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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:12 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Hamilton’s 2 terrible races was a response regarding this season’s performance.

Anyway, let’s just compare 2017 and 2018.

- Hamilton was clearly slower than Bottas at Russia 2017, Monaco 2017, China 2018, and Canada 2018.
- Verstappen was slower than Ricciardo at Abu Dhabi 2017. I can’t think of any other race. Maybe Baku 2018. That’s it.
- In other words, Hamilton was outpaced by Bottas slightly more often than Verstappen was outpaced by Ricciardo.

Now, Ricciardo was clearly quicker than Vettel on race pace, while Bottas wasn’t even any quicker than Massa. Likewise, Vettel is definitely a better driver than Massa.

Now are you beginning to see the picture?

Now you've gone back to 2017 and 2018 of which I can't remember that clearly but I do remember Hamilton had an engine issue in Canada in 2018 so I would question your diligence somewhat.

Of course we are comparing with Verstappen, we are thinking that in 2017 Verstappen was actually better than Hamilton?

I don’t believe that Verstappen was better than Hamilton in 2017, but I certainly don’t consider it an outrageous opinion.

There’s a poster called sennafan24 who has his own forum (and is also on AS). He’s one of the most passionate Hamilton fans online. He rated Max as the driver of the season in 2017.

How can you have that many crashes and be considered the driver of the season?

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 4:49 am 
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pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Hamilton’s 2 terrible races was a response regarding this season’s performance.

Anyway, let’s just compare 2017 and 2018.

- Hamilton was clearly slower than Bottas at Russia 2017, Monaco 2017, China 2018, and Canada 2018.
- Verstappen was slower than Ricciardo at Abu Dhabi 2017. I can’t think of any other race. Maybe Baku 2018. That’s it.
- In other words, Hamilton was outpaced by Bottas slightly more often than Verstappen was outpaced by Ricciardo.

Now, Ricciardo was clearly quicker than Vettel on race pace, while Bottas wasn’t even any quicker than Massa. Likewise, Vettel is definitely a better driver than Massa.

Now are you beginning to see the picture?

Now you've gone back to 2017 and 2018 of which I can't remember that clearly but I do remember Hamilton had an engine issue in Canada in 2018 so I would question your diligence somewhat.

Of course we are comparing with Verstappen, we are thinking that in 2017 Verstappen was actually better than Hamilton?

I don’t believe that Verstappen was better than Hamilton in 2017, but I certainly don’t consider it an outrageous opinion.

There’s a poster called sennafan24 who has his own forum (and is also on AS). He’s one of the most passionate Hamilton fans online. He rated Max as the driver of the season in 2017.

How can you have that many crashes and be considered the driver of the season?


He didn't have many that were his fault in 2017 did he?


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:59 am 
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pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Hamilton’s 2 terrible races was a response regarding this season’s performance.

Anyway, let’s just compare 2017 and 2018.

- Hamilton was clearly slower than Bottas at Russia 2017, Monaco 2017, China 2018, and Canada 2018.
- Verstappen was slower than Ricciardo at Abu Dhabi 2017. I can’t think of any other race. Maybe Baku 2018. That’s it.
- In other words, Hamilton was outpaced by Bottas slightly more often than Verstappen was outpaced by Ricciardo.

Now, Ricciardo was clearly quicker than Vettel on race pace, while Bottas wasn’t even any quicker than Massa. Likewise, Vettel is definitely a better driver than Massa.

Now are you beginning to see the picture?

Now you've gone back to 2017 and 2018 of which I can't remember that clearly but I do remember Hamilton had an engine issue in Canada in 2018 so I would question your diligence somewhat.

Of course we are comparing with Verstappen, we are thinking that in 2017 Verstappen was actually better than Hamilton?

I don’t believe that Verstappen was better than Hamilton in 2017, but I certainly don’t consider it an outrageous opinion.

There’s a poster called sennafan24 who has his own forum (and is also on AS). He’s one of the most passionate Hamilton fans online. He rated Max as the driver of the season in 2017.

How can you have that many crashes and be considered the driver of the season?

In 2012, Hamilton was involved in accidents in Valencia, Spa and Interlagos. He was still considered as a serious driver of the season contender. You know why? Because it wasn’t his fault.

