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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 11:29 pm 
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Just watched the race and the stupidity of some drivers is preposterously irresponsible and downright dangerous! What a bunch of hacks! It's sad to see some of the drivers in this crap series stuck driving alongside maniacs in the field. It's bad enough the car is junk so to have people making bonehead decisions just makes things worse.

Ryan Hunter Ray even said in his interview that he felt he was half way up the inside of Newgarden going into turn 4... Uhm maybe half way up his rear wheel! Just sickens me to see such poor decisions riddling the entire field. Granted this road course is notoriously too narrow, but still, use your head people!! RHR's car was clearly the quickest all day and he just needed to be a little patient and bed have checked out!

On a side note, Montoya drove well all day and finished 4th! Hope this is just the beginning of his rise to the front in open wheels once more.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 11:33 pm 
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Just watched until Will Power sent Paugenod in the wall and excaped without penalty. That was sickening. Is this guy protected by someone, or what?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 11:36 pm 
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I'd much rather watch a race like today than 22 cars in procession at Monaco. Just saying...

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 11:44 pm 
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Pedrosa_4_Ever wrote:
I'd much rather watch a race like today than 22 cars in procession at Monaco. Just saying...

I don't think you get the point the OP is making. It isn't about a lack of excitement or anything, it's a lack of talent. There was some really really dumb moves out there today by people who should have known much better.

With the exception of dunderheads like Maldonado F1 seems to have a much higher standard of driving in it's top echelon than IndyCar does.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 11:55 pm 
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I agree it that accident didn't have to happen, it was a Nascar like move and I didn't expect it from Ryan. Power was threatening but I didn't expect to see him get rattled into making such a bad decision considering how he was running.
Good to see Montoya finish in the top 5 and I understand he was running well early on but a badly timed pitstop set him back. If he continues like this he should be a threat by the end of May.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 1:14 am 
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Laura23 wrote:
Pedrosa_4_Ever wrote:
I'd much rather watch a race like today than 22 cars in procession at Monaco. Just saying...

I don't think you get the point the OP is making. It isn't about a lack of excitement or anything, it's a lack of talent. There was some really really dumb moves out there today by people who should have known much better.

With the exception of dunderheads like Maldonado F1 seems to have a much higher standard of driving in it's top echelon than IndyCar does.


I disagree... very much so.

This idea that F1 has the corner on great talent has been promoted by F1 and F1 forums for ages... and is very self-serving, but not necessarily realistic. I would agree the there is some great talent in F1... but there is a lot of talent that I do not believe anything special as far as top level racing goes. Indy has some top talent as well... as does LMS... as does WRC... as does NASCAR... as does Aussie V8s... It is only natural to think that the drivers in your favorite series are the best... I am sure that the NASCAR fans think their drivers are the best, or that WRC fans think that theirs are the best... .the truth is each series has top drivers, drivers who have chosen that series for a reason.... and for all we know, some of, perhaps even several of, those drivers might do just fine in F1 if they had the desire and the right situation.

These drivers today made a couple of mistakes... so too do F1 drivers. They race in a different series, with different standards, different cars (and I also disagree with aria that they are crap... given the majority of the field in F1 this year, no F1 fan should be calling cars from other series crap). To say that the IRL drivers lack talent is very unfair, and, in my opinion, quite untrue. Oh, and please don't give me the crap about F1 drivers/F1 rejects going to IRL or NASCAR and kicking donkey... even though once in a while an F1 driver has had some success, it is also true that F1 experience is no guarantee of success in other series as we have often seen as well.

The drivers at Long Beach were aggressive, and yes, in a couple of situations too much so. It is a tough, narrow track and at least they are racing.......

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 3:56 am 
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Ok Blake,

So you mean to even dare propose that Dallara has made a car that you'd consider to be "good"??!?!??

C'mon, the only reason they outlasted Reynard and Lola (my favorite of all time) is because they jumped into a dwindling series that agreed to run a singular chassis across the board and they sold enough of them to just keep their head above water the first 4 years of their partnership with IRL. In the 5th year they renegotiated their price and that's when they finally found themselves on solid ground.

HOWEVER... The chassis they produced was ALWAYS inferior to Penske, Lola, the cash strapped Reynard and even the Swift! It wasn't even close.

In 2009 HRT commissioned Dallara to build them an F1 Chassis which, although a gorgeous car, was the worst in the field. Once again, Dallara not up to the task.

Then ChampCar disbanded and with just the single series and absolutely NO COMPETITION, Dallara sold even more units. Then IRL wanted to change things up and began shopping around for the chassis of tomorrow and Dallara had to pitch against a plethora of other manufacturers because the head honchos wanted something better. And though they ultimately won the contract to supply the new car, they were ever so close to losing it until they came back with a more palatable figure per unit. The new car has some interesting tidbits and features, but overall it is a vastly clumsy design and leaves quite a bit to be desired. Could it be worse? Sure, absolutely. Could it be better? By a long shot!!

As for today's antics, the drivers were indeed in NASCAR mode and there was all sorts of bumping and rubbing and outright dumb and irresponsibly dangerous moves being pulled all race long. I think the rear cowlings encourages these guys to drive with less finness and a bit more aggression than if the rear tires were exposed. Just not something I've ever seen in my 35+ years of watching anything open wheel.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 5:59 am 
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Arai,

I don't really care if the Dallara was chosen over something you preferred... be it Reynard or Lola or whatever. I am more concerned about the racing, and as IRL is pretty much a spec series, then that is what we deal with. I have seen IRL put on some good races in the past few years, and watching the series pretty much balance road courses and ovals I am enjoying IRL more than I have in some time. Also, I like the Dallara cars in appearance, especially as F1 has gone from ugly to uglier to uglier yet.

