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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:39 pm 
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https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13734 ... l-for-2012


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:47 pm 
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Wow, what could it have been....


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:20 pm 
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I know it's all hypothetical but Vettel would probably have had an easier championship battle in 2012 had Kubica not had his accident. Kubica would probably have taken more points away from Alonso than Massa did and would have been close with Alonso in performance so wouldn't have been made to play second fiddle so early on.

Such a shame about the accident, would have been great to see him drive for a top team.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:20 pm 
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That's an eternal regret right there, real sliding doors moment. That said, does anyone really think he would have done any better than Alonso managed? Could well have ended up sharing more of those points rather than the one sided way things actually went.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:33 pm 
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He could have potentially pip Webber and take the WCC for Ferrari to start with. Massa was often dreadful in quali, not making it to Q3. I believe that Kubica would have done a better job


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:52 pm 
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I doubt that Kubica was ever better than Massa.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:20 pm 
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"the team I was going to drive for next year, I was not allowed to rally"

Shame that Renault didn't have that same policy.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:22 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
I doubt that Kubica was ever better than Massa.


Kubica was far superior to Massa. The former only finished 8 points behind the latter, despite one driving a Renault and the other a Ferrari. If Massa couldn't beat Fisichella, Bottas or Heidfeld, he was never going to beat Kubica.

Such a shame. 2012 was one of the best years I can remember, the only thing I can think of which could have made it better would be if 2 of the hottest seats on the grid weren't being wasted by Grosjean and Massa. To have seen all 10 drivers from Ferrari, Red Bull, McLaren, Lotus and Merc fighting for the win (with the occasional Perez, Kobayashi, Pastor and Hulk thrown in) would have been quite something.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:31 pm 
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Banana Man wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
I doubt that Kubica was ever better than Massa.


Kubica was far superior to Massa. The former only finished 8 points behind the latter, despite one driving a Renault and the other a Ferrari. If Massa couldn't beat Fisichella, Bottas or Heidfeld, he was never going to beat Kubica.

Such a shame. 2012 was one of the best years I can remember, the only thing I can think of which could have made it better would be if 2 of the hottest seats on the grid weren't being wasted by Grosjean and Massa. To have seen all 10 drivers from Ferrari, Red Bull, McLaren, Lotus and Merc fighting for the win (with the occasional Perez, Kobayashi, Pastor and Hulk thrown in) would have been quite something.


I disagree. We don't know that Kubica was superior to Massa at all, much less "far superior". There simply not a big enough Kubica history to make that claim in my opinion. Perhaps in time he would have been... We just don't know.

Also, I believe that Massa is very much under-appreciated in the forum, but that has been the subject of many a "vigorous" forum debate before. To say that Ferrari's seat was wasted on Massa is... In my opinion... Asinine.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:02 pm 
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Banana Man wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
I doubt that Kubica was ever better than Massa.


Kubica was far superior to Massa. The former only finished 8 points behind the latter, despite one driving a Renault and the other a Ferrari. If Massa couldn't beat Fisichella, Bottas or Heidfeld, he was never going to beat Kubica.

Such a shame. 2012 was one of the best years I can remember, the only thing I can think of which could have made it better would be if 2 of the hottest seats on the grid weren't being wasted by Grosjean and Massa. To have seen all 10 drivers from Ferrari, Red Bull, McLaren, Lotus and Merc fighting for the win (with the occasional Perez, Kobayashi, Pastor and Hulk thrown in) would have been quite something.


Well, Kubica was not really superior to Heidfeld, either.

Kubica, Massa, Räikkönen - that is about the same level: very good, but not excellent.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:04 pm 
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Was this not the same year Hulk had a contract that was awaiting a signature from Ferrari?


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:11 am 
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Kubica I think was overrated. Heidfeld beat him in the two of the three seasons they raced together. Kubica I think would have challenged Alonso in 2012 and helped take points off of Alonso especially since he struggled in qualifying near the end of 2012.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:15 am 
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Rockie wrote:
Was this not the same year Hulk had a contract that was awaiting a signature from Ferrari?


Don't think it would have been for 2012 since Hulkenburg did not race in 2011 and don't think Ferrari would have put a driver who was out of the sport for a year.

Either it was for 2013, before Massa had an upturn in performance (Then signed for Sauber) or for 2014 before Kimi had a falling out with Lotus over not being paid. If I recall correctly, Ferrari blocked Hulkenburg to race for Lotus to replace Kimi in the final two races.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:12 am 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Banana Man wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
I doubt that Kubica was ever better than Massa.