I hold a very similar opinion to Verstappen’s 2017, who dominated Ricciardo on pure pace and made very few mistakes.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:21 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Hamilton’s 2 terrible races was a response regarding this season’s performance.

Anyway, let’s just compare 2017 and 2018.

- Hamilton was clearly slower than Bottas at Russia 2017, Monaco 2017, China 2018, and Canada 2018.
- Verstappen was slower than Ricciardo at Abu Dhabi 2017. I can’t think of any other race. Maybe Baku 2018. That’s it.
- In other words, Hamilton was outpaced by Bottas slightly more often than Verstappen was outpaced by Ricciardo.

Now, Ricciardo was clearly quicker than Vettel on race pace, while Bottas wasn’t even any quicker than Massa. Likewise, Vettel is definitely a better driver than Massa.

Now are you beginning to see the picture?

Now you've gone back to 2017 and 2018 of which I can't remember that clearly but I do remember Hamilton had an engine issue in Canada in 2018 so I would question your diligence somewhat.

Of course we are comparing with Verstappen, we are thinking that in 2017 Verstappen was actually better than Hamilton?

I don’t believe that Verstappen was better than Hamilton in 2017, but I certainly don’t consider it an outrageous opinion.

There’s a poster called sennafan24 who has his own forum (and is also on AS). He’s one of the most passionate Hamilton fans online. He rated Max as the driver of the season in 2017.

How can you have that many crashes and be considered the driver of the season?


He didn't have many that were his fault in 2017 did he?

In your opinion, we went through that at the time.

He crashed out his teammate in Hungary for which he got penalised and scored less points than his teammate despite his teammate having more mechanical retirements, there is a reason why only now this year Verstappen is being talked about in terms of being the best driver in F1.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:24 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Hamilton’s 2 terrible races was a response regarding this season’s performance.

Anyway, let’s just compare 2017 and 2018.

- Hamilton was clearly slower than Bottas at Russia 2017, Monaco 2017, China 2018, and Canada 2018.
- Verstappen was slower than Ricciardo at Abu Dhabi 2017. I can’t think of any other race. Maybe Baku 2018. That’s it.
- In other words, Hamilton was outpaced by Bottas slightly more often than Verstappen was outpaced by Ricciardo.

Now, Ricciardo was clearly quicker than Vettel on race pace, while Bottas wasn’t even any quicker than Massa. Likewise, Vettel is definitely a better driver than Massa.

Now are you beginning to see the picture?

Now you've gone back to 2017 and 2018 of which I can't remember that clearly but I do remember Hamilton had an engine issue in Canada in 2018 so I would question your diligence somewhat.

Of course we are comparing with Verstappen, we are thinking that in 2017 Verstappen was actually better than Hamilton?

I don’t believe that Verstappen was better than Hamilton in 2017, but I certainly don’t consider it an outrageous opinion.

There’s a poster called sennafan24 who has his own forum (and is also on AS). He’s one of the most passionate Hamilton fans online. He rated Max as the driver of the season in 2017.

How can you have that many crashes and be considered the driver of the season?

In 2012, Hamilton was involved in accidents in Valencia, Spa and Interlagos. He was still considered as a serious driver of the season contender. You know why? Because it wasn’t his fault.

I hold a very similar opinion to Verstappen’s 2017, who dominated Ricciardo on pure pace and made very few mistakes.

All 3 drivers got penalised for crashing out Hamilton whilst Verstappen got penalised for crashing out his own teammate, none of Verstappen's other crashes involved the other driver being penalised.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:35 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Now you've gone back to 2017 and 2018 of which I can't remember that clearly but I do remember Hamilton had an engine issue in Canada in 2018 so I would question your diligence somewhat.

Of course we are comparing with Verstappen, we are thinking that in 2017 Verstappen was actually better than Hamilton?

I don’t believe that Verstappen was better than Hamilton in 2017, but I certainly don’t consider it an outrageous opinion.

There’s a poster called sennafan24 who has his own forum (and is also on AS). He’s one of the most passionate Hamilton fans online. He rated Max as the driver of the season in 2017.

How can you have that many crashes and be considered the driver of the season?


He didn't have many that were his fault in 2017 did he?

In your opinion, we went through that at the time.

He crashed out his teammate in Hungary for which he got penalised and scored less points than his teammate despite his teammate having more mechanical retirements, there is a reason why only now this year Verstappen is being talked about in terms of being the best driver in F1.


