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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:47 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The good news for Ocon is that Williams bafflingly not wanting a quality driver for a short period of time but being happy with Russell shows that the noise there getting from Merc is Ocon will be driving in a silver car in the near future.

That said I still can't understand why Willaims would turn down a driver as good as Ocon even if it was just for a season. Have him now and get Russell next year what have they lost?

Yeah with all due respect to Robert Kubica, his time has passed in F1. I'd feel good for him getting the seat if not for Ocon being sidelined. I just think it's a shame for Williams. They could have had a really interesting lineup for next season.

For Ocon, it's looking very likely that he will replace Bottas in 2020. That's how it's all lining up. Bottas has been a good wingman but he hasn't done enough to protect his seat long-term. With Ocon, Mercedes have both a guy who can possibly do an even better job in supporting their title push and a guy who might some day be suitable to be their #1. Personally, I don't see the same magic from Ocon that I have from Max (or even Charles) but he may be a late bloomer.


I’m not that enamored with Ocon. He is the same level as Perez imo. I really struggle to envision what explanation Toto Wolff is going to come up with to swap Bottas for Ocon. To me there’s no significant difference there either. Unless he thinks they’ll be running a third car in 2020...


Well Perez is better than Bottas and Ocon is slightly better than Perez in just his second season and will surely improve further. It's not hard to justify it. Even just saying Bottas has topped out whilst Ocon has the potential to get better is reason enough.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:55 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The good news for Ocon is that Williams bafflingly not wanting a quality driver for a short period of time but being happy with Russell shows that the noise there getting from Merc is Ocon will be driving in a silver car in the near future.

That said I still can't understand why Willaims would turn down a driver as good as Ocon even if it was just for a season. Have him now and get Russell next year what have they lost?

Yeah with all due respect to Robert Kubica, his time has passed in F1. I'd feel good for him getting the seat if not for Ocon being sidelined. I just think it's a shame for Williams. They could have had a really interesting lineup for next season.

For Ocon, it's looking very likely that he will replace Bottas in 2020. That's how it's all lining up. Bottas has been a good wingman but he hasn't done enough to protect his seat long-term. With Ocon, Mercedes have both a guy who can possibly do an even better job in supporting their title push and a guy who might some day be suitable to be their #1. Personally, I don't see the same magic from Ocon that I have from Max (or even Charles) but he may be a late bloomer.


I’m not that enamored with Ocon. He is the same level as Perez imo. I really struggle to envision what explanation Toto Wolff is going to come up with to swap Bottas for Ocon. To me there’s no significant difference there either. Unless he thinks they’ll be running a third car in 2020...


Well Perez is better than Bottas and Ocon is slightly better than Perez in just his second season and will surely improve further. It's not hard to justify it. Even just saying Bottas has topped out whilst Ocon has the potential to get better is reason enough.

I don't see the quantifiable proof of that.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:07 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
On Ted's Quali notebook he was heavily suggesting the choice for Williams was between Russell and Ocon, and that Russell was being chosen because they didnt want to be effectively training up Ocon only to have him pinched ala Bottas in a years time. Didnt sound great for Bottas tbh, sounded like behind the scenes Ocon is going to be in a Mercedes sooner rather than later


I don't understand this at all from Williams' perspective. I mean I understand what they're saying, but if they're worried about having training another team's driver only for him to be moved elsewhere then why are they taking Russell? Sure, he might be at the team for two, or even three seasons, but he's still going to be a Mercedes driver. There is still the prospect that a better seat opens up (at Force India, for instance) and Mercedes are able to move him there as soon as 2020.

It also completely ignores that if Williams are basically conceding one seat goes to a pay driver, why are they not falling over themselves to ensure that they get the best driver they can in their other seat, which would surely be Ocon rather than Russell.

Are you sure that Ocon is better than Russell?


