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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 12:39 pm 
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Neutrality wrote:
LKS1 wrote:
Neutrality wrote:
LKS1 wrote:
steoc4 wrote:
[b]I don't see how this season has proved anything about Lewis so far. All it tells us is that he's a slightly better driver than Nico Rosberg, and everybody already knew that. People are playing up Nico's talents now because Lewis hasn't beaten him as comfortably as people had expected before he joined Merc (much like how people played up Jenson's talents after all the predictions Lewis would destroy him at McLaren didn't come to pass)[/b]

All he has to do to win any given race is not be slower than Nico, who is an average driver. And there's been a couple of times where he's failed to do that, which has only resulted in him actually receiving more praise because he made tough work of it in Bahrain, whereas a more accomplished driver would have been leaving Nico for dust and getting berated for "not having a good team-mate"

I generally agree - which is why I've said many times that Nico racing close to Lewis down-graded Lewis (IMO), rather than up-grading Nico.

But to look on the bright side, Lewis is out-driving Nico so far this season (and last year was Lewis' first season at the team). Although last season was distorted by the team orders.


Far too early to make the call over the better driver. We are still in the phase of adaptation to the new cars; as it is the Merc drivers have no competition other than each other, so at the moment there is little evidence regarding the cerebral abilities of either driver. Indeed if the season continues to pan out the way it currently is, then both championships will be almost meaningless competition wise.

True, but bearing in mind no other team can compete with Merc - general intelligence has not proven itself to be superior to race intelligence IMO.


My point exactly, both drivers are in a position to almost know exactly what their teammate is doing thus no need to think strategically; additionally neither driver is willing to risk taking his teammate off so won't push to the limits in attack, as seen in Bahrain.

Except Lewis did exactly that in Bahrain IMO!


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 12:44 pm 
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Except Lewis did exactly that in Bahrain IMO!


He was defending which to me is his right; IMO when teammates are battling it is up to the attacker to safeguard the finish by withdrawing when a risk arises. That said I agree that Lewis was dancing, if not over the line at one point.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 1:06 pm 
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Neutrality wrote:
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Except Lewis did exactly that in Bahrain IMO!


He was defending which to me is his right; IMO when teammates are battling it is up to the attacker to safeguard the finish by withdrawing when a risk arises. That said I agree that Lewis was dancing, if not over the line at one point.

I agree - but the rules are far more strict nowadays about pushing a driver trying to overtake off track. Something I regret as I enjoy defensive driving - but times have changed.

More importantly, he cut across Nico (when overtaking) in a way that relied on Nico giving way. IIRC, this was the only incident Nico complained about.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 1:54 pm 
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Nico is racing with the big boys now. He needs to man up or go home.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 3:46 pm 
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Hamilton is too aggressive, he destroys his tyres, he uses more fuel, he's not clever enough to beat Rosberg in this era. Especially after going to Merc... he'll probably never win another race let alone WDC while McLaren go on to dominate the next few seasons. He can't focus on his racing he's too busy playing with his dog and being a rapper. He is basically Jacques Villeneuve.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 3:56 pm 
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LKS1 wrote:
Neutrality wrote:
Quote:
Except Lewis did exactly that in Bahrain IMO!


He was defending which to me is his right; IMO when teammates are battling it is up to the attacker to safeguard the finish by withdrawing when a risk arises. That said I agree that Lewis was dancing, if not over the line at one point.

I agree - but the rules are far more strict nowadays about pushing a driver trying to overtake off track. Something I regret as I enjoy defensive driving - but times have changed.

More importantly, he cut across Nico (when overtaking) in a way that relied on Nico giving way. IIRC, this was the only incident Nico complained about.


You keep saying Lewis did something against the rules, he was hard but fair.
If Hamilton wasn't a full car ahead of Rosberg he'd have knocked his front wing off, he didn't because he was a full length clear. Seriously man your credibility is being destroyed by such flawed argument.
If your not overlapping it's up to you to back off everytime!

