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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:45 am 
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Nice quotes from Jackie Stewart...

Who is the best driver?
"Mentally, probably Alonso," he told Marca, adding: "The fastest is perhaps Lewis Hamilton"

"In the world there are hundreds of millions of drivers, several thousand make their living from it, a few hundred live very well"

"There are 22 grand prix drivers, maybe six of them are really good, three exceptional, but there is only one genius. So if I had to choose the most complete driver I would say Alonso."

source http://www.gptoday.com/full_story/view/ ... +1+News%29


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:51 am 
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He's not far off on some points, although I'm often surprised at how even seasoned veterans of the sport can let car performance colour their judgement of a driver. I don't agree with his views on Rosberg at all, putting him on a level with Vettel. I've seen far more overtakes from Vettel in challenging situations than I've seen from Rosberg, for example. Rosberg's not done anything to show he rates as one of the best, or that he's better than Button, or Kimi, or even Ricciardo for that matter.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 12:07 pm 
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Interesting how we rate drivers based on results - when the 'car' has a lot to say before we then consider 'results'

Winning (or not) often has an element of luck and that aside, we can determine over time whether takent (or luck) has been the factor

so results don't always make it


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 12:19 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
He's not far off on some points, although I'm often surprised at how even seasoned veterans of the sport can let car performance colour their judgement of a driver. I don't agree with his views on Rosberg at all, putting him on a level with Vettel. I've seen far more overtakes from Vettel in challenging situations than I've seen from Rosberg, for example. Rosberg's not done anything to show he rates as one of the best, or that he's better than Button, or Kimi, or even Ricciardo for that matter.


+1

No doubt Rosberg is a good driver (one of the really good that he mentions would be debatable IMO) but he is not at Vettel's level by a fair margin. Vettel has had the best car in his 4 WDCs, no denying, but I think he has more than proven he is an exceptional driver. Rosberg has benefitted from a car with a bigger advantage over the rest of the field than what RB showed most of the time. In a way it reminds me of Brawn/Button combo, with the unfortunate circumstance that Rosberg does not have a Barrichello as a teammate but arguably the current fastest driver.

Other than that I agree with most of what Stewart says.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 12:19 pm 
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Quote:
I don't agree with his views on Rosberg at all, putting him on a level with Vettel.

I put him higher than Vettel...Rosberg had teamates like Hamilton,Schumi...drivers from other "level"...Vettel never had a "top teamate" and now Ricciardo is beating him constantly...


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 12:22 pm 
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Having only read the OPs quotes, I would agree. Alonso best all around, Hamilton faster.

It's all well and good judging drivers from our armchairs, but Stewart knows what he's talking about. Not only was he one of the strongest drivers of his era, he also managed talent for many years. I'd trust Stewart's opinion over most.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 12:23 pm 
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Rosberg has some way to go before he can be put on par with Vettel for me.

I like him & I think considering what he is doing in relation to Hamilton this year he is still very underated in general, but on par with Vettel? Not yet IMO.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 12:26 pm 
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dogboy wrote:
Quote:
I don't agree with his views on Rosberg at all, putting him on a level with Vettel.

I put him higher than Vettel...Rosberg had teamates like Hamilton,Schumi...drivers from other "level"...Vettel never had a "top teamate" and now Ricciardo is beating him constantly...


Schumi was way past his prime when he partnered Rosberg.

Hamilton has been partnered with Rosberg 2 years, in his first year at Merc he beat Rosberg, and that was coming new into a team where Rosberg was already established. This year Hamilton would be way ahead had it not been for the circumstances we all know, most of them no fault of Hamilton. In my book Rosberg is nowhere near Hamilton or Vettel.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 12:39 pm 
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Lotus38 wrote:
dogboy wrote:
Quote:
I don't agree with his views on Rosberg at all, putting him on a level with Vettel.

I put him higher than Vettel...Rosberg had teamates like Hamilton,Schumi...drivers from other "level"...Vettel never had a "top teamate" and now Ricciardo is beating him constantly...


Schumi was way past his prime when he partnered Rosberg.

Hamilton has been partnered with Rosberg 2 years, in his first year at Merc he beat Rosberg, and that was coming new into a team where Rosberg was already established. This year Hamilton would be way ahead had it not been for the circumstances we all know, most of them no fault of Hamilton.

Even a past his prime Schumacher is a challenge, and if you can carry on and finish the race while your team mate keeps getting DNFs or making mistakes, that's a point in Rosberg's favour imo. I believe you make your own luck. There has to be a reason Hamilton consistently balls things up, because I do think he's the faster driver.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 12:43 pm 
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AngusWolfe wrote:
Lotus38 wrote:
dogboy wrote:
Quote:
I don't agree with his views on Rosberg at all, putting him on a level with Vettel.