Yes.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:12 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
On Ted's Quali notebook he was heavily suggesting the choice for Williams was between Russell and Ocon, and that Russell was being chosen because they didnt want to be effectively training up Ocon only to have him pinched ala Bottas in a years time. Didnt sound great for Bottas tbh, sounded like behind the scenes Ocon is going to be in a Mercedes sooner rather than later


I don't understand this at all from Williams' perspective. I mean I understand what they're saying, but if they're worried about having training another team's driver only for him to be moved elsewhere then why are they taking Russell? Sure, he might be at the team for two, or even three seasons, but he's still going to be a Mercedes driver. There is still the prospect that a better seat opens up (at Force India, for instance) and Mercedes are able to move him there as soon as 2020.

It also completely ignores that if Williams are basically conceding one seat goes to a pay driver, why are they not falling over themselves to ensure that they get the best driver they can in their other seat, which would surely be Ocon rather than Russell.

Are you sure that Ocon is better than Russell?


Yes.

Again there's no definitive proof.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:59 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The good news for Ocon is that Williams bafflingly not wanting a quality driver for a short period of time but being happy with Russell shows that the noise there getting from Merc is Ocon will be driving in a silver car in the near future.

That said I still can't understand why Willaims would turn down a driver as good as Ocon even if it was just for a season. Have him now and get Russell next year what have they lost?

Yeah with all due respect to Robert Kubica, his time has passed in F1. I'd feel good for him getting the seat if not for Ocon being sidelined. I just think it's a shame for Williams. They could have had a really interesting lineup for next season.

For Ocon, it's looking very likely that he will replace Bottas in 2020. That's how it's all lining up. Bottas has been a good wingman but he hasn't done enough to protect his seat long-term. With Ocon, Mercedes have both a guy who can possibly do an even better job in supporting their title push and a guy who might some day be suitable to be their #1. Personally, I don't see the same magic from Ocon that I have from Max (or even Charles) but he may be a late bloomer.


I’m not that enamored with Ocon. He is the same level as Perez imo. I really struggle to envision what explanation Toto Wolff is going to come up with to swap Bottas for Ocon. To me there’s no significant difference there either. Unless he thinks they’ll be running a third car in 2020...


Well Perez is better than Bottas and Ocon is slightly better than Perez in just his second season and will surely improve further. It's not hard to justify it. Even just saying Bottas has topped out whilst Ocon has the potential to get better is reason enough.

I don't see the quantifiable proof of that.


There doesn't need to be. Wolff just has to think it. Personally I think it's pretty clear but just like most F1 driver comparisons I can't offer proof.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:37 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
On Ted's Quali notebook he was heavily suggesting the choice for Williams was between Russell and Ocon, and that Russell was being chosen because they didnt want to be effectively training up Ocon only to have him pinched ala Bottas in a years time. Didnt sound great for Bottas tbh, sounded like behind the scenes Ocon is going to be in a Mercedes sooner rather than later


I don't understand this at all from Williams' perspective. I mean I understand what they're saying, but if they're worried about having training another team's driver only for him to be moved elsewhere then why are they taking Russell? Sure, he might be at the team for two, or even three seasons, but he's still going to be a Mercedes driver. There is still the prospect that a better seat opens up (at Force India, for instance) and Mercedes are able to move him there as soon as 2020.

It also completely ignores that if Williams are basically conceding one seat goes to a pay driver, why are they not falling over themselves to ensure that they get the best driver they can in their other seat, which would surely be Ocon rather than Russell.

Are you sure that Ocon is better than Russell?


Yes.

Again there's no definitive proof.


Of course not.

But I closely followed both careers so far and I am sure of my opinion.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:06 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Yeah with all due respect to Robert Kubica, his time has passed in F1. I'd feel good for him getting the seat if not for Ocon being sidelined. I just think it's a shame for Williams. They could have had a really interesting lineup for next season.

For Ocon, it's looking very likely that he will replace Bottas in 2020. That's how it's all lining up. Bottas has been a good wingman but he hasn't done enough to protect his seat long-term. With Ocon, Mercedes have both a guy who can possibly do an even better job in supporting their title push and a guy who might some day be suitable to be their #1. Personally, I don't see the same magic from Ocon that I have from Max (or even Charles) but he may be a late bloomer.


