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Canada 2019: Vettel Penalty
As per the rules, the penalty is correct and justified 29%  29%  [ 25 ]
As per the rules, the penalty is correct, but it seems harsh and shouldn't have been awarded 14%  14%  [ 12 ]
As per the rules, the penalty is correct. It seems harsh but it's consistent and that's what has been asked for 25%  25%  [ 22 ]
Penalty not justified at all, Vettel had no way to comply with what the rules state 28%  28%  [ 24 ]
Problem is the rules, not the stewards 5%  5%  [ 4 ]
Total votes : 87
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:04 am 
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So far no one has actually said that Villeneuve should have been punished for that maneuver at 0:31 in the video above. Even though he rejoined the track unsafely, most people shrugged it off as “that’s racing”.


This obsession with penalties some people have (when it suits them) is killing F1.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:24 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
So far no one has actually said that Villeneuve should have been punished for that maneuver at 0:31 in the video above. Even though he rejoined the track unsafely, most people shrugged it off as “that’s racing”.


This obsession with penalties some people have (when it suits them) is killing F1.

No one is commenting because it's not a similar incident. Let's see what Sebastian had to say about the incident in Japan last year.



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:25 am 
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A "racing incident" is one that doesn't break the rules, and we already have them regularly. The stewards' job remains to enforce the rules as they are written.

If the stewards enforce the rules on a case by case basis according to what what is "good for the sport", F1 will cease to be a sport.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:26 am 
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Blake wrote:
You are right, you are not Mario Andretti. However, you are entitled to your opinion.
;)

If we eliminate "racing incidents" out of F1, replacing them with penalties for every incident, the sport of F1 will die. It is easy to find fault in virtually every incident if that is what you wish the sport to be...It seems some are leaning in that direction...when convenient.

No we have laid out rules that we want to be ignored when convenient.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:27 am 
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“I’m not a fan of penalties”

That video isn’t helping your case much.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:39 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote:
No for the reason I gave and the two incidents are different.

What Hill did is different from what Hamilton did (one slammed on the brakes, the other tried to go into a closing gap). Villeneuve's mistake is identical to Vettel.

pokerman wrote:
Seems like one of your go to guys Wurz has come out and said that the stewards had no other option but to penalise Vettel.

I'm not making any argument from authority right now, but if you want to go down that route, the vast majority of drivers still think the penalty was nonsense.

Hill wasn't squeezed of the track whilst the stewards applied the rules in the manner that the teams asked for which has nothing to do with what some ex drivers might think.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:42 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
jimmyj wrote:
I agree with those of you who say "just a racing incident". I feel no penalty had been assigned.

:nod: :thumbup:

People who support the penalty decision here want every little incident penalized, which will be the death of racing.

Strange how it wasn't the death of the sport when Verstappen got penalised for a similar incident against Kimi, even Vettel supported the decision.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:45 am 
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j man wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Seems like one of your go to guys Wurz has come out and said that the stewards had no other option but to penalise Vettel.

Note the wording. "They had no option but to penalise Vettel" is not equivalent to "the penalty was right". The stewards applied the rules correctly, but I think what many people here are arguing is that the rules are poorly written as they make no distinction between a car uncontrollably spearing across the track into the path of another and a driver actively deciding to swerve across and put his rival in the wall.

The stewards ruled that Vettel was in control of his car when he continued to squeeze Hamilton towards the barrier.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:50 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
“I’m not a fan of penalties”

That video isn’t helping your case much.

It's not about whether he's a fan. He points out that it was a penalty!


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:57 am 
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Bobafett wrote:
Okay.. First.. Let's everyone stop and take a breath here, I know some are saying the rules state X, yand z but but that sounds like using the letter of the law against the spirit of the law

but as I said on other tracks it may have been easy for Hamilton to run wide and maybe even pass

And I'd love them to do computer simulations to show what if he did other things and how many would in ve him barrelling into the wall collecting Hamilton or damaging how own car in other ways

But an important thing is neither crashed and both fought to the flag. Penalty severity should be based on the end result

I saw it was he came off the grasss and tried to get away but the back fishtail Ed a bit.. But what do I know I'm just a Scottish guy with no inside kniwlwdge

The idea that Vettel was so out of control that he risked crashing into the outside barrier is somewhat groundless bearing in mind he was on the throttle as soon as he was off the grass, the rules were applied how the teams wanted for them to be applied.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:00 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
“I’m not a fan of penalties”

That video isn’t helping your case much.