I put him higher than Vettel...Rosberg had teamates like Hamilton,Schumi...drivers from other "level"...Vettel never had a "top teamate" and now Ricciardo is beating him constantly...


Schumi was way past his prime when he partnered Rosberg.

Hamilton has been partnered with Rosberg 2 years, in his first year at Merc he beat Rosberg, and that was coming new into a team where Rosberg was already established. This year Hamilton would be way ahead had it not been for the circumstances we all know, most of them no fault of Hamilton.

Even a past his prime Schumacher is a challenge, and if you can carry on and finish the race while your team mate keeps getting DNFs or making mistakes, that's a point in Rosberg's favour imo. I believe you make your own luck. There has to be a reason Hamilton consistently balls things up, because I do think he's the faster driver.


I agree Schumacher is a challenge, but at Merc he only showed glimpses of his past former glory. A Schumacher in his prime would not have made the mistakes or caused the DNF's he did. For me Michael's performance at Merc can not be used as a benchmark to evaluate Rosberg's.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 1:20 pm 
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Lotus38 wrote:
AngusWolfe wrote:
Lotus38 wrote:
dogboy wrote:
Quote:
I don't agree with his views on Rosberg at all, putting him on a level with Vettel.

I put him higher than Vettel...Rosberg had teamates like Hamilton,Schumi...drivers from other "level"...Vettel never had a "top teamate" and now Ricciardo is beating him constantly...


Schumi was way past his prime when he partnered Rosberg.

Hamilton has been partnered with Rosberg 2 years, in his first year at Merc he beat Rosberg, and that was coming new into a team where Rosberg was already established. This year Hamilton would be way ahead had it not been for the circumstances we all know, most of them no fault of Hamilton.

Even a past his prime Schumacher is a challenge, and if you can carry on and finish the race while your team mate keeps getting DNFs or making mistakes, that's a point in Rosberg's favour imo. I believe you make your own luck. There has to be a reason Hamilton consistently balls things up, because I do think he's the faster driver.


I agree Schumacher is a challenge, but at Merc he only showed glimpses of his past former glory. A Schumacher in his prime would not have made the mistakes or caused the DNF's he did. For me Michael's performance at Merc can not be used as a benchmark to evaluate Rosberg's.

And there's the fact that during the races Schumacher often outclassed Rosberg, especially in his final year. It was only in qualifying where Rosberg had the advantage. In the races he was pretty mediocre. And this year Rosberg took 3/4 of a race to snatch 2nd place in China after ending the first lap in 4th, while Lewis has twice stormed back to the front from the very back of the grid. Rosberg is great at leading from the front, but not so much when he has to actually pass someone, despite having a much, much more powerful car. Lewis even got 3rd in Hungary, for crying out loud, where it's almost impossible to pass, and that's after starting from the pit lane. Rosberg has speed but little else


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 1:47 pm 
Lotus38 wrote:
Hamilton has been partnered with Rosberg 2 years, in his first year at Merc he beat Rosberg, and that was coming new into a team where Rosberg was already established. This year Hamilton would be way ahead had it not been for the circumstances we all know, most of them no fault of Hamilton. In my book Rosberg is nowhere near Hamilton or Vettel.


Well said, Hamilton is making mincemeat out of Rosberg, trouncing him in the ... uh, wait a second, Rosberg is presently leading in the points. What's wrong with this picture?

No doubt being quick is a job requirement for any Formula One driver. But being the quickest does not automatically equate into being the best driver. There are other requirements that are important too, and Rosberg has the upper hand in most of those, consistency, racecraft, and being smarter in the head game department.

That is why Stewart makes a clear distinction between being the "best" driver and the "quickest". And he's right, Alonso is a lion among the pigeons.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 1:54 pm 
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What a pisstake.
What has the genius done over the last 5 years?

Real genius is one who wins WDCs. Both Alonso and Hamilton have failed to win that in ages and doesnt look likely that either of them will in the near future

I am sick of this Aonso - Hamilton worship


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:00 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Lotus38 wrote:
Hamilton has been partnered with Rosberg 2 years, in his first year at Merc he beat Rosberg, and that was coming new into a team where Rosberg was already established. This year Hamilton would be way ahead had it not been for the circumstances we all know, most of them no fault of Hamilton. In my book Rosberg is nowhere near Hamilton or Vettel.


Well said, Hamilton is making mincemeat out of Rosberg, trouncing him in the ... uh, wait a second, Rosberg is presently leading in the points. What's wrong with this picture?

