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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:10 pm 
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I think Vettel's win is a huge momentum shift in the championship battle for two reasons. Vettel has historically never done well at Silverstone, and first time he won at the new layout (He won in 2009 in the old layout). Also he won, in Mercedes' and Hamilton's backyard, which is a huge psychological boost and huge dent in Mercedes' confidence evident by Hamilton's, Toto's and Mercedes sore loser mentality post-race. Next race is Hockenheim and interesting to see how Vettel does since he has never won at that circuit.

Regarding the incident at the start, Vettel had a blinder of a start. Hamilton bogged down for whatever reason, and got caught up in the incident with Kimi. I love how Mercedes conveniently forget that hamilton's bad start was the catalyst for the incident with Kimi.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:11 pm 
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Lojik wrote:
Hamilton at least has more or less retracted his comments https://i.redd.it/76lr2bmezv811.jpg and I swear I saw something from Merc on Twitter or somewhere earlier saying they didn't consider it a deliberate act, though for the life of me I can't find it now. I'd be very surprised if anybody continued pushing this theory in any kind of serious way at this point.


The problem is that the damage is done. they have very emphatically put it out there that Ferrari cheats (many, if not most, of the articles on-line headlines were to that effect). Like poker said, this could be politics... Getting people to focus negatively toward Ferrari for any future incident. The "intentional or incompetant" quip was way over the top.

Judging by a couple of comment sections to articles I saw, I'd say that Merc may have overplayed this greatly though. Many were talking about the pressure may be getting to Merc and Lewis, others just labeling them poor losers.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 5:12 pm 
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Hamilton:
“Interesting tactics, I would say, from their side,”
“We’ve just to work hard to try to position ourselves better so that we are not exposed to the red cars, “Because who knows when that’s going to happen again.
We’ve got to make sure we work hard together as a team to try to lock out the front row and make sure we’re fully ahead of these guys.”


When Vettel hit Hamilton in Baku last year, Hamilton sized the opportunity to score in the psychological warfare against his opponent. And he capitalized on it. Because Vettel was wrong, he lost himself there. I felt then that it was the turning point for Vettel in his quest for the title. He was a loser there. Hamilton got him.

Here, now. Looks like Hamilton is trying the same, to get under the skin of his opponent, trying to capitalize on what happened. But he doesn't have a case now, and that places him into the position of a loser by default of it.

And of course they should try to lock out the front row and make sure they are fully ahead of those guys. That is how you win, that is what you try to do every single time. Ridiculous.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:03 pm 
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Prema wrote:
Hamilton:
“Interesting tactics, I would say, from their side,”
“We’ve just to work hard to try to position ourselves better so that we are not exposed to the red cars, “Because who knows when that’s going to happen again.
We’ve got to make sure we work hard together as a team to try to lock out the front row and make sure we’re fully ahead of these guys.”


When Vettel hit Hamilton in Baku last year, Hamilton sized the opportunity to score in the psychological warfare against his opponent. And he capitalized on it. Because Vettel was wrong, he lost himself there. I felt then that it was the turning point for Vettel in his quest for the title. He was a loser there. Hamilton got him.

Here, now. Looks like Hamilton is trying the same, to get under the skin of his opponent, trying to capitalize on what happened. But he doesn't have a case now, and that places him into the position of a loser by default of it.

And of course they should try to lock out the front row and make sure they are fully ahead of those guys. That is how you win, that is what you try to do every single time. Ridiculous.


Describing either of them 'losers' either time is a bit strong. Vettel did something very stupid in the heat of the moment, Hamilton said something very stupid in the heat of the moment. Both backtracked massively in the cold light of day, and wether that was under duress or not, both correctly came to the conclusion that they needed to somewhat justify and apologise for what they'd done.

This little Mercedes play just feels like the usual old ***** trotted out by football managers when they want the ref to have eyes on a player for diving/elbowing/whatever. It's by the numbers psychology stuff, and I hope it barely works, but there is a reason people resort to it. If it does cloud the mind of a steward the next time a Ferrari hits a Mercedes, then you can only conclude its been a good play. If that same steward thinks it's just been sour grapes, perhaps he will be more lenient.