I’m not that enamored with Ocon. He is the same level as Perez imo. I really struggle to envision what explanation Toto Wolff is going to come up with to swap Bottas for Ocon. To me there’s no significant difference there either. Unless he thinks they’ll be running a third car in 2020...


Well Perez is better than Bottas and Ocon is slightly better than Perez in just his second season and will surely improve further. It's not hard to justify it. Even just saying Bottas has topped out whilst Ocon has the potential to get better is reason enough.

I don't see the quantifiable proof of that.


There doesn't need to be. Wolff just has to think it. Personally I think it's pretty clear but just like most F1 driver comparisons I can't offer proof.

I don't think it's pretty clear at all, you just swap one driver out for another that's going to be slower than Hamilton.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:12 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
I don't understand this at all from Williams' perspective. I mean I understand what they're saying, but if they're worried about having training another team's driver only for him to be moved elsewhere then why are they taking Russell? Sure, he might be at the team for two, or even three seasons, but he's still going to be a Mercedes driver. There is still the prospect that a better seat opens up (at Force India, for instance) and Mercedes are able to move him there as soon as 2020.

It also completely ignores that if Williams are basically conceding one seat goes to a pay driver, why are they not falling over themselves to ensure that they get the best driver they can in their other seat, which would surely be Ocon rather than Russell.

Are you sure that Ocon is better than Russell?


Yes.

Again there's no definitive proof.


Of course not.

But I closely followed both careers so far and I am sure of my opinion.

I follow young driver's careers as well, Russell has every chance of being a good F1 driver much like Ocon is.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:44 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

Well Perez is better than Bottas and Ocon is slightly better than Perez in just his second season and will surely improve further. It's not hard to justify it. Even just saying Bottas has topped out whilst Ocon has the potential to get better is reason enough.

I don't see the quantifiable proof of that.

There doesn't need to be. Wolff just has to think it. Personally I think it's pretty clear but just like most F1 driver comparisons I can't offer proof.

I don't think it's pretty clear at all, you just swap one driver out for another that's going to be slower than Hamilton.

"Slower than Hamilton" encompasses pretty much anyone they might bring to the team. Ocon has been quicker over a single lap than Perez and has bested him in most of the races too. Sergio had that podium finish; which skews the points somewhat and he also took Ocon out in Singapore when Ocon was about to overtake him. I think Esteban is clearly quicker than Sergio by a bit. The big issue, to me, is Valteri's race pace. It's just not impressive and I don't think Mercedes feel confident that Bottas can mount a title challenge should something happen to Lewis.

I don't get the sense that Ocon would be some big improvement over Valteri though. Maybe Mercedes knows more about this than we do but I just don't see it.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:36 am 
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pokerman wrote:
I don't think it's pretty clear at all, you just swap one driver out for another that's going to be slower than Hamilton.


So why not just hire Stroll and make a load of money? He'd be slower than Hamilton as well. Obviously there are degrees and if you can get a better driver why not get him. Even if Ocon is only as good as Bottas now he will get better but Bottas is unlikely to improve. Honestly to be as good (I think slightly better) as Perez at this point in his career seems to be a massively underrated achievement.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:21 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Are you sure that Ocon is better than Russell?


Yes.

Again there's no definitive proof.


Of course not.

But I closely followed both careers so far and I am sure of my opinion.

I follow young driver's careers as well, Russell has every chance of being a good F1 driver much like Ocon is.


IMO, he is rather another Vandoorne. Time will tell.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:38 am 
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/45831954

Russell confirmed at Williams.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:48 am 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:

IMO, he is rather another Vandoorne. Time will tell.


Don't agree. Russell is winning the F2 championship in his rookie season.
Vandoorne lost out as a rookie to Jolyon Palmer!
I can see Russell enjoying a far more successful F1 career than Vandoorne.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:04 am 
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Laz_T800 wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:

IMO, he is rather another Vandoorne. Time will tell.


