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When will McLaren get back on the podium?
Before the summer break 2%  2%  [ 2 ]
At Spa, miracle summer updates 1%  1%  [ 1 ]
In Singapore, they'll win it in fact! Button crashing out, so sad. 2%  2%  [ 2 ]
Before the end of the season 7%  7%  [ 9 ]
First half of 2016 17%  17%  [ 22 ]
Second half of 2016 23%  23%  [ 31 ]
2017 24%  24%  [ 32 ]
2018 14%  14%  [ 18 ]
After both current drivers have left the team 7%  7%  [ 9 ]
Never again, they'll be forced to quit the sport 5%  5%  [ 6 ]
Total votes : 132
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 12:29 pm 
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I voted second half of 2016. And that will not prove to be the good choice.
I wouldn't even be confident in changing the vote to 2017 now.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 1:04 pm 
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mds wrote:
I voted second half of 2016. And that will not prove to be the good choice.
I wouldn't even be confident in changing the vote to 2017 now.

Me neither and if I could change my vote I'd go for 2018 instead of 2017.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 1:38 pm 
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I voted 2nd half of 2016 and I'm not writing them off yet. Still pretty confident they'll be up there in 2017


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 2:27 pm 
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For this season I don't see them getting on the podium without a major calamity race on a non-power track. With a whole new car design for next year and the token system being scrapped (or is that the following year) anything can happen in 2017.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 6:09 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
I voted 2nd half of 2016 and I'm not writing them off yet. Still pretty confident they'll be up there in 2017

I agree with you, albeit nervously. Because if they're not up there in 2017, we're looking at a Williams-esque period of uncompetitiveness.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 6:43 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I voted 2nd half of 2016 and I'm not writing them off yet. Still pretty confident they'll be up there in 2017

I agree with you, albeit nervously. Because if they're not up there in 2017, we're looking at a Williams-esque period of uncompetitiveness.

The Honda engine will come good eventually as they understand it more and more. Just like Ferrari and Renault did. And I'm mindful of the fact that it was McLaren's proposal that's being used for 2017.

McLaren are a great team. When the engine comes right - and it will - they'll be fighting at the front again, where they belong


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 8:44 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I voted 2nd half of 2016 and I'm not writing them off yet. Still pretty confident they'll be up there in 2017

I agree with you, albeit nervously. Because if they're not up there in 2017, we're looking at a Williams-esque period of uncompetitiveness.

The Honda engine will come good eventually as they understand it more and more. Just like Ferrari and Renault did. And I'm mindful of the fact that it was McLaren's proposal that's being used for 2017.

McLaren are a great team. When the engine comes right - and it will - they'll be fighting at the front again, where they belong


I wouldn't call the Renault PU "good" just yet. Not when you see what it does to the fantastic RB chassis when power is king, like past Sunday.

But yeah, in the end, eventually, McLaren has to bounce back. It might take a few more years though.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 8:55 pm 
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mds wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I voted 2nd half of 2016 and I'm not writing them off yet. Still pretty confident they'll be up there in 2017

I agree with you, albeit nervously. Because if they're not up there in 2017, we're looking at a Williams-esque period of uncompetitiveness.

The Honda engine will come good eventually as they understand it more and more. Just like Ferrari and Renault did. And I'm mindful of the fact that it was McLaren's proposal that's being used for 2017.

McLaren are a great team. When the engine comes right - and it will - they'll be fighting at the front again, where they belong


I wouldn't call the Renault PU "good" just yet. Not when you see what it does to the fantastic RB chassis when power is king, like past Sunday.

But yeah, in the end, eventually, McLaren has to bounce back. It might take a few more years though.

It was good enough to power their cars to a couple of wins this year. Agree it's not up there with the best yet in terms of outright power, but it's certainly not an anchor.

I really, really don't think it will take couple more years. Next year the token restrictions are lifted so they have more flexibility to experiment. Yes, it may lead to penalties, but it will enable them to fine tune things.

The big plus is that they are so bad. While that sounds like a contradiction, it means it's likely that once they have found where their issues lie, they will probably experience a fairly hefty upswing in performance, not a gradual one. This has already happened with Ferrari and with Renault. Their chassis isn't bad by all accounts, so when this happens they should be transformed.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 9:07 pm 
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So far, the McLaren has not shown any kind of race pace likely to get them on a podium without serious dnf's from a lot of faster cars. They have raced at all sorts of circuits now as well and I can't spot a future circuit this year that will somehow suit their car.

I could be wrong though!