Time will tell.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:12 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I think what the controversy does though is red flag Ferrari's hitting Mercedes cars, do the Ferrari drivers then think twice about being overly aggressive because I would be guessing the FIA might start getting concerned if it happened again?

The contact wasn't deliberate but the aggressive driving against a main rival was, this is a similar stance I made against Verstappen that if you are overly aggressive then don't be surprised to get involved in incidents.


Do you honestly think they don't really care about whether an agressive action ends in tears or not? Vettel is engaged in a very close battle with Hamilton and he knows very well that a broken front wing isn't really what he's after. Likewise for Kimi, he could have easily broken his suspension with that hit.

They were two minor mistakes, it's just a coincidence that both happened within the span of 3 races.

I'm throwing it out there if it keeps happening, at the moment it's just a coincidence, not even that really, I would say Mercedes are just kind of making the FIA take notice.

Both accidents were obviously just racing incidents even though both drivers were penalised, obviously Vettel gains nothing from such incidents when he is involved but then Mercedes might get a bit jumpy when the perceived #2 Ferrari driver hits their main title challenger, then they lump in the two incidents together just to get the FIA's attention.


thats exactly what toto was doing with his " deliberate or incompentent" statement.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:06 pm 
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PRFAN wrote:
Found this interesting, it seems Williams reverted both cars to a previous spec and does Renault are still having exhaust issues on the Red Bulls?

Technical Delegate’s Report
The following parts and parameters have been replaced / changed during the Parc Fermé yesterday
and today:
Mercedes:
Car 44:         Plank
                    LHS barge board

Ferrari:
Car 05:         LHS rear brake duct external body
                    LHS front tyre
Car 07:         RHS rear brake duct external body
                    RHS rear floor fixing support screw

Red Bull Racing TAG Heuer:
Car 03:         Secondary exhaust
Car 33:         Secondary exhaust


Force India Mercedes:
Car 11:         Cylinder #3 spark plug
                    RHS ignition coil bar

Williams Mercedes:
Car 18:         Rear wing (different specification)
                    Engine cover wing (different specification)
                    LHS cooling panel (different specification)
                    Floor
                    RHS front brake wear sensor
                    RHS front brake wear sensor calibrations
Car 35:         Rear wing (different specification)
                    Engine cover wing (different specification)
                    LHS cooling panel (different specification)
                    Front wing/nose assembly (different specification)
                    Front wing/nose assembly
                    Floor


Haas Ferrari:
Car 08:         RHS rear brake duct quadriplane
Car 20:         Front plank and skids
                    T-tray assembly
                    T-tray mounting studs
                    LHS rear brake duct quadriplane

McLaren Renault:
Car 02:         RHS front wing flap element

All above parts have been replaced with the approval of the FIA technical delegate following a written
request from the team concerned, this being in accordance with Article 34.2 of the 2018 Formula
One Sporting Regulations.

The FIA Formula One Technical Delegate

Sky Sports were reporting that Williams had to revert to their old aero package because both the floor and rear wing had issues with stalling, i.e. the flow becoming detached from the wing, causing Stroll's accident in qualifying. That is a massive fundamental cock-up by their aero department and really highlights the trouble they are in. Basically their new update didn't work at all.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:15 am 
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Vettel and Kimi intentionally taking out Merc drivers, yet not switching positions in Austria... interesting tactics indeed.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:18 am 
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Image
source:themanpost

Kimi's wife apparently weighed in after the race (removed now). Apparently directed toward the entire Mercedes team... :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:22 am 
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That's not nice for girls nor ballet :-P

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:26 am 
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Ooh! The WAGs are finally poking their noses in. :thumbup:

Think she disappointed the British press by subsequently tweeting 'I was not talking about the driver but the team' though.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:16 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
Image
source:themanpost

Kimi's wife apparently weighed in after the race (removed now). Apparently directed toward the entire Mercedes team... :lol:


:lol:
That's the best comment of the week! Good for her.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:12 pm 
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Very well said mintturaikkonen, but it should definitely have included Hamilton as well as the other shower at Mercedes


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:35 am 
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Covalent wrote:
Vettel and Kimi intentionally taking out Merc drivers, yet not switching positions in Austria... interesting tactics indeed.