Kubica was far superior to Massa. The former only finished 8 points behind the latter, despite one driving a Renault and the other a Ferrari. If Massa couldn't beat Fisichella, Bottas or Heidfeld, he was never going to beat Kubica.

Such a shame. 2012 was one of the best years I can remember, the only thing I can think of which could have made it better would be if 2 of the hottest seats on the grid weren't being wasted by Grosjean and Massa. To have seen all 10 drivers from Ferrari, Red Bull, McLaren, Lotus and Merc fighting for the win (with the occasional Perez, Kobayashi, Pastor and Hulk thrown in) would have been quite something.


Well, Kubica was not really superior to Heidfeld, either.

Kubica, Massa, Räikkönen - that is about the same level: very good, but not excellent.


We will never know, sadly. Kubica had shown great speed in general. Massa struggled a lot in 2012, regularly missing Q3 and even finishing outside the points, far too often; it wasn't a good year for him. This doesn't mean that Kubica would automatically be better. Only a what if...


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:13 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Banana Man wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
I doubt that Kubica was ever better than Massa.


Kubica was far superior to Massa. The former only finished 8 points behind the latter, despite one driving a Renault and the other a Ferrari. If Massa couldn't beat Fisichella, Bottas or Heidfeld, he was never going to beat Kubica.

Such a shame. 2012 was one of the best years I can remember, the only thing I can think of which could have made it better would be if 2 of the hottest seats on the grid weren't being wasted by Grosjean and Massa. To have seen all 10 drivers from Ferrari, Red Bull, McLaren, Lotus and Merc fighting for the win (with the occasional Perez, Kobayashi, Pastor and Hulk thrown in) would have been quite something.


Well, Kubica was not really superior to Heidfeld, either.

Kubica, Massa, Räikkönen - that is about the same level: very good, but not excellent.


We will never know, sadly. Kubica had shown great speed in general. Massa struggled a lot in 2012, regularly missing Q3 and even finishing outside the points, far too often; it wasn't a good year for him. This doesn't mean that Kubica would automatically be better. Only a what if...


Massa's "struggles" are more a reflection of the quality of the Ferrari that year. I really do not see how Kubica could have done significantly better, also given that Massa always was a good qualifyer.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:24 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Banana Man wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
I doubt that Kubica was ever better than Massa.


Kubica was far superior to Massa. The former only finished 8 points behind the latter, despite one driving a Renault and the other a Ferrari. If Massa couldn't beat Fisichella, Bottas or Heidfeld, he was never going to beat Kubica.

Such a shame. 2012 was one of the best years I can remember, the only thing I can think of which could have made it better would be if 2 of the hottest seats on the grid weren't being wasted by Grosjean and Massa. To have seen all 10 drivers from Ferrari, Red Bull, McLaren, Lotus and Merc fighting for the win (with the occasional Perez, Kobayashi, Pastor and Hulk thrown in) would have been quite something.


Well, Kubica was not really superior to Heidfeld, either.

Kubica, Massa, Räikkönen - that is about the same level: very good, but not excellent.


We will never know, sadly. Kubica had shown great speed in general. Massa struggled a lot in 2012, regularly missing Q3 and even finishing outside the points, far too often; it wasn't a good year for him. This doesn't mean that Kubica would automatically be better. Only a what if...


Tbf to Massa he regularly missed Q3 because that's sort of where the car was a lot of the time.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:51 am 
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Would Kubica have been able to improve during his time at Ferrari and gone from being a good to a very good / great driver?


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:45 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Banana Man wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
I doubt that Kubica was ever better than Massa.


Kubica was far superior to Massa. The former only finished 8 points behind the latter, despite one driving a Renault and the other a Ferrari. If Massa couldn't beat Fisichella, Bottas or Heidfeld, he was never going to beat Kubica.

Such a shame. 2012 was one of the best years I can remember, the only thing I can think of which could have made it better would be if 2 of the hottest seats on the grid weren't being wasted by Grosjean and Massa. To have seen all 10 drivers from Ferrari, Red Bull, McLaren, Lotus and Merc fighting for the win (with the occasional Perez, Kobayashi, Pastor and Hulk thrown in) would have been quite something.


Well, Kubica was not really superior to Heidfeld, either.

Kubica, Massa, Räikkönen - that is about the same level: very good, but not excellent.


