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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 4:02 pm 
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Greg92 wrote:
So who's this majority of F1 people? And how do we get the opinion of the more avid of fans? What exactly are avid fans btw and how biased can they be? Does Vettel have any of the more avid of fans? Do they also think that Alonso is better than him?
Greg, I say majority based on what I read in media, hear on telecasts, hear/read in interviews, and see in the forums. Scientific it is not, but it is why I said, that "I think perhaps the majority of F1 people and the more avid fans think Alonso is the best of the current grid". Of course it is just an opinion, however, I don't think it is greatly out of line.

Personally I think that for better or worse, the only way to measure F1 drivers is based on their success. Anything else is feelgood speculation to justify our own bias.
You are welcome to believe what you wish, however, if one goes by your strict "success" definition, then we end ruling out the likes of Stirling Moss, Gilles Villeneuve, Ronnie Peterson as great drivers and then end up saying that good drivers who happen to get a great car (ie Jenson Button). That is not meant as a put-down of Button, only that just winning a WDC and more races (especially in these days of 18 race seasons) is no real indicator of a driver's talent relative to others.

Is Vettel more successful than Alonso? Definitely and that's a fact.
No argument.

Is Vettel a better driver than Alonso? Sure, maybe, definitely not. I know it's fun but in the end it's just speculation. And it's pointless.
Indeed, it is speculation, but pointless? Hell, if all we ever discussed in here were indisputable fact, then there would be no need for a forum.

If the majority of F1 people and the more avid of fans tell me that Schumacher wasn't the greatest driver ever do you think I will change my opionion? Would you?
I have no idea if you will change your opinion or not, however, by your standard of measurement (ie success), then I would think that you would have to say that Schumi is the greatest F1 driver ever. Afterall, any other opinion would just be speculation you have said.

Blake do you really think that Alonso berated Renault, engaged in espionage at McLaren and allegedly blackmailed them and later requested team orders at Ferrari because he wanted to convince the majority of F1 people and the more avid of fans that he truly is the best in the current grid? Or do you think he did those things because he wanted to win? The answer will tell you what makes Alonso feel good about.
Greg, All of those things that you listed are certainly black marks against Alonso... as a person. However, they do not mean that he is not the best driver currently in F1. A person can be a total donkey (or pickle) and still be the best in his sport, we see it frequently. I am not saying one way or the other on Alonso, but I will say that in my opinion, and that of many others he indeed the best driver on the grid. BTW, how many top drivers have not had a blemish or more on their record?

I know you idolize Moss and I agree mostly with you but I'm sure you CANNOT put Alonso or many of the current (or past) drivers even remotely close to him. Nowadays we have mostly mercenaries who will lie, cheat, backstab, whine, blackmail, sucker punch, bully, take the money and run or sell themselves and their mothers. There are quite a few that haven't done those things but I'd add "yet or because they haven't had the opportunity".
I don't put ANY of the current drivers in what I would consider to be the best F1 drivers of all time. That is one reason why I feel the BBC ranking is a total joke. I was quite vocal about it when it came out and still am. I am not overly impressed by WDCs as the primary unit of measure, nor wins (especially when compared to the 7-9 races/per season 50s. I have been involved in extensive discussions in here (and elsewhere) about top drivers throughout the sport's history. Maybe one day Alonso, Hamilton or Vettel ... or even some other driver on the grid... will prove themselves worthy of being mentioned with the truly all-time greats (as I see them), but for now, I don't see it. I know that this bothers some of those who have never really known any era of drivers except the present, but it is their loss to have never seen the likes of Fangio, Moss, Clark, Andretti, Stewart, Lauda, Villeneuve, Peterson, Donohue, and so many more... in anything than some poor quality youtube video. I feel the same about Nuvolari, Carracciola, Ascari & Farina who I never got to see race. It is natural that they think that the current field is the best of all time because it is all they have known... plus maybe Schumi & Hakk. So... yes, you are right, I cannot put Alonso at the level of Moss.


Greg, I think that we are more alike in our views than we are different. Of course, a lot of opinion goes into the definition one uses for top drivers. If the only qualifier is their skills on the track, qualifying and set-up feedback, and all else being set aside then discussions of greatness are likely to considerably different than if the definition of great drivers includes moral issues, sportsmanship, mercenary actions, etc. That makes for a much bigger "can of worms"
:nod:

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Last edited by Blake on Fri Apr 25, 2014 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 4:05 pm 
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Could Alonso achieve what Vettel achieved in Vettel's cars?
Quite likely

Could Vettel achieve what Alonso achieved in Alonso's cars?
Based on current evidence, no

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 4:23 pm 
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I have absolutely no liking for Alonso personally. The McLaren parity issue, then Spygate. The Singapore saga at Renault and finally Hockenheim at Ferrari. Karma is a bitch and methinks he's getting all he deserves. He must have been sitting there after losing the WDC because of a major strategy error in the final race of 2010 that had him held up by Petrov (Petrov!!!) and thinking that fate was out to get even big style. But the payback just keeps on coming, year after year.

But was he right about Vettel? Absoulutely bang on the nail.