I don't think he was the best driver in 2017 but he certainly didn't cause a lot of crashes as you were trying to suggest.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:54 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
I don’t believe that Verstappen was better than Hamilton in 2017, but I certainly don’t consider it an outrageous opinion.

There’s a poster called sennafan24 who has his own forum (and is also on AS). He’s one of the most passionate Hamilton fans online. He rated Max as the driver of the season in 2017.

How can you have that many crashes and be considered the driver of the season?


He didn't have many that were his fault in 2017 did he?

In your opinion, we went through that at the time.

He crashed out his teammate in Hungary for which he got penalised and scored less points than his teammate despite his teammate having more mechanical retirements, there is a reason why only now this year Verstappen is being talked about in terms of being the best driver in F1.


I don't think he was the best driver in 2017 but he certainly didn't cause a lot of crashes as you were trying to suggest.

Well we are supposedly making comparison with Hamilton who KingVoid opinionated as being inferior to Verstappen as early as 2017, with KingVoid Hamilton damaging his front wing in the race in Austria this year is proof of Hamilton being inferior compared to the mistake free Verstappen.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:52 pm 
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poker, a couple of things:

1. I said in 2017 that Verstappen was the fastest driver on the grid, not the outright best.

2. Hungary was the only serious mistake Verstappen made all season in 2017, which is the same number of serious mistakes Hamilton made that year (Brazil).

3. This year, Verstappen has been slightly better than Hamilton overall, although the gap has decreased because of Spa.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:28 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
poker, a couple of things:

1. I said in 2017 that Verstappen was the fastest driver on the grid, not the outright best.

2. Hungary was the only serious mistake Verstappen made all season in 2017, which is the same number of serious mistakes Hamilton made that year (Brazil).

3. This year, Verstappen has been slightly better than Hamilton overall, although the gap has decreased because of Spa.


So you'd still put Verstappen ahead even tho he crashed out due to an error of his own judgement? Interesting.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:34 am 
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FormulaFun wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
poker, a couple of things:

1. I said in 2017 that Verstappen was the fastest driver on the grid, not the outright best.

2. Hungary was the only serious mistake Verstappen made all season in 2017, which is the same number of serious mistakes Hamilton made that year (Brazil).

3. This year, Verstappen has been slightly better than Hamilton overall, although the gap has decreased because of Spa.


So you'd still put Verstappen ahead even tho he crashed out due to an error of his own judgement? Interesting.


Did you still have Hamilton ahead after Hockenheim ?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:24 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
poker, a couple of things:

1. I said in 2017 that Verstappen was the fastest driver on the grid, not the outright best.

2. Hungary was the only serious mistake Verstappen made all season in 2017, which is the same number of serious mistakes Hamilton made that year (Brazil).

3. This year, Verstappen has been slightly better than Hamilton overall, although the gap has decreased because of Spa.


So you'd still put Verstappen ahead even tho he crashed out due to an error of his own judgement? Interesting.


Did you still have Hamilton ahead after Hockenheim ?


Actually no I didn't. I said that Verstappen was slightly ahead in performance after Hockenheim. My post after Germany -

"I would now agree that after this race I'd say Verstappen has the slight edge (pre-germany it was Hamilton) in form"


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:44 am 
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FormulaFun wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
poker, a couple of things:

1. I said in 2017 that Verstappen was the fastest driver on the grid, not the outright best.

2. Hungary was the only serious mistake Verstappen made all season in 2017, which is the same number of serious mistakes Hamilton made that year (Brazil).

3. This year, Verstappen has been slightly better than Hamilton overall, although the gap has decreased because of Spa.


So you'd still put Verstappen ahead even tho he crashed out due to an error of his own judgement? Interesting.


Did you still have Hamilton ahead after Hockenheim ?


Actually no I didn't. I said that Verstappen was slightly ahead in performance after Hockenheim. My post after Germany -

"I would now agree that after this race I'd say Verstappen has the slight edge (pre-germany it was Hamilton) in form"


Fair enough.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:41 pm 
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Hamilton has made two serious mistakes this year. Austria and Germany. Verstappen has only made one.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:53 pm 
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I think Lewis Hamilton has done enough to be regarded as an all time great.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:09 pm 
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Hamilton is already an all time great.