It's not about whether he's a fan. He points out that it was a penalty!

He doesn’t seem to agree with it though.

He says “I don’t know” and “I’m not a fan of penalties”

I mean, Verstappen in Japan was in a lot more control of his car than Vettel in Canada, and Seb still is unsure on whether or not it should have been a penalty.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:04 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
So far no one has actually said that Villeneuve should have been punished for that maneuver at 0:31 in the video above. Even though he rejoined the track unsafely, most people shrugged it off as “that’s racing”.


This obsession with penalties some people have (when it suits them) is killing F1.

It's clearly been said that the incident was not the same, what was more the same was the Verstappen/Kimi incident for which Verstappen got a 5 second penalty.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:08 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
“I’m not a fan of penalties”

That video isn’t helping your case much.

It's not about whether he's a fan. He points out that it was a penalty!

He doesn’t seem to agree with it though.

He says “I don’t know” and “I’m not a fan of penalties”

I mean, Verstappen in Japan was in a lot more control of his car than Vettel in Canada, and Seb still is unsure on whether or not it should have been a penalty.

You know what man; I'm just gonna move on from this one. I get that you're not happy about the penalty and you're not alone. Most fans are not happy about it for one reason or another. It's in the past now.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:10 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
You are right, you are not Mario Andretti. However, you are entitled to your opinion.
;)

If we eliminate "racing incidents" out of F1, replacing them with penalties for every incident, the sport of F1 will die. It is easy to find fault in virtually every incident if that is what you wish the sport to be...It seems some are leaning in that direction...when convenient.

No we have laid out rules that we want to be ignored when convenient.


Indeed. That is my point.
;)

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:11 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
“I’m not a fan of penalties”

That video isn’t helping your case much.

It's not about whether he's a fan. He points out that it was a penalty!

He doesn’t seem to agree with it though.

He says “I don’t know” and “I’m not a fan of penalties”

I mean, Verstappen in Japan was in a lot more control of his car than Vettel in Canada, and Seb still is unsure on whether or not it should have been a penalty.

Vettel said that Verstappen didn't help himself which means he had little defence against the penalty, he also said it wasn't a gentleman thing to do.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:23 am 
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Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
You are right, you are not Mario Andretti. However, you are entitled to your opinion.
;)

If we eliminate "racing incidents" out of F1, replacing them with penalties for every incident, the sport of F1 will die. It is easy to find fault in virtually every incident if that is what you wish the sport to be...It seems some are leaning in that direction...when convenient.

No we have laid out rules that we want to be ignored when convenient.


Indeed. That is my point.
;)

I'm not sure that it is, without rules you have anarchy and penalties for every incident doesn't actually exist.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:42 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
You are right, you are not Mario Andretti. However, you are entitled to your opinion.
;)

If we eliminate "racing incidents" out of F1, replacing them with penalties for every incident, the sport of F1 will die. It is easy to find fault in virtually every incident if that is what you wish the sport to be...It seems some are leaning in that direction...when convenient.

No we have laid out rules that we want to be ignored when convenient.


Indeed. That is my point.
;)

I'm not sure that it is, without rules you have anarchy and penalties for every incident doesn't actually exist.

The point is, poker, that we have rules that are enforced at some times, and not at others. That is a distinct LACK of consistancy.
This time rules have been enforced, and they benefit Lewis, and the Hamilton fans are estatic. Previous similar situations, have been deemed racing incidents, and the so-called culprit was not punished. Now you may argue it, and I have no doubt at least one of your fellow Hamiltionians will, but I would bet my next pension check, that were the roles reversed, this same debate would be taking place, and you would not be preaching on the righteousness of the penalty as you are now..even claiming "anarchy" without the penalty? It would not be only the drivers who would flip-cool positions...

The point that I have tried repeatedly to make is that this was a racing incident, nothing more. No one crashed, no one was hurt...

