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 Post subject: Conclusions From China
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 10:45 pm 
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With the first 3 grand prix of the season completed, below is the current drivers' ranking;

Top 3
Hamilton
Ricciardo
Alonso


2nd Tier

Hulkenberg
Rosberg
Vettel
Kimi

3rd Tier
Button
Massa
Bottas
Perez
Vergne



OTHERS


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:49 pm 
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Based on performance I must say Kimi is third tier and Perez second. Sergio has had some good results although I feel he's still trailing the Hulk. Button and Vergne not even third tier.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:06 am 
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Hamilton is in a class of his own. Even with the car advantage.
Rosberg can challenge on his day. But no where near Hamilton. (He'll go prove me wrong now and win the title)
Alonso will fight Riccardo for podiums.
Danny ric is the next big thing.
Hulk needs a bigger team.
Kvyat is impressive so far.

Sebastian vettel is being shown up to be very average

Other news. We need to get rid of double points. I fear that the title will be lost on double points. And not fairly. Its not that we need the double points rule as its a 2 horse race so far.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:49 am 
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We see that it has taken 3 race wins to run down a 25 point lead caused by his DNF in Australia and will take one more to clear the defecit. Based on that, if it is still a two horse race between Lewis and Nico and Nico were to finish first and Lewis DNF in Abu Dhabi then it would wipe out 8 race wins by Lewis.
Four race wins (inc Abu Dhabi) and following Lewis home every other time in second would give Nico the WDC
Four DNF's combined with 15 race wins would still not be enough for Lewis to win


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:54 am 
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Haven't four GP been completed? Why summarise 3 after the 4th or am I missing something?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:11 am 
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wire2004 wrote:
Hamilton is in a class of his own. Even with the car advantage.
Rosberg can challenge on his day. But no where near Hamilton. (He'll go prove me wrong now and win the title)
Alonso will fight Riccardo for podiums.
Danny ric is the next big thing.
Hulk needs a bigger team.
Kvyat is impressive so far.

Sebastian vettel is being shown up to be very average

Other news. We need to get rid of double points. I fear that the title will be lost on double points. And not fairly. Its not that we need the double points rule as its a 2 horse race so far.

I'm not a particular fan of Vettel but, seriously? How anyone can think a four times WDC is very average is beyond me.

The most you can take about Vettel from the last few races is that he's either not comfortable with the car or it's not suited to his driving style. But average? Not with his record


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:16 am 
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Zoue wrote:
wire2004 wrote:
Hamilton is in a class of his own. Even with the car advantage.
Rosberg can challenge on his day. But no where near Hamilton. (He'll go prove me wrong now and win the title)
Alonso will fight Riccardo for podiums.
Danny ric is the next big thing.
Hulk needs a bigger team.
Kvyat is impressive so far.

Sebastian vettel is being shown up to be very average

Other news. We need to get rid of double points. I fear that the title will be lost on double points. And not fairly. Its not that we need the double points rule as its a 2 horse race so far.

I'm not a particular fan of Vettel but, seriously? How anyone can think a four times WDC is very average is beyond me.

The most you can take about Vettel from the last few races is that he's either not comfortable with the car or it's not suited to his driving style. But average? Not with his record



Too early to judge. Lets wait till Spa at least.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:23 am 
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baksonlee wrote:
With the first 3 grand prix of the season completed, below is the current drivers' ranking;

Top 3
Hamilton
Ricciardo
Alonso


I'm confused. You rate Ricciardo higher than Alonso despite the fact that Alonso finished ahead with inferior car? Where's the logic in that?

wire2004 wrote:
Hamilton is in a class of his own. Even with the car advantage.
Rosberg can challenge on his day. But no where near Hamilton. (He'll go prove me wrong now and win the title)
Alonso will fight Riccardo for podiums.
Danny ric is the next big thing.
Hulk needs a bigger team.
Kvyat is impressive so far.

Sebastian vettel is being shown up to be very average

Other news. We need to get rid of double points. I fear that the title will be lost on double points. And not fairly. Its not that we need the double points rule as its a 2 horse race so far.