Hamilton and Vettel are the current drivers in that category. I have to say this though, I think Kimi is an icon in this sport and that is an equally brilliant accomplishment.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:13 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Hamilton has made two serious mistakes this year. Austria and Germany. Verstappen has only made one.


I'd certainly categorize his mistake in Monaco as serious (picking up a penalty for his pitlane wheel-banging with Bottas.) It cost him a podium.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:14 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Hamilton has made two serious mistakes this year. Austria and Germany. Verstappen has only made one.

What serious mistake did he make in Austria?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:30 pm 
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Verstappen made a serious mistake in Germany, just sometimes you get away with them.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:31 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Hamilton has made two serious mistakes this year. Austria and Germany. Verstappen has only made one.

What serious mistake did he make in Austria?

Running over the kerb often enough he damaged his car?

I can't think of any other candidates.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:45 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
poker, a couple of things:

1. I said in 2017 that Verstappen was the fastest driver on the grid, not the outright best.

2. Hungary was the only serious mistake Verstappen made all season in 2017, which is the same number of serious mistakes Hamilton made that year (Brazil).

3. This year, Verstappen has been slightly better than Hamilton overall, although the gap has decreased because of Spa.

Fair enough but you put forward the notion that it wouldn't be an outrageous notion, in Brazil Hamilton still finished 4th despite crashing in qualifying, Verstappen also crashed trying to go around 2 cars into a tightening chicane in Spain, you want to label that as not a mistake, he was unlucky but I'm back to my risk/reward analogy.

In 2017 Hamilton won the WDC against a competitive Ferrari whilst Verstappen finished behind his teammate in the WDC and I believe that Ricciardo had more mechanical retirements, hardly a candidate for driver of the year?

You think that Verstappen has only made the one mistake at Spa but you forget the penalty at Monaco, that was a mistake hitting Bottas in the pit lane, Hamilton damaging his front wing by running wide over a kerb in Austria is hardly worse, and in Germany at least Hamilton managed to end up in the points, I would say that knock for knock this year I now see no difference.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:47 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Hamilton has made two serious mistakes this year. Austria and Germany. Verstappen has only made one.

Two Monaco.

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:48 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Hamilton has made two serious mistakes this year. Austria and Germany. Verstappen has only made one.

What serious mistake did he make in Austria?

Damaging his front wing running wide on the kerb.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:35 am 
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pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
poker, a couple of things:

1. I said in 2017 that Verstappen was the fastest driver on the grid, not the outright best.

2. Hungary was the only serious mistake Verstappen made all season in 2017, which is the same number of serious mistakes Hamilton made that year (Brazil).

3. This year, Verstappen has been slightly better than Hamilton overall, although the gap has decreased because of Spa.

In 2017 Hamilton won the WDC against a competitive Ferrari whilst Verstappen finished behind his teammate in the WDC and I believe that Ricciardo had more mechanical retirements, hardly a candidate for driver of the year?

This is such a dishonest way of representing Verstappen’s season and I’m actually quite disappointed in you since you are normally a fairly objective poster.

In 2012, Hamilton and Button both had two mechanical retirements (LH in Singapore and Abu Dhabi, JB in Bahrain and Monza). Button finished the season only two points behind Hamilton in the end. Does this mean that Hamilton and Button drove at a similar level in 2012?

Again, you really need to analyze 2017 further if you want to understand why I rate Max so highly that season. He was utterly dominant over Ricciardo whenever both cars were running.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:54 am 
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pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Hamilton has made two serious mistakes this year. Austria and Germany. Verstappen has only made one.

What serious mistake did he make in Austria?

Damaging his front wing running wide on the kerb.

So we're now drawing an equivalence between a mistake that forces you to change your nose and a mistake that takes you out of the race? We're also dumbing down the conversation for driver of the year to simply counting errors? I just can't take Kingvoid seriously on topics like this.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:58 am 
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Irrelevant sub thread removed by mod.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 1:51 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Hamilton has made two serious mistakes this year. Austria and Germany. Verstappen has only made one.

What serious mistake did he make in Austria?

Damaging his front wing running wide on the kerb.

So we're now drawing an equivalence between a mistake that forces you to change your nose and a mistake that takes you out of the race? We're also dumbing down the conversation for driver of the year to simply counting errors? I just can't take Kingvoid seriously on topics like this.

A mistake that forces you to change your nose is a very serious mistake.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:01 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Hamilton has made two serious mistakes this year. Austria and Germany. Verstappen has only made one.