And the answer he gave was so perfectly worded that I bet he's been waiting for someone to ask exactly the right question for yonks.


.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 4:50 pm 
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Blake I'm not taking the high and mighty road. The fact that I realize that "greatness" debates are pointless doesn't mean I don't engage in them. I participated a lot in the "God and religion" thread too even though I knew very well that it was even more helpless. We all need to communicate with other people, express ourselves and get validation. So I'm not dissing the debate itself but the result. I still believe that Schumacher was the greatest driver ever, despite what Fiki says and I still think that Renault had the better car overall in 2006 despite what Sandman says. Doesn't mean they're both wrong, just that they're not right enough to convince me.

Same goes for the measurement of greatness. It's such a subjective topic that lacks even the most basic of definitions i.e. what exactly is greatness? So how do you expect people to reach in a common conclusion when they start from different premises? Just as you said, does greatness include moral issues, sportsmanship, mercenary actions, etc? And if so, how important are them? Can we say Button is a greater driver than Hamilton because he has never lied in front of the stewards?

That's why I've said before, people oftentimes confuse three highly distinctive concepts: greatest, best and more successful.

As you said, earlier, Vettel is more successful than Alonso because like it or not, points and wins are the currency of the realm of success (objective).

The better DRIVER is the one who applies more talent ON THE TRACK, despite success (subjective).

The greater driver is the one who besides being a talented driver also achieves success OFF THE TRACK (highly subjective).


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 4:52 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
Could Alonso achieve what Vettel achieved in Vettel's cars?
Quite likely

Could Vettel achieve what Alonso achieved in Alonso's cars?
Based on current evidence, no


What evidence?


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 4:58 pm 
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F1yer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
LKS1 wrote:
I'm glad I'm not the only one getting confused :lol: !

Unfortunately the post numbers have disappeared on my computer - so I'll repeat an earlier post:-



As for Alonso, (IMO) he's a great driver - but not a good 'team' player and its no shock when he claims 'Lewis is the best I've ever raced' (bearing in mind Lewis beat him) or 'Seb needs to prove himself in an inferior car' (bearing in mind Seb has been beating him in the RBR)....

i.e. Alonso's utterances can be completely ignored (IMO), as he's egotistical enough to say whatever he thinks will reflect best on himself.

Having said all that ( :lol: ), I do agree that this season should show whether or not Seb's dominance was due to his comfort under the old regs.

Edit - I have to add that I think Schumi was being honest when he said that the driver he feared most was Mika, even though Alonso beat him in '06 when (over the season) their cars were pretty equal.

You've lost me there were Vettel has proven himself in a inferior car by beating Alonso in the Red Bull


I stopped twice at the same thing. Implication being Redbull is inferior to Ferrari.
Then again - there were times when the Ferrari was faster and Vettel was still ahead - admittedly the other way round as well.

Anyway this year the Ferari is roughly equal - lets see who comes on top between Alonso and Vettel.


I could never really understand comments like these (not saying you are incorrect by the way). But how can you know the Ferrari was faster.???


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:18 pm 
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Greg92 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Could Alonso achieve what Vettel achieved in Vettel's cars?
Quite likely

Could Vettel achieve what Alonso achieved in Alonso's cars?
Based on current evidence, no


What evidence?

Gary Anderson wrote:
As for Sebastian Vettel, he is still trying to drive a car with the exhaust-blown diffuser. With that design, at the corner exit it was all about getting the throttle open and getting the extra rear grip the exhaust gases offered.

In 2013, he was the master of this and the Red Bull had the best system. But that is all gone now and he needs to change his driving style to suit the current specification cars.


Dude needs to learn how to adapt. The very best can change with the times quite quickly.

Couple his current lack of form with his dodgy first half of 2012 (a time when Red Bull did not have the rear end stability he was used to) and we're seeing a pattern. He's too used to one type of car - a vehicle with a rear end planted to the ground, something Ferrari have sorely lacked over the years.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 6:29 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
Greg92 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Could Alonso achieve what Vettel achieved in Vettel's cars?
Quite likely

Could Vettel achieve what Alonso achieved in Alonso's cars?
Based on current evidence, no


What evidence?

Gary Anderson wrote:
As for Sebastian Vettel, he is still trying to drive a car with the exhaust-blown diffuser. With that design, at the corner exit it was all about getting the throttle open and getting the extra rear grip the exhaust gases offered.

In 2013, he was the master of this and the Red Bull had the best system. But that is all gone now and he needs to change his driving style to suit the current specification cars.


Dude needs to learn how to adapt. The very best can change with the times quite quickly.

Couple his current lack of form with his dodgy first half of 2012 (a time when Red Bull did not have the rear end stability he was used to) and we're seeing a pattern. He's too used to one type of car - a vehicle with a rear end planted to the ground, something Ferrari have sorely lacked over the years.


That's not evidence though, it's an opinion. Not saying it's wrong but it's not exactly a damning piece of evidence.