I'm tired of the "in class of its own" stuff, seriously. Last year Vettel was the greatest driver who was ever born because he was finishing 20s+ ahead. This year it's Hamilton. Replace Hamilton with Chilton and Rosberg will in a class of his own. Put Ricciardo, Alonso or Kimi in the Merc and they will be "in a class of its own". People act like Hamilton/Vettel were doing some kind of feat but the reality is that they are beating their teammates and that gives them 20s+ wins because no one else has the car to challenge them.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:02 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
wire2004 wrote:
Hamilton is in a class of his own. Even with the car advantage.
Rosberg can challenge on his day. But no where near Hamilton. (He'll go prove me wrong now and win the title)
Alonso will fight Riccardo for podiums.
Danny ric is the next big thing.
Hulk needs a bigger team.
Kvyat is impressive so far.

Sebastian vettel is being shown up to be very average

Other news. We need to get rid of double points. I fear that the title will be lost on double points. And not fairly. Its not that we need the double points rule as its a 2 horse race so far.

I'm not a particular fan of Vettel but, seriously? How anyone can think a four times WDC is very average is beyond me.

The most you can take about Vettel from the last few races is that he's either not comfortable with the car or it's not suited to his driving style. But average? Not with his record


Well - I m a particular fan of him but he is being out driven by Dan pure and simple.

Now I m not the kind to elevate any teammate who matches / bests a top driver to top tier at first opportunity so I will reserve judgement and keep my mind open to the possibility that Vettel may not have been a top driver himself and got incredibly lucky.

Having said that - I am still expecting Vettel to get around to fix whatever issues he is facing and beat Ricciardo (by a nice margin) over the season. If that doesnt happen - I will have to either elevate Dan or down grade Vettel - that much is certain.

Anyway the season is young but the Mercs have closed out the 2 titles and I m sure Lewis will take the title easier than most expect. But I m waiting for a late charge by some teams maybe even Vettel & RB . All in vain of course unless Bernie makes the last 2 races triple points.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:06 pm 
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Meanwhile, here is the actual current drivers' ranking:

1 Nico Rosberg Ger Mercedes 79
2 Lewis Hamilton GB Mercedes 75
3 Fernando Alonso Spa Ferrari 41
4 Nico Hulkenberg Ger Force India 36
5 Sebastian Vettel Ger Red Bull 33
6 Daniel Ricciardo Aus Red Bull 24
7 Valtteri Bottas Fin Williams 24
8 Jenson Button GB McLaren 23
9 Kevin Magnussen Den McLaren 20
10 Sergio Perez Mex Force India 18
11 Felipe Massa Brz Williams 12
12 Kimi Raikkonen Fin Ferrari 11
13 Jean-Eric Vergne Fra Toro Rosso 4
14 Daniil Kvyat Rus Toro Rosso 4
15 Romain Grosjean Fra Lotus 0
16 Adrian Sutil Ger Sauber 0
17 Esteban Gutierrez Mex Sauber 0
18 Max Chilton GB Marussia 0
19 Kamui Kobayashi Jpn Caterham 0
20 Pastor Maldonado Ven Lotus 0
21 Jules Bianchi Fra Marussia 0
22 Marcus Ericsson Swe Caterham 0

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:20 pm 
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MistaVega23 wrote:
Meanwhile, here is the actual current drivers' ranking:

1 Nico Rosberg Ger Mercedes 79
2 Lewis Hamilton GB Mercedes 75
3 Fernando Alonso Spa Ferrari 41
4 Nico Hulkenberg Ger Force India 36
5 Sebastian Vettel Ger Red Bull 33
6 Daniel Ricciardo Aus Red Bull 24
7 Valtteri Bottas Fin Williams 24
8 Jenson Button GB McLaren 23
9 Kevin Magnussen Den McLaren 20
10 Sergio Perez Mex Force India 18
11 Felipe Massa Brz Williams 12
12 Kimi Raikkonen Fin Ferrari 11
13 Jean-Eric Vergne Fra Toro Rosso 4
14 Daniil Kvyat Rus Toro Rosso 4
15 Romain Grosjean Fra Lotus 0
16 Adrian Sutil Ger Sauber 0
17 Esteban Gutierrez Mex Sauber 0
18 Max Chilton GB Marussia 0
19 Kamui Kobayashi Jpn Caterham 0
20 Pastor Maldonado Ven Lotus 0
21 Jules Bianchi Fra Marussia 0
22 Marcus Ericsson Swe Caterham 0

8O Where did you get this almost unattainable knowledge of driver rankings

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:01 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
I'm not a particular fan of Vettel but, seriously? How anyone can think a four times WDC is very average is beyond me.