I don't care either if a Dallara failed in a previous F1 attempt or not, that was then, this is now. IRL is not F1... F1 cars would stink at many IRL races because they are not designed to handle the requirements that IRL cars must face. Different series = different demands. So, Dallara's failure in 2009 in F1 is a totally meaningless factor.

I am not an engineer, and I really don't give much of a hoot about the engineering of the race cars, so maybe it is more important to you how well Dallara fared in F1, and if you choose to connect dots and say that because they failed in F1 (a dedicated, long effort... not) means that any any subsequent car is bound to be a failure for any series they choose to design a car for...............well, that is up to you.

You have made it clear that you don't like NASCAR, and with not-near-as-clever-as-you-think demeaning rework of the name shows me a total lack of respect for the sport and the drivers.... Don't watch it, nobody forces you to do so, but why the need to be insulting about the sport and the drivers? IF truth be told F1 could learn a LOT from NASCAR...

As for me, I have been to IRL races including the Indy 500 with the Dallaras and enjoyed it greatly. I have been to a variety of NASCAR races and enjoyed them greatly as well. And I have been to F1 races and guess what, I enjoyed them greatly too. Never have I found a need to create insulting names for any of them... I guess that is yet another place where you and I differ.
;)

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 6:12 am 
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I only have one thing to say..... FTG


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 6:28 am 
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Are there any videos of the incidents?

I started watching the race but went to bed because it was so dull. Probably not helped by the coverage; You don't really get any idea of what is going on by watching and listening to the commentators. The last straw was an ad break followed by a 30 second interview straight back into another ad break!


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 6:56 am 
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adverts have ruined tv


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 7:25 am 
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Why do people always assume naiveness or ignorance are behind someone disliking a series?

Because I refer to it as NASCRAP it's disrespectful to drivers who disrespect the very essence of the sport I grew up loving? Because a Hollywood blockbuster changed the perception of the majority of up and coming drivers who think "rubbin' is racin'" and the powers that be turned a blind eye to it for the same reasons hockey doesn't police, and actually allow fighting? I guess whatever increases ratings huh?

Sorry, NASCAR is a series where drivers add unnecessary risk to an already mightily risky venture because they flat out don't have the skill and talent to pass cars on track cleanly. So instead, let's bump the guy I can't manage to get past and who cares if he goes flying into the wall, or flips multiple times or maybe even sends some debris flying into the stands and place even more peoe in harms way. Yeah, no thanks.

I realize there are some quality drivers in NASCAR and I actually really like many of them, but to turn a blind eye and shrug the shoulders and chalk it up to the now commonplace cop out and simply allow it to continue to be the supposed nature of the beast is flat out wrong. I remember a NASCAR where drivers drove cleanly and skillfully and worked their buts off over dozens and dozens of laps to figure out the guy ahead in order to make fair passes without putting them I to the wall. Guys like Bill Elliot, Dale Earnhardt Sr., Richard Petty, Wally Dallenback, Yarborough, Wallace, Martin, Allison, Kulwicki, Bodine, Marlin, Gant, Labonte, the Waltrips, and many others who drove brilliantly every week without increasing the risk factor by plowing through people. What's more, these guys did it in factory cars modified to race on the track according to specs. Why do I mention this? Because those cars were inherently less stellar than true race cars built from the ground up and they were difficult to drive and easier to lose control of. And I realize they had there share of accidents and pile ups, but it was almost always a slight mistake or misjudgment which is entirely different from what some of these morons are doing today!!!

So for anyone who enjoys NASCAR, by all means, please do so. I respect your decision to enjoy it to the fullest. But don't get but hurt if someone else detests it with good reason and refers to it by a clever name.

And though we're stuck with the Dallara it always was and is inferior equipment and that's that and the racing does indeed suffer as a result. When I watch racing I want to see the best cars, engines, drivers and teams duking it out. I think that always beats out the best of what we're stuck with.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 8:27 am 
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Let's not get into a debate about the quality of drivers, I firmly think there are great drivers in many motorsport disciplines. Maybe there are too many drivers in Indycar series? Then again I suppose there has always been a large field for Indy and NASCAR alike.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 1:04 pm 
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Arai_or_Nothing wrote:
Why do people always assume naiveness or ignorance are behind someone disliking a series?

Because I refer to it as NASCRAP it's disrespectful to drivers who disrespect the very essence of the sport I grew up loving? Because a Hollywood blockbuster changed the perception of the majority of up and coming drivers who think "rubbin' is racin'" and the powers that be turned a blind eye to it for the same reasons hockey doesn't police, and actually allow fighting? I guess whatever increases ratings huh?

Sorry, NASCAR is a series where drivers add unnecessary risk to an already mightily risky venture because they flat out don't have the skill and talent to pass cars on track cleanly. So instead, let's bump the guy I can't manage to get past and who cares if he goes flying into the wall, or flips multiple times or maybe even sends some debris flying into the stands and place even more peoe in harms way. Yeah, no thanks.