We will never know, sadly. Kubica had shown great speed in general. Massa struggled a lot in 2012, regularly missing Q3 and even finishing outside the points, far too often; it wasn't a good year for him. This doesn't mean that Kubica would automatically be better. Only a what if...


Tbf to Massa he regularly missed Q3 because that's sort of where the car was a lot of the time.


That's true and I'm not objecting this. Alonso was far superior to Massa in qualifying though, Massa only managed to outqualify Alonso a couple of times at the end of that season. I'm sure Kubica would have struggled to adjust to a new team, certainly with a so and so car, but I think that he'd do ok in Ferrari. Just a hunch, I can't prove it of course.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:24 pm 
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This all comes from the recent "Beyond the grid" podcast btw, it's on various platforms (I listen on Spotify for example) but here's the YouTube link.

https://youtu.be/ynG1RQLmyP8

Well worth the listen.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:58 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Banana Man wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
I doubt that Kubica was ever better than Massa.


Kubica was far superior to Massa. The former only finished 8 points behind the latter, despite one driving a Renault and the other a Ferrari. If Massa couldn't beat Fisichella, Bottas or Heidfeld, he was never going to beat Kubica.

Such a shame. 2012 was one of the best years I can remember, the only thing I can think of which could have made it better would be if 2 of the hottest seats on the grid weren't being wasted by Grosjean and Massa. To have seen all 10 drivers from Ferrari, Red Bull, McLaren, Lotus and Merc fighting for the win (with the occasional Perez, Kobayashi, Pastor and Hulk thrown in) would have been quite something.


Well, Kubica was not really superior to Heidfeld, either.

Kubica, Massa, Räikkönen - that is about the same level: very good, but not excellent.


We will never know, sadly. Kubica had shown great speed in general. Massa struggled a lot in 2012, regularly missing Q3 and even finishing outside the points, far too often; it wasn't a good year for him. This doesn't mean that Kubica would automatically be better. Only a what if...


Massa's "struggles" are more a reflection of the quality of the Ferrari that year. I really do not see how Kubica could have done significantly better, also given that Massa always was a good qualifyer.


Bingo. Any greater performance over Massa from Kubica in the first half of the year would depend on how he coped with rear instability as the coanda didn't work on the Ferrari until Spain. I can't recall what weaknesses Kubica had in car handling, most drivers have something they can't cope with and for Massa it was rear instability.

If Bob masters that then he would do better than Massa in the first part of the year sure but after that Massa was mostly pretty good. Until the rear went again with the Monaco upgrade in 2013. And he was better than Bottas until the Williams lost rear stability in the second half of 2015.

Massa didn't forget how to drive post accident, the Ferrari's with their broken wimd tunnel were just mostly poor handling cars and showed his weaknesses up. Those car issues and wind tunnel issues remain until late 2012 whoever's driving them so it comes down to how Bob would deal with them.

I think he'd do slightly better overall but it wouldn't necessarily hurt Alonso's chances as Massa didn't take enough points of Alonso's rivals either so Bob beating Seb a few times is just as likely as him beating Alonso. Might hurt but might not, hard to say.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:40 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Banana Man wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
I doubt that Kubica was ever better than Massa.


Kubica was far superior to Massa. The former only finished 8 points behind the latter, despite one driving a Renault and the other a Ferrari. If Massa couldn't beat Fisichella, Bottas or Heidfeld, he was never going to beat Kubica.

Such a shame. 2012 was one of the best years I can remember, the only thing I can think of which could have made it better would be if 2 of the hottest seats on the grid weren't being wasted by Grosjean and Massa. To have seen all 10 drivers from Ferrari, Red Bull, McLaren, Lotus and Merc fighting for the win (with the occasional Perez, Kobayashi, Pastor and Hulk thrown in) would have been quite something.


Well, Kubica was not really superior to Heidfeld, either.

Kubica, Massa, Räikkönen - that is about the same level: very good, but not excellent.


We will never know, sadly. Kubica had shown great speed in general. Massa struggled a lot in 2012, regularly missing Q3 and even finishing outside the points, far too often; it wasn't a good year for him. This doesn't mean that Kubica would automatically be better. Only a what if...


Whilst his team mate was fighting for a Championship he might well have won were it not for Spa. Massa didn't get close to Alonso for 4 years, not just 2012.