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 5:41 pm 
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steoc4 wrote:
I don't see how this season has proved anything about Lewis so far. All it tells us is that he's a slightly better driver than Nico Rosberg, and everybody already knew that. People are playing up Nico's talents now because Lewis hasn't beaten him as comfortably as people had expected before he joined Merc (much like how people played up Jenson's talents after all the predictions Lewis would destroy him at McLaren didn't come to pass)

All he has to do to win any given race is not be slower than Nico, who is an average driver. And there's been a couple of times where he's failed to do that, which has only resulted in him actually receiving more praise because he made tough work of it in Bahrain, whereas a more accomplished driver would have been leaving Nico for dust and getting berated for "not having a good team-mate"


Lewis Hamilton has proven himself as one of the top F1 drivers in 2007-2008-2009-2010-2011-2012-2013 and the first four races of 2014
His stats are a testament to his skills to those who have not SEEN him race.
The amount of money Mercedes are paying him is justified by the eight trophies four of them wins and the eight pole positions in the short time with them.
He has nothing to prove .
What he has this year is a car that matches his skill, finally and good luck to him he's more than earned it .
There is no " more accomplished " driver in F1 at the moment there is one that is perhaps his equal and he has already beaten him albeit marginally.

As you are witnessing the degree that Nico almost took but didn't take is not going to help him this year
only good old fashioned luck will help him . He could write a sixteen thousand word dissertation on how to beat Lewis Hamilton and still get left standing in Catalunya .


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:19 pm 
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imbrugliaboy wrote:
LKS1 wrote:
Neutrality wrote:
Quote:
Except Lewis did exactly that in Bahrain IMO!


He was defending which to me is his right; IMO when teammates are battling it is up to the attacker to safeguard the finish by withdrawing when a risk arises. That said I agree that Lewis was dancing, if not over the line at one point.

I agree - but the rules are far more strict nowadays about pushing a driver trying to overtake off track. Something I regret as I enjoy defensive driving - but times have changed.

More importantly, he cut across Nico (when overtaking) in a way that relied on Nico giving way. IIRC, this was the only incident Nico complained about.


You keep saying Lewis did something against the rules, he was hard but fair.
If Hamilton wasn't a full car ahead of Rosberg he'd have knocked his front wing off, he didn't because he was a full length clear. Seriously man your credibility is being destroyed by such flawed argument.
If your not overlapping it's up to you to back off everytime!


Despite our disagreement on the subject at hand, LK was using reasoned opinion on his view of the incident, which he is entirely entitled to, his argument is certainly not flawed by any margin. In the time I have been on this site I have disagreed with LK on a few occasions, but I would never question his credibility, nor I doubt will any of the other regular posters. Unless you have absolute proof to the contrary you may wish to reconsider your assertion :(

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 10:16 pm 
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I don't understand this whole Lewis not being cerealbar enough. He's dating a pop-tart after all.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 10:58 pm 
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All I am saying is people said he was not smart enough for the new formula.....it appears he is. What does this prove? That he is managing ok in the new car with new rules and new baubles to balance. All I wanted to get across....


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:50 pm 
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The only person I question about having (or in this case not having) a brain is Pastor.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:00 am 
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Neutrality wrote:
imbrugliaboy wrote:
LKS1 wrote:
Neutrality wrote:
Quote:
Except Lewis did exactly that in Bahrain IMO!


He was defending which to me is his right; IMO when teammates are battling it is up to the attacker to safeguard the finish by withdrawing when a risk arises. That said I agree that Lewis was dancing, if not over the line at one point.

I agree - but the rules are far more strict nowadays about pushing a driver trying to overtake off track. Something I regret as I enjoy defensive driving - but times have changed.

More importantly, he cut across Nico (when overtaking) in a way that relied on Nico giving way. IIRC, this was the only incident Nico complained about.


You keep saying Lewis did something against the rules, he was hard but fair.
If Hamilton wasn't a full car ahead of Rosberg he'd have knocked his front wing off, he didn't because he was a full length clear. Seriously man your credibility is being destroyed by such flawed argument.
If your not overlapping it's up to you to back off everytime!


Despite our disagreement on the subject at hand, LK was using reasoned opinion on his view of the incident, which he is entirely entitled to, his argument is certainly not flawed by any margin. In the time I have been on this site I have disagreed with LK on a few occasions, but I would never question his credibility, nor I doubt will any of the other regular posters. Unless you have absolute proof to the contrary you may wish to reconsider your assertion :(

Thank you Neutrality.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:12 am 
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steoc4 wrote:
I don't see how this season has proved anything about Lewis so far. All it tells us is that he's a slightly better driver than Nico Rosberg, and everybody already knew that. People are playing up Nico's talents now because Lewis hasn't beaten him as comfortably as people had expected before he joined Merc (much like how people played up Jenson's talents after all the predictions Lewis would destroy him at McLaren didn't come to pass)

All he has to do to win any given race is not be slower than Nico, who is an average driver. And there's been a couple of times where he's failed to do that, which has only resulted in him actually receiving more praise because he made tough work of it in Bahrain, whereas a more accomplished driver would have been leaving Nico for dust and getting berated for "not having a good team-mate"


Based on that who do you rate? You only rate people who beat top class team mates?

