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Rank the Drivers in order
Poll ended at Wed Aug 28, 2019 5:26 pm
Rank the Drivers in order 2%  2%  [ 45 ]
Albon 1%  1%  [ 22 ]
Albon_1 1%  1%  [ 25 ]
Albon_2 1%  1%  [ 24 ]
Albon_3 2%  2%  [ 39 ]
Albon_4 0%  0%  [ 1 ]
Bottas 1%  1%  [ 17 ]
Bottas_1 1%  1%  [ 21 ]
Bottas_2 1%  1%  [ 28 ]
Bottas_3 1%  1%  [ 17 ]
Bottas_4 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Gasly 1%  1%  [ 25 ]
Gasly_1 1%  1%  [ 18 ]
Gasly_2 1%  1%  [ 16 ]
Gasly_3 0%  0%  [ 8 ]
Gasly_4 2%  2%  [ 37 ]
Giovianzzi 1%  1%  [ 20 ]
Giovianzzi_1 2%  2%  [ 31 ]
Giovianzzi_2 0%  0%  [ 5 ]
Giovianzzi_3 0%  0%  [ 5 ]
Giovianzzi_4 2%  2%  [ 40 ]
Grosjean 1%  1%  [ 22 ]
Grosjean_1 1%  1%  [ 21 ]
Grosjean_2 0%  0%  [ 7 ]
Grosjean_3 0%  0%  [ 6 ]
Grosjean_4 2%  2%  [ 39 ]
Hamilton 1%  1%  [ 24 ]
Hamilton_1 1%  1%  [ 24 ]
Hamilton_2 0%  0%  [ 1 ]
Hamilton_3 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Hamilton_4 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Hulkenberg 1%  1%  [ 24 ]
Hulkenberg_1 1%  1%  [ 24 ]
Hulkenberg_2 2%  2%  [ 31 ]
Hulkenberg_3 2%  2%  [ 38 ]
Hulkenberg_4 0%  0%  [ 2 ]
Kubica 1%  1%  [ 12 ]
Kubica_1 1%  1%  [ 12 ]
Kubica_2 2%  2%  [ 32 ]
Kubica_3 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Kubica_4 2%  2%  [ 45 ]
Kyvat 1%  1%  [ 22 ]
Kyvat_1 1%  1%  [ 20 ]
Kyvat_2 1%  1%  [ 25 ]
Kyvat_3 2%  2%  [ 36 ]
Kyvat_4 0%  0%  [ 2 ]
Leclerc 1%  1%  [ 25 ]
Leclerc_1 1%  1%  [ 24 ]
Leclerc_2 1%  1%  [ 25 ]
Leclerc_3 1%  1%  [ 13 ]
Leclerc_4 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Magnussen 1%  1%  [ 22 ]
Magnussen_1 2%  2%  [ 32 ]
Magnussen_2 1%  1%  [ 27 ]
Magnussen_3 1%  1%  [ 28 ]
Magnussen_4 1%  1%  [ 16 ]
Norris 1%  1%  [ 23 ]
Norris_1 1%  1%  [ 21 ]
Norris_2 1%  1%  [ 29 ]
Norris_3 1%  1%  [ 18 ]
Norris_4 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Perez 1%  1%  [ 18 ]
Perez_1 1%  1%  [ 18 ]
Perez_2 1%  1%  [ 24 ]
Perez_3 2%  2%  [ 34 ]
Perez_4 0%  0%  [ 8 ]
Raikkonen 1%  1%  [ 25 ]
Raikkonen_1 1%  1%  [ 17 ]
Raikkonen_2 1%  1%  [ 26 ]
Raikkonen_3 1%  1%  [ 15 ]
Raikkonen_4 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Ricciardo 1%  1%  [ 21 ]
Ricciardo_1 1%  1%  [ 23 ]
Ricciardo_2 1%  1%  [ 26 ]
Ricciardo_3 1%  1%  [ 28 ]
Ricciardo_4 0%  0%  [ 2 ]
Russell 1%  1%  [ 22 ]
Russell_1 1%  1%  [ 29 ]
Russell_2 1%  1%  [ 28 ]
Russell_3 1%  1%  [ 24 ]
Russell_4 0%  0%  [ 3 ]
Sainz 1%  1%  [ 28 ]
Sainz_1 1%  1%  [ 27 ]
Sainz_2 1%  1%  [ 19 ]
Sainz_3 0%  0%  [ 9 ]
Sainz_4 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Stroll 2%  2%  [ 31 ]
Stroll_1 1%  1%  [ 27 ]
Stroll_2 1%  1%  [ 13 ]
Stroll_3 1%  1%  [ 16 ]
Stroll_4 1%  1%  [ 29 ]
Verstappen 1%  1%  [ 25 ]
Verstappen_1 1%  1%  [ 18 ]
Verstappen_2 0%  0%  [ 2 ]
Verstappen_3 0%  0%  [ 1 ]
Verstappen_4 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Vettel 1%  1%  [ 22 ]
Vettel_1 1%  1%  [ 18 ]
Vettel_2 1%  1%  [ 17 ]
Vettel_3 1%  1%  [ 25 ]
Vettel_4 0%  0%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 1935
Author Message
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 4:24 pm 
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Posts: 213
As the F1 circus currently takes a breather, this seems like a good time to take stock of the driver performance for the (half) season gone by.