What serious mistake did he make in Austria?

Damaging his front wing running wide on the kerb.

So we're now drawing an equivalence between a mistake that forces you to change your nose and a mistake that takes you out of the race? We're also dumbing down the conversation for driver of the year to simply counting errors? I just can't take Kingvoid seriously on topics like this.

A mistake that forces you to change your nose is a very serious mistake.

But a mistake that earns you a 5 second penalty and ultimately drops you from P2 to P4 isn't? At least according to you? In Austria, Hamilton started the race in P5 and finished there too. In Monaco, Max lost positions due to his actions in the pit lane. The big mistake Hamilton made in Germany is pretty much identical to a mistake Max made there. Both had spins at around the same part of the circuit (several drivers spun there that day). Max was fortunate to stay out of the wall. Hamilton wasn't.

Anyway, counting errors is just a race to the bottom. It's basically asking, how bad were you at your worst? I think driver of the year is more about how great you are than how bad your worst performances were. Unless you have a particularly error-prone season, I think your way of looking at things ignores the most important element; which is who has been the best.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:22 am 
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Hamilton’s mistake in Austria was more costly than you make it sound. He was on the same winning strategy as Verstappen and 7 seconds further up the road. He ended up 5th because of that mistake and threw away at least a podium even if you account for Mercedes’ issues there. Likewise, Lewis started lower down in Austria because he made a mistake in qualifying. His overall weekend in Austria was a write-off, not as bad as Germany but still bad.

Regarding Germany, that’s the name of the game. In 2018, both Vettel and Hamilton went off only once. Hamilton at turn 6, Vettel at turn 12. Does this mean that Lewis wasn’t actually better than Seb that race, but just luckier that his mistake occurred in a corner with tarmac and not gravel?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:38 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
Hamilton’s mistake in Austria was more costly than you make it sound. He was on the same winning strategy as Verstappen and 7 seconds further up the road. He ended up 5th because of that mistake and threw away at least a podium even if you account for Mercedes’ issues there. Likewise, Lewis started lower down in Austria because he made a mistake in qualifying. His overall weekend in Austria was a write-off, not as bad as Germany but still bad.

Regarding Germany, that’s the name of the game. In 2018, both Vettel and Hamilton went off only once. Hamilton at turn 6, Vettel at turn 12. Does this mean that Lewis wasn’t actually better than Seb that race, but just luckier that his mistake occurred in a corner with tarmac and not gravel?

Apples and oranges as usual. Hamilton and Verstappen (and several other drivers) all spun at the same spot in Germany; which suggests that it was not really driver error but just a spot on the track that caused aquaplaning. When that happens, you become a passenger. In Germany 2018 Vettel made an error at the one part of the circuit where you cannot afford to go off. There's a big difference between that and running a bit wide at turn 6 (the safest place on the track to run wide).

You want to make a mountain out of Hamilton's errors because you want to prop up Max. For me though, driver of the year isn't just about minimizing mistakes. Neither Hamilton nor Verstappen have made many mistakes this year so I don't think that's the determining factor. It's going to come down to who has the highest highs; not who has the lowest lows.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:50 am 
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:53 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Hamilton’s mistake in Austria was more costly than you make it sound. He was on the same winning strategy as Verstappen and 7 seconds further up the road. He ended up 5th because of that mistake and threw away at least a podium even if you account for Mercedes’ issues there. Likewise, Lewis started lower down in Austria because he made a mistake in qualifying. His overall weekend in Austria was a write-off, not as bad as Germany but still bad.

Regarding Germany, that’s the name of the game. In 2018, both Vettel and Hamilton went off only once. Hamilton at turn 6, Vettel at turn 12. Does this mean that Lewis wasn’t actually better than Seb that race, but just luckier that his mistake occurred in a corner with tarmac and not gravel?

Apples and oranges as usual. Hamilton and Verstappen (and several other drivers) all spun at the same spot in Germany; which suggests that it was not really driver error but just a spot on the track that caused aquaplaning. When that happens, you become a passenger. In Germany 2018 Vettel made an error at the one part of the circuit where you cannot afford to go off. There's a big difference between that and running a bit wide at turn 6 (the safest place on the track to run wide).