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 3:16 am 
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Blake wrote:
Actually, while the other teams were restricted in the amount of testing and development they could do in 2014, Honda did not have any such restrictions, and could see where Ferrari & Renault were having issues, while at the same time watch Merc and see what seemed to be working. I agree that it is not the same as what one learns in the races themselves, but I fully expected Honda to come in this year with both guns firing so to speak. I saw it as an advantage not having the in-season development limitations that they teams in the sport were stuck with.

So are they really "behind" in development because they didn't race last year... or are they behind because they just have not provided the product?


Yes and yes, I think. Merc (from the get-go) and Ferrari (more recently) are really doing an awesome job with what are very complex power units. Renault will get there. They know how to design engines. Honda took on a big task having been away from the everyday of F1 for several years. Lack of testing time during the year makes this an even steeper (re)learning curve. When they were working with Lucky Strike and after, running the team as Honda, there were credible stories that the communications lines were too long (to Tokyo) and they were behaving corporately (is that a word?) and not nimbly (is that one?). Then there's the language and culture gap. And to top it off, they won't (unlike all the other players) hire design guys from competitors, steeped in F1, its technologies, relationships and rumors.

A lot's changed since the glory days with McLaren close to 20 years ago. I think Dennis saw the new relationship through rose colored glasses. More fool him. Remember the "This is a piece of jewelry" boloney? 8)

My take? They might get there but boy they've made it real tough for themselves.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 3:37 am 
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I think in the longer term McLaren made the right movie partnering with Honda, but the growing pains of late are trying to say the least.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 1:22 pm 
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mds wrote:
I voted second half of 2016. And that will not prove to be the good choice.
I wouldn't even be confident in changing the vote to 2017 now.


Wise words.
The longer it goes on with out any result, the worse the chance of retaining those sponsorships.
My fear is that they might be banished to the midfield forever.
In hindsight had they kept the Merc engines they might have beaten Williams last year. They were starting to improve quite a bit at the end of 2014 just before the swap to Honda.

If they don't turn it around before the new Concorde agreement with the big teams and the FIA in 2020, they might get overlooked for the historical payments. If could be bye bye McLaren...

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 2:13 pm 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
So far, the McLaren has not shown any kind of race pace likely to get them on a podium without serious dnf's from a lot of faster cars. They have raced at all sorts of circuits now as well and I can't spot a future circuit this year that will somehow suit their car.

I could be wrong though!


I agree. The car sucks in general. I would like to think that next year with no token system in place and with 2 years of experience under their belt that Honda will bring the engine up to par so it will be down to the chassis only. But I'm not so sure. I have no confidence in their aero department. Absolutely none.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 2:25 pm 
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I don't think their aeroprogram is that bad, it's probably quite good. The engine is the problem, and it will still be the part that holds them back in 2017 if Honda doesn't get it together.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 4:49 pm 
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When you have teams like redbull and mercedes at the front simply being "not that bad" isnt going to cut it. You need much better than that.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 5:14 pm 
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When Honda pull their finger out.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:20 am 
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McLaren will have a chance to rise to the top ONLY after Honda has pulled the plug on their F1 engine program. It is an abject failure.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 8:05 pm 
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not in 2016 that's for sure - it must be 4 or 5 years since their last podium or is it longer than that ?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:38 pm 
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slide wrote:
not in 2016 that's for sure - it must be 4 or 5 years since their last podium or is it longer than that ?

Last podium was Australia 2014. That's 830 days ago, or a bit over 2 years. It was a one-off though - there weren't any in 2013, so for the last year that featured regular [podiums you'd be looking at 2012, which was indeed 4 years ago.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 3:42 am 
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I see no chance of them getting podium this season even if we have one crazy weather affected, SC ridden race. No chance at all. Specially when we have likes of Force India, Williams who are generally faster and ready to pounce when Merc or Ferrari or Redbull messes up.

So to get on podium in front of 2 other teams provided top 6 cars somehow all mess up is a bit of a stretch.

As far as regular podium is concerned, I dont see McLaren being there before 2018. Though there are some big changes coming next year. Power unit advantage enjoyed by Mercedes and Ferrari is too great to be overcome even without token system as those guys will also get free hand at development with them having a head start.
With Renault shown big improvements this year and McLaren and Honda still on backfoot, 2 years minimum for really competitive front end car is what I predict.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:15 am 
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funkymonkey wrote:
I see no chance of them getting podium this season even if we have one crazy weather affected, SC ridden race. No chance at all. Specially when we have likes of Force India, Williams who are generally faster and ready to pounce when Merc or Ferrari or Redbull messes up.

So to get on podium in front of 2 other teams provided top 6 cars somehow all mess up is a bit of a stretch.