You can't make it too obvious. :)


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:46 am 
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I don’t recall there being anywhere near as much outrage when Bottas punted Kimi twice in Spain and Baku last year.

Both Mercedes and Hamilton are very good at using the media to slander their opponents. Mercedes falsely accuse Ferrari of cheating with their battery. Hamilton falsely accuses Raikkonen of taking him out on purpose. They are also very good at using the media to get what they want. Hamilton was complaining that the tyres made the race in Austria boring, which was clearly not the case. He also said that Pirelli should have brought the thinner tyres, the ones Mercedes conveniently have better tyre wear on. Wolff himself has been pushing for the thinner tyres to be used for the rest of the season, even Horner called him out on it.

They need to be called out for these political games they are playing.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:06 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
I don’t recall there being anywhere near as much outrage when Bottas punted Kimi twice in Spain and Baku last year.

Both Mercedes and Hamilton are very good at using the media to slander their opponents. Mercedes falsely accuse Ferrari of cheating with their battery. Hamilton falsely accuses Raikkonen of taking him out on purpose. They are also very good at using the media to get what they want. Hamilton was complaining that the tyres made the race in Austria boring, which was clearly not the case. He also said that Pirelli should have brought the thinner tyres, the ones Mercedes conveniently have better tyre wear on. Wolff himself has been pushing for the thinner tyres to be used for the rest of the season, even Horner called him out on it.

They need to be called out for these political games they are playing.


:thumbup:

Yeah, I love how Merc wants the tires that they work best with to be required for all the remaining races. Politics are in full force once again.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:21 pm 
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Team in wanting favourable conditions in order to win shocker!?!?!

They all do the politics thing, every last one of them, we just get to hear about and scrutinise the big teams doing it more.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:28 pm 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
Team in wanting favourable conditions in order to win shocker!?!?!

They all do the politics thing, every last one of them, we just get to hear about and scrutinise the big teams doing it more.


Exactly. Merc wanting those thinner tyres is like Christian Horner suggesting the same engine mode should have to be used in qualifying and the race.

http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/229 ... -australia

I'm not sure it's anything worth getting worked up over, happens in every sport.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:06 pm 
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Blake wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
I don’t recall there being anywhere near as much outrage when Bottas punted Kimi twice in Spain and Baku last year.

Both Mercedes and Hamilton are very good at using the media to slander their opponents. Mercedes falsely accuse Ferrari of cheating with their battery. Hamilton falsely accuses Raikkonen of taking him out on purpose. They are also very good at using the media to get what they want. Hamilton was complaining that the tyres made the race in Austria boring, which was clearly not the case. He also said that Pirelli should have brought the thinner tyres, the ones Mercedes conveniently have better tyre wear on. Wolff himself has been pushing for the thinner tyres to be used for the rest of the season, even Horner called him out on it.

They need to be called out for these political games they are playing.


:thumbup:

Yeah, I love how Merc wants the tires that they work best with to be required for all the remaining races. Politics are in full force once again.


Difficult for anyone who watched Ferrari during the Todt years to feel any sympathy now. They've always fought the championship as hard off the track as on it.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:18 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
I don’t recall there being anywhere near as much outrage when Bottas punted Kimi twice in Spain and Baku last year.

Both Mercedes and Hamilton are very good at using the media to slander their opponents. Mercedes falsely accuse Ferrari of cheating with their battery. Hamilton falsely accuses Raikkonen of taking him out on purpose. They are also very good at using the media to get what they want. Hamilton was complaining that the tyres made the race in Austria boring, which was clearly not the case. He also said that Pirelli should have brought the thinner tyres, the ones Mercedes conveniently have better tyre wear on. Wolff himself has been pushing for the thinner tyres to be used for the rest of the season, even Horner called him out on it.

They need to be called out for these political games they are playing.

You think Mercedes are the only team to do stuff like this?

When it comes to playing political games I'm afraid Mercedes are absolute amateurs compared to those old masters of the art, Ferrari. How many times now have they threatened to quit the sport because they are not winning?