2012, wasn't it the year we had 7 different winners in the first 7 races? I ask because I strongly doubt it was simply about lack of downforce. But even so, Vettel wasn't doing too bad after 10 races. He was 10 points behind Webber and 44 behind Alonso, true, but he also had a DNF from the lead and a no-point race from the fourth due to the collision with Narain (if you blame Narain too like FIA did) which would actually give Vettel the lead had they not happened. I hate digging these excuses and I'm not saying Vettel performed better than Alonso in the first half but you can't say he was doing poorly either.

Anyway, your entire logic is based on the assumption that Alonso would do at least as well as Vettel on the kind of cars that fitted Vettel so well while Vettel would definitely do worse than Alonso in the kind of cars that fitted Alonso. Right or wrong, this is nothing else but an assumption. It's as valid as saying that had Alonso joined Kimi at Lotus this year instead Kimi would be kicking his butt while having a Magnum.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 7:56 pm 
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Ha, I know this is an argument that no-one will ever win, but when you define best do you consider consistency or ability to deliver when it matters most. You’d have to put Vettel up there on that one, but I’d rather discuss Hamilton and Alonso. Alonso always seems to deliver, regardless of the car or situation, at least from what I can remember. I’ve wondered lately whether Hamilton tends to lose focus a little when the competitors are out of reach, or maybe focus on other aspects of his life. After all work isn’t everything. Take last season – Hamilton peaked in the summer, but when Vettel started to dominate he seemed to drop off compared to Rosberg. If that is the case, then does it matter providing he peaks when he does have the equipment to win. I think this is one of the reasons people rate Alonso so highly, and rightfully so. But, does it make him better?


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 8:12 pm 
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We've only really seen Vettel in a dominant car so it's still unfair to compare him to others yet. We need a few more seasons to see what he's made of. Obviously Alonso is right. You can say that about any driver in that situation.

Lewis Hamilton is the perfect example of what the Vettel debate is all about. He left McLaren but what he said was brilliant. He acknowledged that he wasn't well liked by the public and worked to fix that. He hired a company to help him and it's working. He is a lot more liked today than at any point in his career. Being mentored by Niki Lauda doesn't hurt either. The recent comments from Lewis about how Lauda helped him get more clear at the races by leaving his pets and entourage behind are really starting to show up in results this season.

Vettel is going to have to go through that same type of transformation if he wants to be regarded as great. He has to win and compete near the top when he doesn't have the best car. Any driver people consider as "great" has gone to a different team and won or at least competed for the top. So far (4 races in) he hasn't convinced anyone.. but there is lots of time.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 8:54 pm 
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Bentrovato wrote:
Vettel is going to have to go through that same type of transformation if he wants to be regarded as great. He has to win and compete near the top when he doesn't have the best car. Any driver people consider as "great" has gone to a different team and won or at least competed for the top. So far (4 races in) he hasn't convinced anyone.. but there is lots of time.


And before the obvious response, I think this means with the added pressure of expectation and the other driver’s on the grid keeping an eye on him. Good results as a rookie with little pressure are all good and well, but it doesn’t define a great sportsman.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 10:51 pm 
mcdo wrote:
Could Alonso achieve what Vettel achieved in Vettel's cars?
Quite likely

Could Vettel achieve what Alonso achieved in Alonso's cars?
Based on current evidence, no


Best post of the year. Because it appears so true. Cracked chassis and bruised ego aside.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 10:59 pm 
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silkjet wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Could Alonso achieve what Vettel achieved in Vettel's cars?
Quite likely

Could Vettel achieve what Alonso achieved in Alonso's cars?
Based on current evidence, no


Best post of the year. Because it appears so true. Cracked chassis and bruised ego aside.


careful......could be construed as another anti-vettel or hate post!


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 12:37 am 
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Chunky wrote:
I have absolutely no liking for Alonso personally. The McLaren parity issue, then Spygate. The Singapore saga at Renault and finally Hockenheim at Ferrari. Karma is a bitch and methinks he's getting all he deserves. He must have been sitting there after losing the WDC because of a major strategy error in the final race of 2010 that had him held up by Petrov (Petrov!!!) and thinking that fate was out to get even big style. But the payback just keeps on coming, year after year.

But was he right about Vettel? Absoulutely bang on the nail.

And the answer he gave was so perfectly worded that I bet he's been waiting for someone to ask exactly the right question for yonks.

Too bad you have so much animosity toward Alonso; a lot of F1 drivers get along really well with him. Anyways, he's been bang on the nail just about everything he's said since 2010. I remember some poster here saying in 2010 how he didn't like Alonso but that Alonso was seeming kind of "presidential" in the interviews, as much as it bothered the poster to admit it. I've always found his remarks to be remarkably open and perceptive, both those about his own team and about others' as well.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 7:07 am 
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Taking a look at Fernando's own stats:
From 2005 to 2007, he had arguably one of the top cars. 2004 and 2008-09 when he had a less-dominant Renault he had a high frequency of 4th- and 5th-placed race finishes. However, from 2010 to 2013 with the Ferrari his highest frequency in race-finishing positions has been from 1st to 3rd. Most of us are of the opinion that Fernando's performances in 2012 cemented his stauts as a top driver.
The question this raises for me is where Sebastian is in terms of the above. Is he at the stage in his career that Fernando was in 2008-09, in which case, 4th / 5th-place finishes might be ok against Fernando's baseline, or should he be at the 2010-13 level?
This is making a big assumption that the RB itself is on a par with the Renault of 2008-09 against the competiton today. Conversely it's worth bearing in mind that the Mercs presetn advantage means that realistically the best that any competition should expect for now is 3rd!