As far as regular podium is concerned, I dont see McLaren being there before 2018. Though there are some big changes coming next year. Power unit advantage enjoyed by Mercedes and Ferrari is too great to be overcome even without token system as those guys will also get free hand at development with them having a head start.
With Renault shown big improvements this year and McLaren and Honda still on backfoot, 2 years minimum for really competitive front end car is what I predict.


Even if Mercedes and Ferrari ceased all development for 2 years, I see ZERO chance of Honda scoring even a podium. The pace of their development is beyond slow.

The other teams are simply faster, smarter, and able to execute better. Honda is completely out of their league.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 8:56 am 
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I voted "After both current drivers have left the team"

So far so good :(

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 9:18 am 
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HS Thompson wrote:
funkymonkey wrote:
I see no chance of them getting podium this season even if we have one crazy weather affected, SC ridden race. No chance at all. Specially when we have likes of Force India, Williams who are generally faster and ready to pounce when Merc or Ferrari or Redbull messes up.

So to get on podium in front of 2 other teams provided top 6 cars somehow all mess up is a bit of a stretch.

As far as regular podium is concerned, I dont see McLaren being there before 2018. Though there are some big changes coming next year. Power unit advantage enjoyed by Mercedes and Ferrari is too great to be overcome even without token system as those guys will also get free hand at development with them having a head start.
With Renault shown big improvements this year and McLaren and Honda still on backfoot, 2 years minimum for really competitive front end car is what I predict.


Even if Mercedes and Ferrari ceased all development for 2 years, I see ZERO chance of Honda scoring even a podium. The pace of their development is beyond slow.

The other teams are simply faster, smarter, and able to execute better. Honda is completely out of their league.

The only team that started well under the new regs was Mercedes. All teams have had issues. Ferrari were por in 2014 and only managed to start catching up in 2015. Renault were poor right from the start and only managed to provide a halfway decent PU in 2016 - if that hadn't been the case we wouldn't have had the divorce shenanigans we did have at the end of last year. Honda is the worst of the bunch, but you have to ask yourself whether the fact that a) they were the only team to have had zero experience with KERS and b) they started a year later than anyone else, had any impact upon their current situation. I would say emphatically yes. I think people largely underestimate the sheer complexity of these units and think it's just sloppy work by Honda, whereas the reality is more likely to be that the scale of the task is larger than anything ever undertaken before.I can't think of any other sport where participants are not allowed to practice or test beforehand. They all have to do their development on track and if they start on the back foot, as everybody bar Mercedes did, then the opportunities to correct that are limited. It cannot be coincidence that the manufacturer struggling the most is also the most recent addition to the sport.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 6:38 pm 
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I genuinely think they will have a shot next year. Honda now know what parts they have to shuffle around in their layout to catch up to Ferrari,Renault and Mercedes and they are currently testing different combustion technologies so they can implement their own versions of what the others are running so the PU that starts in 2017 should be at least in the ballpark.

Then it's over to McLaren who I think are more than capable of building a car good enough for podiums at least and obviously they have no issue with the drivers being able to grab one. If they can get a few 5th places with this PU they can easily grab a podium next year you would think.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 8:53 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
I genuinely think they will have a shot next year. Honda now know what parts they have to shuffle around in their layout to catch up to Ferrari,Renault and Mercedes and they are currently testing different combustion technologies so they can implement their own versions of what the others are running so the PU that starts in 2017 should be at least in the ballpark.

Then it's over to McLaren who I think are more than capable of building a car good enough for podiums at least and obviously they have no issue with the drivers being able to grab one. If they can get a few 5th places with this PU they can easily grab a podium next year you would think.

I do agree with you and I've been pretty confident up to now that next year they will be genuine contenders. But Honda's latest statement has thrown me a bit as it suggests they don't really have a handle on their issues. I mean, I can understand them being cautious about a title challenge but to say they won't get podiums until 2018? That sounds quite defeatist to me.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:55 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
I genuinely think they will have a shot next year. Honda now know what parts they have to shuffle around in their layout to catch up to Ferrari,Renault and Mercedes and they are currently testing different combustion technologies so they can implement their own versions of what the others are running so the PU that starts in 2017 should be at least in the ballpark.

Then it's over to McLaren who I think are more than capable of building a car good enough for podiums at least and obviously they have no issue with the drivers being able to grab one. If they can get a few 5th places with this PU they can easily grab a podium next year you would think.

I do agree with you and I've been pretty confident up to now that next year they will be genuine contenders. But Honda's latest statement has thrown me a bit as it suggests they don't really have a handle on their issues. I mean, I can understand them being cautious about a title challenge but to say they won't get podiums until 2018? That sounds quite defeatist to me.