Here is my ranking:

Lewis Hamilton
Max Verstappen
Carlos Sainz
Kimi Raikkonen
Sebastian Vettel
Charles Leclerc
Valtteri Bottas
Lando Norris
George Russell
Alex Albon
Daniil Kvyat
Daniel Ricciardo
Nico Hulkenberg
Sergio Perez
Pierre Gasly
Kevin Magnussen
Robert Kubica
Lance Stroll
Romain Grosjean
Antonio Giovinazzi

Edited by Mod Aqua to add sortable poll


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 5:24 pm 
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I will add the ranking poll to this thread, that I beta tested earlier in the season, and we can see how the results compare.

Edit: Now added.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 6:27 pm 
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Here are some collated and averaged out media rankings

Image

.. Apparently made by an "Autosport forum user called Marklar".



***

My list:

Verstappen
Hamilton



Sainz
Bottas
Raikkonen

Norris
Vettel
Ricciardo
Leclerc
Russell
Hulkenberg
Perez
Kvyat

Albon
Magnussen
Grosjean

Giovinazzi
Gasly
Stroll
Kubica


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:14 pm 
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Posts: 3251
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Max Verstappen - Faultless so far, reminds me of Alonso in 2012.
Lewis Hamilton - Having a superb season, but messy races in Austria and Germany have taken the shine off it slightly.
Daniel Ricciardo - Is smashing Hulkenberg, contrary to my expectations.
Carlos Sainz - Clear best of the rest in the points table, and consistently makes up positions in races.
Kimi Raikkonen - His experience is really showing, scoring points in the majority of races. 31 points to Giovinazzi's 1 speaks volumes.
George Russell - Not much more he can do in that car other than beat Kubica, which he is doing handily. Has made very few errors.
Sebastian Vettel - Just about outperforming Leclerc overall, but he can do better than this.
Sergio Perez - Doing as well as ever, it's just that the car is much worse this year.
Charles Leclerc - A little disappointing. The speed is there but so is the occasional mistake.
Lando Norris - Qualifies well but has less than half the points of his team mate.
Valtteri Bottas - Started well and has faded since. A car that has been untouchable in a few races this season has flattered his points total somewhat.
Daniil Kvyat - Having a decent if unspectacular year. Not quite enough to justify a second stint in the senior team though.
Nico Hulkenberg - A bit disappointing, I thought he'd give Ricciardo something to think about. Threw away what could have been a great result in Germany.
Alex Albon - Solid first season, but seems to be a tad slower than Kvyat.
Kevin Magnussen - Inconsistent as ever. Needs to stop hitting his team mate.
Romain Grosjean - Inconsistent as ever. Needs to stop hitting his team mate.
Lance Stroll - Atrocious in qualifying. His only really good drive was in Canada, other than that he's largely benefited from others' misfortune or from strategy gambles.
Robert Kubica - Clearly not the driver he was before his accident, but the car and a strong team mate are making him look worse than he is in my opinion.
Antonio Giovinazzi - Well off the pace of his team mate. Only 1 point for the season is not enough to justify him keeping the seat.
Pierre Gasly - How many times has Verstappen lapped him in races this year?


