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 Post subject: F1 with 11 or 13 teams?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 12:35 pm 
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With Haas and Kolles Racing (or whatever they will call it), it will be the first time since long we might have a full grid in F1 next year meaning 26 cars lining up for a race.
Even though that sounds exciting on paper, looking how Caterham and Marussia been struggling to get into the midfield and even now in their 5 th season (theoretically their third but we all know they started in 2010 under a different name and are still run by more or less the same people) and still are only fighting each other to not finish last in the WCC and unable to get a single point.
I actually don't know if I ever saw such a long run of uncompetitivity. Most teams without any success for such a long period of time would have left already.

Anyway I rather see an F1 with 11 teams with a good division over top teams and midfield teams than one with always the same 2 teams at the back. I don't expect the new teams for 2015 to be midfield right away (even though Jordan pretty much did that in 1991, Sauber in 1993). Force India taking over fading Jordan/Midland/Spyker team managed to become a midfield runner in approximately one and a half season. I rather have the future newbies replacing Caterham and Marussia over having a full grid. I really don't have any trust that Caterham or Marussia are ever going anyhow forward. Having a clear advantage over Lotus after pre season testing, Lotus overhauled them already easily after 4 races (despite losing Kimi, Boullier among others).

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 2:20 pm 
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More the merrier in my eyes, even if they are all slow. F1 needs backmarkers, someone has to come last every race and if you have nothing but the big boys racing they will eventually get tired of coming last and *inaudible* off somewhere else.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 2:46 pm 
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I don't understand how having 2 extra teams would make the show worse?


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:46 pm 
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More cars, more opportunities for young drivers and you would imagine more battles (probably at the back). Bring them on!

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 6:05 pm 
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I would say give us 15 or 20 teams. Give us 1 car teams again. And a maximum of 30 car grids.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 6:15 pm 
Formula One has always had backmarkers, some very embarrassing. But that is the nature of a healthy and competitive series, new teams coming in, and sadly some never going anywhere. Frank Williams bounced along the bottom for many years, and it took him a very long time to find success. But the door has to be open, they have to be at least given a chance, even if they fail miserably.

Even though Formula One is a bit of a closed club, the door has to remain open for new teams. If not, then no one enters, and eventually teams depart.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 6:57 pm 
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it will give the opportunity for more young drivers to enter the sport and show what theyve got, even if some of them are 'pay drivers'


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 9:55 pm 
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There are too many good drivers out there to have any less than 11 teams in the sport, and, anyways, there will always be a team that's 'last'. Having said that, the realiability of F1 cars today makes it very hard for the bottom teams to get any points over the course of the season. If we were to have 12/13 teams, I'd recommend there to be a restructure of the points system to allow there to be some proper competition at the end of the field.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 11:02 am 
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More the merrier in my opinion.

The leaders need to get over themselves and realise that this isn't all about them. Backmarkers are a fact of racing, they need to be there for there to be a sport. If Sebastian (whos made several comments about back markers in his four years at the front) can't deal with having to pass a slower car he should retire.

The more teams in the sport, gives more talent more opportunities to shine. If it weren't for a back marker we'd not have to the likes of Webber, Alonso, Hill etc.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 11:07 am 
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Seanie wrote:

The more teams in the sport, gives more talent more opportunities to shine. If it weren't for a back marker we'd not have to the likes of Webber, Alonso, Hill etc.


Totally agree with that. However, more teams could also be a recipe for more pay drivers? Especially if the new teams are just backmarkers.

I think if there were to be more teams, there should be like a Mercedes B team, Ferrari B team etc. They won't need to worry about pay drivers because of a strong financial position and they can just focus on getting raw talent in reasonably competitive cars.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 11:17 am 
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PrancingRocket_ wrote:
Seanie wrote:

The more teams in the sport, gives more talent more opportunities to shine. If it weren't for a back marker we'd not have to the likes of Webber, Alonso, Hill etc.


Totally agree with that. However, more teams could also be a recipe for more pay drivers? Especially if the new teams are just backmarkers.

I think if there were to be more teams, there should be like a Mercedes B team, Ferrari B team etc. They won't need to worry about pay drivers because of a strong financial position and they can just focus on getting raw talent in reasonably competitive cars.

Pay drivers can be talented too.

I agree, there should be some sort of restrictions on b-teams and pay drivers.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 11:46 am 
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While more teams would be nice the reality of the situation is we are likely to lose teams sooner or later rather than gain them. The jury is still firmly out of Haas and Kolles efforts making it and Caterham, Sauber and Marussia are looking increasingly perilous in their positions.

As I said before we could end up with as few as 9 teams next year.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 11:54 am 
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Laura23 wrote:
While more teams would be nice the reality of the situation is we are likely to lose teams sooner or later rather than gain them. The jury is still firmly out of Haas and Kolles efforts making it and Caterham, Sauber and Marussia are looking increasingly perilous in their positions.

As I said before we could end up with as few as 9 teams next year.


