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on the positive side, it's always good to see the arrogant Ron Dennis fall on his pompous donkey

My point was that if they continue to woefully underperform with the resources they have and lose talent (a process that has already started) the resources are put at risk, that's business.

My suggestion wasn't that they are the next Williams rather that they are in danger of having a started a cycle that could lead to them being like Williams...... I hope I'm wrong but personnel is a great indicator of what direction they are going in Michael/Lowe Perez/Hamilton

Lewis was considerably faster than Jenson. I like how people say he showed well against Lewis. No he didn't. If McLaren didn't suck at strategy or pit stops, Lewis would've won all 3 years handily. Lots of drivers can show well when the car is great. It's the great ones who show well when the car isn't good. Button isn't that good. PEACE.

My god there's a whole load of rubbish in this thread. The OP especially.



How did it? It's not like anybody could really compete with Ferrari when they had Brawn, Byrne, Todt, Schumacher, unlimited testing and tyres suited specifically to them. And once that era was over, the team won a WDC with Hamilton and would've won a WCC if not for spygate, in which Dennis had no involvement. They fought for drivers titles in 2003 and 2005 too.

But I guess anything other than multiple titles is 'downhill'. It's not like Ferrari and McLaren have a god given right to be up front and are underperforming if they aren't.



You're absolutely right that McLaren has bigger problems than their drivers.
But it's well known that McLaren see Button as a benchmark. And since Lewis left, they've spent two years trying to find a driver better than him. Perez, for all the promise he has shown, wasn't that driver. Based on what we've seen so far, nor is Magnussen. K-Mag does look like a solid talent, but he is lacking in raw pace compared to Jenson. I know it's early days, but racing drivers generally don't find an extra 0.2 seconds of speed overnight and Magnussen is going to have to do that if he is to lead the team next season. Otherwise, a Magnussen/Vandoorne combination would be a case of the blind leading the blind. In that scenario, McLaren had better hope that Vandoorne is the next Hamilton, otherwise they would seriously regret dumping Jenson.
Quite simply, McLaren need a known quantity in the team next year and that guy has to be either Jenson or Grosjean. We know how good Grosjean is relative to Kimi, and while Kimi has probably declined, he is surely still a top 10 driver. That's really all McLaren can do while they wait for the next Hamilton. I don't think Magnussen is the next Hamilton, he's probably the next Jenson.

Both Ferrari and McLaren changed their team principals. Bosses of both companies talk about fixing their teams. Are they wrong too?

McLaren? I agree they are in crisis, for a number of reasons. You said things went downhill during Dennis' past leadership, which I completely disagree with. The crisis started when they lost Lewis and took the new development direction at the end of 2012.
Ferrari? I don't think they are in crisis. They had four legends of the sport, and they all left at roughly the same time, and since then we've had two new sets of rule changes. There's no crisis, there's just a couple teams doing a better job. That happens sometimes. Dominance doesn't last forever.

Button is slow?

Is his teammate doing any better? No, the problem is the car, not the drivers.

I don't blame Button, i just think such team should have proper Number 1 driver, with positive influence on final result.

I blame Martin Whitmarsh


Where is he anyway ? :p

The cars fairy cakes so lets sack Button. lol

Can't add anything to what Blinky and a few others have added to this complete fail of a thread. Some blinkered hatred manifesting from some, with little to add other than "omg buttons sucx, kill ron lol". Needless to say, Mclaren aren't the pathetic thing in this thread.

Just an idea here - Is it not too hard to believe that after both Mclarens were on the podium in Australia (after sensor-gate obviously) that Mercedes might have slowed the amount of feedback given on the engines, seeing them as a real potential threat?

Pure conjecture I know. But updates aerodynamically and with the engine are clearly the only reason Mclaren haven't quite stayed up the top, with today being the real low point so far - But I fully expect a turnaround very soon. The difference between this season and previous seasons is that the scope of development has been quite limited in previous seasons - particularly 2013 where the tub was flawed from the start. I just think that this year there are so many different possible solutions and answers that it's very possible to have some mistakes in direction. And a team with as much expertise as Mclaren will be able to bring it back.

It's just knee jerk after knee jerk.

I couldn't disagree more, whilst some of the language (like McLaren are Pathetic) could be called emotive and a little over the top I think the sentiment is a fair one.

This team have and are underachieving and that decline can be associated with a number of poor decisions and shoddy management going back a good few years now. Personally I think dis-regarding all of the facts even when supported by performance such as today's is almost delusional!

Un-freaking-believable.

To quote someone who actually knows what's going on...



Why is it that some people panic, freak out, and play the blame game without any understanding of what's going on? Why on Earth does this have to happen, the obvious ignorance and blinkering of vision? Do any of these critics realize that in Bahrain McLaren tried out an experimental clutch package that forced both cars to retire? And if that had not happened ...

McLaren would be comfortably second in the World Constructor's standings, ahead of Red Bull, Force India, Ferrari, Lotus and Williams. Notwithstanding that, McLaren are presently third in the standings, just one point back of second, Force India.