I realize there are some quality drivers in NASCAR and I actually really like many of them, but to turn a blind eye and shrug the shoulders and chalk it up to the now commonplace cop out and simply allow it to continue to be the supposed nature of the beast is flat out wrong. I remember a NASCAR where drivers drove cleanly and skillfully and worked their buts off over dozens and dozens of laps to figure out the guy ahead in order to make fair passes without putting them I to the wall. Guys like Bill Elliot, Dale Earnhardt Sr., Richard Petty, Wally Dallenback, Yarborough, Wallace, Martin, Allison, Kulwicki, Bodine, Marlin, Gant, Labonte, the Waltrips, and many others who drove brilliantly every week without increasing the risk factor by plowing through people. What's more, these guys did it in factory cars modified to race on the track according to specs. Why do I mention this? Because those cars were inherently less stellar than true race cars built from the ground up and they were difficult to drive and easier to lose control of. And I realize they had there share of accidents and pile ups, but it was almost always a slight mistake or misjudgment which is entirely different from what some of these morons are doing today!!!


I'd say it's more "Rose colored glasses" than ignorance or naivety.

Rubbin' is Racin' was around long before "Days of Thunder" and to act like bumping or putting some pressure on another cars rear quarter panel is something new is silly, and you can't get all bent about what the Busch boys are doing while hailing Earnhart Sr., Yarborough, Waltrip as being clean drivers who made all of their passes on merit.

I will agree with you about the old production based cars. When they started to move away from that model is when I lost interest and pretty much stopped watching about 1980, but I don't see a lot of difference between how much contact goes on today and what went on 30 or more years ago.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 1:44 pm 
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Just saw the race recording.
You may defend the drivers or their quality but what amazes me is the governing body and their decisions. Mistakes should have consequences. Not just for that race but lesson teaching consequences. That is how F1 became safer. People love to bash FIA but their hard stand on safety if why F1 is safer today. This kind of BS even from experienced driver will not be tolerated in F1 and that is where the difference lies.
Indy needs overhaul at the the top level. When the authorities start to come down hard on drivers which has big costs in a season, you will see change in driver's behaviour on the track. In the world of racing, if there are no long term consequences, people tend to forget that someone could get killed even when the recent death is not that long ago. But when they know they could not only get disqualified in that race but could face serious consequences further down the line, people will be more responsible.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 7:24 pm 
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RaggedMan wrote:
Arai_or_Nothing wrote:
Why do people always assume naiveness or ignorance are behind someone disliking a series?

Because I refer to it as NASCRAP it's disrespectful to drivers who disrespect the very essence of the sport I grew up loving? Because a Hollywood blockbuster changed the perception of the majority of up and coming drivers who think "rubbin' is racin'" and the powers that be turned a blind eye to it for the same reasons hockey doesn't police, and actually allow fighting? I guess whatever increases ratings huh?

Sorry, NASCAR is a series where drivers add unnecessary risk to an already mightily risky venture because they flat out don't have the skill and talent to pass cars on track cleanly. So instead, let's bump the guy I can't manage to get past and who cares if he goes flying into the wall, or flips multiple times or maybe even sends some debris flying into the stands and place even more peoe in harms way. Yeah, no thanks.

I realize there are some quality drivers in NASCAR and I actually really like many of them, but to turn a blind eye and shrug the shoulders and chalk it up to the now commonplace cop out and simply allow it to continue to be the supposed nature of the beast is flat out wrong. I remember a NASCAR where drivers drove cleanly and skillfully and worked their buts off over dozens and dozens of laps to figure out the guy ahead in order to make fair passes without putting them I to the wall. Guys like Bill Elliot, Dale Earnhardt Sr., Richard Petty, Wally Dallenback, Yarborough, Wallace, Martin, Allison, Kulwicki, Bodine, Marlin, Gant, Labonte, the Waltrips, and many others who drove brilliantly every week without increasing the risk factor by plowing through people. What's more, these guys did it in factory cars modified to race on the track according to specs. Why do I mention this? Because those cars were inherently less stellar than true race cars built from the ground up and they were difficult to drive and easier to lose control of. And I realize they had there share of accidents and pile ups, but it was almost always a slight mistake or misjudgment which is entirely different from what some of these morons are doing today!!!


I'd say it's more "Rose colored glasses" than ignorance or naivety.

Rubbin' is Racin' was around long before "Days of Thunder" and to act like bumping or putting some pressure on another cars rear quarter panel is something new is silly, and you can't get all bent about what the Busch boys are doing while hailing Earnhart Sr., Yarborough, Waltrip as being clean drivers who made all of their passes on merit.

I will agree with you about the old production based cars. When they started to move away from that model is when I lost interest and pretty much stopped watching about 1980, but I don't see a lot of difference between how much contact goes on today and what went on 30 or more years ago.

Once again, I never said they were perfect, but those guys didn't actively have an ace up their sleeves in the way of a bump. I realize the nature of the beast is such that there will inevitably be some sort of contact but to a point. Today's Rubbin is Racin' has taken it too far and it's an actually talent/tactic that's somewhat regarded as being a viable means of getting around someone a driver couldn't otherwise get past. I remember seeing hefty pile ups, but they were for the most part the result of a mistake as opposed to an intentional "rub", which current drivers have no qualms about implementing.

Having been on many a track on both 2 and 4 wheels, I have been spun out (on 4 wheels) by drivers who become frustrated when they cannot best my late braking and superior lines, and let me tell you it's a scary proposition to find yourself stuck as 20 other cars fly past you at speed. You literally clinch your jaw so hard you almost crack teeth and your arms and legs become so stiff you have to exhale in order to get back in gear and going once the danger has passed. I can only imagine how much more so this is amplified when the cars are "full bodied" and going over 200mph.