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:00 am 
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Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
You are right, you are not Mario Andretti. However, you are entitled to your opinion.
;)

If we eliminate "racing incidents" out of F1, replacing them with penalties for every incident, the sport of F1 will die. It is easy to find fault in virtually every incident if that is what you wish the sport to be...It seems some are leaning in that direction...when convenient.

No we have laid out rules that we want to be ignored when convenient.


Indeed. That is my point.
;)

I'm not sure that it is, without rules you have anarchy and penalties for every incident doesn't actually exist.

The point is, poker, that we have rules that are enforced at some times, and not at others. That is a distinct LACK of consistancy.
This time rules have been enforced, and they benefit Lewis, and the Hamilton fans are estatic. Previous similar situations, have been deemed racing incidents, and the so-called culprit was not punished. Now you may argue it, and I have no doubt at least one of your fellow Hamiltionians will, but I would bet my next pension check, that were the roles reversed, this same debate would be taking place, and you would not be preaching on the righteousness of the penalty as you are now..even claiming "anarchy" without the penalty? It would not be only the drivers who would flip-cool positions...

The point that I have tried repeatedly to make is that this was a racing incident, nothing more. No one crashed, no one was hurt...

That's the whole point the stewards have been asked to be more consistent so to that end they are being black and white with the rules, this I am guessing is quite a new rule that's been implemented and following the guidelines they had to penalise Vettel, they followed the letter of the law.

Of the incident itself I was relieved that Vettel didn't crash into Hamilton, it was close, but I had no idea if he would get penalised for it and wouldn't have been calling for a penalty if he hadn't, that's in the hands of the stewards who unlike many of us are not biased and I say this in particular because for the good of the sport a Ferrari win would have been preferable, but obviously there was no outside pressure to turn a blind eye to the incident.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:25 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
So far no one has actually said that Villeneuve should have been punished for that maneuver at 0:31 in the video above. Even though he rejoined the track unsafely, most people shrugged it off as “that’s racing”.


This obsession with penalties some people have (when it suits them) is killing F1.

Had that incident occured today it may well have resulted in a penalty. But it didn't; it was over 20 years ago. Rules / regulations were different.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:26 am 
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The problem lies with the revolving door of stewards. Given that not all stewards have the same experience and formed opinions of what is and what shouldn’t be legal, we have a floating scale of inconsistency that is here to stay.

I am the mostest hugimongous cannot Mario, but I disagree with him vehemently on this and I felt immediately that Vettel’s outward drift was a tad wee bit harsh and we’ve seen other drivers go off there and rejoin a bit tighter to the left. Additionally, the offending driver ended up putting both drivers in that situation by making a mistake, which the pressuring driver was in the process of taking full advantage Aaawe cleanly as possible and well within the rules, and were it not for his own actions to avoid a collision, the day would have been over for both. So while I do agree that Vettel wasn’t being malicious, and was doing all he could to stay in control as best as possible, the driver behind was also penalized TWICE having done nothing wrong l, and everything right. Not making a mistake gave Hamilton an obvious advantage that he couldn’t capitalize on because he had to slam on the brakes to such a degree that the guy who made a mistake once again gained an unfair advantage.

We already see drivers not respect track limits because the extra tarmac is there, now we want them to disregard more rules? I call BS on this incident causing a further decline in viewership in the sport and rather, incidents that create controversy actually accomplish the opposite in that word spreads and people hear about it and share with their friends and before you know it you have another few million people watching. I’ve already created a new fan last month and he called to ask me about this penalty while having guests in his house and they were all talking about it as I was explaining.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:02 am 
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Johnson wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
I just realized that Ricciardo did in fact compare the incident to Monaco 2016:

"If he pulls a little further to the left, he'll spin. When he brakes on the grass, he'll spin too. There was not much room for Lewis but still enough.I had an identical situation with Lewis in 2016 Monte Carlo. He had to go through the emergency exit and almost pushed me into the wall on his return. With me it was tighter than now with him. He didn't get a penalty. That was a good thing. It was a hard racing."

https://www.gpfans.com/en/articles/4075 ... ocked-him/


Ricciardo needs to brush up on the rules, the track is defined by the white lines. Hamilton left him just over 1 car width. Vettel left Hamilton zero track, he was on the white line himself.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oDaTXa-IMc Did he????


