concussion, ran P2 in Indy and crashed (Raikkonen had him under control until then), started at the back after wet quali in Suzuka, again after being the fastest thing all weekend, and collided and spun while fighting with his brother and the Toyotas for the minor points positions.

In none of those races was he slower than Montoya. However he spun out twice (Silverstone and Indy), had a first corner crash in Germany that could have been avoided, had a mini-spin in Hungary that didn't cost much, and then was just unlucky in Japan and Italy.

Montoya made mistakes in other seasons. I think Montoya is the more consistent racer (more points), while Ralf has the slightly better ultimate speed when he's on it (ahead in quali and race wins). Ralf had a touch of the negative attributes of drivers like Hakkinen and Trulli attached to him, which drivers like Michael and Montoya and Raikkonen didn't have.

Finished ahead while both finished Montoya leads by one, incidentally, over the four seasons.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:58 am 
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mcdo wrote:
Eva09 wrote:
HulkStrong wrote:
Kubica. He showed us his magic but what could he have done the last couple of years and the years coming...


He never really managed to convincingly beat Heidfeld.

It's a bit like what I was discussing recently in another thread. People always say Montoya is better than Ralf Schumacher. Why? Why why why why why?

And there is no why, in either case, that I can see.

If I was asked to name a driver better than Nick Heidfeld and Ralf Schumacher I would say, Alonso, Michael, Seb, Kimi and a few others. I would not say Kubica. I know it's sad he had his accident, but for me he is not proven as a great driver, only a good one.

Here's my repsonse to a similar question from a different thread:
mcdo wrote:
I don't know why people get so hung up on teammate battles. It's a circular debate that more or less can't be resolved. (Alonso was beaten by Hamilton who was beaten by Button who was beaten by Fisichella who was beaten by Alonso who was beaten by Trulli who was beaten by Kovalainen who was beaten by Hamilton and so on).

Look at the multitude of factors at play throughout the seasons. Patterns start to emerge as to who is the real deal and who is simply a journeyman.

Occasionally you may get a false reading i.e. Giancarlo Fisichella often displayed the characteristics of a driver that just needed his big break to succeed. He got his big break and couldn't live up to the task.

Just watching Kubica drive I felt like I was watching the real deal. And I have always felt that if Kubica and Heidfeld were teammates in a car good enough for a title, Kubica would have come out on top. And I feel it's a shame that we'll never find out if he really was as good as many believed he was.

Anyway I always thought quite highly of Heidfeld. Mr. Consistency. A reliable pair of hands to keep collecting the points. Got a dealt a raw deal by a number of teams (McLaren, Merc, Renault). I would have loved to have seen Heidfeld up against Rosberg in the Merc, a driver that hasn't set my world alight like he has many others.

You can apply much of the same logic to Montoya/Ralf.


The difference with Montoya/Ralf I suppose is that when the fast BMW came along in 2008, Heidfeld was very consistent but Kubica seemed to have better ultimate speed. When the fast Williams BMW came along in 2003, Ralf took it closer to the limit than Montoya in terms of speed but made many mistakes.

One advantage that lies with Heidfeld is that unlike Ralf (who beat his teammate in 5 out of 10 full seasons), he has mostly beaten his teammates, in a remarkable 7 out of 9 full seasons.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:10 pm 
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SchumieRules wrote:
DrG wrote:
SchumieRules wrote:
funkymonkey wrote:
Kubica > Hakkinen > Davidson in that order.

Hakkinen is second only because he had his go in top team. He won WDCs, and mostly because he wanted to retire. Kubica was almost destined to go to top team or have top 3 car to drive had he stayed with same team. Really gutted for him.


I would include Hakkinen myself, but Hakkinen didn't lose his seat. He retired himself. I can't say that he should deserve a second chance as he was wronged, like some other drivers

The thing is though, this thread is about which drivers people would like to see make a come back or have made a comeback not drivers who should get a second chance. There is a huge difference & my answer would be totally different :D


Technicality surely, but Amon talked about drivers who lost their seat in the OP, so I wouldn't include Hakkinen there.