Schumacher never beat a top class team mate.
Vettel never beat a top class team mate
Hamilton beat Alonso
Alonso never beat a top class team mate though?
But then again Massa beat Raikonan who people rate has a top class team mate
Raikonan hasn't beaten a top class team mate though?

If you can't see Hamilton is a top class driver then that's a fault of your own. After all there is a reason the professionals believe he's worth the amount he receives a season.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:52 am 
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LKS1 wrote:
I'm sure that most would agree that Nico probably has a higher general IQ than Lewis.

But this is irrelevant when it comes to racing IQ - an entirely different thing.

Have to admit that I thought this season would favour the more 'generally intelligent' driver.

Turns out I was wrong.

Why exactly? This is based on nothing. I'm not saying it's not true, just that it's based on no evidence. PEACE.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:09 am 
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Someone challenged me on the cerebral bit...its in this article (most recently): http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/formul ... rival.html


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:00 am 
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steoc4 wrote:
semper paratus wrote:
steoc4 wrote:
I don't see how this season has proved anything about Lewis so far. All it tells us is that he's a slightly better driver than Nico Rosberg, and everybody already knew that. People are playing up Nico's talents now because Lewis hasn't beaten him as comfortably as people had expected before he joined Merc (much like how people played up Jenson's talents after all the predictions Lewis would destroy him at McLaren didn't come to pass)

All he has to do to win any given race is not be slower than Nico, who is an average driver. And there's been a couple of times where he's failed to do that, which has only resulted in him actually receiving more praise because he made tough work of it in Bahrain, whereas a more accomplished driver would have been leaving Nico for dust and getting berated for "not having a good team-mate"


the argument heading into the season was he would struggle to succeed where more thinking drivers (teammate included) would thrive....he has not struggled and has proven to be efficient/thinking enough to manage his car's resources. That is my post distilled to essential elements. Thus far, this appears to be true. As far as proving things..it shows he may not be as pure "brute force" as once believed...the classic "quick but thick" criticism.


But the thing is that it's impossible to tell if other drivers are thriving compared to him. Fernando Alonso beating Kimi by over a minute certainly looks like a driver who's thriving, but because his car is fundamentally worthless compared to the Mercedes then he has no chance of getting to the top.

Lewis is beating Nico Rosberg, but nowhere near that comfortably. In China, Nico's qualifying lap was faster than Lewis up until he made a mistake and blew it, then spent the race compromised for track position and also without telemetry. Meanwhile Lewis messed up qualifying with a big mistake himself in Bahrain, but the car was so dominant there that even without a remotely clean qualifying lap he was still on the front row with a good chance of getting first into turn 1, which he did. And Nico stayed on top of him for the whole first stint, until Mercedes compromised his strategy and put him on the worst tyres for the longest stint.

So all we can say is that he's doing better than Nico, but not by that much. And that's not a massive ringing endorsement right now.

How could Rosberg's lap be potentially faster when Hamilton had the fastest time in all 3 sectors?

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:07 am 
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pubpokerplayer wrote:
steoc4 wrote:
I don't see how this season has proved anything about Lewis so far. All it tells us is that he's a slightly better driver than Nico Rosberg, and everybody already knew that. People are playing up Nico's talents now because Lewis hasn't beaten him as comfortably as people had expected before he joined Merc (much like how people played up Jenson's talents after all the predictions Lewis would destroy him at McLaren didn't come to pass)

All he has to do to win any given race is not be slower than Nico, who is an average driver. And there's been a couple of times where he's failed to do that, which has only resulted in him actually receiving more praise because he made tough work of it in Bahrain, whereas a more accomplished driver would have been leaving Nico for dust and getting berated for "not having a good team-mate"


Based on that who do you rate? You only rate people who beat top class team mates?