No doubt being quick is a job requirement for any Formula One driver. But being the quickest does not automatically equate into being the best driver. There are other requirements that are important too, and Rosberg has the upper hand in most of those, consistency, racecraft, and being smarter in the head game department.

That is why Stewart makes a clear distinction between being the "best" driver and the "quickest". And he's right, Alonso is a lion among the pigeons.

While I agree with your definitions, I question them as applied to Rosberg. In particular racecraft


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:01 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Lotus38 wrote:
Hamilton has been partnered with Rosberg 2 years, in his first year at Merc he beat Rosberg, and that was coming new into a team where Rosberg was already established. This year Hamilton would be way ahead had it not been for the circumstances we all know, most of them no fault of Hamilton. In my book Rosberg is nowhere near Hamilton or Vettel.


Well said, Hamilton is making mincemeat out of Rosberg, trouncing him in the ... uh, wait a second, Rosberg is presently leading in the points. What's wrong with this picture?

No doubt being quick is a job requirement for any Formula One driver. But being the quickest does not automatically equate into being the best driver. There are other requirements that are important too, and Rosberg has the upper hand in most of those, consistency, racecraft, and being smarter in the head game department.

That is why Stewart makes a clear distinction between being the "best" driver and the "quickest". And he's right, Alonso is a lion among the pigeons.

Hamilton has displayed greater ability in making his way through the pack and in keeping Rosberg behind when the German has an edge. I'd say Hamilton's race craft has been superior.

If you factor in the whole weekend where one driver's race is compromised, Rosberg and Hamilton have each had superior pace over the other on occasion. But Hamilton has never been far off Rosberg when the latter has the advantage. When the roles are reversed Rosberg has occasionally been some way off Hamilton. I'd say that makes Hamilton's consistency superior. They've both made some crucial errors in q3, though Hamilton's have been more recent.

Is Rosberg cleverer than Hamilton in any way that actually adds performance? I don't doubt he has a higher IQ than Hamilton, but I can't think of any instance where we've seen that translate into performance. Would be interested to hear/be reminded though.

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Last edited by Balibari on Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:02 pm 
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F1yer wrote:
What a pisstake.
What has the genius done over the last 5 years?

Real genius is one who wins WDCs. Both Alonso and Hamilton have failed to win that in ages and doesnt look likely that either of them will in the near future

I am sick of this Aonso - Hamilton worship


Still blaming Alonso and Hamilton for not winning the championships ?, I would agree with you if theyscrewed up their chances with an equal car. sometimes you get two cars from the same team but different performance affected by set-up ffs

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:05 pm 
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F1yer wrote:
What a pisstake.
What has the genius done over the last 5 years?

Real genius is one who wins WDCs. Both Alonso and Hamilton have failed to win that in ages and doesnt look likely that either of them will in the near future

I am sick of this Aonso - Hamilton worship

So for you a real genius would win no matter what equipment he has? Senna spent three years at Lotus and one at Toleman and didn't win a bean. Was he overrated? What about Schumacher? It took him 5 years at Ferrari to win a title. Was he poor, too?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:08 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
F1yer wrote:
What a pisstake.
What has the genius done over the last 5 years?

Real genius is one who wins WDCs. Both Alonso and Hamilton have failed to win that in ages and doesnt look likely that either of them will in the near future

I am sick of this Aonso - Hamilton worship

So for you a real genius would win no matter what equipment he has? Senna spent three years at Lotus and one at Toleman and didn't win a bean. Was he overrated? What about Schumacher? It took him 5 years at Ferrari to win a title. Was he poor, too?

I think it is quite clear that some folk simply cannot see talent unless it is in a fast car at the top. Such types are obviously not real f1 fans imho.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:08 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
F1yer wrote:
What a pisstake.
What has the genius done over the last 5 years?

Real genius is one who wins WDCs. Both Alonso and Hamilton have failed to win that in ages and doesnt look likely that either of them will in the near future

I am sick of this Aonso - Hamilton worship

So for you a real genius would win no matter what equipment he has? Senna spent three years at Lotus and one at Toleman and didn't win a bean. Was he overrated? What about Schumacher? It took him 5 years at Ferrari to win a title. Was he poor, too?


+1 :thumbup: :thumbup:

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:10 pm 
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F1yer wrote:
What a pisstake.
What has the genius done over the last 5 years?

Consistently won races in cars that look horrible.
Consistently scored solid points for a team that looks amateurish.
Garnered near unprecedented praise from many of the world's most respected F1 figures.
Received more accolades (from those who know best) than the guy who kept winning titles.
Scored more points than anyone except that guy.
Effortlessly maintained his reputation as the best driver of his era (as far as most 'experts' are concerned) in spite of total domination of the sport by someone else.