The most you can take about Vettel from the last few races is that he's either not comfortable with the car or it's not suited to his driving style. But average? Not with his record


Mostly because of how he won. He never went to a team and struggled and had to take the maximum performance out of a car like say... Alonso did in 2012 or what Schumacher was doing at Ferrari pre-2000. Everyone knows F1 is all car. All Vettel ever did was dominate in the most dominating car. Now that he doesn't have it, his teammate is almost better than him - that makes Vettel very average. My personal thoughts is that he's not very average, but we haven't seen the side of him that has to struggle and has to scrape the floor for every last bit of performance to get his car across the line. The problem is that in this age of F1, we probably won't see it happen and Vettel won't be given the opportunity to show what he has, if there is indeed anything amazing about his skills.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:04 pm 
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Bentrovato wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I'm not a particular fan of Vettel but, seriously? How anyone can think a four times WDC is very average is beyond me.

The most you can take about Vettel from the last few races is that he's either not comfortable with the car or it's not suited to his driving style. But average? Not with his record


Mostly because of how he won. He never went to a team and struggled and had to take the maximum performance out of a car like say... Alonso did in 2012 or what Schumacher was doing at Ferrari pre-2000. Everyone knows F1 is all car. All Vettel ever did was dominate in the most dominating car. Now that he doesn't have it, his teammate is almost better than him - that makes Vettel very average. My personal thoughts is that he's not very average, but we haven't seen the side of him that has to struggle and has to scrape the floor for every last bit of performance to get his car across the line. The problem is that in this age of F1, we probably won't see it happen and Vettel won't be given the opportunity to show what he has, if there is indeed anything amazing about his skills.

In 2009 he split the supposedly invincible Brawns, while in 2010 and 2012 he had to fight right until the last race, which shows he can perform under pressure. He didn't cruise every year.

I'm not saying he's the best driver out there but average? That's too extreme IMO. What does that make Webber?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:37 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Bentrovato wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I'm not a particular fan of Vettel but, seriously? How anyone can think a four times WDC is very average is beyond me.

The most you can take about Vettel from the last few races is that he's either not comfortable with the car or it's not suited to his driving style. But average? Not with his record


Mostly because of how he won. He never went to a team and struggled and had to take the maximum performance out of a car like say... Alonso did in 2012 or what Schumacher was doing at Ferrari pre-2000. Everyone knows F1 is all car. All Vettel ever did was dominate in the most dominating car. Now that he doesn't have it, his teammate is almost better than him - that makes Vettel very average. My personal thoughts is that he's not very average, but we haven't seen the side of him that has to struggle and has to scrape the floor for every last bit of performance to get his car across the line. The problem is that in this age of F1, we probably won't see it happen and Vettel won't be given the opportunity to show what he has, if there is indeed anything amazing about his skills.

In 2009 he split the supposedly invincible Brawns, while in 2010 and 2012 he had to fight right until the last race, which shows he can perform under pressure. He didn't cruise every year.


+ I'd say he got a LOT out of that STR, particularly in 2008.
People always forget about 2008. As if it didn't exist. He has "always" had the most dominating car. Yep.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:42 pm 
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VDV23 wrote:
baksonlee wrote:
With the first 3 grand prix of the season completed, below is the current drivers' ranking;

Top 3
Hamilton
Ricciardo
Alonso


I'm confused. You rate Ricciardo higher than Alonso despite the fact that Alonso finished ahead with inferior car? Where's the logic in that?

wire2004 wrote:
Hamilton is in a class of his own. Even with the car advantage.
Rosberg can challenge on his day. But no where near Hamilton. (He'll go prove me wrong now and win the title)
Alonso will fight Riccardo for podiums.
Danny ric is the next big thing.
Hulk needs a bigger team.
Kvyat is impressive so far.

Sebastian vettel is being shown up to be very average

Other news. We need to get rid of double points. I fear that the title will be lost on double points. And not fairly. Its not that we need the double points rule as its a 2 horse race so far.


