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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:28 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
mds wrote:
Pokerman, I don't understand the point. How is trying to argue that most drivers who promoted were backed by F1 teams, going to prove that there were too many?

Drivers "could" avoid each other. Sure. But at least drivers had a far cheaper option to run top level series and try to get noticed. The point has been given before, take away FR3.5 and you just keep a terribly expensive F2 series. How is that supposed to help the likes of Frijns? It won't. All it means is that there now will be even less good seats at top level, and the drivers without huge budgets stand even less of a chance of landing a good one.

But in the end, refute this: we had two series, both were healthy, so both could exist just fine. Economically that is the entire proof there weren't too many series.


:thumbup:

I find it sad to see diversity gone and series like FR 3.5 and Euro F3 effectively destroyed. They provided excellent motor racing. And, to add to your reasoning that I wholehertedly support, they provided accessibly monoposto racing for the fans - outside expensive F1 weekends and on accessible circuits at accessible times.

A really sad development.

I did some quick research, FR3.5, F3 and GP3 cost virtually the same to compete in so why all the angst?


How does that relate to what I wrote?
I am confused ...


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:53 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
mds wrote:
Pokerman, I don't understand the point. How is trying to argue that most drivers who promoted were backed by F1 teams, going to prove that there were too many?

Drivers "could" avoid each other. Sure. But at least drivers had a far cheaper option to run top level series and try to get noticed. The point has been given before, take away FR3.5 and you just keep a terribly expensive F2 series. How is that supposed to help the likes of Frijns? It won't. All it means is that there now will be even less good seats at top level, and the drivers without huge budgets stand even less of a chance of landing a good one.

But in the end, refute this: we had two series, both were healthy, so both could exist just fine. Economically that is the entire proof there weren't too many series.


:thumbup:

I find it sad to see diversity gone and series like FR 3.5 and Euro F3 effectively destroyed. They provided excellent motor racing. And, to add to your reasoning that I wholehertedly support, they provided accessibly monoposto racing for the fans - outside expensive F1 weekends and on accessible circuits at accessible times.

A really sad development.

I did some quick research, FR3.5, F3 and GP3 cost virtually the same to compete in so why all the angst?


The cost of FR3.5 was a lot less than GP2 and the cost of F3 are currently quite a bit less than GP3. Enough to make a difference anyway.

You're trying to make it sound like FR3.5 stood head and shoulders with GP2 which it didn't, also do you have figures, I've seen £600K for GP3 and €700K for F3.

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place

Wins: Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:57 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
mds wrote:
Pokerman, I don't understand the point. How is trying to argue that most drivers who promoted were backed by F1 teams, going to prove that there were too many?

Drivers "could" avoid each other. Sure. But at least drivers had a far cheaper option to run top level series and try to get noticed. The point has been given before, take away FR3.5 and you just keep a terribly expensive F2 series. How is that supposed to help the likes of Frijns? It won't. All it means is that there now will be even less good seats at top level, and the drivers without huge budgets stand even less of a chance of landing a good one.

But in the end, refute this: we had two series, both were healthy, so both could exist just fine. Economically that is the entire proof there weren't too many series.


:thumbup:

I find it sad to see diversity gone and series like FR 3.5 and Euro F3 effectively destroyed. They provided excellent motor racing. And, to add to your reasoning that I wholehertedly support, they provided accessibly monoposto racing for the fans - outside expensive F1 weekends and on accessible circuits at accessible times.

A really sad development.

I did some quick research, FR3.5, F3 and GP3 cost virtually the same to compete in so why all the angst?


How does that relate to what I wrote?
I am confused ...

You went around Europe watching FR3.5 and F3?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place

Wins: Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:55 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The cost of FR3.5 was a lot less than GP2 and the cost of F3 are currently quite a bit less than GP3. Enough to make a difference anyway.

You're trying to make it sound like FR3.5 stood head and shoulders with GP2 which it didn't, also do you have figures, I've seen £600K for GP3 and €700K for F3.