Don't agree. Russell is winning the F2 championship in his rookie season.
Vandoorne lost out as a rookie to Jolyon Palmer!
I can see Russell enjoying a far more successful F1 career than Vandoorne.


Vandoorne's career up to that point was stronger.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:35 am 
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Russell joins Williams on a multi year deal:
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.williams-sign-mercedes-junior-russell-on-multi-year-deal.20FsNkLv60MCmc0IGUkEc4.html

Ocon's 2019 hopes over!

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:50 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

Well Perez is better than Bottas and Ocon is slightly better than Perez in just his second season and will surely improve further. It's not hard to justify it. Even just saying Bottas has topped out whilst Ocon has the potential to get better is reason enough.

I don't see the quantifiable proof of that.

There doesn't need to be. Wolff just has to think it. Personally I think it's pretty clear but just like most F1 driver comparisons I can't offer proof.

I don't think it's pretty clear at all, you just swap one driver out for another that's going to be slower than Hamilton.

"Slower than Hamilton" encompasses pretty much anyone they might bring to the team. Ocon has been quicker over a single lap than Perez and has bested him in most of the races too. Sergio had that podium finish; which skews the points somewhat and he also took Ocon out in Singapore when Ocon was about to overtake him. I think Esteban is clearly quicker than Sergio by a bit. The big issue, to me, is Valteri's race pace. It's just not impressive and I don't think Mercedes feel confident that Bottas can mount a title challenge should something happen to Lewis.

I don't get the sense that Ocon would be some big improvement over Valteri though. Maybe Mercedes knows more about this than we do but I just don't see it.

Ocon and Perez are very closely matched, in the teammate wars they are voted as the closest pairing, qualifying is less than 0.01s in favour to Ocon which is nothing, however I didn't realise that Ocon has been beating Perez in the races more often than not.

With regard to your last sentence that's what I'm saying, it might just come down to a case of Mercedes needing to validate their junior program and certainly I would say that Ocon has successfully served his apprenticeship and wouldn't look out at place at Mercedes, but as I say I don't see him as much more than a like for like replacement for Bottas.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:52 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I don't think it's pretty clear at all, you just swap one driver out for another that's going to be slower than Hamilton.


So why not just hire Stroll and make a load of money? He'd be slower than Hamilton as well. Obviously there are degrees and if you can get a better driver why not get him. Even if Ocon is only as good as Bottas now he will get better but Bottas is unlikely to improve. Honestly to be as good (I think slightly better) as Perez at this point in his career seems to be a massively underrated achievement.

Yeah I've basically just answered that.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:54 am 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Yes.

Again there's no definitive proof.


Of course not.

But I closely followed both careers so far and I am sure of my opinion.

I follow young driver's careers as well, Russell has every chance of being a good F1 driver much like Ocon is.


IMO, he is rather another Vandoorne. Time will tell.

Indeed but then again I wouldn't say that Ocon is another Verstappen.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:56 am 
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shoot999 wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/45831954

Russell confirmed at Williams.

Good news, the standout driver in F2 and on the verge of back to back GP3 and F2 titles emulating Leclerc and like Leclerc will have won both titles as a rookie.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:58 am 
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Pleased about this. Good news all round . Well deserved by Russel, British driver at Williams is nice, and good to see Williams taking a new driver on merit not ££££.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:00 pm 
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DOLOMITE wrote:
Pleased about this. Good news all round . Well deserved by Russel, British driver at Williams is nice, and good to see Williams taking a new driver on merit not ££££.


Is it on merit or are they getting something from Mercedes for it?


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:00 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:

I thought we already knew this, he sits out 2019 waiting for the Mercedes seat in 2020, Bottas has a performance option for 2020 but ultimately I guess that can be bought out and Bottas might have to beat Hamilton or look capable of beating Hamilton to keep his seat?

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:05 pm 
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Lojik wrote:
DOLOMITE wrote:
Pleased about this. Good news all round . Well deserved by Russel, British driver at Williams is nice, and good to see Williams taking a new driver on merit not ££££.


Is it on merit or are they getting something from Mercedes for it?