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:11 am 
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Salvadoray wrote:
Johnson wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
I just realized that Ricciardo did in fact compare the incident to Monaco 2016:

"If he pulls a little further to the left, he'll spin. When he brakes on the grass, he'll spin too. There was not much room for Lewis but still enough.I had an identical situation with Lewis in 2016 Monte Carlo. He had to go through the emergency exit and almost pushed me into the wall on his return. With me it was tighter than now with him. He didn't get a penalty. That was a good thing. It was a hard racing."

https://www.gpfans.com/en/articles/4075 ... ocked-him/


Ricciardo needs to brush up on the rules, the track is defined by the white lines. Hamilton left him just over 1 car width. Vettel left Hamilton zero track, he was on the white line himself.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oDaTXa-IMc Did he????


Yes he did.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:08 am 
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pokerman wrote:
j man wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Seems like one of your go to guys Wurz has come out and said that the stewards had no other option but to penalise Vettel.

Note the wording. "They had no option but to penalise Vettel" is not equivalent to "the penalty was right". The stewards applied the rules correctly, but I think what many people here are arguing is that the rules are poorly written as they make no distinction between a car uncontrollably spearing across the track into the path of another and a driver actively deciding to swerve across and put his rival in the wall.

The stewards ruled that Vettel was in control of his car when he continued to squeeze Hamilton towards the barrier.

Well, considering he was on the throttle and accelerating, its a pretty weak argument to claim that he wasnt in control


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:20 am 
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pokerman wrote:
That's the whole point the stewards have been asked to be more consistent so to that end they are being black and white with the rules, this I am guessing is quite a new rule that's been implemented and following the guidelines they had to penalise Vettel, they followed the letter of the law.
.


Blake wrote:
The point is, poker, that we have rules that are enforced at some times, and not at others. That is a distinct LACK of consistancy.
This time rules have been enforced, and they benefit Lewis, and the Hamilton fans are estatic. Previous similar situations, have been deemed racing incidents, and the so-called culprit was not punished.


F1 MERCENARY wrote:
The problem lies with the revolving door of stewards. Given that not all stewards have the same experience and formed opinions of what is and what shouldn’t be legal, we have a floating scale of inconsistency that is here to stay.


A strong focus on stewards consistency, the guidelines that have been implemented on this occasion are going to be interpreted slightly differently each and every GP as F1 MERCENARY has pointed out simply because the personnel change. I think we are in a period of change in F1.
Its interesting that there seems to be a sliding scale of opinion on the intervention with less recent drivers railing at the decision quoting racing incident, (Mario Andretti etc) and recent ones (Rosberg, Palmer) supporting the penalty.

I'm going to shamelessly repeat my view that the FIA culture is moving parallel to worldwide culture to make the "nanny state" enforceable rather than optional. I'm citing the recently implemented halos, tethers and other safety features that Andretti and his like would have declined as 'soft'.

Furthermore this comment is in relation to track limits,

mikeyg123 wrote:
The gap left to the wall isn't really relevant.


However, it does become relevant if the message from above is keep it clean. I think that F1 is stumbling through a period of change and I also think that Vettel is of the same opinion given his comments after the incident.

Vettel said, ""I really love my racing. I'm a purist. I love going back and looking at the old times, the old cars, the old drivers. It's an honour when you have the chance to meet them and talk to them; they're heroes in a way.

"But I just wish I was maybe as good, doing what I do, but being in their time rather than today.

"It's not just about that decision today, there's other decisions. Just hear the wording when people come on the radio, that we have now. We have an official language; I think it's all wrong."

Stewarding needs some tweaks but realistically they are unlikely to happen. F1 and the FIA are struggling to get in place the requirements for the major changes that are are being planned to the cars for 2021 the sporting and technical rules are simply not ready for publication.

On that basis stewarding is down the list somewhat so expect more of the same.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:37 am 
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Marc Priestly has done a good video on it.



And as he has mentioned in the video and as I have been saying to people on reddit and other forms.

The Stewards didn't rob us of a race.
Hamilton didn't rob us of a race.
Vettel making yet another mistake is what robbed us of a race.