Just think of the challenging wet/dry races from 2010

Melbourne - Kubica 2nd, beats both Ferraris
China - Kubica 5th, just behind Alonso. Massa half a minute behind in 9th.
Spa - Kubica 3rd, could have won but for a pit stop error. Alonso crashed, Massa 4th
Korea - Alonso wins, Massa 30 seconds behind in 3rd, Kubica 17 seconds behind in 5th.

He was a top driver.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:38 am 
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Blake wrote:
Banana Man wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
I doubt that Kubica was ever better than Massa.


Kubica was far superior to Massa. The former only finished 8 points behind the latter, despite one driving a Renault and the other a Ferrari. If Massa couldn't beat Fisichella, Bottas or Heidfeld, he was never going to beat Kubica.

Such a shame. 2012 was one of the best years I can remember, the only thing I can think of which could have made it better would be if 2 of the hottest seats on the grid weren't being wasted by Grosjean and Massa. To have seen all 10 drivers from Ferrari, Red Bull, McLaren, Lotus and Merc fighting for the win (with the occasional Perez, Kobayashi, Pastor and Hulk thrown in) would have been quite something.


I disagree. We don't know that Kubica was superior to Massa at all, much less "far superior". There simply not a big enough Kubica history to make that claim in my opinion. Perhaps in time he would have been... We just don't know.

Also, I believe that Massa is very much under-appreciated in the forum, but that has been the subject of many a "vigorous" forum debate before. To say that Ferrari's seat was wasted on Massa is... In my opinion... Asinine.

Agree 100%!!!

And to add to it, Ferrari stated publicly that Massa was the best and most dynamic starter they've had since Michael.
This mind you was under di Montezemelo's reign, and while I don't much like the man, He wasn't int the business of saying things for the hell of it and a statement that bold would not have been allowed to be aired publicly had it not been true. People simply need to get off the Massa bash wagon.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:03 am 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Blake wrote:
Banana Man wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
I doubt that Kubica was ever better than Massa.


Kubica was far superior to Massa. The former only finished 8 points behind the latter, despite one driving a Renault and the other a Ferrari. If Massa couldn't beat Fisichella, Bottas or Heidfeld, he was never going to beat Kubica.

Such a shame. 2012 was one of the best years I can remember, the only thing I can think of which could have made it better would be if 2 of the hottest seats on the grid weren't being wasted by Grosjean and Massa. To have seen all 10 drivers from Ferrari, Red Bull, McLaren, Lotus and Merc fighting for the win (with the occasional Perez, Kobayashi, Pastor and Hulk thrown in) would have been quite something.


I disagree. We don't know that Kubica was superior to Massa at all, much less "far superior". There simply not a big enough Kubica history to make that claim in my opinion. Perhaps in time he would have been... We just don't know.

Also, I believe that Massa is very much under-appreciated in the forum, but that has been the subject of many a "vigorous" forum debate before. To say that Ferrari's seat was wasted on Massa is... In my opinion... Asinine.

Agree 100%!!!

And to add to it, Ferrari stated publicly that Massa was the best and most dynamic starter they've had since Michael.
This mind you was under di Montezemelo's reign, and while I don't much like the man, He wasn't int the business of saying things for the hell of it and a statement that bold would not have been allowed to be aired publicly had it not been true. People simply need to get off the Massa bash wagon.


Seriously, bash wagon? Just because people think that Kubica may have done better than him? Bit harsh isn't it?

And to think that I like Massa and hold him in high regard...


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:00 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Blake wrote:
Banana Man wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
I doubt that Kubica was ever better than Massa.


Kubica was far superior to Massa. The former only finished 8 points behind the latter, despite one driving a Renault and the other a Ferrari. If Massa couldn't beat Fisichella, Bottas or Heidfeld, he was never going to beat Kubica.

Such a shame. 2012 was one of the best years I can remember, the only thing I can think of which could have made it better would be if 2 of the hottest seats on the grid weren't being wasted by Grosjean and Massa. To have seen all 10 drivers from Ferrari, Red Bull, McLaren, Lotus and Merc fighting for the win (with the occasional Perez, Kobayashi, Pastor and Hulk thrown in) would have been quite something.


I disagree. We don't know that Kubica was superior to Massa at all, much less "far superior". There simply not a big enough Kubica history to make that claim in my opinion. Perhaps in time he would have been... We just don't know.

Also, I believe that Massa is very much under-appreciated in the forum, but that has been the subject of many a "vigorous" forum debate before. To say that Ferrari's seat was wasted on Massa is... In my opinion... Asinine.