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 7:30 am 
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tootsie323 wrote:
Taking a look at Fernando's own stats:
From 2005 to 2007, he had arguably one of the top cars. 2004 and 2008-09 when he had a less-dominant Renault he had a high frequency of 4th- and 5th-placed race finishes. However, from 2010 to 2013 with the Ferrari his highest frequency in race-finishing positions has been from 1st to 3rd. Most of us are of the opinion that Fernando's performances in 2012 cemented his stauts as a top driver.
The question this raises for me is where Sebastian is in terms of the above. Is he at the stage in his career that Fernando was in 2008-09, in which case, 4th / 5th-place finishes might be ok against Fernando's baseline, or should he be at the 2010-13 level?
This is making a big assumption that the RB itself is on a par with the Renault of 2008-09 against the competiton today. Conversely it's worth bearing in mind that the Mercs presetn advantage means that realistically the best that any competition should expect for now is 3rd!


But sebastian isnt in the same situation as Alonso was in 2008/09 or 2010-13.

The 2008 renault was the 4th best car behind Ferrari, Mclaren and BMW, yet alonso was at times still able to beat some of the top 3 teams.

2009 the renault was even worse, it finished 8th in the constructors championship. 2010 Ferrari had more or less second or 3rd best car (depending on mclaren). 2011 the ferrari was slower than both rbr and mclaren by a long way. 2012 Ferrari was probably 4th best car and 2013 the ferrari was probably 3rd/4th best car after the first 5 races

Sebastian still has the second best car in the field this yesr, and he's still getting beat by fernando (granted his car stuffed up on him in australia). You cant really compare both situations.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 8:28 am 
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tootsie323 wrote:
Taking a look at Fernando's own stats:
From 2005 to 2007, he had arguably one of the top cars. 2004 and 2008-09 when he had a less-dominant Renault he had a high frequency of 4th- and 5th-placed race finishes. However, from 2010 to 2013 with the Ferrari his highest frequency in race-finishing positions has been from 1st to 3rd. Most of us are of the opinion that Fernando's performances in 2012 cemented his stauts as a top driver.
The question this raises for me is where Sebastian is in terms of the above. Is he at the stage in his career that Fernando was in 2008-09, in which case, 4th / 5th-place finishes might be ok against Fernando's baseline, or should he be at the 2010-13 level?
This is making a big assumption that the RB itself is on a par with the Renault of 2008-09 against the competiton today. Conversely it's worth bearing in mind that the Mercs presetn advantage means that realistically the best that any competition should expect for now is 3rd!

I don't think you can make such literal comparisons between two completely different years. There are so many variables, not least in how closely the cars are matched and whether a driver is at ease with them.

Seb is clearly not comfortable with his car at the moment, so we are not seeing him at his best. Time will tell if that's an anomaly or whether it's a sign that he's too dependent on a particular type of car. But I don't think 4 races in is enough time to form a judgement


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 9:15 am 
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Greg92 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Greg92 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Could Alonso achieve what Vettel achieved in Vettel's cars?
Quite likely

Could Vettel achieve what Alonso achieved in Alonso's cars?
Based on current evidence, no


What evidence?

Gary Anderson wrote:
As for Sebastian Vettel, he is still trying to drive a car with the exhaust-blown diffuser. With that design, at the corner exit it was all about getting the throttle open and getting the extra rear grip the exhaust gases offered.

In 2013, he was the master of this and the Red Bull had the best system. But that is all gone now and he needs to change his driving style to suit the current specification cars.


Dude needs to learn how to adapt. The very best can change with the times quite quickly.

Couple his current lack of form with his dodgy first half of 2012 (a time when Red Bull did not have the rear end stability he was used to) and we're seeing a pattern. He's too used to one type of car - a vehicle with a rear end planted to the ground, something Ferrari have sorely lacked over the years.


That's not evidence though, it's an opinion. Not saying it's wrong but it's not exactly a damning piece of evidence.

2012, wasn't it the year we had 7 different winners in the first 7 races? I ask because I strongly doubt it was simply about lack of downforce. But even so, Vettel wasn't doing too bad after 10 races. He was 10 points behind Webber and 44 behind Alonso, true, but he also had a DNF from the lead and a no-point race from the fourth due to the collision with Narain (if you blame Narain too like FIA did) which would actually give Vettel the lead had they not happened. I hate digging these excuses and I'm not saying Vettel performed better than Alonso in the first half but you can't say he was doing poorly either.

Anyway, your entire logic is based on the assumption that Alonso would do at least as well as Vettel on the kind of cars that fitted Vettel so well while Vettel would definitely do worse than Alonso in the kind of cars that fitted Alonso. Right or wrong, this is nothing else but an assumption. It's as valid as saying that had Alonso joined Kimi at Lotus this year instead Kimi would be kicking his butt while having a Magnum.