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:03 pm 
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j man wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
I don’t recall there being anywhere near as much outrage when Bottas punted Kimi twice in Spain and Baku last year.

Both Mercedes and Hamilton are very good at using the media to slander their opponents. Mercedes falsely accuse Ferrari of cheating with their battery. Hamilton falsely accuses Raikkonen of taking him out on purpose. They are also very good at using the media to get what they want. Hamilton was complaining that the tyres made the race in Austria boring, which was clearly not the case. He also said that Pirelli should have brought the thinner tyres, the ones Mercedes conveniently have better tyre wear on. Wolff himself has been pushing for the thinner tyres to be used for the rest of the season, even Horner called him out on it.

They need to be called out for these political games they are playing.

You think Mercedes are the only team to do stuff like this?

When it comes to playing political games I'm afraid Mercedes are absolute amateurs compared to those old masters of the art, Ferrari. How many times now have they threatened to quit the sport because they are not winning?


Apples and oranges.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:13 pm 
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JN23 wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
Team in wanting favourable conditions in order to win shocker!?!?!

They all do the politics thing, every last one of them, we just get to hear about and scrutinise the big teams doing it more.


Exactly. Merc wanting those thinner tyres is like Christian Horner suggesting the same engine mode should have to be used in qualifying and the race.

http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/229 ... -australia

I'm not sure it's anything worth getting worked up over, happens in every sport.


How is this comparable really?


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:53 am 
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Rockie wrote:
JN23 wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
Team in wanting favourable conditions in order to win shocker!?!?!

They all do the politics thing, every last one of them, we just get to hear about and scrutinise the big teams doing it more.


Exactly. Merc wanting those thinner tyres is like Christian Horner suggesting the same engine mode should have to be used in qualifying and the race.

http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/229 ... -australia

I'm not sure it's anything worth getting worked up over, happens in every sport.


How is this comparable really?


Because both wanted changes to make the conditions more favourable for them.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:17 am 
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I think that is indeed pretty comparable.

I just hope the FIA have the spine to not give in to it. I am fully against mid-season tyre changes. They are given info on the tyres towards the end of the previous season, they all take this into account when designing the car, they then test with those tyres, so that's what they should run with for the season unless there are safety issues.

If it's just a team not getting tyre wear right, then sod it, that's on them. Let them make a stop extra.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:22 am 
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mds wrote:
I think that is indeed pretty comparable.

I just hope the FIA have the spine to not give in to it. I am fully against mid-season tyre changes. They are given info on the tyres towards the end of the previous season, they all take this into account when designing the car, they then test with those tyres, so that's what they should run with for the season unless there are safety issues.

If it's just a team not getting tyre wear right, then sod it, that's on them. Let them make a stop extra.


:thumbup:

Successfully lobbying for mid-season tyre changes was exactly the way how Red Bull politiced its way to the 2013 title.
An interesting, competitive season turned into an extreme borefest thereafter.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:51 am 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
mds wrote:
I think that is indeed pretty comparable.

I just hope the FIA have the spine to not give in to it. I am fully against mid-season tyre changes. They are given info on the tyres towards the end of the previous season, they all take this into account when designing the car, they then test with those tyres, so that's what they should run with for the season unless there are safety issues.

If it's just a team not getting tyre wear right, then sod it, that's on them. Let them make a stop extra.


:thumbup:

Successfully lobbying for mid-season tyre changes was exactly the way how Red Bull politiced its way to the 2013 title.
An interesting, competitive season turned into an extreme borefest thereafter.

Undoubtedly they did play politics to get things changed to suit them, although safety played a part too after Silverstone, but that season was far from good at the beggining of the year. The racing was dreadful.

My most vivid memory of those tyres is Hamilton on the radio in Spain saying "I can't drive any slower", those tyres were a joke tbh.

I'm pretty sure it was the fan backlash to the tyres that caused them to be changed. Pretty sure I even remember Hembrey at one point saying something like "look if we change them Red Bull will dominate" in response to all the negative fan reaction to the tyres.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:17 am 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
mds wrote:
I think that is indeed pretty comparable.

