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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:46 am 
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/43904342


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:10 pm 
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I believe Tim Goss is the guy that said that McLaren had the fastest car during the Hamilton/Button years and that the drivers were under performing, it wouldn't surprise me if he's not one of the key guys within the team saying that McLaren had the fastest car last year if not for the Honda engine, now it seems that the people in charge have realised that they have been pedaled false information?

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:14 pm 
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So, Tim Goss was the one who got tiddled up and mouthy on the flight back from Oz then?


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:16 pm 
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TheDazster wrote:
So, Tim Goss was the one who got tiddled up and mouthy on the flight back from Oz then?

You come forward with that like everyone knows, please tell more. :)

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2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 9th

Win: Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:21 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
TheDazster wrote:
So, Tim Goss was the one who got tiddled up and mouthy on the flight back from Oz then?

You come forward with that like everyone knows, please tell more. :)


Was a snippet at the end of one of Joe Sawards notebooks after the Albert Park race. Not conclusive, obviously.

Quote:
I also have a rhetorical question: what do you think would happen if an F1 technical director became rather "tired and emotional" (as Private Eye used to say) on a flight home from Australia (while in team travel gear), and was to cause trouble on the plane, including making rude remarks about his team principal - to the man himself. I guess such a thing would be a firing offence, wouldn't it?


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:54 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
I believe Tim Goss is the guy that said that McLaren had the fastest car during the Hamilton/Button years and that the drivers were under performing, it wouldn't surprise me if he's not one of the key guys within the team saying that McLaren had the fastest car last year if not for the Honda engine, now it seems that the people in charge have realised that they have been pedaled false information?

That's quite a deductive leap you've got going there?


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:55 pm 
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TheDazster wrote:
pokerman wrote:
TheDazster wrote:
So, Tim Goss was the one who got tiddled up and mouthy on the flight back from Oz then?

You come forward with that like everyone knows, please tell more. :)


Was a snippet at the end of one of Joe Sawards notebooks after the Albert Park race. Not conclusive, obviously.

Quote:
I also have a rhetorical question: what do you think would happen if an F1 technical director became rather "tired and emotional" (as Private Eye used to say) on a flight home from Australia (while in team travel gear), and was to cause trouble on the plane, including making rude remarks about his team principal - to the man himself. I guess such a thing would be a firing offence, wouldn't it?

First I've heard of it, but seems more than a little coincidental!


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 1:13 pm 
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https://www.motorsportweek.com/joesaward/id/00191


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 1:45 pm 
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TheDazster wrote:
pokerman wrote:
TheDazster wrote:
So, Tim Goss was the one who got tiddled up and mouthy on the flight back from Oz then?

You come forward with that like everyone knows, please tell more. :)


Was a snippet at the end of one of Joe Sawards notebooks after the Albert Park race. Not conclusive, obviously.

Quote:
I also have a rhetorical question: what do you think would happen if an F1 technical director became rather "tired and emotional" (as Private Eye used to say) on a flight home from Australia (while in team travel gear), and was to cause trouble on the plane, including making rude remarks about his team principal - to the man himself. I guess such a thing would be a firing offence, wouldn't it?

Interesting. :thumbup:

_________________
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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 9th

Win: Abu Dhabi 2017
Podium: 2nd Barcelona 2018 and Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 1:52 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I believe Tim Goss is the guy that said that McLaren had the fastest car during the Hamilton/Button years and that the drivers were under performing, it wouldn't surprise me if he's not one of the key guys within the team saying that McLaren had the fastest car last year if not for the Honda engine, now it seems that the people in charge have realised that they have been pedaled false information?

That's quite a deductive leap you've got going there?

Did you read the article that serious questions have been asked about how they have misinterpreted their competitiveness and who has been removed from his position?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 9th

Win: Abu Dhabi 2017
Podium: 2nd Barcelona 2018 and Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 3:46 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I believe Tim Goss is the guy that said that McLaren had the fastest car during the Hamilton/Button years and that the drivers were under performing, it wouldn't surprise me if he's not one of the key guys within the team saying that McLaren had the fastest car last year if not for the Honda engine, now it seems that the people in charge have realised that they have been pedaled false information?

That's quite a deductive leap you've got going there?

Did you read the article that serious questions have been asked about how they have misinterpreted their competitiveness and who has been removed from his position?

I doubt that any team bases their evaluation on their car's performance on the say-so of anybody, no matter how highly placed. I should imagine that they have reams of data giving them that info. I don't think false information comes into it


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 4:27 pm 
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It was about time heads started to roll at mclaren. I expect bouiller to be gone soon too.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:57 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
It was about time heads started to roll at mclaren. I expect bouiller to be gone soon too.


Echo your views that heads needed moving on and fresh blood in at McLaren....only problem is who have they got to replace him as they've lost a lot of experience over last few seasons, or if they go down the route of pursuing someone from another team firstly who, secondly they've got to want to join McLaren which is not as attractive as it once was (I'm a McLaren fan so pains me to say that) and thirdly if they can persuade someone to join them it certainly won't be until at least next season!


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 12:39 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I believe Tim Goss is the guy that said that McLaren had the fastest car during the Hamilton/Button years and that the drivers were under performing, it wouldn't surprise me if he's not one of the key guys within the team saying that McLaren had the fastest car last year if not for the Honda engine, now it seems that the people in charge have realised that they have been pedaled false information?

That's quite a deductive leap you've got going there?

Did you read the article that serious questions have been asked about how they have misinterpreted their competitiveness and who has been removed from his position?