You want to make a mountain out of Hamilton's errors because you want to prop up Max. For me though, driver of the year isn't just about minimizing mistakes. Neither Hamilton nor Verstappen have made many mistakes this year so I don't think that's the determining factor. It's going to come down to who has the highest highs; not who has the lowest lows.


He's ignored this every time just as he ignores everyone else pointing out Monaco and just like he ignores the fact that Verstappen was dropped out in Q2 at Canada and spun in Germany, if it doesn't suit his agenda he ignores it so there's no point debating. He will not change his mind. Verstappen could DNF in every race for the rest of the season and he'd still give him driver of the season


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:16 am 
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FormulaFun wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Hamilton’s mistake in Austria was more costly than you make it sound. He was on the same winning strategy as Verstappen and 7 seconds further up the road. He ended up 5th because of that mistake and threw away at least a podium even if you account for Mercedes’ issues there. Likewise, Lewis started lower down in Austria because he made a mistake in qualifying. His overall weekend in Austria was a write-off, not as bad as Germany but still bad.

Regarding Germany, that’s the name of the game. In 2018, both Vettel and Hamilton went off only once. Hamilton at turn 6, Vettel at turn 12. Does this mean that Lewis wasn’t actually better than Seb that race, but just luckier that his mistake occurred in a corner with tarmac and not gravel?

Apples and oranges as usual. Hamilton and Verstappen (and several other drivers) all spun at the same spot in Germany; which suggests that it was not really driver error but just a spot on the track that caused aquaplaning. When that happens, you become a passenger. In Germany 2018 Vettel made an error at the one part of the circuit where you cannot afford to go off. There's a big difference between that and running a bit wide at turn 6 (the safest place on the track to run wide).

You want to make a mountain out of Hamilton's errors because you want to prop up Max. For me though, driver of the year isn't just about minimizing mistakes. Neither Hamilton nor Verstappen have made many mistakes this year so I don't think that's the determining factor. It's going to come down to who has the highest highs; not who has the lowest lows.


He's ignored this every time just as he ignores everyone else pointing out Monaco and just like he ignores the fact that Verstappen was dropped out in Q2 at Canada and spun in Germany, if it doesn't suit his agenda he ignores it so there's no point debating. He will not change his mind. Verstappen could DNF in every race for the rest of the season and he'd still give him driver of the season

In Monaco, the Red Bull pit crew released Verstappen right into the path of Bottas on the narrowest pitlane on the calendar. That’s a team mistake, not a driver mistake.

In Canada, Verstappen was extremely unlucky with the red flag in Q2, and P5 was the best Verstappen could achieve anyway as Merc and Ferrari were just plain better.

Verstappen won in Germany, so his spin was irrelevant. Also, it was idiotic for Red Bull to put him on mediums in those conditions.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:15 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Hamilton’s mistake in Austria was more costly than you make it sound. He was on the same winning strategy as Verstappen and 7 seconds further up the road. He ended up 5th because of that mistake and threw away at least a podium even if you account for Mercedes’ issues there. Likewise, Lewis started lower down in Austria because he made a mistake in qualifying. His overall weekend in Austria was a write-off, not as bad as Germany but still bad.

Regarding Germany, that’s the name of the game. In 2018, both Vettel and Hamilton went off only once. Hamilton at turn 6, Vettel at turn 12. Does this mean that Lewis wasn’t actually better than Seb that race, but just luckier that his mistake occurred in a corner with tarmac and not gravel?

Apples and oranges as usual. Hamilton and Verstappen (and several other drivers) all spun at the same spot in Germany; which suggests that it was not really driver error but just a spot on the track that caused aquaplaning. When that happens, you become a passenger. In Germany 2018 Vettel made an error at the one part of the circuit where you cannot afford to go off. There's a big difference between that and running a bit wide at turn 6 (the safest place on the track to run wide).

You want to make a mountain out of Hamilton's errors because you want to prop up Max. For me though, driver of the year isn't just about minimizing mistakes. Neither Hamilton nor Verstappen have made many mistakes this year so I don't think that's the determining factor. It's going to come down to who has the highest highs; not who has the lowest lows.


He's ignored this every time just as he ignores everyone else pointing out Monaco and just like he ignores the fact that Verstappen was dropped out in Q2 at Canada and spun in Germany, if it doesn't suit his agenda he ignores it so there's no point debating. He will not change his mind. Verstappen could DNF in every race for the rest of the season and he'd still give him driver of the season

In Monaco, the Red Bull pit crew released Verstappen right into the path of Bottas on the narrowest pitlane on the calendar. That’s a team mistake, not a driver mistake.