Agree 100%!!!

And to add to it, Ferrari stated publicly that Massa was the best and most dynamic starter they've had since Michael.
This mind you was under di Montezemelo's reign, and while I don't much like the man, He wasn't int the business of saying things for the hell of it and a statement that bold would not have been allowed to be aired publicly had it not been true. People simply need to get off the Massa bash wagon.

I don't see how anyone can look back on Massa's career and consider him one of the better drivers of the time, unless 1) they view the sport through Ferrari-tinted spectacles or 2) they subscribe to the Murray Walker school of thought where "well they're ALL great!" He wasn't even fast enough to be an effective number 2 driver, and provided Alonso very little support in his Ferrari title challenge years 2010 (Hockenheim aside!) or 2012. Alonso, as he has done with a number of drivers, showed Massa up for what he was: in the context of the F1 field, distinctly average. I've every reason to believe that Kubica would have been a vast improvement, and could have made the difference in the title race by taking more points off Alonso's rivals than Massa did.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:14 pm 
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Massa was beaten by almost every team mate he ever had and he is one of the most bench marked driver in modern times. Anyone with a unbiased eye can see exactly what he was. A decent driver who wasn't as good as most in what would usually described as tier 2.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:09 pm 
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Beaten by Michael Schumaker, Fernando Alonso and two other WDCs, just missed winning the SEC himself by a cruely narrow margin, winner of 11 F1 races, 15 years on the grid, 269 races. Drivers that Mass a teamed with won a total of 11 WDCs! This is a below average driver among the TIER 2 DRIVERS???

Well, mikey, you can call me biased all you want (wouldn't be anything new, would it), but I think Massa is UNDER-rated in this forum. I am not sure why, however. This discussion seems to come up every year, like there is inane need to belittle him. Was he a Schumi? No... But who is? No one is claiming that Filipe Massa was the best, but lower level tier 2? Seriously? I know of one hullava lot of F1 drivers who would loved to have had his career.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:27 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Beaten by Michael Schumaker, Fernando Alonso and two other WDCs, just missed winning the SEC himself by a cruely narrow margin, winner of 11 F1 races, 15 years on the grid, 269 races. Drivers that Mass a teamed with won a total of 11 WDCs! This is a below average driver among the TIER 2 DRIVERS???

Well, mikey, you can call me biased all you want (wouldn't be anything new, would it), but I think Massa is UNDER-rated in this forum. I am not sure why, however. This discussion seems to come up every year, like there is inane need to belittle him. Was he a Schumi? No... But who is? No one is claiming that Filipe Massa was the best, but lower level tier 2? Seriously? I know of one hullava lot of F1 drivers who would loved to have had his career.


Well you are! What do you expect me to do? You're surely not denying this?

Your bias shows immediately in that You've managed to forget he lost to Heidfeld, Fissichella and Bottas as well.

Yes lower end of tier 2 and I would say that's generous. Given Bottas would be placed in tier 2 and Heidfeld and Fissichella barely that.

I don't know why you see that as such a belittlement or insult? That's still good! Reflected in his career stats. As you mention he competed in 269 races. You can't rate him solely on the 18 in 2008. Everything has to be taken into account.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:44 pm 
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Ok. Let's stop tearing Massa and various forum users apart and get it back on topic.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:09 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Blake wrote:
Beaten by Michael Schumaker, Fernando Alonso and two other WDCs, just missed winning the SEC himself by a cruely narrow margin, winner of 11 F1 races, 15 years on the grid, 269 races. Drivers that Mass a teamed with won a total of 11 WDCs! This is a below average driver among the TIER 2 DRIVERS???

Well, mikey, you can call me biased all you want (wouldn't be anything new, would it), but I think Massa is UNDER-rated in this forum. I am not sure why, however. This discussion seems to come up every year, like there is inane need to belittle him. Was he a Schumi? No... But who is? No one is claiming that Filipe Massa was the best, but lower level tier 2? Seriously? I know of one hullava lot of F1 drivers who would loved to have had his career.


Well you are! What do you expect me to do? You're surely not denying this?

Your bias shows immediately in that You've managed to forget he lost to Heidfeld, Fissichella and Bottas as well.

Yes lower end of tier 2 and I would say that's generous. Given Bottas would be placed in tier 2 and Heidfeld and Fissichella barely that.

I don't know why you see that as such a belittlement or insult? That's still good! Reflected in his career stats. As you mention he competed in 269 races. You can't rate him solely on the 18 in 2008. Everything has to be taken into account.