First off, both of those numbers are already way too high for anyone who isn't sponsored or independently wealthy to compete in.

Secondly, it's basic economics that the cost will go up when the number of seats goes down. Let's say right now there's 40 seats available and they cost $600,000 to get. Eliminate half those seats, and you've got 20 people who can afford seats, want seats, and can't get seats. The people who own those seats (the racing teams, in this case) know that the supply for the seats just went down while the demand didn't change, hence their seats have become more valuable: they can charge more for them, and with no competing racing series, sponsors and drivers will have no choice but to pay.

Bottom line, drivers don't just pay for the running costs of the car, they pay to outbid everyone else who wants their seat. With less seats and the same number of drivers, they're going to have to pay more to be one of the high bidders. Now maybe Brawn has a wonderfully fair system dreamed up to stop that from happening, but I'll have to see that to believe it.

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PF1 TOP THREE TEAM CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): 2017: 2nd| 2015: 1st
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:36 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
mds wrote:
Pokerman, I don't understand the point. How is trying to argue that most drivers who promoted were backed by F1 teams, going to prove that there were too many?

Drivers "could" avoid each other. Sure. But at least drivers had a far cheaper option to run top level series and try to get noticed. The point has been given before, take away FR3.5 and you just keep a terribly expensive F2 series. How is that supposed to help the likes of Frijns? It won't. All it means is that there now will be even less good seats at top level, and the drivers without huge budgets stand even less of a chance of landing a good one.

But in the end, refute this: we had two series, both were healthy, so both could exist just fine. Economically that is the entire proof there weren't too many series.


:thumbup:

I find it sad to see diversity gone and series like FR 3.5 and Euro F3 effectively destroyed. They provided excellent motor racing. And, to add to your reasoning that I wholehertedly support, they provided accessibly monoposto racing for the fans - outside expensive F1 weekends and on accessible circuits at accessible times.

A really sad development.

I did some quick research, FR3.5, F3 and GP3 cost virtually the same to compete in so why all the angst?


How does that relate to what I wrote?
I am confused ...

You went around Europe watching FR3.5 and F3?


Virtually every F3 Euro event and over the years many FR 3.5, yes. But that is not the point.

Both series represented accessible and affordable monoposto racing around Europe - something that GP2 and GP3 don't. Part of the fascination of motor racing is having races in your area (broadley) at affordable prices and accessible time schedules. This is also drawing new fans in. Now, if virtually every monoposto series outside the super expensive and very restricted F1 bill is dead that is a loss for the fans IMO. In addition to what mds, exidiron and mikey rightfully argue.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:23 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The cost of FR3.5 was a lot less than GP2 and the cost of F3 are currently quite a bit less than GP3. Enough to make a difference anyway.

You're trying to make it sound like FR3.5 stood head and shoulders with GP2 which it didn't, also do you have figures, I've seen £600K for GP3 and €700K for F3.

First off, both of those numbers are already way too high for anyone who isn't sponsored or independently wealthy to compete in.

Secondly, it's basic economics that the cost will go up when the number of seats goes down. Let's say right now there's 40 seats available and they cost $600,000 to get. Eliminate half those seats, and you've got 20 people who can afford seats, want seats, and can't get seats. The people who own those seats (the racing teams, in this case) know that the supply for the seats just went down while the demand didn't change, hence their seats have become more valuable: they can charge more for them, and with no competing racing series, sponsors and drivers will have no choice but to pay.

Bottom line, drivers don't just pay for the running costs of the car, they pay to outbid everyone else who wants their seat. With less seats and the same number of drivers, they're going to have to pay more to be one of the high bidders. Now maybe Brawn has a wonderfully fair system dreamed up to stop that from happening, but I'll have to see that to believe it.

First of all you are guessing that the costs will go up, it was only last season that there were concerns about the costs in F3.

https://www.autosport.com/f3/news/12514 ... budget-cap

Then like I've said before Brawn has said that he wants the best drivers not the ones with the most money and they have it in their power to control such things.