If Mercedes won't buy Ocon a seat then I don't see them buying Russell a seat, I think it's a discounted seat with Williams wanting Russell because of his quality as opposed to a Sirotkin who has to pay top rate to drive in F1.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:08 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lojik wrote:
DOLOMITE wrote:
Pleased about this. Good news all round . Well deserved by Russel, British driver at Williams is nice, and good to see Williams taking a new driver on merit not ££££.


Is it on merit or are they getting something from Mercedes for it?

If Mercedes won't buy Ocon a seat then I don't see them buying Russell a seat, I think it's a discounted seat with Williams wanting Russell because of his quality as opposed to a Sirotkin who has to pay top rate to drive in F1.

Russell is probably cheaper of the two. I would imagine Merc are paying his wages and Williams get a discount on engines.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:12 pm 
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Seanie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lojik wrote:
DOLOMITE wrote:
Pleased about this. Good news all round . Well deserved by Russel, British driver at Williams is nice, and good to see Williams taking a new driver on merit not ££££.


Is it on merit or are they getting something from Mercedes for it?

If Mercedes won't buy Ocon a seat then I don't see them buying Russell a seat, I think it's a discounted seat with Williams wanting Russell because of his quality as opposed to a Sirotkin who has to pay top rate to drive in F1.

Russell is probably cheaper of the two. I would imagine Merc are paying his wages and Williams get a discount on engines.

No I think the difference in respect to Williams is the length of contract, they didn't want a driver just for 1 year which would have been the case with Ocon, in respect to Mercedes they thought placing Ocon further down the grid than Force India was pointless at this stage in Ocon's career.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:22 pm 
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We heard nothing from Force India and Perez.
Could we see Ocon staying at FI and Perez following his suitcases of dollars to Williams ?

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:22 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Laz_T800 wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:

IMO, he is rather another Vandoorne. Time will tell.


Don't agree. Russell is winning the F2 championship in his rookie season.
Vandoorne lost out as a rookie to Jolyon Palmer!
I can see Russell enjoying a far more successful F1 career than Vandoorne.


Vandoorne's career up to that point was stronger.


I'd consider them to have had similar junior careers to be fair.
Vandoorne achieved 3 championships over a longer time span than Russells 3 titles have taken him?


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:24 pm 
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Harpo wrote:
We heard nothing from Force India and Perez.
Could we see Ocon staying at FI and Perez following his suitcases of dollars to Williams ?

It's going to be announced in Mexico, Perez's home race.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:38 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The good news for Ocon is that Williams bafflingly not wanting a quality driver for a short period of time but being happy with Russell shows that the noise there getting from Merc is Ocon will be driving in a silver car in the near future.

That said I still can't understand why Willaims would turn down a driver as good as Ocon even if it was just for a season. Have him now and get Russell next year what have they lost?

Yeah with all due respect to Robert Kubica, his time has passed in F1. I'd feel good for him getting the seat if not for Ocon being sidelined. I just think it's a shame for Williams. They could have had a really interesting lineup for next season.

For Ocon, it's looking very likely that he will replace Bottas in 2020. That's how it's all lining up. Bottas has been a good wingman but he hasn't done enough to protect his seat long-term. With Ocon, Mercedes have both a guy who can possibly do an even better job in supporting their title push and a guy who might some day be suitable to be their #1. Personally, I don't see the same magic from Ocon that I have from Max (or even Charles) but he may be a late bloomer.


I’m not that enamored with Ocon. He is the same level as Perez imo. I really struggle to envision what explanation Toto Wolff is going to come up with to swap Bottas for Ocon. To me there’s no significant difference there either. Unless he thinks they’ll be running a third car in 2020...


Well Perez is better than Bottas and Ocon is slightly better than Perez in just his second season and will surely improve further. It's not hard to justify it. Even just saying Bottas has topped out whilst Ocon has the potential to get better is reason enough.


When the merc seat became available they did choose Bottas over Perez. And prior to being teamed up with Hamilton Bottas was highly regarded around the paddock although he was also known to be a little boring. Being paired up with Hamilton has hurt his stature but he’s still a very good driver, just not great.