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:05 pm 
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j man wrote:
Max Verstappen - Faultless so far, reminds me of Alonso in 2012.
Lewis Hamilton - Having a superb season, but messy races in Austria and Germany have taken the shine off it slightly.
Daniel Ricciardo - Is smashing Hulkenberg, contrary to my expectations.
Carlos Sainz - Clear best of the rest in the points table, and consistently makes up positions in races.
Kimi Raikkonen - His experience is really showing, scoring points in the majority of races. 31 points to Giovinazzi's 1 speaks volumes.
George Russell - Not much more he can do in that car other than beat Kubica, which he is doing handily. Has made very few errors.
Sebastian Vettel - Just about outperforming Leclerc overall, but he can do better than this.
Sergio Perez - Doing as well as ever, it's just that the car is much worse this year.
Charles Leclerc - A little disappointing. The speed is there but so is the occasional mistake.
Lando Norris - Qualifies well but has less than half the points of his team mate.
Valtteri Bottas - Started well and has faded since. A car that has been untouchable in a few races this season has flattered his points total somewhat.
Daniil Kvyat - Having a decent if unspectacular year. Not quite enough to justify a second stint in the senior team though.
Nico Hulkenberg - A bit disappointing, I thought he'd give Ricciardo something to think about. Threw away what could have been a great result in Germany.
Alex Albon - Solid first season, but seems to be a tad slower than Kvyat.
Kevin Magnussen - Inconsistent as ever. Needs to stop hitting his team mate.
Romain Grosjean - Inconsistent as ever. Needs to stop hitting his team mate.
Lance Stroll - Atrocious in qualifying. His only really good drive was in Canada, other than that he's largely benefited from others' misfortune or from strategy gambles.
Robert Kubica - Clearly not the driver he was before his accident, but the car and a strong team mate are making him look worse than he is in my opinion.
Antonio Giovinazzi - Well off the pace of his team mate. Only 1 point for the season is not enough to justify him keeping the seat.
Pierre Gasly - How many times has Verstappen lapped him in races this year?


I struggle to understand how Ricciardo is 10 positions higher than Hulkenberg. Qualifying is the only area where he is clearly outperforming him. They have both overall been rather poor this year. Ricciardo retired in australia, clumsily hit hulkenberg in bahrain, did one of the must stupid mistakes of any driver this year when revering into kvyat in Baku. His pace looks better than Hulkenberg, but the amount of mistakes this year from him is really really bad. I couldn't even rate him in the top 10. Even in france he did 2 things near the end of the race that gave him 2 penalties. It seems hulkenberg is getting judged from his recent crash in Germany from what you have written. Ricciardo has had far more silly crashes or breaking the rules than Hulkenberg. I think I would rate Ricciardo ahead because of his obvious pace advantage, but certainly both out of the top 10.

I also think Bottas has been judged a bit harshly. Not even in the top 10 when he has had as many poles as Hamilton and actually has been a challenge in qualifying and in a few races too. Given Hamilton's reputation, that is pretty impressive. Bottas crashed in germany, yes, hamilton very nearly did and many others crashed out too. and Bottas's latest race was basically no worse than Hamilton in Austria. It is clear that Hamilton has much more speed than Bottas but I just can't see how over half the grid has been better than him this year. Even good drivers like Vettel and Leclerc have had at least as many poor races as Bottas. Leclerc has been at fault for retiring twice as well as crashing in qualifying.