All the things you point out are the opposite to what Brawn wants so something somewhere doesn't add up.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place

Wins: Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:28 pm 
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Posts: 23897
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
:thumbup:

I find it sad to see diversity gone and series like FR 3.5 and Euro F3 effectively destroyed. They provided excellent motor racing. And, to add to your reasoning that I wholehertedly support, they provided accessibly monoposto racing for the fans - outside expensive F1 weekends and on accessible circuits at accessible times.

A really sad development.

I did some quick research, FR3.5, F3 and GP3 cost virtually the same to compete in so why all the angst?


How does that relate to what I wrote?
I am confused ...

You went around Europe watching FR3.5 and F3?


Virtually every F3 Euro event and over the years many FR 3.5, yes. But that is not the point.

Both series represented accessible and affordable monoposto racing around Europe - something that GP2 and GP3 don't. Part of the fascination of motor racing is having races in your area (broadley) at affordable prices and accessible time schedules. This is also drawing new fans in. Now, if virtually every monoposto series outside the super expensive and very restricted F1 bill is dead that is a loss for the fans IMO. In addition to what mds, exidiron and mikey rightfully argue.

It's a loss for spectators, how many spectate and are they stand alone events or support races?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place

Wins: Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:46 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
All the things you point out are the opposite to what Brawn wants so something somewhere doesn't add up.

Yep, and what doesn't add up is that I don't think Brawn can achieve a darned one of those things he wants.

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PF1 TOP THREE TEAM CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): 2017: 2nd| 2015: 1st
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 United States Champion! (world #3)


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:00 pm 
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If the stated reason for Ticktum chosing Euro F3 over GP3 for 2018 - see respective autosport.com article - is true, another reason for more variety in feeder categories surfaces: apparently, he cannot do GP3 because he has Red Bull simulator duties on F1 race weekends ...


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:58 am 
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A shame about FR3.5, less is not more in this case...

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:44 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
pokerman wrote:
You went around Europe watching FR3.5 and F3?


Virtually every F3 Euro event and over the years many FR 3.5, yes. But that is not the point.

Both series represented accessible and affordable monoposto racing around Europe - something that GP2 and GP3 don't. Part of the fascination of motor racing is having races in your area (broadley) at affordable prices and accessible time schedules. This is also drawing new fans in. Now, if virtually every monoposto series outside the super expensive and very restricted F1 bill is dead that is a loss for the fans IMO. In addition to what mds, exidiron and mikey rightfully argue.

It's a loss for spectators, how many spectate and are they stand alone events or support races?


The World Series events offered a weekend full of racing comprised of FR1.6, FR2.0, FR3.5, Clio Cup, Megane Trophy, R.S. 01 cup (not all every single year and/or event) at very low cost or even free. I attended the Zolder and Spa events multiple times, there were huge crowds and it was fantastic.

Of course it's a loss for spectators. How could one even debate this?

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:55 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
If the stated reason for Ticktum chosing Euro F3 over GP3 for 2018 - see respective autosport.com article - is true, another reason for more variety in feeder categories surfaces: apparently, he cannot do GP3 because he has Red Bull simulator duties on F1 race weekends ...

I don't think that would be a deal breaker if there was no other option?

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place

Wins: Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:58 pm 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
pokerman wrote:
You went around Europe watching FR3.5 and F3?


Virtually every F3 Euro event and over the years many FR 3.5, yes. But that is not the point.

Both series represented accessible and affordable monoposto racing around Europe - something that GP2 and GP3 don't. Part of the fascination of motor racing is having races in your area (broadley) at affordable prices and accessible time schedules. This is also drawing new fans in. Now, if virtually every monoposto series outside the super expensive and very restricted F1 bill is dead that is a loss for the fans IMO. In addition to what mds, exidiron and mikey rightfully argue.