As far as Ocon and Perez there is really little difference. They are almost always running close to each other on Sundays. Yes ocon is leading the qualifying battle but the gap is usually small.They are the most closely matched driver pairing on the grid imo. Will Ocon develop into a better driver eventually? Possible but not likely imo.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:45 pm 
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Lojik wrote:
DOLOMITE wrote:
Pleased about this. Good news all round . Well deserved by Russel, British driver at Williams is nice, and good to see Williams taking a new driver on merit not ££££.


Is it on merit or are they getting something from Mercedes for it?


Well I'm sure there's a mutually agreeable monetary aspect ! But his CV stacks up pretty favorably to some previous driver choices.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:37 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The good news for Ocon is that Williams bafflingly not wanting a quality driver for a short period of time but being happy with Russell shows that the noise there getting from Merc is Ocon will be driving in a silver car in the near future.

That said I still can't understand why Willaims would turn down a driver as good as Ocon even if it was just for a season. Have him now and get Russell next year what have they lost?

Yeah with all due respect to Robert Kubica, his time has passed in F1. I'd feel good for him getting the seat if not for Ocon being sidelined. I just think it's a shame for Williams. They could have had a really interesting lineup for next season.

For Ocon, it's looking very likely that he will replace Bottas in 2020. That's how it's all lining up. Bottas has been a good wingman but he hasn't done enough to protect his seat long-term. With Ocon, Mercedes have both a guy who can possibly do an even better job in supporting their title push and a guy who might some day be suitable to be their #1. Personally, I don't see the same magic from Ocon that I have from Max (or even Charles) but he may be a late bloomer.


I’m not that enamored with Ocon. He is the same level as Perez imo. I really struggle to envision what explanation Toto Wolff is going to come up with to swap Bottas for Ocon. To me there’s no significant difference there either. Unless he thinks they’ll be running a third car in 2020...


Well Perez is better than Bottas and Ocon is slightly better than Perez in just his second season and will surely improve further. It's not hard to justify it. Even just saying Bottas has topped out whilst Ocon has the potential to get better is reason enough.


When the merc seat became available they did choose Bottas over Perez. And prior to being teamed up with Hamilton Bottas was highly regarded around the paddock although he was also known to be a little boring. Being paired up with Hamilton has hurt his stature but he’s still a very good driver, just not great.

As far as Ocon and Perez there is really little difference. They are almost always running close to each other on Sundays. Yes ocon is leading the qualifying battle but the gap is usually small.They are the most closely matched driver pairing on the grid imo. Will Ocon develop into a better driver eventually? Possible but not likely imo.

Let's also not forget that Ferrari were looking to replace Kimi with Bottas but balked at paying Williams $12M for his release, a figure that Mercedes would pay Williams later, again a case of Ferrari over looking Perez for Bottas.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:01 pm 
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Ocon, for me, is a lot like Nico Hulkenberg. He's certainly quick but he lacks that special something in the races to really put him on the top shelf. If we were to list all of the drivers in F1 from best to worst, Ocon would be somewhere in the middle. He definitely belongs out there but he isn't outstanding among his peers IMO.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:12 pm 
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As per the link below, Ocon was offered the seat at Williams but their condition was Ocon needs to commit more than 1 year to Williams. Ocon turned down the offer as he wants to be connected to Mercedes & is looking forward to 2020 where he has a genuine shot to be in a top team.
https://thesportsrush.com/ocon-did-not-join-williams-as-he-was-opposed-to-a-multi-year-deal/

It's a calculated move for sure!

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:20 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
As per the link below, Ocon was offered the seat at Williams but their condition was Ocon needs to commit more than 1 year to Williams. Ocon turned down the offer as he wants to be connected to Mercedes & is looking forward to 2020 where he has a genuine shot to be in a top team.
https://thesportsrush.com/ocon-did-not-join-williams-as-he-was-opposed-to-a-multi-year-deal/

It's a calculated move for sure!