Sorry for commenting in this way most of the rest of your ratings is about where i would have them, but i just don't really understand why there is such a large gap based on all of this season for these 2 pairs of team mates. I feel that is is basing it a bit too much on recent occurrences.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:02 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
j man wrote:
Max Verstappen - Faultless so far, reminds me of Alonso in 2012.
Lewis Hamilton - Having a superb season, but messy races in Austria and Germany have taken the shine off it slightly.
Daniel Ricciardo - Is smashing Hulkenberg, contrary to my expectations.
Carlos Sainz - Clear best of the rest in the points table, and consistently makes up positions in races.
Kimi Raikkonen - His experience is really showing, scoring points in the majority of races. 31 points to Giovinazzi's 1 speaks volumes.
George Russell - Not much more he can do in that car other than beat Kubica, which he is doing handily. Has made very few errors.
Sebastian Vettel - Just about outperforming Leclerc overall, but he can do better than this.
Sergio Perez - Doing as well as ever, it's just that the car is much worse this year.
Charles Leclerc - A little disappointing. The speed is there but so is the occasional mistake.
Lando Norris - Qualifies well but has less than half the points of his team mate.
Valtteri Bottas - Started well and has faded since. A car that has been untouchable in a few races this season has flattered his points total somewhat.
Daniil Kvyat - Having a decent if unspectacular year. Not quite enough to justify a second stint in the senior team though.
Nico Hulkenberg - A bit disappointing, I thought he'd give Ricciardo something to think about. Threw away what could have been a great result in Germany.
Alex Albon - Solid first season, but seems to be a tad slower than Kvyat.
Kevin Magnussen - Inconsistent as ever. Needs to stop hitting his team mate.
Romain Grosjean - Inconsistent as ever. Needs to stop hitting his team mate.
Lance Stroll - Atrocious in qualifying. His only really good drive was in Canada, other than that he's largely benefited from others' misfortune or from strategy gambles.
Robert Kubica - Clearly not the driver he was before his accident, but the car and a strong team mate are making him look worse than he is in my opinion.
Antonio Giovinazzi - Well off the pace of his team mate. Only 1 point for the season is not enough to justify him keeping the seat.
Pierre Gasly - How many times has Verstappen lapped him in races this year?


I struggle to understand how Ricciardo is 10 positions higher than Hulkenberg. Qualifying is the only area where he is clearly outperforming him. They have both overall been rather poor this year. Ricciardo retired in australia, clumsily hit hulkenberg in bahrain, did one of the must stupid mistakes of any driver this year when revering into kvyat in Baku. His pace looks better than Hulkenberg, but the amount of mistakes this year from him is really really bad. I couldn't even rate him in the top 10. Even in france he did 2 things near the end of the race that gave him 2 penalties. It seems hulkenberg is getting judged from his recent crash in Germany from what you have written. Ricciardo has had far more silly crashes or breaking the rules than Hulkenberg. I think I would rate Ricciardo ahead because of his obvious pace advantage, but certainly both out of the top 10.

I also think Bottas has been judged a bit harshly. Not even in the top 10 when he has had as many poles as Hamilton and actually has been a challenge in qualifying and in a few races too. Given Hamilton's reputation, that is pretty impressive. Bottas crashed in germany, yes, hamilton very nearly did and many others crashed out too. and Bottas's latest race was basically no worse than Hamilton in Austria. It is clear that Hamilton has much more speed than Bottas but I just can't see how over half the grid has been better than him this year. Even good drivers like Vettel and Leclerc have had at least as many poor races as Bottas. Leclerc has been at fault for retiring twice as well as crashing in qualifying.

Sorry for commenting in this way most of the rest of your ratings is about where i would have them, but i just don't really understand why there is such a large gap based on all of this season for these 2 pairs of team mates. I feel that is is basing it a bit too much on recent occurrences.


Present your list.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:58 am 
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Haven't really firmed mine up enough to comment yet, but I think people are getting too carried away with the Macca boys. They're doing a good job, but I feel like everyone is somehow thinking they're delivering these results in a car that's just as poor as last year's, rather than a car that's the clear fourth best on the grid.

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PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 15 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion | #2 in the world in 2017


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:05 am 
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This is how I rank their season performance, but not how I rank them independently. Some drivers (Vettel/Ricciardo for example) are much lower due to print in very poor performances this season. I've also grouped them into gold, silver, bronze and relegation groups, where I consider performance to be quite similar and difficult to differentiate. The top three in particular are very difficult to separate and are ultimately it came down to one or two races. Max has not had a bad race this season even though I would still hold that Hamilton is still the fastest racer.

Here is how I voted in the poll:




















1Verstappen
2Hamilton
3Sainz
4Bottas
5Raikkonen
6Russell
7Norris
8Leclerc
9Ricciardo
10Kyvat
11Albon
12Hulkenberg
13Perez
14Vettel
15Stroll
16Magnussen
17Grosjean
18Giovianzzi
19Gasly
20Kubica


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:47 am 
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Exediron wrote:
Haven't really firmed mine up enough to comment yet, but I think people are getting too carried away with the Macca boys. They're doing a good job, but I feel like everyone is somehow thinking they're delivering these results in a car that's just as poor as last year's, rather than a car that's the clear fourth best on the grid.