I just hope the FIA have the spine to not give in to it. I am fully against mid-season tyre changes. They are given info on the tyres towards the end of the previous season, they all take this into account when designing the car, they then test with those tyres, so that's what they should run with for the season unless there are safety issues.

If it's just a team not getting tyre wear right, then sod it, that's on them. Let them make a stop extra.


:thumbup:

Successfully lobbying for mid-season tyre changes was exactly the way how Red Bull politiced its way to the 2013 title.
An interesting, competitive season turned into an extreme borefest thereafter.

Undoubtedly they did play politics to get things changed to suit them, although safety played a part too after Silverstone, but that season was far from good at the beggining of the year. The racing was dreadful.

My most vivid memory of those tyres is Hamilton on the radio in Spain saying "I can't drive any slower", those tyres were a joke tbh.

I'm pretty sure it was the fan backlash to the tyres that caused them to be changed. Pretty sure I even remember Hembrey at one point saying something like "look if we change them Red Bull will dominate" in response to all the negative fan reaction to the tyres.


Source for the quote?

Safety: well, tyres being run inside-out, with tyre temperatures outside the recommendations and much longer than recommended caused most of the failures, next to Kerb issues.

Red Bull lobbied loud and hard that year - and"abused" the failures to get their will. Mightly successful.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:29 am 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
mds wrote:
I think that is indeed pretty comparable.

I just hope the FIA have the spine to not give in to it. I am fully against mid-season tyre changes. They are given info on the tyres towards the end of the previous season, they all take this into account when designing the car, they then test with those tyres, so that's what they should run with for the season unless there are safety issues.

If it's just a team not getting tyre wear right, then sod it, that's on them. Let them make a stop extra.


:thumbup:

Successfully lobbying for mid-season tyre changes was exactly the way how Red Bull politiced its way to the 2013 title.
An interesting, competitive season turned into an extreme borefest thereafter.

Undoubtedly they did play politics to get things changed to suit them, although safety played a part too after Silverstone, but that season was far from good at the beggining of the year. The racing was dreadful.

My most vivid memory of those tyres is Hamilton on the radio in Spain saying "I can't drive any slower", those tyres were a joke tbh.

I'm pretty sure it was the fan backlash to the tyres that caused them to be changed. Pretty sure I even remember Hembrey at one point saying something like "look if we change them Red Bull will dominate" in response to all the negative fan reaction to the tyres.


Source for the quote?

Safety: well, tyres being run inside-out, with tyre temperatures outside the recommendations and much longer than recommended caused most of the failures, next to Kerb issues.

Red Bull lobbied loud and hard that year - and"abused" the failures to get their will. Mightly successful.


Hamilton's quote was widely reported - I can't exactly find the radio message itself but it's everywhere in news reports etc.
Here is one: https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/formula- ... do-1884670

Quote:
But there appeared little hunger in this performance. “I’ve just been overtaken by a Williams,” he complained on the team radio. The sub text obvious.

Then a lap later as the team asked him to conserve his tyres he answered: “I can’t drive any slower”.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:33 am 
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mds wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
mds wrote:
I think that is indeed pretty comparable.

I just hope the FIA have the spine to not give in to it. I am fully against mid-season tyre changes. They are given info on the tyres towards the end of the previous season, they all take this into account when designing the car, they then test with those tyres, so that's what they should run with for the season unless there are safety issues.

If it's just a team not getting tyre wear right, then sod it, that's on them. Let them make a stop extra.


:thumbup:

Successfully lobbying for mid-season tyre changes was exactly the way how Red Bull politiced its way to the 2013 title.
An interesting, competitive season turned into an extreme borefest thereafter.

Undoubtedly they did play politics to get things changed to suit them, although safety played a part too after Silverstone, but that season was far from good at the beggining of the year. The racing was dreadful.

My most vivid memory of those tyres is Hamilton on the radio in Spain saying "I can't drive any slower", those tyres were a joke tbh.

I'm pretty sure it was the fan backlash to the tyres that caused them to be changed. Pretty sure I even remember Hembrey at one point saying something like "look if we change them Red Bull will dominate" in response to all the negative fan reaction to the tyres.