This reminds me of the guy who said G Villeneuve and Moss clearly weren't as good as J Villeneuve and Damon Hill because they never won the title.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:14 pm 
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I won't say Jackie is wrong but I think Lewis is Every bit as Genius as Alonso, only in different ways. Alonso is such that he feels what the car wants to do and is able to adapt as well as make changes to improve and maximize the car's ability in accordance to the tires. Lewis' genius is different in that he is naturally a quicker thinker behind the wheel and can find the full potential of a car and then communicate to his team where it needs improvement and come out and immediately realize if the changes were positive or negative, and if positive, he is able extract that additional speed within a handful of laps.

Vettel's genius lies in his testicular fortitude in how he will force himself to go against conventional thought and literal feel to plant his foot to get the cars of the previous 4 years plant their rear ends better. I do however think both Lewis and Alonso would have learned to do the same and feel that Alonso would have matched Vettel in those cars and Lewis would have bested them both. I never thought I'd ever say Lewis is one of the absolute greatest drivers and in consideration for the absolute fastest of all time. Thew guy is a sensation to watch and every bit the phenom Ron Dennis said he was all those years ago.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:16 pm 
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dogboy wrote:
Quote:
I don't agree with his views on Rosberg at all, putting him on a level with Vettel.

I put him higher than Vettel...Rosberg had teamates like Hamilton,Schumi...drivers from other "level"...Vettel never had a "top teamate" and now Ricciardo is beating him constantly...

Yep one thing we know for definite about Vettel is that he is better than Webber, it feels a bit like what is happening this season at Red Bull is not really happening

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:22 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Lotus38 wrote:
Hamilton has been partnered with Rosberg 2 years, in his first year at Merc he beat Rosberg, and that was coming new into a team where Rosberg was already established. This year Hamilton would be way ahead had it not been for the circumstances we all know, most of them no fault of Hamilton. In my book Rosberg is nowhere near Hamilton or Vettel.


Well said, Hamilton is making mincemeat out of Rosberg, trouncing him in the ... uh, wait a second, Rosberg is presently leading in the points. What's wrong with this picture?

No doubt being quick is a job requirement for any Formula One driver. But being the quickest does not automatically equate into being the best driver. There are other requirements that are important too, and Rosberg has the upper hand in most of those, consistency, racecraft, and being smarter in the head game department.

That is why Stewart makes a clear distinction between being the "best" driver and the "quickest". And he's right, Alonso is a lion among the pigeons.

Yep Hamilton's not smart enough to stop his brake disc exploding or from stopping his car from setting ablaze

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:23 pm 
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F1yer wrote:
What a pisstake.
What has the genius done over the last 5 years?

Real genius is one who wins WDCs. Both Alonso and Hamilton have failed to win that in ages and doesnt look likely that either of them will in the near future

I am sick of this Aonso - Hamilton worship

Some may consider the Red Bull genious to be Adrian Newey?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:38 pm 
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I think Jackie has hit the nail on the head. Hamilton drives very quick period. When he has to make instinct decisions on braking, corners etc there is no one faster. The second he has time to think about a a decision is where he often comes unstuck - ie when to pit, whether he should do another qualifying lap.

This is something you sometimes see with goalkeepers in football - there are some amazingly quick keepers out there who will save nearly everything thrown at them - they make the save on just an instinctive reaction. However give them a cross that lingers in the air and they have to think and struggle to make the right choice.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:47 pm 
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Arai_or_Nothing wrote:
I won't say Jackie is wrong but I think Lewis is Every bit as Genius as Alonso, only in different ways. Alonso is such that he feels what the car wants to do and is able to adapt as well as make changes to improve and maximize the car's ability in accordance to the tires. Lewis' genius is different in that he is naturally a quicker thinker behind the wheel and can find the full potential of a car and then communicate to his team where it needs improvement and come out and immediately realize if the changes were positive or negative, and if positive, he is able extract that additional speed within a handful of laps.

Vettel's genius lies in his testicular fortitude in how he will force himself to go against conventional thought and literal feel to plant his foot to get the cars of the previous 4 years plant their rear ends better. I do however think both Lewis and Alonso would have learned to do the same and feel that Alonso would have matched Vettel in those cars and Lewis would have bested them both. I never thought I'd ever say Lewis is one of the absolute greatest drivers and in consideration for the absolute fastest of all time. Thew guy is a sensation to watch and every bit the phenom Ron Dennis said he was all those years ago.