I felt the same even as I posted the list, but what do?

***

To add to the above, what I mean is: beyond Max and Lewis there haven't really been any outstanding perfomances. The Ferrari guys have produced numerous errors and so have the Renault guys, so how much credit does one give on name alone? Perhaps Sainz is slower than all of those guys, but he's the only guy in a car somewhat worthy who has put together a very solid and secure campaign, and as Norris hasn't been much worse I feel compelled to place him not too far behind. Perhaps Russell has had an outstanding season, but with Kubica as a barometer it is hard to judge him, and yet the same can be said for a degree with Sainz given that Norris is himself a rookie and largely an unknown quality. Naturally, Russell is also a rookie - I expect to see him place very highly on some lists and in the bottom half of other lists. It's pretty tricky to come up with a satisfying appraisal.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:18 am 
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I think Raikkonen has been a true standout this season, and has provided enough reason to believe that it isn't the drivers' faults that Ferrari has failed to win a title in recent years.

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Does anyone think that there has ever been a moment of frustration with his father when Max has pointed out to Jos that he was the Pierre Gasly of 1994?


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:51 am 
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Exediron wrote:
Haven't really firmed mine up enough to comment yet, but I think people are getting too carried away with the Macca boys. They're doing a good job, but I feel like everyone is somehow thinking they're delivering these results in a car that's just as poor as last year's, rather than a car that's the clear fourth best on the grid.

By the same token Hamilton is therefore just delivering what is expected from a car that is clearly usually the best on the grid. The midfield is tougher than the front of the grid as you have to respond to pit strategies both ahead and behind meaning to deliver the car's potential in every race is a lot harder. Sainz has excelled this year - do I think he's the third best driver on the grid? No. But he's put in one of the top three performances. He's only 5 points behind Gasly in the WDC.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:02 am 
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Does anyone think that there has ever been a moment of frustration with his father when Max has pointed out to Jos that he was the Pierre Gasley of 1994?

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Does anyone think that there has ever been a moment of frustration with his father when Max has pointed out to Jos that he was the Pierre Gasly of 1994?


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:27 am 
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Todd wrote:
I think Raikkonen has been a true standout this season, and has provided enough reason to believe that it isn't the drivers' faults that Ferrari has failed to win a title in recent years.



Even if I were to grant the first part of your statement, and I don't quite, I don't see how the second part follows from it. Maybe Kimi is simply driving better this year given the scope of achievement his material allows. By what line of reasoning do you arrive at the implication that Kimi and Sebastian somehow did right by the car they were given last year?


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:13 am 
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The alternative is that Kimi Raikkonen finally figured out what it takes to be a productive F1 driver about 18 years after he entered the series and a dozen years after winning the title. There were any number of people who thought he was a waste of a seat last year and this year he's making the other midfield drivers look sloppy and inconsistent while driving for a team a fraction the size of last-place Williams. Meanwhile, his teammate is competing with the Williams drivers in the WDC. If you look at the resources, Giovinazzi may be doing a better job than Russell. Meanwhile, Kimi is in the top ten. Think about that. Ferrari is a terribly run team with a CYA mentality. LeClerc has looked good at times with almost nothing to show for it. Vettel has looked as bad as Raikkonen did last year yet he's been able to turn in exceptional performances when he can control his own destiny.

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Does anyone think that there has ever been a moment of frustration with his father when Max has pointed out to Jos that he was the Pierre Gasly of 1994?


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:39 am 
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Invade wrote:
Here are some collated and averaged out media rankings

Image

.. Apparently made by an "Autosport forum user called Marklar".



***

My list:

Verstappen
Hamilton



Sainz
Bottas
Raikkonen

Norris
Vettel
Ricciardo
Leclerc
Russell
Hulkenberg
Perez
Kvyat

Albon
Magnussen
Grosjean

Giovinazzi
Gasly
Stroll
Kubica


I find this table rather amusing...

Hamilton only an 8.67 in Canada? Where he kept up with Vettel in a slower car, and pressured him into making a mistake? Seriously?

Spain, where Hamilton was commanding in his win.

Austria, where Hamilton (and Bottas) were pretty much eliminated from being able to compete by a car that was badly overheating the entire race. You can't blame the driver for car limitations....