I think i'm just being hopeful that they're going down the 'under promise, over deliver' route here but I do share the worry they don't seem 100% sure of which direction to take on some aspects* and there does seem a disconnect between themselves and McLaren on what the future holds. It would be nice if they got on the same page when talking about future expectations.

*Quick example would be with the testing different combustion techniques to introduce onto the car. On the face of it that sounds perfectly reasonable and normal, but for me now that we know what technique Ferrari are using(TJI) and Mahle have offered the same thing to any team that wants to use it I really don't see why they should be running a R&D project on other solutions which just delays getting it onto the car and eats into development time for Mobil to create a fuel to catch up up with the competition who have had several upgrades after initially implementing it.

I realize these people are a lot smarter than me and there will be method in their apparent madness but it just appears that Honda don't share the same urgency that McLaren do and I think that just fuels the feeling of disconnect.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 9:41 pm 
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The 'who will get the most podiums out of BOT PER GRO' thread revival reminded me of this thread, now that the season is over...

55% of voters were wrong.

My vote was/is 2017, less confident now, grown progressively less confident as this season kept going by with little improvement. Hope the new regs can throw McLaren a bone.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 10:06 pm 
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I voted 2017, remains to be seen if even that was too optimistic.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 10:07 pm 
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I still think 2017!


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 10:13 pm 
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Yeah I should maybe have pointed out that I didn´t vote right now :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 8:25 am 
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Haha I was extra pessimistic - "After both current drivers have left the team". I'm 50% there

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 9:06 am 
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mcdo wrote:
Haha I was extra pessimistic - "After both current drivers have left the team". I'm 50% there


Nah your not...Jensons still in the team he's just not driving ;)


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 8:46 pm 
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Still not confident about 2017. If they were able to get Paddy Lowe I would have gotten my hopes up. The whole BP fuel thing does not sound good and I feel they needed new blood in their technical department.

On a positive note Stoffel will bring some life to the team I think and so far I like Zack Brown in and Ron Dennis out.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 8:42 am 
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Maybe never - if this Honda partnership doesn't work - they could go backwards like Williams and others quite quickly. No results in the next 2 years and they could be history


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 10:38 pm 
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Well, according to Boullier not only would they have been on the podium this year with e.g. a Merc engine but they would have won races

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/127560/mclaren-would-have-won-with-best-engine

"If we had the best engine this year, we would have won races," Boullier told Autosport.

"We know, the GPS traces [of corner speeds] tell us."


He's clearly laying the blame for their lack of pace at Honda's door


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 11:03 pm 
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F1Oz wrote:
Maybe never - if this Honda partnership doesn't work - they could go backwards like Williams and others quite quickly. No results in the next 2 years and they could be history

Williams has been on the podium as recently as this year, so I'm not sure that analogy really works...

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 1:53 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Well, according to Boullier not only would they have been on the podium this year with e.g. a Merc engine but they would have won races

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/127560/mclaren-would-have-won-with-best-engine

"If we had the best engine this year, we would have won races," Boullier told Autosport.

"We know, the GPS traces [of corner speeds] tell us."


He's clearly laying the blame for their lack of pace at Honda's door

I think McLaren are delusional and that's why they under achieve so much.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 6:12 am 
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mac_d wrote:
2016 I think.

Good result yesterday, but I think that race was a bit of a crazy one with a lot going on. And a number of cars that would likely have been faster dropped out.

Then again, a slightly crazier race, or a downpour at the right time for Alonso or Button and I they look like they'd have at least a fighting chance now at a result. That's a slightly bleak outlook but not as bleak as it was at the start of the season.

Macca will only get back to the top after they re-sign the best driver of this generation Lewis Hamilton


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:05 am 
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bonecrasher wrote:
mac_d wrote:
2016 I think.

Good result yesterday, but I think that race was a bit of a crazy one with a lot going on. And a number of cars that would likely have been faster dropped out.

Then again, a slightly crazier race, or a downpour at the right time for Alonso or Button and I they look like they'd have at least a fighting chance now at a result. That's a slightly bleak outlook but not as bleak as it was at the start of the season.

Macca will only get back to the top after they re-sign the best driver of this generation Lewis Hamilton


So You saying had Hamilton been in McLaren this year, he would've won a race or two?

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:16 am 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
bonecrasher wrote:
Macca will only get back to the top after they re-sign the best driver of this generation Lewis Hamilton

So You saying had Hamilton been in McLaren this year, he would've won a race or two?

Assuming he smuggled a full technical brief out of Brackley when he left, and managed to hide a Merc engine under his coat... Sure! :lol: ;)

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