In Canada, Verstappen was extremely unlucky with the red flag in Q2, and P5 was the best Verstappen could achieve anyway as Merc and Ferrari were just plain better.

Verstappen won in Germany, so his spin was irrelevant. Also, it was idiotic for Red Bull to put him on mediums in those conditions.


Verstappen got a penalty for pushing bottas into the wall not for unsafe release so not a team mistake

He could easily have put a better lap in earlier during the session, and got through - a mistake is still a mistake regardless of outcome

Just think it's hilarious that you make these ommisions for Verstappen, was it not also moronic to put Hamilton on slicks when it just started raining, despite him telling them not to do it, and then having a disastrous pitstop which cost him almost a minute


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:22 am 
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Who'd have thought that someone thinking Lewis isn't the bestest would result in some resistance on this forum.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:59 am 
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Covalent wrote:
Who'd have thought that someone thinking Lewis isn't the bestest would result in some resistance on this forum.


Thanks for your input dude :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:39 am 
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FormulaFun wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Who'd have thought that someone thinking Lewis isn't the bestest would result in some resistance on this forum.


Thanks for your input dude :thumbup:

Glad I could contribute :thumbup:
Happy converting.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:44 am 
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Covalent wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Who'd have thought that someone thinking Lewis isn't the bestest would result in some resistance on this forum.


Thanks for your input dude :thumbup:

Glad I could contribute :thumbup:
Happy converting.


I don't think many need converting as you put it, things are looking bleak for vettel in his equivalent thread tho you better get back to it


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:55 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
poker, a couple of things:

1. I said in 2017 that Verstappen was the fastest driver on the grid, not the outright best.

2. Hungary was the only serious mistake Verstappen made all season in 2017, which is the same number of serious mistakes Hamilton made that year (Brazil).

3. This year, Verstappen has been slightly better than Hamilton overall, although the gap has decreased because of Spa.

In 2017 Hamilton won the WDC against a competitive Ferrari whilst Verstappen finished behind his teammate in the WDC and I believe that Ricciardo had more mechanical retirements, hardly a candidate for driver of the year?

This is such a dishonest way of representing Verstappen’s season and I’m actually quite disappointed in you since you are normally a fairly objective poster.

In 2012, Hamilton and Button both had two mechanical retirements (LH in Singapore and Abu Dhabi, JB in Bahrain and Monza). Button finished the season only two points behind Hamilton in the end. Does this mean that Hamilton and Button drove at a similar level in 2012?

Again, you really need to analyze 2017 further if you want to understand why I rate Max so highly that season. He was utterly dominant over Ricciardo whenever both cars were running.

I do realise that Verstappen was faster than Ricciardo in 2017 but he also had a lot of collisions with other cars, the only ones that get chronicled are the ones that cost him, for instance in one race he hit and damaged Vettel's car whilst his own car remained intact.

For these kind of reasons people were not talking about Verstappen in such glowing terms as they have been this year, people were not saying that Verstappen was the best driver in F1 apart from obvious fans like yourself.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:55 am 
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FormulaFun wrote:
Covalent wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Who'd have thought that someone thinking Lewis isn't the bestest would result in some resistance on this forum.


Thanks for your input dude :thumbup:

Glad I could contribute :thumbup:
Happy converting.


I don't think many need converting as you put it, things are looking bleak for vettel in his equivalent thread tho you better get back to it

Oh I see you're over there as well, big surprise. Seems your arguments have been debunked by several members already so I don't really need to get back to it at the moment but thanks for your concern :thumbup:

To the rest: Sorry for the OT.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:59 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Hamilton has made two serious mistakes this year. Austria and Germany. Verstappen has only made one.

What serious mistake did he make in Austria?

Damaging his front wing running wide on the kerb.

So we're now drawing an equivalence between a mistake that forces you to change your nose and a mistake that takes you out of the race? We're also dumbing down the conversation for driver of the year to simply counting errors? I just can't take Kingvoid seriously on topics like this.

No indeed, for my part he did start with good scientific reasoning but when that didn't quite carry the full weight he hoped it would, then it quickly descended into the normal cherry picking argument.

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