German, again, was mostly caused by Mercedes team pitting Hamilton for slicks, when they were NOT suitable. And, Hamilton was pretty ill the entire weekend too. A bit unfair to judge him so harshly.

This just reinforces my opinion that the vast majority of journalists are know it alls that know SFA.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:47 am 
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Invade wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
j man wrote:
Max Verstappen - Faultless so far, reminds me of Alonso in 2012.
Lewis Hamilton - Having a superb season, but messy races in Austria and Germany have taken the shine off it slightly.
Daniel Ricciardo - Is smashing Hulkenberg, contrary to my expectations.
Carlos Sainz - Clear best of the rest in the points table, and consistently makes up positions in races.
Kimi Raikkonen - His experience is really showing, scoring points in the majority of races. 31 points to Giovinazzi's 1 speaks volumes.
George Russell - Not much more he can do in that car other than beat Kubica, which he is doing handily. Has made very few errors.
Sebastian Vettel - Just about outperforming Leclerc overall, but he can do better than this.
Sergio Perez - Doing as well as ever, it's just that the car is much worse this year.
Charles Leclerc - A little disappointing. The speed is there but so is the occasional mistake.
Lando Norris - Qualifies well but has less than half the points of his team mate.
Valtteri Bottas - Started well and has faded since. A car that has been untouchable in a few races this season has flattered his points total somewhat.
Daniil Kvyat - Having a decent if unspectacular year. Not quite enough to justify a second stint in the senior team though.
Nico Hulkenberg - A bit disappointing, I thought he'd give Ricciardo something to think about. Threw away what could have been a great result in Germany.
Alex Albon - Solid first season, but seems to be a tad slower than Kvyat.
Kevin Magnussen - Inconsistent as ever. Needs to stop hitting his team mate.
Romain Grosjean - Inconsistent as ever. Needs to stop hitting his team mate.
Lance Stroll - Atrocious in qualifying. His only really good drive was in Canada, other than that he's largely benefited from others' misfortune or from strategy gambles.
Robert Kubica - Clearly not the driver he was before his accident, but the car and a strong team mate are making him look worse than he is in my opinion.
Antonio Giovinazzi - Well off the pace of his team mate. Only 1 point for the season is not enough to justify him keeping the seat.
Pierre Gasly - How many times has Verstappen lapped him in races this year?


I struggle to understand how Ricciardo is 10 positions higher than Hulkenberg. Qualifying is the only area where he is clearly outperforming him. They have both overall been rather poor this year. Ricciardo retired in australia, clumsily hit hulkenberg in bahrain, did one of the must stupid mistakes of any driver this year when revering into kvyat in Baku. His pace looks better than Hulkenberg, but the amount of mistakes this year from him is really really bad. I couldn't even rate him in the top 10. Even in france he did 2 things near the end of the race that gave him 2 penalties. It seems hulkenberg is getting judged from his recent crash in Germany from what you have written. Ricciardo has had far more silly crashes or breaking the rules than Hulkenberg. I think I would rate Ricciardo ahead because of his obvious pace advantage, but certainly both out of the top 10.

I also think Bottas has been judged a bit harshly. Not even in the top 10 when he has had as many poles as Hamilton and actually has been a challenge in qualifying and in a few races too. Given Hamilton's reputation, that is pretty impressive. Bottas crashed in germany, yes, hamilton very nearly did and many others crashed out too. and Bottas's latest race was basically no worse than Hamilton in Austria. It is clear that Hamilton has much more speed than Bottas but I just can't see how over half the grid has been better than him this year. Even good drivers like Vettel and Leclerc have had at least as many poor races as Bottas. Leclerc has been at fault for retiring twice as well as crashing in qualifying.

Sorry for commenting in this way most of the rest of your ratings is about where i would have them, but i just don't really understand why there is such a large gap based on all of this season for these 2 pairs of team mates. I feel that is is basing it a bit too much on recent occurrences.


Present your list.


It is rather difficult to judge some of them. especially some against new team mates or an all new line up. I know it seems a bit unreasonable the way i wrote this but these were two team mate pairings that I thought should be a fair bit closer together than they are from what I think has been reasonably clear evidence.