It's a loss for spectators, how many spectate and are they stand alone events or support races?


The World Series events offered a weekend full of racing comprised of FR1.6, FR2.0, FR3.5, Clio Cup, Megane Trophy, R.S. 01 cup (not all every single year and/or event) at very low cost or even free. I attended the Zolder and Spa events multiple times, there were huge crowds and it was fantastic.

Of course it's a loss for spectators. How could one even debate this?

So it's not a stand alone event but has plenty of filler events that appease a variety of fans, was FR3.5 really worth watching this season, did they still get the same amount of fans?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place

Wins: Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:29 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
So it's not a stand alone event but has plenty of filler events that appease a variety of fans


FR3.5 was the big shot series though. That's why a lot of people actually went there. Big, fast, loud cars.

Quote:
was FR3.5 really worth watching this season, did they still get the same amount of fans?


Of course not, but that's irrelevant. The damage was done a few years ago.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:04 pm 
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A question for Pokerman: What is bad about drivers having FR3.5 as a competitive series, what harm did it do?


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:40 pm 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
pokerman wrote:
You went around Europe watching FR3.5 and F3?


Virtually every F3 Euro event and over the years many FR 3.5, yes. But that is not the point.

Both series represented accessible and affordable monoposto racing around Europe - something that GP2 and GP3 don't. Part of the fascination of motor racing is having races in your area (broadley) at affordable prices and accessible time schedules. This is also drawing new fans in. Now, if virtually every monoposto series outside the super expensive and very restricted F1 bill is dead that is a loss for the fans IMO. In addition to what mds, exidiron and mikey rightfully argue.

It's a loss for spectators, how many spectate and are they stand alone events or support races?


The World Series events offered a weekend full of racing comprised of FR1.6, FR2.0, FR3.5, Clio Cup, Megane Trophy, R.S. 01 cup (not all every single year and/or event) at very low cost or even free. I attended the Zolder and Spa events multiple times, there were huge crowds and it was fantastic.

Of course it's a loss for spectators. How could one even debate this?


:thumbup:


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:33 am 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Ross Brawn wants a structured ladder were F2 is the last step before F1 and the best will be given seats in F1, he wants drivers to go up the ladder based on talent alone and I believe in that respect that drivers will be helped, a future Frijns doesn't win 3 titles on the bounce and then basically his career stalls.

I don't understand how in fragmented series were drivers basically avoid one another how you determine who are the best drivers, the only FR3.5 drivers that went to F1 were already backed by F1 teams in the first place, the ones that weren't like your Wickens and Frijns they found out that winning the title meant very little to F1 teams and their future single seater career.

It's a pipe dream, and it will never happen. How is he going to make the teams take the best drivers? Just because the best maybe end up in F2 (and I'm not sure that will happen), nothing is making teams take them.

If anything, I think having this single path to F1 will make F2 seats more expensive and harder to come by for good drivers on a low budget.

Yes. F2 will always be doomed. If someone is good driver, there is good chance she/he will get some serious backing and sponsors would rather skip F2 in favour of F1 if F2 is very expensive. We need mutliple cheap series. Beside that points need to be based on how quick the cars and the drivers in some series are, because this all about drivers getting used to racing in very quick cars. If this is all about promoting some FIA series it doesn't make much sense and nobody should be surpised that F1 teams try to game current system.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:36 am 
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TheOtherGuy wrote:
And the FIA are absolutely stupid...


But hey, y'all asked for supelicence reforms because Verstappen is going to be "so dangerous" in an F1 car.


The wreck causers all have Super Licenses - for causing a incident their license should be suspended.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:47 am 
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TheOtherGuy wrote:
But hey, y'all asked for supelicence reforms because Verstappen is going to be "so dangerous" in an F1 car.

And what do you know, he was. It's a matter of opinion whether his age had anything to do with it, but he definitely went through a period of dangerous driving in 2016, and he still shows glimpses of it every now and then.

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