Source for the quote?

Safety: well, tyres being run inside-out, with tyre temperatures outside the recommendations and much longer than recommended caused most of the failures, next to Kerb issues.

Red Bull lobbied loud and hard that year - and"abused" the failures to get their will. Mightly successful.


Hamilton's quote was widely reported - I can't exactly find the radio message itself but it's everywhere in news reports etc.
Here is one: https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/formula- ... do-1884670

Quote:
But there appeared little hunger in this performance. “I’ve just been overtaken by a Williams,” he complained on the team radio. The sub text obvious.

Then a lap later as the team asked him to conserve his tyres he answered: “I can’t drive any slower”.


I meant Hembrey's quote.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:07 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
mds wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:

:thumbup:

Successfully lobbying for mid-season tyre changes was exactly the way how Red Bull politiced its way to the 2013 title.
An interesting, competitive season turned into an extreme borefest thereafter.

Undoubtedly they did play politics to get things changed to suit them, although safety played a part too after Silverstone, but that season was far from good at the beggining of the year. The racing was dreadful.

My most vivid memory of those tyres is Hamilton on the radio in Spain saying "I can't drive any slower", those tyres were a joke tbh.

I'm pretty sure it was the fan backlash to the tyres that caused them to be changed. Pretty sure I even remember Hembrey at one point saying something like "look if we change them Red Bull will dominate" in response to all the negative fan reaction to the tyres.


Source for the quote?

Safety: well, tyres being run inside-out, with tyre temperatures outside the recommendations and much longer than recommended caused most of the failures, next to Kerb issues.

Red Bull lobbied loud and hard that year - and"abused" the failures to get their will. Mightly successful.


Hamilton's quote was widely reported - I can't exactly find the radio message itself but it's everywhere in news reports etc.
Here is one: https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/formula- ... do-1884670

Quote:
But there appeared little hunger in this performance. “I’ve just been overtaken by a Williams,” he complained on the team radio. The sub text obvious.

Then a lap later as the team asked him to conserve his tyres he answered: “I can’t drive any slower”.


I meant Hembrey's quote.


Oh, OK, sorry. That one is here:
https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/22501577

Quote:
"Unless you all want us to give Red Bull the tyres to win the championship. It's pretty clear. If we did that, there would be one team that would benefit and it would be them.


Note that this is before the Silverstone events.

An added twist for the 2013, if memory serves, was that the info on the 2013 tyres came very late (think december 2012 or even after that), far beyond the contractual data of somewhere mid-september. So the teams didn't really know what to expect from them and how to develop for them. Then Pirelli utterly overshot its marks with regards to durability and you got the start of 2013 season which was a bit comical on the tyre usage front.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:18 pm 
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Thanks for doing my investigative work for me mds :D


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:34 pm 
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mds wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
mds wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Undoubtedly they did play politics to get things changed to suit them, although safety played a part too after Silverstone, but that season was far from good at the beggining of the year. The racing was dreadful.

My most vivid memory of those tyres is Hamilton on the radio in Spain saying "I can't drive any slower", those tyres were a joke tbh.

I'm pretty sure it was the fan backlash to the tyres that caused them to be changed. Pretty sure I even remember Hembrey at one point saying something like "look if we change them Red Bull will dominate" in response to all the negative fan reaction to the tyres.


Source for the quote?

Safety: well, tyres being run inside-out, with tyre temperatures outside the recommendations and much longer than recommended caused most of the failures, next to Kerb issues.

Red Bull lobbied loud and hard that year - and"abused" the failures to get their will. Mightly successful.


Hamilton's quote was widely reported - I can't exactly find the radio message itself but it's everywhere in news reports etc.
Here is one: https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/formula- ... do-1884670

Quote:
But there appeared little hunger in this performance. “I’ve just been overtaken by a Williams,” he complained on the team radio. The sub text obvious.

Then a lap later as the team asked him to conserve his tyres he answered: “I can’t drive any slower”.


I meant Hembrey's quote.


Oh, OK, sorry. That one is here:
https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/22501577

Quote:
"Unless you all want us to give Red Bull the tyres to win the championship. It's pretty clear. If we did that, there would be one team that would benefit and it would be them.