I'm tired of the "in class of its own" stuff, seriously. Last year Vettel was the greatest driver who was ever born because he was finishing 20s+ ahead. This year it's Hamilton. Replace Hamilton with Chilton and Rosberg will in a class of his own. Put Ricciardo, Alonso or Kimi in the Merc and they will be "in a class of its own". People act like Hamilton/Vettel were doing some kind of feat but the reality is that they are beating their teammates and that gives them 20s+ wins because no one else has the car to challenge them.


Bit simplistic. For example, it completely ignores such things as Vettels ability to control a race from the front or Hamiltons defensive last stint at Bahrain. The ability to dominate a race weekend or pull out a blistering qually lap. I think most fans can recognise the races or runs where a particular driver can be 'in a class of his own'.
And to throw around fanboy quotes such as 'greatest driver who ever lived' is as meaningless as putting any weight behind those who now claim Vettel is 'an average driver'.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:52 pm 
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My conclusions so far:

- Vettel is showing that he needs a car just perfect for him in order to perform at his best. He needs lots of downforce to utilise his counterintuitive driving style. Without that downforce, he is not as impressive. That said, he is far from average. Ricciardo was simply massively underrated by many.

- Rosberg is the typical number 1.5 driver, as opposed to the traditional team leader or number 2 driver. He is capable of leading a team to a title by himself and can beat anyone on his day, but he isn't as fast or as complete as Hamilton when Lewis is at his best.

- Kimi is no longer one of the elite talents of the sport, perhaps not even top six. However, I think not all of that is due to regression as a driver, but rather a consequence of his back issues from last year and setup issues this year. I see him as being the Rossi of F1 now, capable of occasional greatness thanks to his superb racecraft, but lacking the raw pace and consistency of the elite drivers.

- If we can use Perez as a benchmark, Hulkenberg seems to be better than Button, as I suspected since last year.

- That said, Jenson is doing a solid job. He isn't getting the best out of the car consistently but he put the car in good positions in the first three races and had some bad luck. He is still a top 10 driver.

- Magnussen appears to lack the raw pace needed to emerge as a top talent in the future, but he has good racecraft.

- Bottas needs to step up if he is the talent some on this forum think he is. He has only been legitimately quicker than Massa in one race (Malaysia) and failed to deliver from great positions in Australia and Bahrain.

- Kvyat is seriously impressive. Very few drivers face the kind of learning curve he has had to deal with. But he has come through with flying colours. He could do with a little more pace, but he is IMO the most impressive rookie since Lewis and Vettel. He seems so complete for a driver of his age and experience.

- if Mercedes are to be beaten anywhere, it'll be at grip tracks such as Monaco, Hungary, Singapore and Russia. And even then, I would make Mercedes favorites if any of those races were to take place now.

- I refuse to believe Red Bull are out of the WDC until Silverstone. If Merc dominate Silverstone, that is when I know Red Bull are done.

- I am confident McLaren will bounce back because the car is much more stable than last year. It just needs more downforce. I'm particularly confident we will see them back on the podium at power tracks like Canada, Austria and Italy.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:12 pm 
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Quote:
I'd say he got a LOT out of that STR, particularly in 2008.
People always forget about 2008. As if it didn't exist.


Is that the year he won the race at Monza?

The race where his teamate Bourdais qualified 4th and ended with the fastest lap of the race?

Couldnt of been that bad a car!

Anyway, i think what most people are saying is that Vettel needs a car on rails to win.

Presented with anything remotely difficult, and he struggles.

Lets face it, Alonso has been dealing with it for years, and hes always been there abouts in the championship and races.

Stick Alonso or Hamilton in that Red Bull and they would have won four world championships.

As someone mentioned earlier, F1 is largely about the car. So you know how good a driver is when they are presented with a fairy cakes and still perform in it, aka Alonso of the last few years and Schumacher pre 2000's in the Ferrari. To win 4 races in that dog of a car in 1996 says a lot, THATS when you know your looking at a great driver.

Sebastian has been presented with what i believe is his first real challenge of a car since entering F1, and at the moment hes been found wanting. As his fans have been saying hes a 4 time WDC, yet if he is truly made of the material of a 4 time WDC, should he be getting the donkey kicking he currently is by his 1st year Red Bull teamate?