What you suggest as the reason for Vettel's domination during the blown floor era is spot on. For me it's too early to think he's a one trick pony though (not that you say he is). Adapting to regs is a crucial skill but, nevertheless, some regs will suit a driver's strengths or highlight their weaknesses more than others. I can't help but think Hamilton is totally unsuited to this Pirelli era, and that he'd show a greater edge over Rosberg in a more 'average' regs (but then, what is average?).

For me the main differences between Alonso and Hamilton, who I think are clearly the best of the current lot, are determination and self confidence. Alonso just never gives up. His mental strength is, in this narrow field at least, remarkable. Hamilton too often lets things get to him and doesn't seem good at judging when to overide poor decisions made by others, allow others to override his own poor decisions.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:50 pm 
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Agree mostly with Jackie Stewart, he knows what he's talking about (for the youngest forumers, this is the guy who held the record for most GP wins of all times.)

He's not demeaning Lewis at all; what he's saying is that Alonso has an extra amount of skill, that he's able to surprise you by taking advantage of circumstances, et cetera, making no mistakes, to achieve a podium result that appeared unlikely at the beginning of the race.

This is something that many past F1 legends were able to do as well - Prost, Senna, for example.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:55 pm 
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angrypirate wrote:
I think Jackie has hit the nail on the head. Hamilton drives very quick period. When he has to make instinct decisions on braking, corners etc there is no one faster. The second he has time to think about a a decision is where he often comes unstuck - ie when to pit, whether he should do another qualifying lap.

This is something you sometimes see with goalkeepers in football - there are some amazingly quick keepers out there who will save nearly everything thrown at them - they make the save on just an instinctive reaction. However give them a cross that lingers in the air and they have to think and struggle to make the right choice.


Wouldn't the football analogy work better for strikers. Theo and Welbeck keen examples. Instinct finishes they are excellent. Give them time to look in to the keepers eyes and they are Bambi on ice.

I think the majority of peoples top 3 would read

Alonso
Hamilton
Vettel

Over one lap I think they are both quicker than Alonso. Race craft he is second to none. I believe in the outright best car Hamilton and Vettel would beat him. In the 3rd-9th fastest cars I would fancy Alonso Hamilton Vettel in that order.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:56 pm 
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angrypirate wrote:
I think Jackie has hit the nail on the head. Hamilton drives very quick period. When he has to make instinct decisions on braking, corners etc there is no one faster. The second he has time to think about a a decision is where he often comes unstuck - ie when to pit, whether he should do another qualifying lap.

This is something you sometimes see with goalkeepers in football - there are some amazingly quick keepers out there who will save nearly everything thrown at them - they make the save on just an instinctive reaction. However give them a cross that lingers in the air and they have to think and struggle to make the right choice.

:thumbup:

I always imagine Alonso facing a difficult decision in the race (say when to stop in changing conditions) by instinctively stripping away every element that doesn't impact on his performance, and then applying superb judgement to the question in hand, all in the blink of an eye. But I imagine Hamilton too often leaving it to the team, or perhaps getting caught up in what his teammate's doing, thinking he'll be quick enough to ride out a short spell on the wrong tyres, or just making the wrong judgement call etc. etc.

We're talking tiny margins, relatively speaking. I'm not saying Hamilton is bad at this sort of thing, just that Alonso is better.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:11 pm 
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:lol:

As soon as I saw the title of this thread, I started laughing... knowing how much I knew some of Alonso's detractors/Lewis & Seb fans were going to have their noses out of joint!


Personally, I think that the quotes in the OP are pretty much spot on.
:thumbup:

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:13 pm 
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pubpokerplayer wrote:
angrypirate wrote:
I think Jackie has hit the nail on the head. Hamilton drives very quick period. When he has to make instinct decisions on braking, corners etc there is no one faster. The second he has time to think about a a decision is where he often comes unstuck - ie when to pit, whether he should do another qualifying lap.

This is something you sometimes see with goalkeepers in football - there are some amazingly quick keepers out there who will save nearly everything thrown at them - they make the save on just an instinctive reaction. However give them a cross that lingers in the air and they have to think and struggle to make the right choice.


Wouldn't the football analogy work better for strikers. Theo and Welbeck keen examples. Instinct finishes they are excellent. Give them time to look in to the keepers eyes and they are Bambi on ice.

I think the majority of peoples top 3 would read

Alonso
Hamilton
Vettel

Over one lap I think they are both quicker than Alonso. Race craft he is second to none. I believe in the outright best car Hamilton and Vettel would beat him. In the 3rd-9th fastest cars I would fancy Alonso Hamilton Vettel in that order.