Oh, dear, oh, dear...

Vettel was at fault with Narain, and that was perfectly shown in diagrams posted at the time. And still he was calling names, in incredibly poor form... It is astonishing how some people still thought that the guy was fundamentally cool and a nice guy... (Stewards made the wrong call. It wasn't the first time, it won't be the last, regretfully)

Vettel did it agin with Mark Webber in Turkey 2010, where he crashed with his own teammate, completely his fault, and still had the nerve to be making gestures with his finger calling Webber crazy. But I guess he knew the team would support him and not Webber...

He still had time to crash into Button in Spa 2010.

That he was able to win the championship after two such showings of poor driving and judgement speaks of the huge car advantage he had that year.

Still, in order to win in 2010 he needed the team to chastise his teammate in ways we have not seen since the Schumacher days. He needed his teammate to give him his front wing after he crashed his, even though Webber was still in the race for the WDC (still was very much in the fight, ahead of Vettel in the last race of the year, btw), and he got it...
Of course, it was Ferrari who got the stick when they asked Massa to move over... even though Massa did not have a chance in hell to win it...

And still, if not for a Ferrari Giga-blunder in the last race, Alonso would have won it.

In 2012 his car advantage was even larger, and got incredibly lucky that, when he crashed in the last race, in a usually-race-enging-manner, he was not out of it by some miracle. He almost lost that WDC against Alonso, who was not even driving the second-best car...

Talk about evidence...

But if you want more, it is funny how every driver finds his own worst year against Alonso* and the recovers... Or how in retrospect such driver's peak was just the year before they paired Alonso... irrespective of evidence... For instance, with Massa, people have been blaming his accident, even though Massa qualified P2 ahead of Alonso, and finished P2 behind Alonso, in their first race together (hardly the performance of a person at the start of a difficult 4 year recovery period)

*Still, not every driver finds his worst against Alonso, Hamilton found his best, in 2007. But they were pretty equal in points and performance, almost all along the way, even though Alonso had to make a huge change in driving style, from the weird choppy 2005-2006 Michelin one to the smooth BStone one.

So sorry then, but if Ricciardo keeps beating Vettel, and even more if he does to such an extent, it will not reflect well on Vettel's years, simply because the evidence was already there... And it has nothing to do with wins or titles, or lack of them, but with watching and following the races and seeing how they develop.

Still, this is not to say that Vettel is a bad driver... On the contrary, he's a very good one. He's gotten better with the years and makes more of his advantage when he has it, and seems to be pretty attentive and thorough in his preparation.
But he is not a great driver. He has made too many mistakes when having a big car advantage. Huge mistakes that almost permitted another driver, in a lesser car, to win two of his WDCs. This is pretty damming evidence.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 10:24 am 
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tootsie323 wrote:
Taking a look at Fernando's own stats:
From 2005 to 2007, he had arguably one of the top cars. 2004 and 2008-09 when he had a less-dominant Renault he had a high frequency of 4th- and 5th-placed race finishes. However, from 2010 to 2013 with the Ferrari his highest frequency in race-finishing positions has been from 1st to 3rd. Most of us are of the opinion that Fernando's performances in 2012 cemented his stauts as a top driver.
The question this raises for me is where Sebastian is in terms of the above. Is he at the stage in his career that Fernando was in 2008-09, in which case, 4th / 5th-place finishes might be ok against Fernando's baseline, or should he be at the 2010-13 level?
This is making a big assumption that the RB itself is on a par with the Renault of 2008-09 against the competiton today. Conversely it's worth bearing in mind that the Mercs presetn advantage means that realistically the best that any competition should expect for now is 3rd!

Arguably??! Not really - there are few that believe Alonso was not in one of the top cars 2005-2007.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 11:14 am 
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LKS1 wrote:
Arguably??! Not really - there are few that believe Alonso was not in one of the top cars 2005-2007.

The 2005 McLaren was clearly faster than the Renault but quite less reliable. Both Kimi and Montoya won several races with some ease.
The 2006 Ferrari was probably a bit faster aswell because you could see Massa getting very strong results.
The 2007 Ferrari was maybe a bit faster than the McLaren over the full season because both Kimi and Massa were winning races... based on Kimi and Massa performances vs Alonso as team-mates, it suggests that the 2007 Ferrari was the best car.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 11:49 am 
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nixxxon wrote:
LKS1 wrote:
Arguably??! Not really - there are few that believe Alonso was not in one of the top cars 2005-2007.

The 2005 McLaren was clearly faster than the Renault but quite less reliable. Both Kimi and Montoya won several races with some ease.
The 2006 Ferrari was probably a bit faster aswell because you could see Massa getting very strong results.
The 2007 Ferrari was maybe a bit faster than the McLaren over the full season because both Kimi and Massa were winning races... based on Kimi and Massa performances vs Alonso as team-mates, it suggests that the 2007 Ferrari was the best car.

2005 - I agree the Mclaren was faster, but far less reliable than the Renault - making the Renault one of the best teams.

2006 - The Renault was faster at the beginning of the season, but the Ferrari was faster at the end of the season. Making Renault one of the best teams.