Toilet seat anyone?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:08 pm 
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As usual Indy delivered a great race, cant remember the last boring one but I can remember a few F1 races like that recently. At least these guys have a go at racing and only get ten goes at push to pass instead of every lap

I agree with comments about Power - he moans his donkey off about everyone else, never his fault etc but seems to get away with whatever he does

The worst crash tho was Dixon pushing Justin Wilson into the wall, felt really bad for Justin as im sure he would have won the race, but maybe as he was all over Dixon his eagerness cost him as he could probably have picked his spot to get past better


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 10:38 pm 
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jase.2 wrote:
As usual Indy delivered a great race, cant remember the last boring one but I can remember a few F1 races like that recently. At least these guys have a go at racing and only get ten goes at push to pass instead of every lap

I agree with comments about Power - he moans his donkey off about everyone else, never his fault etc but seems to get away with whatever he does

The worst crash tho was Dixon pushing Justin Wilson into the wall, felt really bad for Justin as im sure he would have won the race, but maybe as he was all over Dixon his eagerness cost him as he could probably have picked his spot to get past better


tbh I could watch a Formula 1600 race and see just as good if not better racing. I see and hear indy car fans jump up and yell that the indy car has 'the best racing ever'. But i dont see it, and i dont get excited about it. Lemme explain why i dont get excited about it. In F1, we have different cars that have different strengths and weaknesses, some are good on the straight, some or good in the corners, some are good on breaking, and some are good on acceleration. The Drivers exploit their car's strengths and their opponent's as well as managing their own weaknesses to get past eachother. In Indy Car all the cars are identical, its a spec series. I find that that makes it very difficult to get excited about a battle forming, because we know that theyre the same and have no advantage or weakness over the other. So please explain to me what makes indy car racing so great.

Is it the overtaking? sure theres alot, but its difficult to get excited about it because of what i mentioned earlier.
Is it the Unpredictability? That unpredictability doesnt exist as much as Indy fans say it does. In 2012, 13 of the 15 races were won by Ganassi, Penske, or Andretti. In 2013, 14 out of the 19 races were won by one of those three teams.
Is it the crashes? Anyone who watches racing for the crashes needs to have their head checked.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 10:59 pm 
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jase.2 wrote:
As usual Indy delivered a great race, cant remember the last boring one but I can remember a few F1 races like that recently. At least these guys have a go at racing and only get ten goes at push to pass instead of every lap

I agree with comments about Power - he moans his donkey off about everyone else, never his fault etc but seems to get away with whatever he does

The worst crash tho was Dixon pushing Justin Wilson into the wall, felt really bad for Justin as im sure he would have won the race, but maybe as he was all over Dixon his eagerness cost him as he could probably have picked his spot to get past better

To be fair to Power he said that he should have been penalised, also its interesting that cars crashing into one another is considered great racing

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 11:43 pm 
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Can someone tell me what the heck this turn martial is thinking waving a green flag?!?!?!?!?!?

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 1:48 am 
No doubt Ryan Hunter Ray made a very bad decision. He got a lot of flack from a lot of people, and in his immediate interview was very aware he screwed up. But as he explained, he saw the car in front get squirrely, and decided to shoot the gap.

I'm not defending Indycar or it's drivers, but as someone who does watch this series and follows it quite a bit, there are some big differences. In Indycar, almost all the road races are held in tight street circuits. All of those street circuits are bumpy and nasty, nothing close to what any Formula One track enjoys. Many drivers do not enjoy annual contracts, they drive for their ride, and could easily be replaced in a few races if they do not produce. The nature of Indycar bunches up the field a lot more, and that in itself causes more problems.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 6:16 am 
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Jeepkhana wrote:
Can someone tell me what the heck this turn martial is thinking waving a green flag?!?!?!?!?!?

Image

Green flag signifies when it is safe to race, past his point there is no more hazards so from that point on it's safe to race again.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 7:40 am 
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specdecible wrote:
Jeepkhana wrote:
Can someone tell me what the heck this turn martial is thinking waving a green flag?!?!?!?!?!?

Image

Green flag signifies when it is safe to race, past his point there is no more hazards so from that point on it's safe to race again.

To me it looks like he's in the process of pulling it in.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 8:24 am 
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Laura23 wrote:
Pedrosa_4_Ever wrote:
I'd much rather watch a race like today than 22 cars in procession at Monaco. Just saying...

I don't think you get the point the OP is making. It isn't about a lack of excitement or anything, it's a lack of talent. There was some really really dumb moves out there today by people who should have known much better.

With the exception of dunderheads like Maldonado F1 seems to have a much higher standard of driving in it's top echelon than IndyCar does.


But F1 was like this in the past. Schumacher, Senna all were pretty dangerous themselves. Actually, that made F1 really exciting to watch then.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 12:53 pm 
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RaggedMan wrote:
To me it looks like he's in the process of pulling it in.


He was still waving it at that moment.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 12:55 pm 
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specdecible wrote:
Jeepkhana wrote:
Can someone tell me what the heck this turn martial is thinking waving a green flag?!?!?!?!?!?

Image

Green flag signifies when it is safe to race, past his point there is no more hazards so from that point on it's safe to race again.


I'm not sure how it's safe to race with those two damaged cars STOPPED on the track just past his vantage point, not to mention the pile up to his right.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 1:52 pm 
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Jeepkhana wrote:
I'm not sure how it's safe to race with those two damaged cars STOPPED on the track just past his vantage point, not to mention the pile up to his right.