No, mikey, I don't deny that I have biases as opposed to hypocrites who claim to be neutral.... However, even having admitted biases, does not mean that I am incapable of having valid thought.

You choose to make an issue of my bringing up 2008 as though it didn't happen, However, it did happen and for a few years, Massa was in the top tier in F1... Two years earlier, I believe Massa was third in the WDC behind Alonso & Schumi, also a notable achievement even when in a good car. in my "biased" opinion. You look at what Massa accomplished and "generously" relegate him to bottom of Tier 2, or basically just above the bottom tier of drivers over the last 17-18 years, I think that is pure baloney.

Now, I have no doubt that you can come up with all kinds of stats to "support" your claim, just as I have given to support mine. You can't see why I think your rating of Massa as an insult, that pretty much tells the story. Do you honestly think that nearly 2/3s of F1 drivers since 2002 have been better than Filepe Massa? That is what you are saying. I just don't buy it.

You point out say I rate him solely on the basis of 2008 (DEFINITELY not true) and that "everything has to be taken into account"... yet, are YOU taking everything into account, mikey? The accomplishments I listed included much more than just 2008, yet you seemingly are denying them. He didn't win 11 races in 2008, he didn't carve out a successful F1 career of 15 years (16 if you include his year as a Ferrari test driver) in just 2008. I have had this discussion with you before, so I am pretty sure neither of us are going to change our minds, but please don't dismiss my opinion as being irrelevant because of the biases you perceive. I tend to respect most of your posts and agree that you are more neutral than most members of this forum, but sometimes you too show biases... we all do.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:41 am 
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Blake wrote:
You look at what Massa accomplished and "generously" relegate him to bottom of Tier 2, or basically just above the bottom tier of drivers over the last 17-18 years, I think that is pure baloney.

Now, I have no doubt that you can come up with all kinds of stats to "support" your claim, just as I have given to support mine. You can't see why I think your rating of Massa as an insult, that pretty much tells the story. Do you honestly think that nearly 2/3s of F1 drivers since 2002 have been better than Filepe Massa? That is what you are saying. I just don't buy it.

Without getting into whether or not I think Massa was in fact at the bottom of tier two, your statement is only true if Mikeyg123 defines only three tiers of F1 drivers. I personally would enumerate more than that, making a driver in the second tier (at any point in it) above average.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:07 am 
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Blake wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Blake wrote:
Beaten by Michael Schumaker, Fernando Alonso and two other WDCs, just missed winning the SEC himself by a cruely narrow margin, winner of 11 F1 races, 15 years on the grid, 269 races. Drivers that Mass a teamed with won a total of 11 WDCs! This is a below average driver among the TIER 2 DRIVERS???

Well, mikey, you can call me biased all you want (wouldn't be anything new, would it), but I think Massa is UNDER-rated in this forum. I am not sure why, however. This discussion seems to come up every year, like there is inane need to belittle him. Was he a Schumi? No... But who is? No one is claiming that Filipe Massa was the best, but lower level tier 2? Seriously? I know of one hullava lot of F1 drivers who would loved to have had his career.


Well you are! What do you expect me to do? You're surely not denying this?

Your bias shows immediately in that You've managed to forget he lost to Heidfeld, Fissichella and Bottas as well.

Yes lower end of tier 2 and I would say that's generous. Given Bottas would be placed in tier 2 and Heidfeld and Fissichella barely that.

I don't know why you see that as such a belittlement or insult? That's still good! Reflected in his career stats. As you mention he competed in 269 races. You can't rate him solely on the 18 in 2008. Everything has to be taken into account.


No, mikey, I don't deny that I have biases as opposed to hypocrites who claim to be neutral.... However, even having admitted biases, does not mean that I am incapable of having valid thought.

You choose to make an issue of my bringing up 2008 as though it didn't happen, However, it did happen and for a few years, Massa was in the top tier in F1... Two years earlier, I believe Massa was third in the WDC behind Alonso & Schumi, also a notable achievement even when in a good car. in my "biased" opinion. You look at what Massa accomplished and "generously" relegate him to bottom of Tier 2, or basically just above the bottom tier of drivers over the last 17-18 years, I think that is pure baloney.

Now, I have no doubt that you can come up with all kinds of stats to "support" your claim, just as I have given to support mine. You can't see why I think your rating of Massa as an insult, that pretty much tells the story. Do you honestly think that nearly 2/3s of F1 drivers since 2002 have been better than Filepe Massa? That is what you are saying. I just don't buy it.