2007 - I believe (but could be wrong) that Alonso agreed that the Mclaren was the best car. It was certainly one of the best teams.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 11:52 am 
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nixxxon wrote:
LKS1 wrote:
Arguably??! Not really - there are few that believe Alonso was not in one of the top cars 2005-2007.

The 2005 McLaren was clearly faster than the Renault but quite less reliable. Both Kimi and Montoya won several races with some ease.
The 2006 Ferrari was probably a bit faster aswell because you could see Massa getting very strong results.
The 2007 Ferrari was maybe a bit faster than the McLaren over the full season because both Kimi and Massa were winning races... based on Kimi and Massa performances vs Alonso as team-mates, it suggests that the 2007 Ferrari was the best car.


In 2005. The McLaren was faster, but the renault more reliable. They were equal over the course of the season. The renault was probably slightly better.
2006. Renault and Alonso were faster in the first half of the season. Ferrari were faster in the second half after Renault had their mass damper banned. They were equal over the season.

In 2007. McLaren and Ferrari were equal. Because they were both identical cars ;) :-P

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 1:32 pm 
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I believe Nixxxon's point was my use of the word 'arguably' about Fernando having one of the top cars from 2005-07. One of the top cars, not necessarily the best car. I suppose there isn't much to argue against the 2005-06 Renaults or 2007 McLaren being one of the top cars.

As to the other comments, perhaps it isn't spot-on to compare Fernando's results from 2008-09 to Sebastian's results to date this year. At the same time, it's a little early to write off Seb frmo being one of the top-tier drivers (or a potential'great') just yet.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 1:40 pm 
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tootsie323 wrote:
I believe Nixxxon's point was my use of the word 'arguably' about Fernando having one of the top cars from 2005-07. One of the top cars, not necessarily the best car. I suppose there isn't much to argue against the 2005-06 Renaults or 2007 McLaren being one of the top cars.

As to the other comments, perhaps it isn't spot-on to compare Fernando's results from 2008-09 to Sebastian's results to date this year. At the same time, it's a little early to write off Seb frmo being one of the top-tier drivers (or a potential'great') just yet.

Which is why we learn to differentiate between 'one of the best cars' and 'arguably one of the best cars'....

Edit - there is no "arguably" about Alonso being in one of the best cars from '05 through to '07.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 6:44 pm 
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LKS1 wrote:
Which is why we learn to differentiate between 'one of the best cars' and 'arguably one of the best cars'....

Edit - there is no "arguably" about Alonso being in one of the best cars from '05 through to '07.


I would agree Alonso had the best car 05-07. McLaren would have won in 07 without spygate or the flimsy battle between Lewis and Nando.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 11:58 pm 
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Greg92 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Could Alonso achieve what Vettel achieved in Vettel's cars?
Quite likely

Could Vettel achieve what Alonso achieved in Alonso's cars?
Based on current evidence, no


What evidence?

I'm guessing the current evidence of the last two races although that wouldn't be a lot to go on

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 12:01 am 
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F1yer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
LKS1 wrote:
I'm glad I'm not the only one getting confused :lol: !

Unfortunately the post numbers have disappeared on my computer - so I'll repeat an earlier post:-



As for Alonso, (IMO) he's a great driver - but not a good 'team' player and its no shock when he claims 'Lewis is the best I've ever raced' (bearing in mind Lewis beat him) or 'Seb needs to prove himself in an inferior car' (bearing in mind Seb has been beating him in the RBR)....

i.e. Alonso's utterances can be completely ignored (IMO), as he's egotistical enough to say whatever he thinks will reflect best on himself.

Having said all that ( :lol: ), I do agree that this season should show whether or not Seb's dominance was due to his comfort under the old regs.

Edit - I have to add that I think Schumi was being honest when he said that the driver he feared most was Mika, even though Alonso beat him in '06 when (over the season) their cars were pretty equal.

You've lost me there were Vettel has proven himself in a inferior car by beating Alonso in the Red Bull


I stopped twice at the same thing. Implication being Redbull is inferior to Ferrari.
Then again - there were times when the Ferrari was faster and Vettel was still ahead - admittedly the other way round as well.

Anyway this year the Ferari is roughly equal - lets see who comes on top between Alonso and Vettel.

No the Red Bull is the second fastest car so they are not roughly equal

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 12:07 am 
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Greg92 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Greg92 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Could Alonso achieve what Vettel achieved in Vettel's cars?
Quite likely

Could Vettel achieve what Alonso achieved in Alonso's cars?
Based on current evidence, no


What evidence?

Gary Anderson wrote:
As for Sebastian Vettel, he is still trying to drive a car with the exhaust-blown diffuser. With that design, at the corner exit it was all about getting the throttle open and getting the extra rear grip the exhaust gases offered.

In 2013, he was the master of this and the Red Bull had the best system. But that is all gone now and he needs to change his driving style to suit the current specification cars.


Dude needs to learn how to adapt. The very best can change with the times quite quickly.