He might prove me wrong yet, but choo choo Sebastian, your cars not on rails now, you've got a busted donkey Indian cab and you need to start proving your not a one car wonder.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:18 pm 
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shoot999 wrote:
Bit simplistic. For example, it completely ignores such things as Vettels ability to control a race from the front or Hamiltons defensive last stint at Bahrain. The ability to dominate a race weekend or pull out a blistering qually lap. I think most fans can recognise the races or runs where a particular driver can be 'in a class of his own'.
And to throw around fanboy quotes such as 'greatest driver who ever lived' is as meaningless as putting any weight behind those who now claim Vettel is 'an average driver'.


I actually rate Vettel very highly but there isn't a single driver in the grid right now who is in class of its own, not a single one. You think Vettel, Hamilton or Alonso wouldn't dominate if they are given the Merc this year? Or the RB9 last year?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:30 pm 
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- That Mercedes multi year buildup off their F1 team finally paid off
- That Alonso probably still is the #1
- That Vettel have som issues at the beginning off 2014 and his haters love it
- That Ricciardo is a talent, Kyvat likewise
- That it's difficult to be a rookie in a bad car without testing, see Magnussen
- That Rosberg needs to get back to 2013 speed before he can beat Lewis
- That Kimi struggles with this years Ferrari, but he will Bounce back

Questionmarks?

- Have anyone ever seen a bigger engine advantage than Mercedes has this year?
- Will Mercedes keep pourng money after a WCC title?
- Will Ricciardo beat Vettel over a whole season?
- Will Lotus pull back?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:06 pm 
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AnRs- wrote:
Have anyone ever seen a bigger engine advantage than Mercedes has this year?


Well, the engine advantage was not big enough for Williams, FI and McLaren to beat the Red Bulls and Alonso.
;)


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:10 pm 
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ChopSchuey wrote:
Is that the year he won the race at Monza?

Look beyond Monza. After his last retirement of the year at Hungary he never finished outside the top ten and was 6th or better in all but one and even out-raced Hamilton in Brazil. While in the other car Bourdais only finished in the top ten twice all season.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:16 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
AnRs- wrote:
Have anyone ever seen a bigger engine advantage than Mercedes has this year?


Well, the engine advantage was not big enough for Williams, FI and McLaren to beat the Red Bulls and Alonso.
;)

McLaren didn't even score points and finished behind a Toro Rosso, this seems to have to be constantly said

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:23 pm 
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RaggedMan wrote:
ChopSchuey wrote:
Is that the year he won the race at Monza?

Look beyond Monza. After his last retirement of the year at Hungary he never finished outside the top ten and was 6th or better in all but one and even out-raced Hamilton in Brazil. While in the other car Bourdais only finished in the top ten twice all season.

Bourdais was regularly outqualifying Webber and DC in the sister Red Bull car in the second half the season, the fact that he had many poor results was down to himself rather than the speed of the car

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:32 pm 
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VDV23 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
Bit simplistic. For example, it completely ignores such things as Vettels ability to control a race from the front or Hamiltons defensive last stint at Bahrain. The ability to dominate a race weekend or pull out a blistering qually lap. I think most fans can recognise the races or runs where a particular driver can be 'in a class of his own'.
And to throw around fanboy quotes such as 'greatest driver who ever lived' is as meaningless as putting any weight behind those who now claim Vettel is 'an average driver'.


I actually rate Vettel very highly but there isn't a single driver in the grid right now who is in class of its own, not a single one. You think Vettel, Hamilton or Alonso wouldn't dominate if they are given the Merc this year? Or the RB9 last year?


Think our differences are based on semantics. I agree no current driver is 'in a class of his own'. I was saying that over periods of time; a few races or say a race weekend for example, a particular driver can be 'in a class of his own'. Similarly a late braker or someone who can maximise the potential of the car, can for a period be 'in a class of their own' at that particular skill set.
As for who wouldnt dominate in the Merc; thats all conjecture. For example we have no way of knowing whether Vettels issues are car specific or with the new breed of cars. In which case he would still struggle with the Merc. Similarly Alonso's ability to adapt could see him blow Hamilton into the weeds.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:33 pm 
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RaggedMan wrote:
ChopSchuey wrote:
Is that the year he won the race at Monza?