We won't have three teams drop out and none come in. That is very unlikely. Financially the world is on the up and business is looking to grow. My guess would be 11 teams next year. Gaining Haas and losing Caterham. But 12 teams would not surprise me as well its certainly much more likely than 9.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:04 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
While more teams would be nice the reality of the situation is we are likely to lose teams sooner or later rather than gain them. The jury is still firmly out of Haas and Kolles efforts making it and Caterham, Sauber and Marussia are looking increasingly perilous in their positions.

As I said before we could end up with as few as 9 teams next year.


We won't have three teams drop out and none come in. That is very unlikely. Financially the world is on the up and business is looking to grow. My guess would be 11 teams next year. Gaining Haas and losing Caterham. But 12 teams would not surprise me as well its certainly much more likely than 9.

We shall see. But people didn't see BMW or Toyota pulling out at the end of 2009 and it happened so I wouldn't rule anything out.

Even if the world is gaining strength economically again some of the F1 teams are most certainly not.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:07 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
While more teams would be nice the reality of the situation is we are likely to lose teams sooner or later rather than gain them. The jury is still firmly out of Haas and Kolles efforts making it and Caterham, Sauber and Marussia are looking increasingly perilous in their positions.

As I said before we could end up with as few as 9 teams next year.


We won't have three teams drop out and none come in. That is very unlikely. Financially the world is on the up and business is looking to grow. My guess would be 11 teams next year. Gaining Haas and losing Caterham. But 12 teams would not surprise me as well its certainly much more likely than 9.

We shall see. But people didn't see BMW or Toyota pulling out at the end of 2009 and it happened so I wouldn't rule anything out.

Even if the world is gaining strength economically again some of the F1 teams are most certainly not.


That will come though. We are in a very different time now than 2009 and lets not forget - even then 3 teams came in at the end of the season.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:08 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
While more teams would be nice the reality of the situation is we are likely to lose teams sooner or later rather than gain them. The jury is still firmly out of Haas and Kolles efforts making it and Caterham, Sauber and Marussia are looking increasingly perilous in their positions.

As I said before we could end up with as few as 9 teams next year.


We won't have three teams drop out and none come in. That is very unlikely. Financially the world is on the up and business is looking to grow. My guess would be 11 teams next year. Gaining Haas and losing Caterham. But 12 teams would not surprise me as well its certainly much more likely than 9.

We shall see. But people didn't see BMW or Toyota pulling out at the end of 2009 and it happened so I wouldn't rule anything out.

Even if the world is gaining strength economically again some of the F1 teams are most certainly not.


That will come though. We are in a very different time now than 2009 and lets not forget - even then 3 teams came in at the end of the season.

Thanks to the new rules these teams have spent more money than they have in years and it's really been affecting some of them. I don't see it clear that some will get through it tbh.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:14 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
While more teams would be nice the reality of the situation is we are likely to lose teams sooner or later rather than gain them. The jury is still firmly out of Haas and Kolles efforts making it and Caterham, Sauber and Marussia are looking increasingly perilous in their positions.

As I said before we could end up with as few as 9 teams next year.


We won't have three teams drop out and none come in. That is very unlikely. Financially the world is on the up and business is looking to grow. My guess would be 11 teams next year. Gaining Haas and losing Caterham. But 12 teams would not surprise me as well its certainly much more likely than 9.

We shall see. But people didn't see BMW or Toyota pulling out at the end of 2009 and it happened so I wouldn't rule anything out.

Even if the world is gaining strength economically again some of the F1 teams are most certainly not.


That will come though. We are in a very different time now than 2009 and lets not forget - even then 3 teams came in at the end of the season.

Thanks to the new rules these teams have spent more money than they have in years and it's really been affecting some of them. I don't see it clear that some will get through it tbh.


No, I agree we could lose a team maybe even two. I was saying that the chances of us losing 3 teams and the 2 new start ups failing was very small.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:19 pm 
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I'm not so sure it is such a small chance if I'm honest. I don't want it to happen but perhaps it'd be the shot in the arm F1 needs to finally get budget caps in place.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:26 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
I'm not so sure it is such a small chance if I'm honest. I don't want it to happen but perhaps it'd be the shot in the arm F1 needs to finally get budget caps in place.


Its a tiny chance.

Caterham could go that is probably the most likely. I would say thats about 60% likely to happen.

Marrussia will probably stay. There is a lot of money coming out of Russia ATM. I just can't see them folding. They may change hands though.

Sauber is being very badly run ATM but I can't see the company folding. They would most likely be sold if they could no longer afford to run. They have great infrastructure and little debt. I'd say its a remote chance the team could fold completely.

Haas i think is 60% likely to happen. Its not just something that's been thought up in a lunch break.

Other new team I know nothing about so let say its unlikely to get off the ground.