Yet somehow out of all this madness, Vettel's mistake is getting overlooked. People are saying penalties ruin racing, bad driving ruins races just as much! I think people are now so desperate for anyone but Mercedes to win that they are willing to throw the rulebook out as long as it means there's a new winner.

Some people don't want hard racing. They don't even want clean racing. They just want anyone but Mercedes to win at any cost. Fairness be damned.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:00 am 
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shoot999 wrote:
Salvadoray wrote:
Johnson wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
I just realized that Ricciardo did in fact compare the incident to Monaco 2016:

"If he pulls a little further to the left, he'll spin. When he brakes on the grass, he'll spin too. There was not much room for Lewis but still enough.I had an identical situation with Lewis in 2016 Monte Carlo. He had to go through the emergency exit and almost pushed me into the wall on his return. With me it was tighter than now with him. He didn't get a penalty. That was a good thing. It was a hard racing."

https://www.gpfans.com/en/articles/4075 ... ocked-him/


Ricciardo needs to brush up on the rules, the track is defined by the white lines. Hamilton left him just over 1 car width. Vettel left Hamilton zero track, he was on the white line himself.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oDaTXa-IMc Did he????


Yes he did.


Racefans look at the differences between the two:
https://www.racefans.net/2019/06/12/why ... in-canada/

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:02 am 
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thermal wrote:
I think the function of the stewards is to penalize flagrantly unsafe moves not honest mistakes as result of hard racing. What happened at #CanadaGp is not acceptable at this level of our great sport. @F1

https://twitter.com/MarioAndretti/statu ... 2631928832
I understand Mario does not believe that Vettel squeezed Hamilton deliberately, as the stewards are supposed to have concluded. Since we haven't seen proof it was deliberate, I can only agree with Mario.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:07 am 
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Junglist wrote:
Marc Priestly has done a good video on it.



And as he has mentioned in the video and as I have been saying to people on reddit and other forms.

The Stewards didn't rob us of a race.
Hamilton didn't rob us of a race.
Vettel making yet another mistake is what robbed us of a race.

Yet somehow out of all this madness, Vettel's mistake is getting overlooked. People are saying penalties ruin racing, bad driving ruins races just as much! I think people are now so desperate for anyone but Mercedes to win that they are willing to throw the rulebook out as long as it means there's a new winner.

Some people don't want hard racing. They don't even want clean racing. They just want anyone but Mercedes to win at any cost. Fairness be damned.


We have a regular outcry after a stewards decision followed by a 'change in emphasis' on how races will be conducted in the future. And who benefits? The most skillful experienced drivers on the grid. F1 had its #MeToo moment and we condemn touching of any kind. Result? Hamilton gets the slightest touch, (aided and abetted by himself :twisted: ), cuts the corner or chicane (Max/Monaco), and sails off into the distance. Now after this so called outcry there will be a change in emphasis to give the lead driver a bit more leeway when he makes a mistake. And who is generally leading races these days?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:20 am 
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I think Andretti is mainly making a point that rules can get in the way of the sport being good to watch.

Penalties decided after the race has finished for instance. Its not good to wake up the following day and find that yesterday's podium has been changed.
Ideally, you want errors to be punished straight away. eg. if Vettel slides off, then ideally, he should not be able to gain from that and should only be able to rejoin the track having lost time/and/or/position - that would involve redesigning run-off areas etc.

Decision need to be made quickly, such as giving a position back - so that is another reason for having professional stewards making the decisions.

We see VAR being used now in soccer and Hawkeye in tennis. It is part of sports now to try to make quick rulings to keep things fair.

In the soccer World Cup now in France, a defender has to now put her arms in an un-natural position when defending in the penalty box, to avoid a penalty being given for contacting the ball with her arm. That is the sort of stupid rule that Andretti is getting at. It spoils the racing and the spectacle. The rule currently exists and can be applied in the way it was with Vettel. The better solution is to be able to deal with what happens in racing in ways that do not seem to spoil the entertainment value of racing.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:01 am 
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Have merged the "Mario Andretti on the Vettel penalty" thread in here. Many drivers have voiced various opinions on the incident. If we start a thread for each of them then the front page will get full very quickly.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:00 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
pokerman wrote:
That's the whole point the stewards have been asked to be more consistent so to that end they are being black and white with the rules, this I am guessing is quite a new rule that's been implemented and following the guidelines they had to penalise Vettel, they followed the letter of the law.
.