Look beyond Monza. After his last retirement of the year at Hungary he never finished outside the top ten and was 6th or better in all but one and even out-raced Hamilton in Brazil. While in the other car Bourdais only finished in the top ten twice all season.


The STR3 was a very, very quick car. It was the refined Red Bull chassis with an engine in it rumoured to be upwards of half-a-second per lap quicker than the Renault engine at the time. In qualifying Bourdais was usually not more than a couple of spots behind Vettel on the grid. I was gutted for Sebastien when his strategy robbed him of a podium (and STR's first) in Spa. It was the first show that the STR3 had become a very quick car, after all it won the next race after qualifying 1-4.

No doubt about it, Vettel drove well in 2008 but the car was up to the standard by the half-way point in the season as well. Bourdais was just nowhere. With a decent driver beside Vettel, STR could possibly have been one of the most successful teams of the second-half of 2008.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:58 pm 
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My only conclusions are :
1- The 2007 and 2008 Ferrari may well have been the very best car of the field.
2- Too bad for Webber that he was not promoted from the RBR nursery.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:05 pm 
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Bentrovato wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I'm not a particular fan of Vettel but, seriously? How anyone can think a four times WDC is very average is beyond me.

The most you can take about Vettel from the last few races is that he's either not comfortable with the car or it's not suited to his driving style. But average? Not with his record


Mostly because of how he won. He never went to a team and struggled and had to take the maximum performance out of a car like say... Alonso did in 2012 or what Schumacher was doing at Ferrari pre-2000. Everyone knows F1 is all car. All Vettel ever did was dominate in the most dominating car. Now that he doesn't have it, his teammate is almost better than him - that makes Vettel very average. My personal thoughts is that he's not very average, but we haven't seen the side of him that has to struggle and has to scrape the floor for every last bit of performance to get his car across the line. The problem is that in this age of F1, we probably won't see it happen and Vettel won't be given the opportunity to show what he has, if there is indeed anything amazing about his skills.

Using this logic then Hamilton is very average. Hamilton never struggled with a car over a season. The most adversity he had was the first half of 2009 before McLaren rolled out their B-spec that was as good as any car in the field (hence the win in Hungary and Singapore). Before that B-spec was rolled out he publicly berated the car. Since 2008 he's had a car that's been 2nd in the WCC 3 times and yet failed to finish in the top 3 (and some cases top 4) whilst one of his teammates has been 2nd in the WDC.

Lewis is a great driver and this post is not meant to bash him (It could have been done with any top driver) but to show just how ridiculous the double-standards are. Vettel is struggling a bit now but everyone has and he's only one of 5 non-Mercedes guys to have a podium so it's not like he's really doing a completely poor job.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:16 pm 
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Those saying Vettel is average need their heads examined.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:19 pm 
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My conclusions:
Hamilton has the edge over Rosberg in terms of raw speed and racecraft. On Rosbergs day, he'll likely keep Hamilton honest but on Hamiton's day, I cant help but feel Rosberg must be demoralised
Vettel truely mastered EBD driving like no other driver out there but this year without these EBDs he is struggling to be top of the pack anymore. I actually think Webber would have been level pegging him this year had he stuck around.
Alonso easily has the measure of Kimi
Ricci is showing himself to have some decent speed - potential WDC in the making? With the current regs he seems to have the edge on Vettel
Food for thought - will Rosberg ever be WDC with Hamilton as a teammate?

With the current regs (ie handling a lot less downforce at the rear), in terms of driver ability I would put Hamilton and Alonso undoubtedly at the top. Nipping closely at their heels we are currently seeing Ricciardo, Rosberg & Hulkenberg with Vettel, Button & Kimi behind them. I would then probably put Magnussen, Kyat, Massa and Bottas.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:33 pm 
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Harpo wrote:
My only conclusions are :
1- The 2007 and 2008 Ferrari may well have been the very best car of the field.
2- Too bad for Webber that he was not promoted from the RBR nursery.


I was thinking about point 1 last night. Is Alonso currently proving how much better the 2007 Ferrari was than the McLaren. We all thought at the time they were pretty level but the way he tore apart Massa and is now doing the same to Kimi we could have been very wrong.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:37 pm 
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pubpokerplayer wrote:
Harpo wrote:
My only conclusions are :
1- The 2007 and 2008 Ferrari may well have been the very best car of the field.
2- Too bad for Webber that he was not promoted from the RBR nursery.