Schumacher never beat a top class team mate.
Vettel never beat a top class team mate
Hamilton beat Alonso
Alonso never beat a top class team mate though?
But then again Massa beat Raikonan who people rate has a top class team mate
Raikonan hasn't beaten a top class team mate though?

If you can't see Hamilton is a top class driver then that's a fault of your own. After all there is a reason the professionals believe he's worth the amount he receives a season.

Yep Hamilton has had two WDC teammates and Rosberg who beat a 7xWDC three years on the trot.

Who else apart from perhaps Alonso has had such strong teammates?

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:10 am 
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steoc4 wrote:
I don't see how this season has proved anything about Lewis so far. All it tells us is that he's a slightly better driver than Nico Rosberg, and everybody already knew that. People are playing up Nico's talents now because Lewis hasn't beaten him as comfortably as people had expected before he joined Merc (much like how people played up Jenson's talents after all the predictions Lewis would destroy him at McLaren didn't come to pass)

All he has to do to win any given race is not be slower than Nico, who is an average driver. And there's been a couple of times where he's failed to do that, which has only resulted in him actually receiving more praise because he made tough work of it in Bahrain, whereas a more accomplished driver would have been leaving Nico for dust and getting berated for "not having a good team-mate"

So Rosberg is only average whilst i'm guessing the likes of Ricciardo is a super talent?

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 6:43 am 
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steoc4 wrote:
I don't see how this season has proved anything about Lewis so far. All it tells us is that he's a slightly better driver than Nico Rosberg, and everybody already knew that. People are playing up Nico's talents now because Lewis hasn't beaten him as comfortably as people had expected before he joined Merc (much like how people played up Jenson's talents after all the predictions Lewis would destroy him at McLaren didn't come to pass)

All he has to do to win any given race is not be slower than Nico, who is an average driver. And there's been a couple of times where he's failed to do that, which has only resulted in him actually receiving more praise because he made tough work of it in Bahrain, whereas a more accomplished driver would have been leaving Nico for dust and getting berated for "not having a good team-mate"


By those standards Vettel is average because all he had to do was beat a below average Mark Webber and is now getting beat by Ricciardo who was roughly Vergne's equal


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:08 am 
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He is driving with his brain much more this year, there is no point in him beating Nico by more than a few seconds because he is thinking long term about engine life over the season.

Last few seasons the engine life was much more predictable after many years of reliability and Seb could do the fastest lap but even so you could tell his engineer was not happy about it.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 7:50 pm 
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Chunky wrote:
Being analytical and smart is over rated in racing. Smart enough is all you need so long as you have abundant talent.

Hamilton was going to get a kicking from Nico this year, because Rosberg's got the degree and likes the detail. He's had access to the fine details of where Lewis has been faster, smoother, more economical. But you simply can't translate data into ability to get the best out of a car that actually needs to be driven.

Prost was known as the Professor. He was smart enough to pinch Mansell's chassis at Ferarri. He was tactical enough to get wins that his raw talent alone didn't justify and had the wisdom to block Senna joining him at Williams in 1993. But Senna was always the better driver of the two. He was smart enough, but ultimately had more talent.

Changing the rules this year to get rid of the EBD and the very efficient front wing, plus making much more power available under the driver's left foot means that contrary to all predictions, it's a year for driver talent. Not for technicians, certainly not for one trick ponies like Vettel.

.

God the ignorance of some is just astounding. Prost had at least as much talent and speed as anyone in history -- an opinion shared by his contemporaries who, um, actually knew something about racing. Just because Senna was younger, crazier, and more calculating during the period that the two were teamed up doesn't mean the Senna fanboys are right about their respective abilities.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 4:58 pm 
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steoc4 wrote:
All he has to do to win any given race is not be slower than Nico, who is an average driver. And there's been a couple of times where he's failed to do that, which has only resulted in him actually receiving more praise because he made tough work of it in Bahrain, whereas a more accomplished driver would have been leaving Nico for dust and getting berated for "not having a good team-mate"

This paragraph really confuses me... Hamilton didn't make "tough work" of it for himself in Bahrain. What made it "tough" was the safety car which resulted in Rosberg being right behind him with FAR superior tyres. It completely changed the race and gave a big advantage to Nico that was purely down to luck.

I think Lewis is a better driver than Nico so, in a straight fight, I'd expect him to beat the "average driver" (your words, not mine) handily but, given the tyre advantage Nico had for the last 10 laps that day, it's still an achievement that Lewis beat him the way he did.

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