For all those teams not to be on the grid next year is a very small chance. I mean surely less than 1%.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:28 pm 
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Most of teams struggle all the time, yet they mostly survive. Since 2007 when the global economy started to collapse F1 lost 3 teams. Super Aguri, Toyota and HRT. That is like 1 team every 2/3 years. In Oz we still should see at least 10 teams.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:33 pm 
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The more the merrier, that leave smore driver seats and more chance for talent to come through. The only caveat I would add is that all participating teams need to get a fair slice of revenue.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 7:07 pm 
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More the merrier. But won't mind seeing Toro Rosso disappear for good.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 7:07 pm 
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It's good for new drivers however I think the F1 pool for sponsorship is pretty low as it is. Adding more teams and actually being able to lure in more money into the sports will not be easy.

Additionally this is assuming the current teams survive. I would not be surprised to see one or two of the current teams being sold or going under.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:15 pm 
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funkymonkey wrote:
More the merrier. But won't mind seeing Toro Rosso disappear for good.

Ferrari and Mercedes are more likely to get B-teams unless Red Bull really run in to issues imo.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 2:33 am 
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AngusWolfe wrote:
funkymonkey wrote:
More the merrier. But won't mind seeing Toro Rosso disappear for good.

Ferrari and Mercedes are more likely to get B-teams unless Red Bull really run in to issues imo.


I have no issues with technical collaboration, driver academies or customer cars. In fact I like all 3. I have issues with parent team controlling on track behaviour of sister team drivers. Only Toro Rosso does that at the moment thanks to RedBull.
You do not see Sauber or Force India drivers moving aside for Ferrari and/or McLaren. But you regularly see Toro Rosso drivers spreading red carpet for RedBull. This has been discussed to death in other thread though.

But yes, I do not mind new teams in F1. HRT were hopeless, but I still have respect for their drivers and team members and what they tried to do on track. Toro Rosso on the other hand boil my blood. I dont mind seeing new teams starting at back. I just hope teams like Marussia and Caterham manage to be little more competitive. This year was their great chance but they are still massively slower. But these teams still have their place in F1. In fact I would like to see teams like these be in a position to buy and run a customer car from top team. Get chassis, basic aero and suspension package, engine and gearbox and let them develop the car over season.

The main issue facing these teams in modern F1 is highly technical nature of the sport and costs involved to develop the car from scratch. This is not 70s or 80s anymore. Those days are long gone and cannot come back where people ran teams out of a small garage or warehouse.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 4:58 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Formula One has always had backmarkers, some very embarrassing. But that is the nature of a healthy and competitive series, new teams coming in, and sadly some never going anywhere. Frank Williams bounced along the bottom for many years, and it took him a very long time to find success. But the door has to be open, they have to be at least given a chance, even if they fail miserably.

Even though Formula One is a bit of a closed club, the door has to remain open for new teams. If not, then no one enters, and eventually teams depart.

Yeah. And it's really sad to see some people want to destroy F1 not only through budget race, but parts monopoly race. Both will cause huge problems for the sport down the line :(


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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2014 6:37 am 
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Anyone remember back in 1989 when we had pre qualifying? 30 + cars competing for 26 slots!


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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2014 7:27 am 
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TBWG wrote:
Anyone remember back in 1989 when we had pre qualifying? 30 + cars competing for 26 slots!


Since 1989 was the year I started watching F1 on a reular basis I very much remember it. It was normal back than but such a thing nowadays would be seen as totally crazy I bet.
Teams came and went very quickly those days. I think Coloni lasted pretty long despite not qualifying for a single race for 1990 and 1991. In 1992 they were taken over by the infamous Andrea Moda team who did fare a little better but didn't even last a full season. 1990 gave us the most awful team ever in Life F1 racing.

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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2014 10:04 am 
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funkymonkey wrote:
AngusWolfe wrote:
funkymonkey wrote:
More the merrier. But won't mind seeing Toro Rosso disappear for good.

Ferrari and Mercedes are more likely to get B-teams unless Red Bull really run in to issues imo.


I have no issues with technical collaboration, driver academies or customer cars. In fact I like all 3. I have issues with parent team controlling on track behaviour of sister team drivers. Only Toro Rosso does that at the moment thanks to RedBull.
You do not see Sauber or Force India drivers moving aside for Ferrari and/or McLaren. But you regularly see Toro Rosso drivers spreading red carpet for RedBull. This has been discussed to death in other thread though.

But yes, I do not mind new teams in F1. HRT were hopeless, but I still have respect for their drivers and team members and what they tried to do on track. Toro Rosso on the other hand boil my blood. I dont mind seeing new teams starting at back. I just hope teams like Marussia and Caterham manage to be little more competitive. This year was their great chance but they are still massively slower. But these teams still have their place in F1. In fact I would like to see teams like these be in a position to buy and run a customer car from top team. Get chassis, basic aero and suspension package, engine and gearbox and let them develop the car over season.

The main issue facing these teams in modern F1 is highly technical nature of the sport and costs involved to develop the car from scratch. This is not 70s or 80s anymore. Those days are long gone and cannot come back where people ran teams out of a small garage or warehouse.

I have no doubt Sauber usually helped Ferrari on track in the late 90s/early 00s. And any time they have had Ferrari engines they have typically side with them politically too.

Not saying they do the on-track stuff now but they did once. Used to drive me mad too.

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