If specdecible is right.... the trouble is BEHIND the green flag, which would mean that the track is clear ahead of it... thereby safe to race.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 1:58 pm 
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trento wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
Pedrosa_4_Ever wrote:
I'd much rather watch a race like today than 22 cars in procession at Monaco. Just saying...

I don't think you get the point the OP is making. It isn't about a lack of excitement or anything, it's a lack of talent. There was some really really dumb moves out there today by people who should have known much better.

With the exception of dunderheads like Maldonado F1 seems to have a much higher standard of driving in it's top echelon than IndyCar does.


But F1 was like this in the past. Schumacher, Senna all were pretty dangerous themselves. Actually, that made F1 really exciting to watch then.


I think its fair to say that racing standards have improved a lot certainly since the 90s. Drivers collide with each other far less than they used to despite the fact they race closer together than they did in the past.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 1:59 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Jeepkhana wrote:
I'm not sure how it's safe to race with those two damaged cars STOPPED on the track just past his vantage point, not to mention the pile up to his right.


If specdecible is right.... the trouble is BEHIND the green flag, which would mean that the track is clear ahead of it... thereby safe to race.


Maybe what I wrote before was too hard to understand. There are STOPPED cars on EITHER SIDE of the guy waving the flag. Does that make sense?? Or, do you think it's the correct time to be waving a green flag when pretty much all you can see is wrecked cars all over the track?!?!?!!????

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 2:32 pm 
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Jeepkhana wrote:
Blake wrote:
Jeepkhana wrote:
I'm not sure how it's safe to race with those two damaged cars STOPPED on the track just past his vantage point, not to mention the pile up to his right.


If specdecible is right.... the trouble is BEHIND the green flag, which would mean that the track is clear ahead of it... thereby safe to race.


Maybe what I wrote before was too hard to understand. There are STOPPED cars on EITHER SIDE of the guy waving the flag. Does that make sense?? Or, do you think it's the correct time to be waving a green flag when pretty much all you can see is wrecked cars all over the track?!?!?!!????

Image

There is also wreckage all around him, bearing in mind its all to obvious that a SC has to be called then i don't understand the green flag at all. Is this a case that the marshalls throw flags as instructed rather than making their own on the spot decisions?

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 2:37 pm 
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One of those cars beyond him has a broken front left, there's no chance that's going anywhere.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 2:41 pm 
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Jeepkhana wrote:
Maybe what I wrote before was too hard to understand. There are STOPPED cars on EITHER SIDE of the guy waving the flag. Does that make sense?? Or, do you think it's the correct time to be waving a green flag when pretty much all you can see is wrecked cars all over the track?!?!?!!????


I stand corrected... I did not see the damage on the yellow car.

That said, your condescending attitude is not really appreciated....

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 2:44 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Jeepkhana wrote:
Blake wrote:
Jeepkhana wrote:
I'm not sure how it's safe to race with those two damaged cars STOPPED on the track just past his vantage point, not to mention the pile up to his right.


If specdecible is right.... the trouble is BEHIND the green flag, which would mean that the track is clear ahead of it... thereby safe to race.


Maybe what I wrote before was too hard to understand. There are STOPPED cars on EITHER SIDE of the guy waving the flag. Does that make sense?? Or, do you think it's the correct time to be waving a green flag when pretty much all you can see is wrecked cars all over the track?!?!?!!????

Image

There is also wreckage all around him, bearing in mind its all to obvious that a SC has to be called then i don't understand the green flag at all. Is this a case that the marshalls throw flags as instructed rather than making their own on the spot decisions?


Maybe he is just bringing the green flag in.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 2:54 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Maybe he is just bringing the green flag in.


I know people on this forum love to speculate. Watch the green flag waving at around 25-27 seconds into this video. That's when I took the screenshot. Green flag was waving during and after the wreck.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGggCv9fMUE


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 3:18 pm 
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IndyCar: Barfield explains his calls and non-calls at Long Beach

Beaux Barfield promised the 2014 Verizon IndyCar season would be dictated more by the race drivers than Race Control and that was certainly evident in Sunday's 40th annual Toyota Grand Prix of Long Beach.

No penalties were handed down for the contact between Will Power and Simon Pagenaud or Justin Wilson and Scott Dixon, which left some competitors and fans scratching their collective heads.

"We said before the season began that we were going to change the way we officiate and take more of a hands-off approach," said Barfield (LEFT). "And I think that's what you saw last Sunday."

Of course the most popular topic on the Long Beach "hit list" was Power putting his former teammate and vacation pal Pagenaud into the tire barriers.

"Myself and the other two stewards (Johnny Unser and Brian Barnhart) looked at the replays and acknowledged that we would have likely called that a penalty last year but it's something we will no longer call," said Barfield. "It was two guys racing hard for position but we didn't see it as malicious."

As for Dixon appearing to shove Wilson into the wall, Barfield explained: "You could say the line that Dixon took into the corner was either slightly defensive or that he left Justin some room on the left. But you can see on the replay that Justin turned back into Scott and he initiated the contact.

"You can also see that Scott was looking hard right and may not have known he (Wilson) was there. But Justin probably wasn't going to make the corner and it was too late for him to do a crossover move because he was too far alongside Dixon."

Asked if it seemed ironic he was defending the 2013 champion who repeatedly called for him to be fired, Barfield replied: "No, because I don't hold grudges, I don't play favorites and that's the way it should be."

When Graham Rahal spun out Wilson at the hairpin, he got a drive-through penalty but, later, when rookie Mikhail Aleshin turned Rahal around at the same place, he got nothing.