I doubt that any team bases their evaluation on their car's performance on the say-so of anybody, no matter how highly placed. I should imagine that they have reams of data giving them that info. I don't think false information comes into it

You think somebody like Zack Brown or the owners are trawling through reams of data or someone highly placed who understands such things actually informs them of the state of play?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 9th

Win: Abu Dhabi 2017
Podium: 2nd Barcelona 2018 and Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 12:43 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 22140
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I believe Tim Goss is the guy that said that McLaren had the fastest car during the Hamilton/Button years and that the drivers were under performing, it wouldn't surprise me if he's not one of the key guys within the team saying that McLaren had the fastest car last year if not for the Honda engine, now it seems that the people in charge have realised that they have been pedaled false information?

That's quite a deductive leap you've got going there?

Did you read the article that serious questions have been asked about how they have misinterpreted their competitiveness and who has been removed from his position?

I doubt that any team bases their evaluation on their car's performance on the say-so of anybody, no matter how highly placed. I should imagine that they have reams of data giving them that info. I don't think false information comes into it

You think somebody like Zack Brown or the owners are trawling through reams of data or someone highly placed who understands such things actually informs them of the state of play?

I think no team has a single individual looking over the data and making these kind of determinations. Do you really think that a team would have a single person able to pull the wool over everybody's eyes like that, and no-one would raise questions? In this information-rich age?


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 7:32 am 
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Hmm, Joe Saward says it wasn’t Goss that was “tired and emotional”...


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:14 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
https://www.motorsportweek.com/joesaward/id/00191

Thanks for the article, interesting in several ways.
I like this bit in which he talks about the aero issue with the cars.

The problem with this idea is that it is not really the fault of the circuit - except perhaps in the case of Monaco - as there were 25 or more overtaking moves in Australia in 2016, before the new F1 rules, with increased downforce, were introduced last year.

Since then the number of overtakes has reduced significantly. My lap chart from Melbourne features six overtaking moves that were not on the first lap or were not caused by an event such as a spin. Thus, it is safe to conclude that the problem lies not in the circuits, but rather in the design of the cars. They cannot run nose-to-tail because of the delicate nature of the aerodynamics of the front wings which gets all messed up by a car disrupting the air ahead. It is like driving into a wall of air. So, what really needs to be changed is the front wings on the F1 cars, but no-one wants to do that because otherwise a bunch of aerodynamicists would have nothing to fiddle with and would have to do something else (make sandwiches, dig ditches, flip burgers etc). Given that aero is often seen as the key element to success in F1 (although engines are currently quite important), the urge to protect aerodynamicists is strong. As previously mentioned we will hear about the Formula One group's plans for the future very shortly and one hopes that the technical matters will be addressed at this point.

(excerpt from motorsportweek.com/joesaward article linked above by siao7)


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:42 pm 
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all that winter boasting is getting smacked across the face by reality


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:11 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 25286
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
That's quite a deductive leap you've got going there?

Did you read the article that serious questions have been asked about how they have misinterpreted their competitiveness and who has been removed from his position?

I doubt that any team bases their evaluation on their car's performance on the say-so of anybody, no matter how highly placed. I should imagine that they have reams of data giving them that info. I don't think false information comes into it

You think somebody like Zack Brown or the owners are trawling through reams of data or someone highly placed who understands such things actually informs them of the state of play?

I think no team has a single individual looking over the data and making these kind of determinations. Do you really think that a team would have a single person able to pull the wool over everybody's eyes like that, and no-one would raise questions? In this information-rich age?

Well it's either gross incompetence or people perhaps looking to protect their jobs?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 9th

Win: Abu Dhabi 2017
Podium: 2nd Barcelona 2018 and Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:12 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 25286
jimmyj wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
https://www.motorsportweek.com/joesaward/id/00191

Thanks for the article, interesting in several ways.
I like this bit in which he talks about the aero issue with the cars.

The problem with this idea is that it is not really the fault of the circuit - except perhaps in the case of Monaco - as there were 25 or more overtaking moves in Australia in 2016, before the new F1 rules, with increased downforce, were introduced last year.

Since then the number of overtakes has reduced significantly. My lap chart from Melbourne features six overtaking moves that were not on the first lap or were not caused by an event such as a spin. Thus, it is safe to conclude that the problem lies not in the circuits, but rather in the design of the cars. They cannot run nose-to-tail because of the delicate nature of the aerodynamics of the front wings which gets all messed up by a car disrupting the air ahead. It is like driving into a wall of air. So, what really needs to be changed is the front wings on the F1 cars, but no-one wants to do that because otherwise a bunch of aerodynamicists would have nothing to fiddle with and would have to do something else (make sandwiches, dig ditches, flip burgers etc). Given that aero is often seen as the key element to success in F1 (although engines are currently quite important), the urge to protect aerodynamicists is strong. As previously mentioned we will hear about the Formula One group's plans for the future very shortly and one hopes that the technical matters will be addressed at this point.

(excerpt from motorsportweek.com/joesaward article linked above by siao7)

Such things were predicted for the cars in 2016.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 9th

Win: Abu Dhabi 2017
Podium: 2nd Barcelona 2018 and Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:04 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 22140
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Did you read the article that serious questions have been asked about how they have misinterpreted their competitiveness and who has been removed from his position?

I doubt that any team bases their evaluation on their car's performance on the say-so of anybody, no matter how highly placed. I should imagine that they have reams of data giving them that info. I don't think false information comes into it

You think somebody like Zack Brown or the owners are trawling through reams of data or someone highly placed who understands such things actually informs them of the state of play?

I think no team has a single individual looking over the data and making these kind of determinations. Do you really think that a team would have a single person able to pull the wool over everybody's eyes like that, and no-one would raise questions? In this information-rich age?

Well it's either gross incompetence or people perhaps looking to protect their jobs?

Perhaps, if etc. It's unlikely though that one person could pull the wool over anybody's eyes, as you suggested


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