I would say over the course of a full season he would score more points. Maybe not win the most races, but come out on top. Even in the best car.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:25 pm 
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pubpokerplayer wrote:
angrypirate wrote:
I think Jackie has hit the nail on the head. Hamilton drives very quick period. When he has to make instinct decisions on braking, corners etc there is no one faster. The second he has time to think about a a decision is where he often comes unstuck - ie when to pit, whether he should do another qualifying lap.

This is something you sometimes see with goalkeepers in football - there are some amazingly quick keepers out there who will save nearly everything thrown at them - they make the save on just an instinctive reaction. However give them a cross that lingers in the air and they have to think and struggle to make the right choice.


Wouldn't the football analogy work better for strikers. Theo and Welbeck keen examples. Instinct finishes they are excellent. Give them time to look in to the keepers eyes and they are Bambi on ice.

I think the majority of peoples top 3 would read

Alonso
Hamilton
Vettel

Over one lap I think they are both quicker than Alonso. Race craft he is second to none. I believe in the outright best car Hamilton and Vettel would beat him. In the 3rd-9th fastest cars I would fancy Alonso Hamilton Vettel in that order.

I would disagree on a couple of points.

Firstly, there seems to have been a myth that's grown up around Alonso that he is not particularly quick. Yet he constantly out-qualifies Kimi, once himself known as the fastest man in F1, and during the race he invariably outpaces him. He did the same with Massa, who many say has a good turn of speed but lacks racecraft, and indeed with most of his team mates. He outqualified Lewis just in under half the races in 2007 (8). He's by no means slow: I don't where this undeserved reputation comes from.

Vettel's reputation for one-lap pace was largely gained while partnering Webber. This year he's not exactly looked slow but he no longer looks quite so invincible in that area. I don't see anything to suggest he's faster than Alonso, nor to support the notion that he would have his measure in the outright best car.

Secondly, while I agree with Alonso and Lewis I would question the assertion that Vettel is in most people's top three. He's being fairly beaten by Ricciardo so far this year, so at the very least there's a case to be made that Ricciardo is better than him. I think of the three mentioned he would be the whipping boy of the group: he may occasionally get a victory in, but this would most likely be when the other two have suffered a misfortune. I think at the moment there's a top two.

In the outright best car I don't see Vettel performing any better than either Kimi, or Button, or Rosberg. In other words, he'd be a very strong driver but not necessarily the best. In a midfield car he'd do better than Rosberg but IMO would be on a par with Button and Kimi.

The only one I see being able to challenge Alonso in a less than perfect car would be Lewis. Both he and Alonso are very astute overtakers, both are phenomenally fast and both seem to be able to overcome any deficiencies in a car. But even then I would put Alonso ahead of Lewis. He seems to have a very strong tactical mind and a way of always managing to benefit from any situation, and as others have said Lewis can occasionally get dragged down mentally. I would agree with the ultimate assessment that Alonso appears to be a genius in the car, like no other today.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:26 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Lotus38 wrote:
Hamilton has been partnered with Rosberg 2 years, in his first year at Merc he beat Rosberg, and that was coming new into a team where Rosberg was already established. This year Hamilton would be way ahead had it not been for the circumstances we all know, most of them no fault of Hamilton. In my book Rosberg is nowhere near Hamilton or Vettel.


Well said, Hamilton is making mincemeat out of Rosberg, trouncing him in the ... uh, wait a second, Rosberg is presently leading in the points. What's wrong with this picture?

No doubt being quick is a job requirement for any Formula One driver. But being the quickest does not automatically equate into being the best driver. There are other requirements that are important too, and Rosberg has the upper hand in most of those, consistency, racecraft, and being smarter in the head game department.

That is why Stewart makes a clear distinction between being the "best" driver and the "quickest". And he's right, Alonso is a lion among the pigeons.

Yep Hamilton's not smart enough to stop his brake disc exploding or from stopping his car from setting ablaze

My thoughts exactly, but let's not forget the PU failure in the season opener where Rosberg couldn't touch Hamilton. In fact I believe Rosberg qualified 3rd while Ricciardo qualified 2nd, and all with a very iffy Renault PU over the much more potent Mercedes PU.

Nico has been very fortunate and Lewis has down one of the best jobs in recent F1 history to be running such a CLOSE 2nd to Rosberg.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:27 pm 
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Arai_or_Nothing wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Lotus38 wrote:
Hamilton has been partnered with Rosberg 2 years, in his first year at Merc he beat Rosberg, and that was coming new into a team where Rosberg was already established. This year Hamilton would be way ahead had it not been for the circumstances we all know, most of them no fault of Hamilton. In my book Rosberg is nowhere near Hamilton or Vettel.


Well said, Hamilton is making mincemeat out of Rosberg, trouncing him in the ... uh, wait a second, Rosberg is presently leading in the points. What's wrong with this picture?