Couple his current lack of form with his dodgy first half of 2012 (a time when Red Bull did not have the rear end stability he was used to) and we're seeing a pattern. He's too used to one type of car - a vehicle with a rear end planted to the ground, something Ferrari have sorely lacked over the years.


That's not evidence though, it's an opinion. Not saying it's wrong but it's not exactly a damning piece of evidence.

2012, wasn't it the year we had 7 different winners in the first 7 races? I ask because I strongly doubt it was simply about lack of downforce. But even so, Vettel wasn't doing too bad after 10 races. He was 10 points behind Webber and 44 behind Alonso, true, but he also had a DNF from the lead and a no-point race from the fourth due to the collision with Narain (if you blame Narain too like FIA did) which would actually give Vettel the lead had they not happened. I hate digging these excuses and I'm not saying Vettel performed better than Alonso in the first half but you can't say he was doing poorly either.

Anyway, your entire logic is based on the assumption that Alonso would do at least as well as Vettel on the kind of cars that fitted Vettel so well while Vettel would definitely do worse than Alonso in the kind of cars that fitted Alonso. Right or wrong, this is nothing else but an assumption. It's as valid as saying that had Alonso joined Kimi at Lotus this year instead Kimi would be kicking his butt while having a Magnum.

Even Red Bull have said that Vettel is struggling with rear stability and this in a car that has got the best downforce maybe even better than the Mercedes, it does ask questions about the Vettel domination and possible dependence on the best EDB in the business

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 12:09 am 
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WHoff78 wrote:
Ha, I know this is an argument that no-one will ever win, but when you define best do you consider consistency or ability to deliver when it matters most. You’d have to put Vettel up there on that one, but I’d rather discuss Hamilton and Alonso. Alonso always seems to deliver, regardless of the car or situation, at least from what I can remember. I’ve wondered lately whether Hamilton tends to lose focus a little when the competitors are out of reach, or maybe focus on other aspects of his life. After all work isn’t everything. Take last season – Hamilton peaked in the summer, but when Vettel started to dominate he seemed to drop off compared to Rosberg. If that is the case, then does it matter providing he peaks when he does have the equipment to win. I think this is one of the reasons people rate Alonso so highly, and rightfully so. But, does it make him better?

Hamilton had a cracked chassis for about 3 races, his performance was much improved when it was changed

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 12:16 am 
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tootsie323 wrote:
Taking a look at Fernando's own stats:
From 2005 to 2007, he had arguably one of the top cars. 2004 and 2008-09 when he had a less-dominant Renault he had a high frequency of 4th- and 5th-placed race finishes. However, from 2010 to 2013 with the Ferrari his highest frequency in race-finishing positions has been from 1st to 3rd. Most of us are of the opinion that Fernando's performances in 2012 cemented his stauts as a top driver.
The question this raises for me is where Sebastian is in terms of the above. Is he at the stage in his career that Fernando was in 2008-09, in which case, 4th / 5th-place finishes might be ok against Fernando's baseline, or should he be at the 2010-13 level?
This is making a big assumption that the RB itself is on a par with the Renault of 2008-09 against the competiton today. Conversely it's worth bearing in mind that the Mercs presetn advantage means that realistically the best that any competition should expect for now is 3rd!

For a start Vettel has a better car this year than what Alonso had in 2008/2009, more like the Ferrari of 2010 but better than the ones after, the problem is that the gap to Mercedes seems bigger than the gaps were to Red Bull.

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Last edited by pokerman on Sun Apr 27, 2014 12:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 12:20 am 
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LKS1 wrote:
nixxxon wrote:
LKS1 wrote:
Arguably??! Not really - there are few that believe Alonso was not in one of the top cars 2005-2007.

The 2005 McLaren was clearly faster than the Renault but quite less reliable. Both Kimi and Montoya won several races with some ease.
The 2006 Ferrari was probably a bit faster aswell because you could see Massa getting very strong results.
The 2007 Ferrari was maybe a bit faster than the McLaren over the full season because both Kimi and Massa were winning races... based on Kimi and Massa performances vs Alonso as team-mates, it suggests that the 2007 Ferrari was the best car.

2005 - I agree the Mclaren was faster, but far less reliable than the Renault - making the Renault one of the best teams.

2006 - The Renault was faster at the beginning of the season, but the Ferrari was faster at the end of the season. Making Renault one of the best teams.

2007 - I believe (but could be wrong) that Alonso agreed that the Mclaren was the best car. It was certainly one of the best teams.

But after having both Massa and Kimi now as teammates would he still think that?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 12:22 am 
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RunningMan wrote:
nixxxon wrote:
LKS1 wrote:
Arguably??! Not really - there are few that believe Alonso was not in one of the top cars 2005-2007.

The 2005 McLaren was clearly faster than the Renault but quite less reliable. Both Kimi and Montoya won several races with some ease.
The 2006 Ferrari was probably a bit faster aswell because you could see Massa getting very strong results.
The 2007 Ferrari was maybe a bit faster than the McLaren over the full season because both Kimi and Massa were winning races... based on Kimi and Massa performances vs Alonso as team-mates, it suggests that the 2007 Ferrari was the best car.