You point out say I rate him solely on the basis of 2008 (DEFINITELY not true) and that "everything has to be taken into account"... yet, are YOU taking everything into account, mikey? The accomplishments I listed included much more than just 2008, yet you seemingly are denying them. He didn't win 11 races in 2008, he didn't carve out a successful F1 career of 15 years (16 if you include his year as a Ferrari test driver) in just 2008. I have had this discussion with you before, so I am pretty sure neither of us are going to change our minds, but please don't dismiss my opinion as being irrelevant because of the biases you perceive. I tend to respect most of your posts and agree that you are more neutral than most members of this forum, but sometimes you too show biases... we all do.


Aha!

So we may not actually disagree that much you've just assumed I only thin their are 3 tiers when I actually think it breaks down into 4.

Tier 1 - Superstars like Schumacher, Alonso, Hamilton etc
Tier 2 - Good drivers who can win in the right car and take a run at the WDC in the right circumstance - Barrichello, Rosberg, Webber etc
Tier 3 - The Journeymen - Grosjean, Panis, Trulli etc
Tier 4 - Those not good enough - Palmer, Stroll etc

So I hope with that in mind you can see how it's hardly an insult to say I put Massa near the bottom of tier 2.

The reason why I brought up you rating Massa on 2008 alone (which I admit is an exaggeration) is that to believe Massa is as good as you seem to you simply have to be giving 2008 a higher value than 2004, 2006, 2012 or 2016 for example. Because in those seasons he was nowhere near the driver you profess him to be.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:17 am 
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If we're talking about 'tiers' of drivers, I personally break it down a little differently.

1 - Superstars - A different class, multiple WDC - Schumi, Vettel, Alonso, Hakkinen, Senna etc.
2 - Top drivers - Not quite in that top bracket but worth a WDC in the right car - Rosberg, Hill, Montoya, Kimi, Button
3 - Race winners - Not really WDC material but given a decent car will win a few races - Coulthard, Webber, Rubens, Villeneuve, Bottas
4 - The midfield - Most other drivers, many of who could win in a faster car - Hulk, Perez, Sainz,
5 - Pay drivers - Would be nowhere near the grid without their cash - Stroll, Ericsson, Lavaggi, Palmer, Karthikeyan
6 - Grosjean - For once in your life, bring it back with the wheels still attached.

I'd say Kubica was tier 2 whilst Massa was tier 3 06-08, then tier 4 09-13.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:33 am 
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Banana Man wrote:
If we're talking about 'tiers' of drivers, I personally break it down a little differently.

1 - Superstars - A different class, multiple WDC - Schumi, Vettel, Alonso, Hakkinen, Senna etc.
2 - Top drivers - Not quite in that top bracket but worth a WDC in the right car - Rosberg, Hill, Montoya, Kimi, Button
3 - Race winners - Not really WDC material but given a decent car will win a few races - Coulthard, Webber, Rubens, Villeneuve, Bottas
4 - The midfield - Most other drivers, many of who could win in a faster car - Hulk, Perez, Sainz,
5 - Pay drivers - Would be nowhere near the grid without their cash - Stroll, Ericsson, Lavaggi, Palmer, Karthikeyan
6 - Grosjean - For once in your life, bring it back with the wheels still attached.

I'd say Kubica was tier 2 whilst Massa was tier 3 06-08, then tier 4 09-13.


So by that reckoning, Massa was basically 1 corner away from going from a tier 3 to a tier 2 driver & 1997 never happened.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:47 am 
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Blake wrote:
Beaten by Michael Schumaker, Fernando Alonso and two other WDCs, just missed winning the SEC himself by a cruely narrow margin, winner of 11 F1 races, 15 years on the grid, 269 races. Drivers that Mass a teamed with won a total of 11 WDCs! This is a below average driver among the TIER 2 DRIVERS???

Well, mikey, you can call me biased all you want (wouldn't be anything new, would it), but I think Massa is UNDER-rated in this forum. I am not sure why, however. This discussion seems to come up every year, like there is inane need to belittle him. Was he a Schumi? No... But who is? No one is claiming that Filipe Massa was the best, but lower level tier 2? Seriously? I know of one hullava lot of F1 drivers who would loved to have had his career.


Also beaten by Bottas, Fisichella and Frentzen.