It might easily be a miscalculation on his part. Out of sight, out of mind. If Russel performs impressively at Williams and/or Bottas has a strong season with Mercedes next year, do you really thing that they will give Ocon that seat in 2019? It's always risky to turn down a chance to remain on the grid.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:32 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:45 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The good news for Ocon is that Williams bafflingly not wanting a quality driver for a short period of time but being happy with Russell shows that the noise there getting from Merc is Ocon will be driving in a silver car in the near future.

That said I still can't understand why Willaims would turn down a driver as good as Ocon even if it was just for a season. Have him now and get Russell next year what have they lost?

Yeah with all due respect to Robert Kubica, his time has passed in F1. I'd feel good for him getting the seat if not for Ocon being sidelined. I just think it's a shame for Williams. They could have had a really interesting lineup for next season.

For Ocon, it's looking very likely that he will replace Bottas in 2020. That's how it's all lining up. Bottas has been a good wingman but he hasn't done enough to protect his seat long-term. With Ocon, Mercedes have both a guy who can possibly do an even better job in supporting their title push and a guy who might some day be suitable to be their #1. Personally, I don't see the same magic from Ocon that I have from Max (or even Charles) but he may be a late bloomer.


I’m not that enamored with Ocon. He is the same level as Perez imo. I really struggle to envision what explanation Toto Wolff is going to come up with to swap Bottas for Ocon. To me there’s no significant difference there either. Unless he thinks they’ll be running a third car in 2020...


Well Perez is better than Bottas and Ocon is slightly better than Perez in just his second season and will surely improve further. It's not hard to justify it. Even just saying Bottas has topped out whilst Ocon has the potential to get better is reason enough.



It's an interesting and bold call. There's no doubt in my mind that Bottas is considerably faster than Perez over a lap. The qualifying record for Perez with Button in 2013 was something like 10-9 in his favor. Contrast this with Hamilton and Alonso pretty much obliterating Button in Q. Basically, if Perez was in a Mercedes or a Ferrari this year, he would be having a lot of third row starts with one Red Bull frequently being ahead of him. Not the recipe for doing well at the front of the grid. To say something for him though, I think he would have attempted a move at the end of the Bahrain GP this year, and he might have held on to second place in races like Hungary because of his gifts at managing rubber over long stints. I'm of the persuasion that the midfield as a setting actually brings Perez's advantages into greater relief (his opportunism, ability to make alternative strategies work, bullishness around other cars when jockeying for position, etc.) and that the front of the field would highlight his incurable deficits (such as in speed).


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:04 pm 
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If Mercedes regarded Perez better than Bottas I think Ocon would already be in the Mercedes at the very least for next year, given how strong Ocon has shown himself against Perez over the last two seasons. If Ocon has opted against a Multi-Year deal with Williams in the hopes of getting in the Mercedes for 2020 he is taking a very big risk.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:34 pm 
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Grizzly B wrote:
If Mercedes regarded Perez better than Bottas I think Ocon would already be in the Mercedes at the very least for next year, given how strong Ocon has shown himself against Perez over the last two seasons. If Ocon has opted against a Multi-Year deal with Williams in the hopes of getting in the Mercedes for 2020 he is taking a very big risk.


Not exactly because Toto doesn't want to part with Ocon. Toto didn't want to sever ties with Ocon as he believes in Ocon's skills. Toto's belief in him is a good support & if by chance Bottas can't match Hamilton in 2019, there's every chance we could see Ocon replacing Bottas in 2020.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:52 pm 
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Ocon's lovely gesture towards Russell:


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:46 pm 
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Grizzly B wrote:
If Mercedes regarded Perez better than Bottas I think Ocon would already be in the Mercedes at the very least for next year, given how strong Ocon has shown himself against Perez over the last two seasons. If Ocon has opted against a Multi-Year deal with Williams in the hopes of getting in the Mercedes for 2020 he is taking a very big risk.


Don't forget Bottas was in superb form when he was resigned and Toto would've been sure at that point that Ocon had a ride for 2019. At the time it happaned it was a no brainer really.


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