"Graham got penalized because he spun Justin before we even went back to green and he was beating on his bumper all the way from Turn 9," explained Barfield. "That was an easy call to make.

"But when Graham got turned he had moved off-line going into the hairpin – maybe trying to dictate Aleshin's exit, I don't know – but when the kid moved back on line he hit Rahal and turned him. If Graham keeps his normal line, it's the Chrome Horn and the rookie gets a penalty."

Race Control's new procedure is that the three stewards decide on whether to call a penalty and it takes a majority vote.

"The rule of avoidable contact has changed – it's now just contact," said Barfield. "That's how we are officiating and we didn't think Will, Scott and Mikhail were negligent or reckless as the newly-worded rules state.

"But the bottom line is that we don't want races to be decided by Race Control. It's up to the drivers to sort things out."

And likely that means dollar signs for Dallara – better make a whole bunch of new front wings for Alabama.

http://www.racer.com/indycar/item/102785-indycar-barfield-explains-his-calls-and-non-calls-at-long-beach

In the last few years, Indycar has been exceptionally good at making the right calls quickly and dealing out the appropriate punishment. They were doing a much, much better job than Formula One. But there has been an obvious shift in how the drivers will be controlled, sort of like how NASCAR is doing it with their "have-at-it" approach.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 4:30 pm 
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Arai and Blake :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

I very much enjoyed your informative, interesting and above all respectful debate between each other. This forum needs more opinionated-but-fair discussion like that.

Kudos.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 6:09 pm 
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Colo134 wrote:
jase.2 wrote:
As usual Indy delivered a great race, cant remember the last boring one but I can remember a few F1 races like that recently. At least these guys have a go at racing and only get ten goes at push to pass instead of every lap

I agree with comments about Power - he moans his donkey off about everyone else, never his fault etc but seems to get away with whatever he does

The worst crash tho was Dixon pushing Justin Wilson into the wall, felt really bad for Justin as im sure he would have won the race, but maybe as he was all over Dixon his eagerness cost him as he could probably have picked his spot to get past better


tbh I could watch a Formula 1600 race and see just as good if not better racing. I see and hear indy car fans jump up and yell that the indy car has 'the best racing ever'. But i dont see it, and i dont get excited about it. Lemme explain why i dont get excited about it. In F1, we have different cars that have different strengths and weaknesses, some are good on the straight, some or good in the corners, some are good on breaking, and some are good on acceleration. The Drivers exploit their car's strengths and their opponent's as well as managing their own weaknesses to get past eachother. In Indy Car all the cars are identical, its a spec series. I find that that makes it very difficult to get excited about a battle forming, because we know that theyre the same and have no advantage or weakness over the other. So please explain to me what makes indy car racing so great.

Is it the overtaking? sure theres alot, but its difficult to get excited about it because of what i mentioned earlier.
Is it the Unpredictability? That unpredictability doesnt exist as much as Indy fans say it does. In 2012, 13 of the 15 races were won by Ganassi, Penske, or Andretti. In 2013, 14 out of the 19 races were won by one of those three teams.
Is it the crashes? Anyone who watches racing for the crashes needs to have their head checked.

I see your point, to a point. The only thing spec in Indy these days is the chassis. There are currently 2 engines, Chevy and Honda, so there's a bit of variance in the "spec" there.

Furthermore, what we can for sure ascertain is which drivers are better than others via observing how well they drive throughout the season. If a driver bests the competition, then certainly he's a really good driver. However, theres also the ability of a driver and team to get their setups correct which adds a bit of complexity to the equation, in assessing a driver's ability.

As with most series, you have a clutch of excellent, top tier drivers, some decent ones and then a few that either bought their way in or just made it by the skin of their teeth, but are decent enough to run without much incident. Some of these guys develop into great drivers and some fade away, but that's the case with every series.

What IRL is indeed missing are multiple chassis as well as engines to mix things up a bit more but currently, the economic climate won't support that and it seems no other engine manufacturers want in. I'd love to see Toyota and Ford come back, as well as the Mercedes but time will tell if they'll ever invest as much as they did in the 90's to build up a series, only to have the powers that be, drive it right into the ground because they can't look past their egos.

Currently the IRL is an OK series to watch for me and I'm making a conscious effort to follow it more closely, but I'm going in with reservations that I wish weren't there because I want to give it a fair shake. Having JPM driving full time will help.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 8:12 pm 
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Arai_or_Nothing wrote:
Colo134 wrote:
jase.2 wrote:
As usual Indy delivered a great race, cant remember the last boring one but I can remember a few F1 races like that recently. At least these guys have a go at racing and only get ten goes at push to pass instead of every lap

I agree with comments about Power - he moans his donkey off about everyone else, never his fault etc but seems to get away with whatever he does

The worst crash tho was Dixon pushing Justin Wilson into the wall, felt really bad for Justin as im sure he would have won the race, but maybe as he was all over Dixon his eagerness cost him as he could probably have picked his spot to get past better


tbh I could watch a Formula 1600 race and see just as good if not better racing. I see and hear indy car fans jump up and yell that the indy car has 'the best racing ever'. But i dont see it, and i dont get excited about it. Lemme explain why i dont get excited about it. In F1, we have different cars that have different strengths and weaknesses, some are good on the straight, some or good in the corners, some are good on breaking, and some are good on acceleration. The Drivers exploit their car's strengths and their opponent's as well as managing their own weaknesses to get past eachother. In Indy Car all the cars are identical, its a spec series. I find that that makes it very difficult to get excited about a battle forming, because we know that theyre the same and have no advantage or weakness over the other. So please explain to me what makes indy car racing so great.