No doubt being quick is a job requirement for any Formula One driver. But being the quickest does not automatically equate into being the best driver. There are other requirements that are important too, and Rosberg has the upper hand in most of those, consistency, racecraft, and being smarter in the head game department.

That is why Stewart makes a clear distinction between being the "best" driver and the "quickest". And he's right, Alonso is a lion among the pigeons.

Yep Hamilton's not smart enough to stop his brake disc exploding or from stopping his car from setting ablaze

My thoughts exactly, but let's not forget the PU failure in the season opener where Rosberg couldn't touch Hamilton. In fact I believe Rosberg qualified 3rd while Ricciardo qualified 2nd, and all with a very iffy Renault PU over the much more potent Mercedes PU.

Nico has been very fortunate and Lewis has down one of the best jobs in recent F1 history to be running such a CLOSE 2nd to Rosberg.

To be fair, it was wet qualifying, which negated a lot of the PU advantage Mercedes had


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:35 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pubpokerplayer wrote:
angrypirate wrote:
I think Jackie has hit the nail on the head. Hamilton drives very quick period. When he has to make instinct decisions on braking, corners etc there is no one faster. The second he has time to think about a a decision is where he often comes unstuck - ie when to pit, whether he should do another qualifying lap.

This is something you sometimes see with goalkeepers in football - there are some amazingly quick keepers out there who will save nearly everything thrown at them - they make the save on just an instinctive reaction. However give them a cross that lingers in the air and they have to think and struggle to make the right choice.


Wouldn't the football analogy work better for strikers. Theo and Welbeck keen examples. Instinct finishes they are excellent. Give them time to look in to the keepers eyes and they are Bambi on ice.

I think the majority of peoples top 3 would read

Alonso
Hamilton
Vettel

Over one lap I think they are both quicker than Alonso. Race craft he is second to none. I believe in the outright best car Hamilton and Vettel would beat him. In the 3rd-9th fastest cars I would fancy Alonso Hamilton Vettel in that order.

I would disagree on a couple of points.

Firstly, there seems to have been a myth that's grown up around Alonso that he is not particularly quick. Yet he constantly out-qualifies Kimi, once himself known as the fastest man in F1, and during the race he invariably outpaces him. He did the same with Massa, who many say has a good turn of speed but lacks racecraft, and indeed with most of his team mates. He outqualified Lewis just in under half the races in 2007 (8). He's by no means slow: I don't where this undeserved reputation comes from.

Vettel's reputation for one-lap pace was largely gained while partnering Webber. This year he's not exactly looked slow but he no longer looks quite so invincible in that area. I don't see anything to suggest he's faster than Alonso, nor to support the notion that he would have his measure in the outright best car.

Secondly, while I agree with Alonso and Lewis I would question the assertion that Vettel is in most people's top three. He's being fairly beaten by Ricciardo so far this year, so at the very least there's a case to be made that Ricciardo is better than him. I think of the three mentioned he would be the whipping boy of the group: he may occasionally get a victory in, but this would most likely be when the other two have suffered a misfortune. I think at the moment there's a top two.

In the outright best car I don't see Vettel performing any better than either Kimi, or Button, or Rosberg. In other words, he'd be a very strong driver but not necessarily the best. In a midfield car he'd do better than Rosberg but IMO would be on a par with Button and Kimi.

The only one I see being able to challenge Alonso in a less than perfect car would be Lewis. Both he and Alonso are very astute overtakers, both are phenomenally fast and both seem to be able to overcome any deficiencies in a car. But even then I would put Alonso ahead of Lewis. He seems to have a very strong tactical mind and a way of always managing to benefit from any situation, and as others have said Lewis can occasionally get dragged down mentally. I would agree with the ultimate assessment that Alonso appears to be a genius in the car, like no other today.


This is a great post. I'm in the office but will make time to reply in proper detail later.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:36 pm 
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Looks like Alonso is slow in qualy...but the fact is that Alonso finished ahead of his teamates in terms of "who start ahead of who"...he even beat Hamilton is this aspect...

So im a little tire of "Alonso is slow in one lap"...because no one beat him in one lap (and he has 11 teamates in f1)


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:42 pm 
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Blake wrote:
:lol:

As soon as I saw the title of this thread, I started laughing... knowing how much I knew some of Alonso's detractors/Lewis & Seb fans were going to have their noses out of joint!


Personally, I think that the quotes in the OP are pretty much spot on.
:thumbup:

Which Lewis fans are at odds with the thread title?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:52 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pubpokerplayer wrote:
angrypirate wrote:
I think Jackie has hit the nail on the head. Hamilton drives very quick period. When he has to make instinct decisions on braking, corners etc there is no one faster. The second he has time to think about a a decision is where he often comes unstuck - ie when to pit, whether he should do another qualifying lap.