Anyway, it's trivial

:D Agreed especially as someone has mentioned Sebastian Bourdais, who I had forgotten about &, if he came back to F1 it would be more of a second chance than a comeback :D . I think the way he was treated at Toro Rosso was despicable & that he deserved better, however, if he hadn't been fired I wouldn't have had the pleasure of watching him race in V8 Supercars with Jamie Whincup at the Gold Coast for the last few years , & that would have been a shame cause he has been awesome :D


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:16 pm 
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Eva09 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Eva09 wrote:
HulkStrong wrote:
Kubica. He showed us his magic but what could he have done the last couple of years and the years coming...


He never really managed to convincingly beat Heidfeld.

It's a bit like what I was discussing recently in another thread. People always say Montoya is better than Ralf Schumacher. Why? Why why why why why?

And there is no why, in either case, that I can see.

If I was asked to name a driver better than Nick Heidfeld and Ralf Schumacher I would say, Alonso, Michael, Seb, Kimi and a few others. I would not say Kubica. I know it's sad he had his accident, but for me he is not proven as a great driver, only a good one.

Here's my repsonse to a similar question from a different thread:
mcdo wrote:
I don't know why people get so hung up on teammate battles. It's a circular debate that more or less can't be resolved. (Alonso was beaten by Hamilton who was beaten by Button who was beaten by Fisichella who was beaten by Alonso who was beaten by Trulli who was beaten by Kovalainen who was beaten by Hamilton and so on).

Look at the multitude of factors at play throughout the seasons. Patterns start to emerge as to who is the real deal and who is simply a journeyman.

Occasionally you may get a false reading i.e. Giancarlo Fisichella often displayed the characteristics of a driver that just needed his big break to succeed. He got his big break and couldn't live up to the task.

Just watching Kubica drive I felt like I was watching the real deal. And I have always felt that if Kubica and Heidfeld were teammates in a car good enough for a title, Kubica would have come out on top. And I feel it's a shame that we'll never find out if he really was as good as many believed he was.

Anyway I always thought quite highly of Heidfeld. Mr. Consistency. A reliable pair of hands to keep collecting the points. Got a dealt a raw deal by a number of teams (McLaren, Merc, Renault). I would have loved to have seen Heidfeld up against Rosberg in the Merc, a driver that hasn't set my world alight like he has many others.

You can apply much of the same logic to Montoya/Ralf.


The difference with Montoya/Ralf I suppose is that when the fast BMW came along in 2008, Heidfeld was very consistent but Kubica seemed to have better ultimate speed. When the fast Williams BMW came along in 2003, Ralf took it closer to the limit than Montoya in terms of speed but made many mistakes.

One advantage that lies with Heidfeld is that unlike Ralf (who beat his teammate in 5 out of 10 full seasons), he has mostly beaten his teammates, in a remarkable 7 out of 9 full seasons.


Especially when this is his list of team mates:
Alesi
Raikkonen
Frentzen
Massa
Pantano
Glock
Webber
Villenueve
Kubica
Kobayashi
Petrov


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:18 pm 
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Eva09 wrote:
The difference with Montoya/Ralf I suppose is that when the fast BMW came along in 2008, Heidfeld was very consistent but Kubica seemed to have better ultimate speed. When the fast Williams BMW came along in 2003, Ralf took it closer to the limit than Montoya in terms of speed but made many mistakes.

It's all part of the package though. Ralf made his own mistakes.
I think Grosjean took last year's Lotus closer to the limit than Raikkonen did but does anybody on earth think Grosjean was the better driver?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:09 pm 
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QUICK NICK !!
We miss ya.

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-"No. There is no fun in germany"

That was a fast, consistent, down-to-earth, quiet, disciplined driver. And a master of overtaking.

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