Is it the overtaking? sure theres alot, but its difficult to get excited about it because of what i mentioned earlier.
Is it the Unpredictability? That unpredictability doesnt exist as much as Indy fans say it does. In 2012, 13 of the 15 races were won by Ganassi, Penske, or Andretti. In 2013, 14 out of the 19 races were won by one of those three teams.
Is it the crashes? Anyone who watches racing for the crashes needs to have their head checked.

I see your point, to a point. The only thing spec in Indy these days is the chassis. There are currently 2 engines, Chevy and Honda, so there's a bit of variance in the "spec" there.

Furthermore, what we can for sure ascertain is which drivers are better than others via observing how well they drive throughout the season. If a driver bests the competition, then certainly he's a really good driver. However, theres also the ability of a driver and team to get their setups correct which adds a bit of complexity to the equation, in assessing a driver's ability.

As with most series, you have a clutch of excellent, top tier drivers, some decent ones and then a few that either bought their way in or just made it by the skin of their teeth, but are decent enough to run without much incident. Some of these guys develop into great drivers and some fade away, but that's the case with every series.

What IRL is indeed missing are multiple chassis as well as engines to mix things up a bit more but currently, the economic climate won't support that and it seems no other engine manufacturers want in. I'd love to see Toyota and Ford come back, as well as the Mercedes but time will tell if they'll ever invest as much as they did in the 90's to build up a series, only to have the powers that be, drive it right into the ground because they can't look past their egos.

Currently the IRL is an OK series to watch for me and I'm making a conscious effort to follow it more closely, but I'm going in with reservations that I wish weren't there because I want to give it a fair shake. Having JPM driving full time will help.


I think that there are some great drivers in the IRL. I dont deny that at all. Bourdais, Wilson, Power, Sato, Hinch. But the on track product is poor. Some people call it great, but i call it poor. There are alot of silly crashes in the IRL which could have been avoided either from Steward decision or Driver decision. Like last weekend at LB, that crash could have been avoided. There was no way RHR was going to get past unless he was along side immediately coming out of the corner. The crash that killed Wheldon could have been avoided if the IRL didnt want to have a glory run for the old car and fielded less cars. Detroit race in 2012 where the track started to fall apart ruined the on track product. Detroit #2 2013 was full of silly crashes of people making half moves up the inside and clipping the outside car sending them in to a spin. in 2011, they tried to restart a race on a wet track causing several cars to spin out.

Im not saying that that doesnt happen in F1. There are crashes in F1 that are stupid, and shouldnt have happened, Maldonado Bahrain 2014 for example.

IRL cars look awkward on track, especially road tracks. they look better on ovals. They just look badly balanced with that massive, high, fat rear wing and the skinny front wing. They also look slow, the speed trap times and lap times show that they arent slow, but the looks slow on breaking and turn in, in particular. What was great about Champ Car, and whats great about F1 is that they are fast and nimble and are fun to watch going around a track. IRL cars dont produce that, due to the badly balanced looking cars.

Furthermore, IRL cars dont change. The cars that they race today are exactly the same as they raced in 2012 when they started using that particular car. Before that, the previous car barely changed since they started using them in 2002. Its the same every year. Sure the engines change slightly, from single turbo to twin turbo. But like you said the chassis is the same. What we as viewers see from the outside hasnt changed since 2012. They keep promising Aero-Kits, but I'll tell ya that it wont work, because every aero kit has to be available for every team, which means that every team will end up using the same one as they find out which one is the best and we are right back at square 1. In F1, we have the pleasure of seeing how teams deal with rule changes every year, whether it be the ban of EBD, the 2005, 2009, 2014 aero changes, the 2006, 2014 engine changes, the lower noses, the ban of traction control, the introduction of KERS and ERS, Tyre Changes every year. We also get innovation in F1 every year, double diffusers, F Duct, EBD, Coanda exhaust, the twin tusk nose. Even in Champ Car we saw some innovation as the teams were able to play around a bit. The gills we see on the rear wings above the wing itself was innovated by the Forsythe team in 2004 i think. The IRL gives us nothing to look forward to. Maybe there's something that I missed though.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:26 pm 
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Colo134 wrote:
I think that there are some great drivers in the IRL. I dont deny that at all. Bourdais, Wilson, Power, Sato, Hinch. But the on track product is poor. Some people call it great, but i call it poor. There are alot of silly crashes in the IRL which could have been avoided either from Steward decision or Driver decision. Like last weekend at LB, that crash could have been avoided. There was no way RHR was going to get past unless he was along side immediately coming out of the corner. The crash that killed Wheldon could have been avoided if the IRL didnt want to have a glory run for the old car and fielded less cars. Detroit race in 2012 where the track started to fall apart ruined the on track product. Detroit #2 2013 was full of silly crashes of people making half moves up the inside and clipping the outside car sending them in to a spin. in 2011, they tried to restart a race on a wet track causing several cars to spin out.

I think it is a bit rich to say that Weldon was killed because IRL wanted to have a glory run for the old cars...or because of the number of cars in the field. You don't know that, it is only speculation. That is like saying that F1 would be safer yet if you eliminated Turn 1 at the start of each race. What would you have had the IRL do? Just not race until the new cars were ready? I know of no racing series that would have done that.