I was thinking about point 1 last night. Is Alonso currently proving how much better the 2007 Ferrari was than the McLaren. We all thought at the time they were pretty level but the way he tore apart Massa and is now doing the same to Kimi we could have been very wrong.


It goes to show the 2007 Ferrari was the dominate car in the right hands.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:43 pm 
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I'd guess Alonso is now a much better driver, both physically and mentally, than he was in 2007.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:49 pm 
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quote="MistaVega23"]Those saying Vettel is average need their heads examined.[/quote]

He struggled the first half of 2013 when the car was not planted
He's proving he needs all these fancy blown diffusers.
He's proving he needs tons of downforce.
He's proving he throws his toys out of the pram when things don't go his way.
He's proving he thinks he is above the team. (Sorry. You can't convince me he let danny ric through at turn 1 In China. I agree he ran wide as what brundle and crofty thought)
To prove his talents. He should be up there as best of the rest. Showing he can be up there in a inferior car. (Like Alonso the last few years. Hamilton in 09. And schumi pre 2000 as 3 examples.)
Seb has 4 wdc in one of the most dominant cars in history. The fact he screwed himself to neatly throw it away in 2010 and 2012. OK Schumacher had 5 consecutive. But 03 was not a walk in the park and the fact he helped develop the car into what it became pre 2000 shows how he can develop a car. Whereas seb plonked his donkey in the red bull in 09 and let newey do his thing.
His 08 str days were not that impressive in the grand scheme of things. Basically neweys expremental cars. The car was fundamentally good. Bordais was also up there.
All my views of course.

And the person who says rosberg needs to be his 2012 standards to beat Hamilton.
Didn't Schumacher wipe the floor with rosberg and if not for apauling luck. Would of wipedbthe floor with rosberg in 12.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:10 pm 
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VDV23 wrote:

I'm tired of the "in class of its own" stuff, seriously. Last year Vettel was the greatest driver who was ever born because he was finishing 20s+ ahead. This year it's Hamilton. Replace Hamilton with Chilton and Rosberg will in a class of his own. Put Ricciardo, Alonso or Kimi in the Merc and they will be "in a class of its own". People act like Hamilton/Vettel were doing some kind of feat but the reality is that they are beating their teammates and that gives them 20s+ wins because no one else has the car to challenge them.



Err excuse me, But Hamilton was facing a massive 25 point deficit after the first race. If Rosberg does not DNF for 2014 and LH wins the WDC, that will make Hamilton's achievement quite a feat! Otherwise he will simply have beaten his teamate - it is what it is.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:18 pm 
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Baroche wrote:
VDV23 wrote:

I'm tired of the "in class of its own" stuff, seriously. Last year Vettel was the greatest driver who was ever born because he was finishing 20s+ ahead. This year it's Hamilton. Replace Hamilton with Chilton and Rosberg will in a class of his own. Put Ricciardo, Alonso or Kimi in the Merc and they will be "in a class of its own". People act like Hamilton/Vettel were doing some kind of feat but the reality is that they are beating their teammates and that gives them 20s+ wins because no one else has the car to challenge them.



Err excuse me, But Hamilton was facing a massive 25 point deficit after the first race. If Rosberg does not DNF for 2014 and LH wins the WDC, that will make Hamilton's achievement quite a feat! Otherwise he will simply have beaten his teamate - it is what it is.


You completely missed my point, of course.

Hamilton finishing 20s+ in front of Alonso and Vettel is as much as an achievement as Vettel finishing 20s+ in front of Hamilton and Alonso in 2013. Lewis driving circles around the Ferraris and the Bulls does not catapult him into the "in a class of its own" state. That's my point.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:28 pm 
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pubpokerplayer wrote:
Harpo wrote:
My only conclusions are :
1- The 2007 and 2008 Ferrari may well have been the very best car of the field.
2- Too bad for Webber that he was not promoted from the RBR nursery.


I was thinking about point 1 last night. Is Alonso currently proving how much better the 2007 Ferrari was than the McLaren. We all thought at the time they were pretty level but the way he tore apart Massa and is now doing the same to Kimi we could have been very wrong.