I probably could rate the Bottom 5 and top 2 but I will have to think a fair bit more about the rest. I think the way you use gaps makes the list look better. I certainly would rate Verstappen adn hamilton in the top 2 in that order with a gap to the rest, but I don't know who would follow on. I agree with Exediron in a way that it is a bit hard to rate the drivers at McLaren. I'm not convinced he's actually very quick at all. He's certainly not great in qualifying and a mix of his team mates luck and carious starts as well as me thinking the McLaren is clearly the 4th best car is making him look better than he is. I think I would certainly rate him near the top, but just don't know where to put him relative to other drivers.


The drivers near the Bottom are easier to place for me.

1: Verstappen
2: Hamilton

3:
4:
5:
6:
7:
8:
9:
10: Kvyat
11: Albon
12: Perez
13: Ricciardo
14: Hulkenberg

15: Stroll
16: Grosjean
17: Gasly
18: Magnussen
19: Giovinazzi

20: Kubica

I'm finding it hard rating the Mclaren drivers and Kimi also. The alfa romeo is way better than the Sauber last year and Giovinazzi IMO is a clear step down from Ericsson is how i see it. The car is clearly better as i said yet Giovinassi would only have the same number of points as Ericsson at this stage last year. Had both cars not been given a penalty in Germany. Kimi is solid but now i look at it, I don't know if i should have put him lower down. I don't think he's been outstanding. The car is simply a huge improvement over last year.

If i finish this list i will possibly end up shuffling some again. It is pretty hard. I just commented earlier as I struggled to understand the reasoning for such a large gap between certain team mates.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:44 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
j man wrote:
Max Verstappen - Faultless so far, reminds me of Alonso in 2012.
Lewis Hamilton - Having a superb season, but messy races in Austria and Germany have taken the shine off it slightly.
Daniel Ricciardo - Is smashing Hulkenberg, contrary to my expectations.
Carlos Sainz - Clear best of the rest in the points table, and consistently makes up positions in races.
Kimi Raikkonen - His experience is really showing, scoring points in the majority of races. 31 points to Giovinazzi's 1 speaks volumes.
George Russell - Not much more he can do in that car other than beat Kubica, which he is doing handily. Has made very few errors.
Sebastian Vettel - Just about outperforming Leclerc overall, but he can do better than this.
Sergio Perez - Doing as well as ever, it's just that the car is much worse this year.
Charles Leclerc - A little disappointing. The speed is there but so is the occasional mistake.
Lando Norris - Qualifies well but has less than half the points of his team mate.
Valtteri Bottas - Started well and has faded since. A car that has been untouchable in a few races this season has flattered his points total somewhat.
Daniil Kvyat - Having a decent if unspectacular year. Not quite enough to justify a second stint in the senior team though.
Nico Hulkenberg - A bit disappointing, I thought he'd give Ricciardo something to think about. Threw away what could have been a great result in Germany.
Alex Albon - Solid first season, but seems to be a tad slower than Kvyat.
Kevin Magnussen - Inconsistent as ever. Needs to stop hitting his team mate.
Romain Grosjean - Inconsistent as ever. Needs to stop hitting his team mate.
Lance Stroll - Atrocious in qualifying. His only really good drive was in Canada, other than that he's largely benefited from others' misfortune or from strategy gambles.
Robert Kubica - Clearly not the driver he was before his accident, but the car and a strong team mate are making him look worse than he is in my opinion.
Antonio Giovinazzi - Well off the pace of his team mate. Only 1 point for the season is not enough to justify him keeping the seat.
Pierre Gasly - How many times has Verstappen lapped him in races this year?


I struggle to understand how Ricciardo is 10 positions higher than Hulkenberg. Qualifying is the only area where he is clearly outperforming him. They have both overall been rather poor this year. Ricciardo retired in australia, clumsily hit hulkenberg in bahrain, did one of the must stupid mistakes of any driver this year when revering into kvyat in Baku. His pace looks better than Hulkenberg, but the amount of mistakes this year from him is really really bad. I couldn't even rate him in the top 10. Even in france he did 2 things near the end of the race that gave him 2 penalties. It seems hulkenberg is getting judged from his recent crash in Germany from what you have written. Ricciardo has had far more silly crashes or breaking the rules than Hulkenberg. I think I would rate Ricciardo ahead because of his obvious pace advantage, but certainly both out of the top 10.