Blake wrote:
The point is, poker, that we have rules that are enforced at some times, and not at others. That is a distinct LACK of consistancy.
This time rules have been enforced, and they benefit Lewis, and the Hamilton fans are estatic. Previous similar situations, have been deemed racing incidents, and the so-called culprit was not punished.


F1 MERCENARY wrote:
The problem lies with the revolving door of stewards. Given that not all stewards have the same experience and formed opinions of what is and what shouldn’t be legal, we have a floating scale of inconsistency that is here to stay.


A strong focus on stewards consistency, the guidelines that have been implemented on this occasion are going to be interpreted slightly differently each and every GP as F1 MERCENARY has pointed out simply because the personnel change. I think we are in a period of change in F1.
Its interesting that there seems to be a sliding scale of opinion on the intervention with less recent drivers railing at the decision quoting racing incident, (Mario Andretti etc) and recent ones (Rosberg, Palmer) supporting the penalty.

I'm going to shamelessly repeat my view that the FIA culture is moving parallel to worldwide culture to make the "nanny state" enforceable rather than optional. I'm citing the recently implemented halos, tethers and other safety features that Andretti and his like would have declined as 'soft'.

Furthermore this comment is in relation to track limits,

mikeyg123 wrote:
The gap left to the wall isn't really relevant.


However, it does become relevant if the message from above is keep it clean. I think that F1 is stumbling through a period of change and I also think that Vettel is of the same opinion given his comments after the incident.

Vettel said, ""I really love my racing. I'm a purist. I love going back and looking at the old times, the old cars, the old drivers. It's an honour when you have the chance to meet them and talk to them; they're heroes in a way.

"But I just wish I was maybe as good, doing what I do, but being in their time rather than today.

"It's not just about that decision today, there's other decisions. Just hear the wording when people come on the radio, that we have now. We have an official language; I think it's all wrong."

Stewarding needs some tweaks but realistically they are unlikely to happen. F1 and the FIA are struggling to get in place the requirements for the major changes that are are being planned to the cars for 2021 the sporting and technical rules are simply not ready for publication.

On that basis stewarding is down the list somewhat so expect more of the same.

The same Vettel that complained about Verstappen's driving in Mexico 2016 and was ranting and raving at Charlie Whiting?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:00 pm 
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Junglist wrote:
The Stewards didn't rob us of a race.
Hamilton didn't rob us of a race.
Vettel making yet another mistake is what robbed us of a race.

Yet somehow out of all this madness, Vettel's mistake is getting overlooked. People are saying penalties ruin racing, bad driving ruins races just as much! I think people are now so desperate for anyone but Mercedes to win that they are willing to throw the rulebook out as long as it means there's a new winner.

It's not being overlooked it's just irrelevant to whether you think the penalty was correct or not.

Mistakes dont make bad races, they make great races, this is what we wanted to see a few years ago, drivers being forced to drive on the edge and make mistakes. We saw Hamilton make mistakes in the race too and it's great racing, it shows they're on the edge pushing eachother.

The mistake isn't the issue here in making the race boring (much to the contrary), it's the overly harsh penalty that was not IMO appropriate.


Last edited by Black_Flag_11 on Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:13 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Yes, not worthy of a penalty though, for a number of reasons.

1. He was not in control of his car when he rejoined
2. The decision is inconsistent with past incidents of similar nature

This is a textbook definition of a racing incident.

90% is an estimate/figure of speech. The only people who agree with the penalty are Rosberg (Mercedes ambassador) and Palmer. The people who disagree are Ricciardo, Webber, Chandok, Andretti, Mansell, Brundle, Wurz, and there are more I can’t remember.


1) Are you ignoring the most recent and most similar incident between MV and KR in Hungary?

2) I'll remake my point that the two most RECENT ex-drivers support the sanction, its the current interpretation we are working with.