Im not saying that that doesnt happen in F1. There are crashes in F1 that are stupid, and shouldnt have happened, Maldonado Bahrain 2014 for example.

IRL cars look awkward on track, especially road tracks. they look better on ovals. They just look badly balanced with that massive, high, fat rear wing and the skinny front wing. They also look slow, the speed trap times and lap times show that they arent slow, but the looks slow on breaking and turn in, in particular. What was great about Champ Car, and whats great about F1 is that they are fast and nimble and are fun to watch going around a track. IRL cars dont produce that, due to the badly balanced looking cars.

Personally... I think the IRL cars look great compared to the F1 "praying mantis" look. I have a hard time accepting that they LOOK slow while "speed trap times and lap times show that they aren't slow" as an argument against IRL cars. In my opinion, the IRL cars look fast, much faster than F1 cars. The low noses, simple front wings instead of multi-stacked wings looking like an automotive "baklava", sleek without a bunch of hung-on aerodynamics, and that "heavy" rear end just completes a streamlined look. Contrast that with spindly looking awkward bodies with all kinds of after-market appearing wings stuck on it and a skinny little spoiler. How does that look fast? The answer... because that is what you are used to, and what you expect to see. How anybody can look at this year's vacuum-cleaner nose Ferrari and criticize the appearance of another open-wheel car is beyond me.

Furthermore, IRL cars dont change. The cars that they race today are exactly the same as they raced in 2012 when they started using that particular car. Before that, the previous car barely changed since they started using them in 2002. Its the same every year. Sure the engines change slightly, from single turbo to twin turbo. But like you said the chassis is the same. What we as viewers see from the outside hasnt changed since 2012. They keep promising Aero-Kits, but I'll tell ya that it wont work, because every aero kit has to be available for every team, which means that every team will end up using the same one as they find out which one is the best and we are right back at square 1. In F1, we have the pleasure of seeing how teams deal with rule changes every year, whether it be the ban of EBD, the 2005, 2009, 2014 aero changes, the 2006, 2014 engine changes, the lower noses, the ban of traction control, the introduction of KERS and ERS, Tyre Changes every year. We also get innovation in F1 every year, double diffusers, F Duct, EBD, Coanda exhaust, the twin tusk nose. Even in Champ Car we saw some innovation as the teams were able to play around a bit. The gills we see on the rear wings above the wing itself was innovated by the Forsythe team in 2004 i think. The IRL gives us nothing to look forward to. Maybe there's something that I missed though.

The need for yearly change is negated by using a spec chassis... which is part of the reason why you can run an IRL team for about a 10th of what it takes for an F1 team. It doesn't bother me at all that IRL doesn't have new nose (actually, judging by the new F1 noses, that is a bonus!!!). All these change can stir up the field as we are seeing this year, but it also adds greatly to the expense. I believe in F1 being the epitome of open-wheel racing, so I don't mind the expense factor, but I also understand the kinds of things that make the sport so expensive and why the little teams are constantly screaming about cost.

The other issue is when those changes contrive to make the cars slower and less exciting... which is a trend we have been seeing in F1. You see the IRL cars as looking slower but being faster. I see the F1 cars looking like a hodpodge and being slower! Those are quite the extremes. While you enjoy seeing how teams deal with rule changes every year, I would enjoy less rule changes and allowing the teams to fully develop what they have before moving on after such short periods of time.

I am not saying that either of us is right or wrong, but certainly things can be seen differently...

:D

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 2:44 am 
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I agree with Colo134 on many points.

I think that just because the chassis are "supplied" I don't see why the rules aren't revised so teams can build upon the package if they can A. afford it, and can B. keep it within the allowed limitations. I think front wings, rear wings, diffusers and a few more tidbits should be open to modifications by the teams in order to promote innovation in some capacity. ANYONE can buy a chassis and and engine and slap it together, but being able to build upon and refine a design should be encouraged. And by limiting the components and areas upon which modi factions can be made, it keeps costs under control.

There's a whole lot that can be tidied up on the current Dallara to make it quicker and more streamlined and by not making the changes the whole thing wreaks of stale.

As for it keeping costs down Blake, yes, but to run the exact same unchanged car every single year is total BS. First of all, race chassis are only run s many races before they are retired and the teams in fact buy new chassis every single season, and sometimes they purchase more units as needed throughout the season, depending on issues or wrecks that deem a car irreparable. I had the opportunity to speak with Rick Mears at length a few months ago and what kills off Chassis manufacturers is producing uncompetitive chassis for 2 or more consecutive years. They can survive a single season of it because their customers stay on for at least the following year to allow them the chance to get things right. BUT, if after that 2nd season the issues persist, teams tended to jump to the better chassis from th 2 previous seasons and that other manufacturer struggles to sell units. That's what ended up killing first Reynard when Lola was the better chassis consistently for several years outside of the Walker race team which somehow always managed to make the Reynard work, but it helped to have ex Reynard employees in-house who knew the product better than any of the other teams. Then Walker bought Reynard outright and was able to sell a units to a few teams to help keep Reynard afloat a few more years until the decision was made to make it a spec series using the chassis that was constantly the overall superior one in the field, which was Lola. That kept them afloat for almost a decade and then when ChampCar folded and IRL allowed only Dallara, Lola lost its largest revenue generator and despite building some of the best chassis for a multitude of series, they slowly built up their debt until it was too much to continue. Interestingly enough they'd sold a surprising amount of profitable chassis, none more so than their B12/80 in 2012 (which was a fantastic car) before shutting their doors.


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