Note that this is before the Silverstone events.

.


No need for sorry; I did not express myself clearly.

But yes, exactly, Red Bull lobbyied hard throughout the season to get the tyres suiting them. Hembery's pre-Silverstone quote underlines this. And it came as predicted - in the second half of the season the winner was known even before the weekend started ...

Of course, Mercedes wants something very similar this season - the tyres that suit them. And of course Ferrari does the same - lobbying for the tyres that suit them (and against the ones that does not). It is difficult for Pirelli to remain neutral with political pressure from all sides.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:41 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
But yes, exactly, Red Bull lobbyied hard throughout the season to get the tyres suiting them. Hembery's pre-Silverstone quote underlines this. And it came as predicted - in the second half of the season the winner was known even before the weekend started ...


Yes, but I also went over some extra arguments which make for a different situation back then and now and I don't think they should be glossed over.

Of course it is nothing new that teams will try to get things their way and they all do it (well, especially the front-runners). But in case of 2013, there was an outcry from a lot of people - fans, pundits and drivers - and the tyre info was there far too late for teams to factor it into development. During actual development they had to make do with Pirelli's statement that "the tyres wouldn't change too much". And far into the development cycle they changed the tyres so much and they were too soft.

Basically those who were good on the tyres, got lucky.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:53 pm 
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mds wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
But yes, exactly, Red Bull lobbyied hard throughout the season to get the tyres suiting them. Hembery's pre-Silverstone quote underlines this. And it came as predicted - in the second half of the season the winner was known even before the weekend started ...


Yes, but I also went over some extra arguments which make for a different situation back then and now and I don't think they should be glossed over.

Of course it is nothing new that teams will try to get things their way and they all do it (well, especially the front-runners). But in case of 2013, there was an outcry from a lot of people - fans, pundits and drivers - and the tyre info was there far too late for teams to factor it into development. During actual development they had to make do with Pirelli's statement that "the tyres wouldn't change too much". And far into the development cycle they changed the tyres so much and they were too soft.

Basically those who were good on the tyres, got lucky.


Well, it was the same for everyone, wasn't it?

I already explained that there were other reasons for the tyre failures - but of course they were politically downplayed by Red Bull and some others who hoped for an advantage.

And also this year there are more factors - like the better performance of the modified tyres regarding blistering (at the end of the day making them safer ...).

It is really very similar.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:08 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Well, it was the same for everyone, wasn't it?

I already explained that there were other reasons for the tyre failures - but of course they were politically downplayed by Red Bull and some others who hoped for an advantage.


The tyres were a lottery, they were comically soft, and the fact that there was upheaval even before Silverstone and that it was far far broader than just from RBR shows that there was an actual problem. Everybody hated them but for the teams that lucked out on the tyres suiting their car.

Quote:
And also this year there are more factors - like the better performance of the modified tyres regarding blistering (at the end of the day making them safer ...).


Drivers can race, it's just that some go through the tyres faster than others.

Back then it wasn't a race, it was a farce. No, I do not agree it was "very similar".

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:23 pm 
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Prema wrote:
Hamilton:
“Interesting tactics, I would say, from their side,”
“We’ve just to work hard to try to position ourselves better so that we are not exposed to the red cars, “Because who knows when that’s going to happen again.
We’ve got to make sure we work hard together as a team to try to lock out the front row and make sure we’re fully ahead of these guys.”


When Vettel hit Hamilton in Baku last year, Hamilton sized the opportunity to score in the psychological warfare against his opponent. And he capitalized on it. Because Vettel was wrong, he lost himself there. I felt then that it was the turning point for Vettel in his quest for the title. He was a loser there. Hamilton got him.

Here, now. Looks like Hamilton is trying the same, to get under the skin of his opponent, trying to capitalize on what happened. But he doesn't have a case now, and that places him into the position of a loser by default of it.

And of course they should try to lock out the front row and make sure they are fully ahead of those guys. That is how you win, that is what you try to do every single time. Ridiculous.