I'd love to see Alonso vs Hamilton again, with even treatment. But I think neither Alonso nor Hamilton really want that. That 2007 McLaren line-up was easily the best since the 1990 Ferrari line-up. I think you'd see better performances by Hamilton (which is not to say this year has been bad) if he was paired with Alonso. Rosberg may "strongly dislike" finishing 2nd to Hamilton, but Hamilton would HATE finishing 2nd to Alonso.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:37 pm 
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Hamilton and Rosberg are very hard to rate, their car is in another league, so i will rate them separately.

1. Hamilton
2. Rosberg

As for the rest of guys, i think i can take 3 drivers and say that they are doing a really good job.

Alonso, Hulkenberg and Ricciardo. About Alonso we already know, i think that even the most die hard Lewis or Vettel fans will have to admit that Alonso is like a dog with frisbee, he just never lets go. Personally, i hate the guy for all the unsporty stuff he did. But he is the best driver out there, closely followed by Hulkenberg, who is MEGA impressive this season. Ricciardo is up there with them too, it must be hard to drive in Red Bull, with all the scrutiny and pressure, but damn it, he is doing a fine job.

ALSO, saw Ricciardo with "Parkway drive" tshirt. Awesome!!! :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:39 pm 
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Donington93 wrote:
pubpokerplayer wrote:
Harpo wrote:
My only conclusions are :
1- The 2007 and 2008 Ferrari may well have been the very best car of the field.
2- Too bad for Webber that he was not promoted from the RBR nursery.


I was thinking about point 1 last night. Is Alonso currently proving how much better the 2007 Ferrari was than the McLaren. We all thought at the time they were pretty level but the way he tore apart Massa and is now doing the same to Kimi we could have been very wrong.


I'd love to see Alonso vs Hamilton again, with even treatment. But I think neither Alonso nor Hamilton really want that. That 2007 McLaren line-up was easily the best since the 1990 Ferrari line-up. I think you'd see better performances by Hamilton (which is not to say this year has been bad) if he was paired with Alonso. Rosberg may "strongly dislike" finishing 2nd to Hamilton, but Hamilton would HATE finishing 2nd to Alonso.



Hamiltons best year was indeed 2007, and that by far. Until last 2 races, he made only 1 mistake, and that was impressive from a rookie! F1 drivers are competitive animals, and Hamilton being paired with Alonso brought out the best out of them both. Sadly, it brought out the worst out of them both too, more so from Alonso.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:45 pm 
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number_two wrote:
Donington93 wrote:
pubpokerplayer wrote:
Harpo wrote:
My only conclusions are :
1- The 2007 and 2008 Ferrari may well have been the very best car of the field.
2- Too bad for Webber that he was not promoted from the RBR nursery.


I was thinking about point 1 last night. Is Alonso currently proving how much better the 2007 Ferrari was than the McLaren. We all thought at the time they were pretty level but the way he tore apart Massa and is now doing the same to Kimi we could have been very wrong.


I'd love to see Alonso vs Hamilton again, with even treatment. But I think neither Alonso nor Hamilton really want that. That 2007 McLaren line-up was easily the best since the 1990 Ferrari line-up. I think you'd see better performances by Hamilton (which is not to say this year has been bad) if he was paired with Alonso. Rosberg may "strongly dislike" finishing 2nd to Hamilton, but Hamilton would HATE finishing 2nd to Alonso.



Hamiltons best year was indeed 2007, and that by far. Until last 2 races, he made only 1 mistake, and that was impressive from a rookie! F1 drivers are competitive animals, and Hamilton being paired with Alonso brought out the best out of them both. Sadly, it brought out the worst out of them both too, more so from Alonso.


I agree.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:48 pm 
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Gumption wrote:
Using this logic then Hamilton is very average. Hamilton never struggled with a car over a season...... .


Sorry but this is simply not true. Hamilton despite having the second best car has struggled to keep pace during the RBR years of dominance because McLaren engineers couldn't design a car with sufficient downforce even if their lives dependent upon it. Then in the later half of 2013 Pirelli handed the both the constructors and WDC to RBR. Despite the dominance of RBR, Hamilton was winning races in cars that were often inferior to RBR. Vettel does not have to win a championship in a lesser car to prove his ability as a driver, not even Hamilton has the patience and focus to do that (Alonso does), but he will have to win several times with a lesser car.


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