3) None of this is really relevant since if Vettel makes no error, there is no incident.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:15 pm 
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:20 pm 
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As a Lewis fan:

I didn't want Vettel to get a penalty, and I think it was harsh that he did, but I can see the stewards thought process behind why he got one.
I also don't think Max deserved one at Japan.
I cannot understand how Ricciardo didn't at least get investigated for weaving.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:21 pm 
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aice wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
Salvadoray wrote:
Johnson wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
I just realized that Ricciardo did in fact compare the incident to Monaco 2016:

"If he pulls a little further to the left, he'll spin. When he brakes on the grass, he'll spin too. There was not much room for Lewis but still enough.I had an identical situation with Lewis in 2016 Monte Carlo. He had to go through the emergency exit and almost pushed me into the wall on his return. With me it was tighter than now with him. He didn't get a penalty. That was a good thing. It was a hard racing."

https://www.gpfans.com/en/articles/4075 ... ocked-him/


Ricciardo needs to brush up on the rules, the track is defined by the white lines. Hamilton left him just over 1 car width. Vettel left Hamilton zero track, he was on the white line himself.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oDaTXa-IMc Did he????


Yes he did.


Racefans look at the differences between the two:
https://www.racefans.net/2019/06/12/why ... in-canada/

Yeah that's explained a lot better than what ever I managed to do, with the comparison incidents we've seen brought forward in this thread the Hamilton/Ricciardo incident is similar to the Hill/Villenueve incident and the Hamilton/Vettel incident is similar to the Verstappen/Kimi incident.

Also again the contradictory views of Vettel are highlighted that's why we have stewards making the decisions and not drivers or fans.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:26 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
thermal wrote:
I think the function of the stewards is to penalize flagrantly unsafe moves not honest mistakes as result of hard racing. What happened at #CanadaGp is not acceptable at this level of our great sport. @F1

https://twitter.com/MarioAndretti/statu ... 2631928832
I understand Mario does not believe that Vettel squeezed Hamilton deliberately, as the stewards are supposed to have concluded. Since we haven't seen proof it was deliberate, I can only agree with Mario.

No it wasn't deliberate whilst Vettel was looking in his mirror at the time?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:50 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Yes, not worthy of a penalty though, for a number of reasons.

1. He was not in control of his car when he rejoined
2. The decision is inconsistent with past incidents of similar nature

This is a textbook definition of a racing incident.

90% is an estimate/figure of speech. The only people who agree with the penalty are Rosberg (Mercedes ambassador) and Palmer. The people who disagree are Ricciardo, Webber, Chandok, Andretti, Mansell, Brundle, Wurz, and there are more I can’t remember.


1) Are you ignoring the most recent and most similar incident between MV and KR in Hungary?

2) I'll remake my point that the two most RECENT ex-drivers support the sanction, its the current interpretation we are working with.

3) None of this is really relevant since if Vettel makes no error, there is no incident.


Button's last race was after Rosberg's and he said the penalty was harsh and it was a racing incident! Just saying!!!


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:54 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
thermal wrote:
I think the function of the stewards is to penalize flagrantly unsafe moves not honest mistakes as result of hard racing. What happened at #CanadaGp is not acceptable at this level of our great sport. @F1

https://twitter.com/MarioAndretti/statu ... 2631928832
I understand Mario does not believe that Vettel squeezed Hamilton deliberately, as the stewards are supposed to have concluded. Since we haven't seen proof it was deliberate, I can only agree with Mario.

No it wasn't deliberate whilst Vettel was looking in his mirror at the time?
Does looking in the mirror by itself prove that the squeeze was deliberate? Or was there further proof?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:00 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
thermal wrote:
I think the function of the stewards is to penalize flagrantly unsafe moves not honest mistakes as result of hard racing. What happened at #CanadaGp is not acceptable at this level of our great sport. @F1

https://twitter.com/MarioAndretti/statu ... 2631928832
I understand Mario does not believe that Vettel squeezed Hamilton deliberately, as the stewards are supposed to have concluded. Since we haven't seen proof it was deliberate, I can only agree with Mario.

No it wasn't deliberate whilst Vettel was looking in his mirror at the time?
Does looking in the mirror by itself prove that the squeeze was deliberate? Or was there further proof?

This whole mirror business - was he actually looking in the mirror? Is it possible that his head may have been inclined that way for another reason? Just asking...

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