McLaren are not the pathetic ones.

Read this earlier and I think it's true.

Button needs a car that is stable at the rear, that matches his smooth style of driving, unfortunately, rule changes for this season goes in the opposite direction of what Button desires to make him a success, No Blown floor, No Lower main beam wing, smaller rear wing which makes the car more difficult to drive, this does not suit Button's style of driving and it's showing in the McLaren team, they need someone who can cope with a less predictable rear end and that someone is driving for Mercedes at the moment, those fat wishbones were an attempt to bring stability to the rear of the car but anything that blocks the air from passing the rear of the car destroys the aero, thus, the car is slower!

McLaren are in trouble because the new rules goes against their team leader's style of racing!!!!!

Didn't Jenson said that he always wanted his own team, now that he has one he can't blame nobody else. In the last 2 seasons mclaren have given him everything he asked for, when he will start taking some responsability for the results he is bringing to the team. At the end of the day he's not 100% to blame for it but he plays a big part of it.

The worst was when they kept on pressing the crash into Massa button on the pit wall

I agree Hamilton had the upper hand over Button but these types of comments which discredit Button entirely bug me, he ran Hamilton very close and if Mclaren provide him with a car that can win he will win. Button has never been the fastest, but he is not a poor/slow driver.

Can't add anything to what Blinky and a few others have added to this complete fail of a thread. Some blinkered hatred manifesting from some, with little to add other than "omg buttons sucx, kill ron lol". Needless to say, Mclaren aren't the pathetic thing in this thread.

Just an idea here - Is it not too hard to believe that after both Mclarens were on the podium in Australia (after sensor-gate obviously) that Mercedes might have slowed the amount of feedback given on the engines, seeing them as a real potential threat?

Pure conjecture I know. But updates aerodynamically and with the engine are clearly the only reason Mclaren haven't quite stayed up the top, with today being the real low point so far - But I fully expect a turnaround very soon. The difference between this season and previous seasons is that the scope of development has been quite limited in previous seasons - particularly 2013 where the tub was flawed from the start. I just think that this year there are so many different possible solutions and answers that it's very possible to have some mistakes in direction. And a team with as much expertise as Mclaren will be able to bring it back.

It's just knee jerk after knee jerk.

Read this earlier and I think it's true.

Button needs a car that is stable at the rear, that matches his smooth style of driving, unfortunately, rule changes for this season goes in the opposite direction of what Button desires to make him a success, No Blown floor, No Lower main beam wing, smaller rear wing which makes the car more difficult to drive, this does not suit Button's style of driving and it's showing in the McLaren team, they need someone who can cope with a less predictable rear end and that someone is driving for Mercedes at the moment, those fat wishbones were an attempt to bring stability to the rear of the car but anything that blocks the air from passing the rear of the car destroys the aero, thus, the car is slower!

McLaren are in trouble because the new rules goes against their team leader's style of racing!!!!!

Unfortunately if Jenson does not take some responsibility for his performance and thereby do something to improve it .... Then we will not see him in F1 next year , he is too complacent and to eager to jump out of the car and blame all and sundry for poor performances . Ron Dennis is no Whitmarsh and will not cover for him .
He needs to pull on all his experience and use it to wrestle with that car and get something decent out of it as we see with Alonso . I refuse to believe that this years Mclaren is that bad it is no worse than the Ferrari . Williams and Force India

I am not going to weigh in on the "Is Jenson Button the right man for the job" debate as i will be biased as i have a major man crush on the guy.

However i will agree that McLaren need to do a better Job. The size of the outfit, and the money they have at their disposal you would expect better results.

Last year the car was designed with such a narrow set up window that neither driver could get the performace out of it like they showed in 2012. This year Boulier has come out and said the car has been designed with a narrow tyre heating window... too cold or too hot and they are scuppered!

Sure they took 2nd and 3rd in Aus where the temprature was right for them, and we may see another couple of optimum temprature races where they do well but thats not enough to win a championship or at this rate even a race!

And we have to be honest that their last major championship victory in 2008 only came about because they stole the design from Ferrari Before then they had the skills of Adrien Newey designing the 98 and 99 cars... they lack a good design department.

Okay they are trying to improve it, but this whole saga with Mr Fallows is a joke... so they poach a guy from the Championship Team... only for him to change his mind and want to go back to RBR? Cant even retain good staff before they have even started work? Come on thats rediculous!

To me this feels all too similar to the Williams downfall of the late 90's early Millenium... just 10 years down the line!

Unfortunately if Jenson does not take some responsibility for his performance and thereby do something to improve it .... Then we will not see him in F1 next year , he is too complacent and to eager to jump out of the car and blame all and sundry for poor performances . Ron Dennis is no Whitmarsh and will not cover for him .
He needs to pull on all his experience and use it to wrestle with that car and get something decent out of it as we see with Alonso . I refuse to believe that this years Mclaren is that bad it is no worse than the Ferrari . Williams and Force India