Hamilton loves to play the victim. He did the same thing in 2016 "something or someone doesn't want me to win". Hamilton is very good at using the media to push his agenda.

Unfortunately for Lewis, Kimi is too popular and well-liked. That's why his slander in the media backfired.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:34 am 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
mds wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
But yes, exactly, Red Bull lobbyied hard throughout the season to get the tyres suiting them. Hembery's pre-Silverstone quote underlines this. And it came as predicted - in the second half of the season the winner was known even before the weekend started ...


Yes, but I also went over some extra arguments which make for a different situation back then and now and I don't think they should be glossed over.

Of course it is nothing new that teams will try to get things their way and they all do it (well, especially the front-runners). But in case of 2013, there was an outcry from a lot of people - fans, pundits and drivers - and the tyre info was there far too late for teams to factor it into development. During actual development they had to make do with Pirelli's statement that "the tyres wouldn't change too much". And far into the development cycle they changed the tyres so much and they were too soft.

Basically those who were good on the tyres, got lucky.


Well, it was the same for everyone, wasn't it?

I already explained that there were other reasons for the tyre failures - but of course they were politically downplayed by Red Bull and some others who hoped for an advantage.

And also this year there are more factors - like the better performance of the modified tyres regarding blistering (at the end of the day making them safer ...).

It is really very similar.


This ignores the fact that Redbull were leading both championships at the time, and Mercedes would qualify on pole and could not keep the lead past 3 corners on the tyres till they did the secret tyre test, it was a farce that had to be put right.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:46 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
Prema wrote:
Hamilton:
“Interesting tactics, I would say, from their side,”
“We’ve just to work hard to try to position ourselves better so that we are not exposed to the red cars, “Because who knows when that’s going to happen again.
We’ve got to make sure we work hard together as a team to try to lock out the front row and make sure we’re fully ahead of these guys.”


When Vettel hit Hamilton in Baku last year, Hamilton sized the opportunity to score in the psychological warfare against his opponent. And he capitalized on it. Because Vettel was wrong, he lost himself there. I felt then that it was the turning point for Vettel in his quest for the title. He was a loser there. Hamilton got him.

Here, now. Looks like Hamilton is trying the same, to get under the skin of his opponent, trying to capitalize on what happened. But he doesn't have a case now, and that places him into the position of a loser by default of it.

And of course they should try to lock out the front row and make sure they are fully ahead of those guys. That is how you win, that is what you try to do every single time. Ridiculous.

Hamilton loves to play the victim. He did the same thing in 2016 "something or someone doesn't want me to win". Hamilton is very good at using the media to push his agenda.

Unfortunately for Lewis, Kimi is too popular and well-liked. That's why his slander in the media backfired.

Yes even in his "apology" he gives the impression of having been a victim to some outside oppression, aptly punctuated by #StillIRise...
Hang in there Lewis :(

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:47 am 
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Well, in Silverstone Hamilton actually was the victim - no matter how the Vettel-Räikkönen brigade tries to spin it.

Same story with midseason tyre changes: when they suit Vettel, they are fine (2013), when they do not suit him, they are unfair.

:lol: 8)


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:27 am 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Well, in Silverstone Hamilton actually was the victim - no matter how the Vettel-Räikkönen brigade tries to spin it.

Same story with midseason tyre changes: when they suit Vettel, they are fine (2013), when they do not suit him, they are unfair.

:lol: 8)


:lol: 8)

Funny... You bring up a 2013 tire change while conveniently ignoring that Vettel & Raikkonen have been victims of incidents in the past too... since I was one who agreed that Merc wanting to have them make their best tire be required for the rest of the season was political, you might have noted that (though likely not) there wasn't any denial that teams have used politics to their benefit before. does that mean Merc is above question when they do it?

P.S.
I don't remember Vettel or Raikkonen virtually hinting that an opposing team is deliberately taking him and his teammate out.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:35 am 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Well, in Silverstone Hamilton actually was the victim - no matter how the Vettel-Räikkönen brigade tries to spin it.

Same story with midseason tyre changes: when they suit Vettel, they are fine (2013), when they do not suit him, they are unfair.

:lol: 8)

Exactly.


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