In 2005. The McLaren was faster, but the renault more reliable. They were equal over the course of the season. The renault was probably slightly better.
2006. Renault and Alonso were faster in the first half of the season. Ferrari were faster in the second half after Renault had their mass damper banned. They were equal over the season.

In 2007. McLaren and Ferrari were equal. Because they were both identical cars ;) :-P

Yes because they performed identically or maybe they didn't?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 12:28 am 
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It was a spygate joke....

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 12:36 am 
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RunningMan wrote:
It was a spygate joke....

But hard to know which way to take it

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 8:27 am 
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Hardly anybody makes it through the entire career without having the periods of struggle and interrupted dominance. Achieving the summit is a very difficult deed, staying on it for a prolonged time is quite rarely achieved. But not finding oneself there anymore and struggling again is rather a rule. I suppose Alonso's wise words come out from some personal realizations from his own life. He dethroned the great Schumacher, becoming the multiple champion himself and making himself a big name in F1, the future titles seemed to be belonging to him... and then he went winning nothing anymore since. He even spent a couple of years almost unnoticed (wasn't there for that 'Crash-gate', he would be hardly remembered from that particular period). In 2009, Alonso ended as 9th in WDC. So his "prophetic" words sound to me more as "retrospective". So he knew it well himself how it did feel...

Alonso has been beaten by Vettel 5 years in row. This year neither of the teams comes out as particularly dominant/excellent, both of the teams have been struggling, and Vettel himself has been struggling as compared to Alonso. But I tend to believe that Alonso will still end up behind Vettel this year too, nevertheless, again.
(so my words got the chance to turn out to be either prophetic or... pathetic)


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 12:08 pm 
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Prema wrote:
Alonso has been beaten by Vettel 5 years in row.

FFS :uhoh:

And look at the drubbing Alonso dished out to Vettel in 2008. Same thing.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 2:25 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
Prema wrote:
Alonso has been beaten by Vettel 5 years in row.

FFS :uhoh:

And look at the drubbing Alonso dished out to Vettel in 2008. Same thing.


Great. Hopefully, Alonso has gotten a good remembrance so he can balance out these latest 5 years + 4 WDC of Vettel against him dishing out Vettel back in 2008. As you say, same thing...


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 3:06 pm 
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Prema wrote:
Hardly anybody makes it through the entire career without having the periods of struggle and interrupted dominance. Achieving the summit is a very difficult deed, staying on it for a prolonged time is quite rarely achieved. But not finding oneself there anymore and struggling again is rather a rule. I suppose Alonso's wise words come out from some personal realizations from his own life. He dethroned the great Schumacher, becoming the multiple champion himself and making himself a big name in F1, the future titles seemed to be belonging to him... and then he went winning nothing anymore since. He even spent a couple of years almost unnoticed (wasn't there for that 'Crash-gate', he would be hardly remembered from that particular period). In 2009, Alonso ended as 9th in WDC. So his "prophetic" words sound to me more as "retrospective". So he knew it well himself how it did feel...

Alonso has been beaten by Vettel 5 years in row. This year neither of the teams comes out as particularly dominant/excellent, both of the teams have been struggling, and Vettel himself has been struggling as compared to Alonso. But I tend to believe that Alonso will still end up behind Vettel this year too, nevertheless, again.
(so my words got the chance to turn out to be either prophetic or... pathetic)


Alonso was not getting his pickle handed to him by his teammate, like Vettel is getting. So, wrong comparison.

Alonso was right. Vettel's stock value is tanking every practice, every qualyfying session and every race Ricciardo humiliates him.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 3:06 pm 
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this is getting ridiculous.....

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 3:14 pm 
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fabr68 wrote:
Prema wrote:
Hardly anybody makes it through the entire career without having the periods of struggle and interrupted dominance. Achieving the summit is a very difficult deed, staying on it for a prolonged time is quite rarely achieved. But not finding oneself there anymore and struggling again is rather a rule. I suppose Alonso's wise words come out from some personal realizations from his own life. He dethroned the great Schumacher, becoming the multiple champion himself and making himself a big name in F1, the future titles seemed to be belonging to him... and then he went winning nothing anymore since. He even spent a couple of years almost unnoticed (wasn't there for that 'Crash-gate', he would be hardly remembered from that particular period). In 2009, Alonso ended as 9th in WDC. So his "prophetic" words sound to me more as "retrospective". So he knew it well himself how it did feel...

Alonso has been beaten by Vettel 5 years in row. This year neither of the teams comes out as particularly dominant/excellent, both of the teams have been struggling, and Vettel himself has been struggling as compared to Alonso. But I tend to believe that Alonso will still end up behind Vettel this year too, nevertheless, again.
(so my words got the chance to turn out to be either prophetic or... pathetic)


Alonso was not getting his pickle handed to him by his teammate, like Vettel is getting. So, wrong comparison.

Alonso was right. Vettel's stock value is tanking every practice, every qualyfying session and every race Ricciardo humiliates him.


Why? Ricciardo has looked the better driver for the last 2 races - Webber sometimes did better than Vettel as well. I think we need a much bigger sample than 2 races before Vettels rep goes anywhere.


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