This is something you sometimes see with goalkeepers in football - there are some amazingly quick keepers out there who will save nearly everything thrown at them - they make the save on just an instinctive reaction. However give them a cross that lingers in the air and they have to think and struggle to make the right choice.


Wouldn't the football analogy work better for strikers. Theo and Welbeck keen examples. Instinct finishes they are excellent. Give them time to look in to the keepers eyes and they are Bambi on ice.

I think the majority of peoples top 3 would read

Alonso
Hamilton
Vettel

Over one lap I think they are both quicker than Alonso. Race craft he is second to none. I believe in the outright best car Hamilton and Vettel would beat him. In the 3rd-9th fastest cars I would fancy Alonso Hamilton Vettel in that order.

I would disagree on a couple of points.

Firstly, there seems to have been a myth that's grown up around Alonso that he is not particularly quick. Yet he constantly out-qualifies Kimi, once himself known as the fastest man in F1, and during the race he invariably outpaces him. He did the same with Massa, who many say has a good turn of speed but lacks racecraft, and indeed with most of his team mates. He outqualified Lewis just in under half the races in 2007 (8). He's by no means slow: I don't where this undeserved reputation comes from.

Vettel's reputation for one-lap pace was largely gained while partnering Webber. This year he's not exactly looked slow but he no longer looks quite so invincible in that area. I don't see anything to suggest he's faster than Alonso, nor to support the notion that he would have his measure in the outright best car.

Secondly, while I agree with Alonso and Lewis I would question the assertion that Vettel is in most people's top three. He's being fairly beaten by Ricciardo so far this year, so at the very least there's a case to be made that Ricciardo is better than him. I think of the three mentioned he would be the whipping boy of the group: he may occasionally get a victory in, but this would most likely be when the other two have suffered a misfortune. I think at the moment there's a top two.

In the outright best car I don't see Vettel performing any better than either Kimi, or Button, or Rosberg. In other words, he'd be a very strong driver but not necessarily the best. In a midfield car he'd do better than Rosberg but IMO would be on a par with Button and Kimi.

The only one I see being able to challenge Alonso in a less than perfect car would be Lewis. Both he and Alonso are very astute overtakers, both are phenomenally fast and both seem to be able to overcome any deficiencies in a car. But even then I would put Alonso ahead of Lewis. He seems to have a very strong tactical mind and a way of always managing to benefit from any situation, and as others have said Lewis can occasionally get dragged down mentally. I would agree with the ultimate assessment that Alonso appears to be a genius in the car, like no other today.

I'm fascinated by how we land on issues such as your first point highlights. I think it comes down to our human need to make sense of everything. Once we accept Alonso is 'the most complete' (urgh... that expression) we have to justify him not winning all the time and/or beating all his teammates all the time. Basically we have to make sense of a sport with more mercurial, contradictory, complicated and plain lucky elements than we are comfortable with. So we start ascribing attributes to everyone in order to explain their performance and achievements. G Villeneuve was the fastest... but he made lots of mistakes. Then Senna was the fastest... but he was too emotional and hot headed. For a long time Kimi was the fastest... but he didn't try hard enough. Now Hamilton is the fastest... but he's inconsistent. These caveats reflect the human tendency to make snap judgements and stick to them more than they represent the qualities of the driver in question. They pass into law because they help us all make sense of things. So, Alonso is the most complete, but there needs to be a 'but', and the easiest 'but', once you've said he's great at everything else, is to say he isn't that fast. It's all rubbish. Hamilton has been a model of consistency for most of the last few years. G Villeneuve had fewer accidents than the average after his first two (learning) seasons. etc. etc.

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Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
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Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:54 pm 
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dogboy wrote:
Looks like Alonso is slow in qualy...but the fact is that Alonso finished ahead of his teamates in terms of "who start ahead of who"...he even beat Hamilton is this aspect...

So im a little tire of "Alonso is slow in one lap"...because no one beat him in one lap (and he has 11 teamates in f1)

I think in race fuelled qualifying that can confuse matters sometimes, Monaco being a case in point

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 4:11 pm 
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Quote:
Hamilton has been a model of consistency for most of the last few years

Hahahhahahahhahahhahaaahahhahahahahgaag

The most complete means that probably you are not the fastest but you are perfect on every other aspect and that make you destroy your teamates...no matter how fast you are if you make mistakes,if you dont know how to overtake,how to start a race...if you know how to do it and extract every inch of your equipment them you are the best...


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