What relevance is his team mates winning 11 WDC’s? He spent 1 season with Schumacher and that is 7 of those.

Tier 2 is generally drivers rated 4th-10th on the grid at any one time. Massa at the start and end of his careeer probably wasn’t even tier 2, that’s probably 5 seasons and 1/3 of his career. At his peak he was quite high in the 2nd tier though with probably only 5-6 drivers better than him on the grid around 2007/2008.

I think fans use two tiering systems, one for current drivers and one for all drivers in history.
For current drivers I thought there is 4 tiers-
1) Elite - Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel
2) Solid - Bottas, Hülkenberg
3) Average - Grosjean
4) Pay drivers - Stroll

If you include historical, it usually adds another tier to separate the gods from the great at the top. We have a really solid field at the moment with arguably 5 or so elite drivers. I guess time will shack out if they all really are tier 1 though.

Whenever Massa has been alongside a top driver it is clear he is quite a big stepped down from them talent wise. The same for Raikkonen. Raikkonen had a higher peak than Massa however. Ferrari management were so underwhelmed with that partnership that they began trying to get rid of Raikkonen as early as mid 2008 and it appears Massa by mid 2010.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:17 am 
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C'mon guys, you've been asked once to get it back on topic. If you want to discuss Massa's standing within the sport, start a new thread.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:40 am 
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Mod Yellow wrote:
C'mon guys, you've been asked once to get it back on topic. If you want to discuss Massa's standing within the sport, start a new thread.


Surely if we're discussing Kubica, Ferrari and 2012, the driver who he replaced and their relative performance to each other and Alonso is integral to the thread.

If not, okay, I wont mention Massa again.

Jezza13 wrote:
Banana Man wrote:
If we're talking about 'tiers' of drivers, I personally break it down a little differently.

1 - Superstars - A different class, multiple WDC - Schumi, Vettel, Alonso, Hakkinen, Senna etc.
2 - Top drivers - Not quite in that top bracket but worth a WDC in the right car - Rosberg, Hill, Montoya, Kimi, Button
3 - Race winners - Not really WDC material but given a decent car will win a few races - Coulthard, Webber, Rubens, Villeneuve, Bottas
4 - The midfield - Most other drivers, many of who could win in a faster car - Hulk, Perez, Sainz,
5 - Pay drivers - Would be nowhere near the grid without their cash - Stroll, Ericsson, Lavaggi, Palmer, Karthikeyan
6 - Grosjean - For once in your life, bring it back with the wheels still attached.

I'd say Kubica was tier 2 whilst Massa was tier 3 06-08, then tier 4 09-13.


So by that reckoning, Massa was basically 1 corner away from going from a tier 3 to a tier 2 driver & 1997 never happened.


Just to quickly address this, without drifting off topic too much...

It's how I rate the drivers. I think Kubica could have won a WDC in any of the cars the tier 2 drivers had. I'm not saying I guarantee he'd have won but I think he would have been there.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:34 pm 
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I have seen nothing in his career (nor in this thread) that suggest Kubica was better than likes of Massa, Räikkönen, Heidfeld, Fisichella, etc.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:37 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
I have seen nothing in his career (nor in this thread) that suggest Kubica was better than likes of Massa, Räikkönen, Heidfeld, Fisichella, etc.


He was certainly as good as Heidfeld, who was an excellent driver, F3000 Champion and tipped for the McLaren seat before Kimi came along.

Watching Kubica in 2008 and 2010 reminds me of Alonso in the 2008 Renault, Schumi in the '96 Ferrari or Kimi in the 2012 Lotus. He might not have had the best car on the grid but he was getting results that chassis didn't really deserve (I'm not suggesting he was as good as Schumacher)

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:03 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
I have seen nothing in his career (nor in this thread) that suggest Kubica was better than likes of Massa, Räikkönen, Heidfeld, Fisichella, etc.

He was brilliant in 2010. If not for a few races where his car let him down, particularly Suzuka where he was running 2nd, he probably would have finished ahead of Massa in the championship with much inferior machinery.

He didn't exactly walk over Heidfeld at BMW-Sauber, but my feeling here is that people under-rate Heidfeld rather than over-rate Kubica.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:53 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
I have seen nothing in his career (nor in this thread) that suggest Kubica was better than likes of Massa, Räikkönen, Heidfeld, Fisichella, etc.


Raikkonen, Massa and Fissichella have all failed to mount championship runs when in the best or very near best car. Kubica did with the third best car.


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