I also think Bottas has been judged a bit harshly. Not even in the top 10 when he has had as many poles as Hamilton and actually has been a challenge in qualifying and in a few races too. Given Hamilton's reputation, that is pretty impressive. Bottas crashed in germany, yes, hamilton very nearly did and many others crashed out too. and Bottas's latest race was basically no worse than Hamilton in Austria. It is clear that Hamilton has much more speed than Bottas but I just can't see how over half the grid has been better than him this year. Even good drivers like Vettel and Leclerc have had at least as many poor races as Bottas. Leclerc has been at fault for retiring twice as well as crashing in qualifying.

Sorry for commenting in this way most of the rest of your ratings is about where i would have them, but i just don't really understand why there is such a large gap based on all of this season for these 2 pairs of team mates. I feel that is is basing it a bit too much on recent occurrences.

That's fine, we all have our own opinions.

I feel that when people put these lists together there is not enough distinction made between car and driver. Ricciardo has been made to look worse because the car is poor, but from my point of view he is beating Hulkenberg much more comfortably than I expected. I rate Hulkenberg highly and thought he'd cause a bit of an upset this year. Ricciardo did start the year slowly and the Baku incident was admittedly silly, but overall he's come into that team and made it his own. Perhaps the best reflection of how he has performed is the the rumours that Renault are looking at replacing Hulkenberg, who did so well for them last season but now they feel is not performing to the new benchmark that has been set.

As for Bottas, as I said I think the superiority of the Mercedes has covered up some of his weaker performances this year. I mean races like France and Silverstone where he was nowhere near Hamilton's pace in the race yet came 2nd just because Mercedes had a comfortable gap to the other teams (although he made hard work of it in France). It was the sort of performance that in the previous two years would have yielded 4th or 5th. I agree that Vettel and Leclerc haven't performed that much better than Bottas has, that's why I haven't listed them particularly highly either and even stated Leclerc has been a little disappointing.

The margins here are very fine though, in a lot of cases you really have to nitpick to put one driver above another. I could probably justifiably re-arrange the top half of my list (aside from the top two) into any order.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:12 am 
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j man wrote:
Max Verstappen - Faultless so far, reminds me of Alonso in 2012.
Lewis Hamilton - Having a superb season, but messy races in Austria and Germany have taken the shine off it slightly.
Daniel Ricciardo - Is smashing Hulkenberg, contrary to my expectations.
Carlos Sainz - Clear best of the rest in the points table, and consistently makes up positions in races.
Kimi Raikkonen - His experience is really showing, scoring points in the majority of races. 31 points to Giovinazzi's 1 speaks volumes.
George Russell - Not much more he can do in that car other than beat Kubica, which he is doing handily. Has made very few errors.
Sebastian Vettel - Just about outperforming Leclerc overall, but he can do better than this.
Sergio Perez - Doing as well as ever, it's just that the car is much worse this year.
Charles Leclerc - A little disappointing. The speed is there but so is the occasional mistake.
Lando Norris - Qualifies well but has less than half the points of his team mate.
Valtteri Bottas - Started well and has faded since. A car that has been untouchable in a few races this season has flattered his points total somewhat.
Daniil Kvyat - Having a decent if unspectacular year. Not quite enough to justify a second stint in the senior team though.
Nico Hulkenberg - A bit disappointing, I thought he'd give Ricciardo something to think about. Threw away what could have been a great result in Germany.
Alex Albon - Solid first season, but seems to be a tad slower than Kvyat.
Kevin Magnussen - Inconsistent as ever. Needs to stop hitting his team mate.
Romain Grosjean - Inconsistent as ever. Needs to stop hitting his team mate.
Lance Stroll - Atrocious in qualifying. His only really good drive was in Canada, other than that he's largely benefited from others' misfortune or from strategy gambles.
Robert Kubica - Clearly not the driver he was before his accident, but the car and a strong team mate are making him look worse than he is in my opinion.
Antonio Giovinazzi - Well off the pace of his team mate. Only 1 point for the season is not enough to justify him keeping the seat.
Pierre Gasly - How many times has Verstappen lapped him in races this year?


He's having a good season, but not "faultless".

Dropped points in Monaco. Didn't get the most out of that weekend. Messy.
Canada-failed to execute a banker lap. His GB was pretty messy.
He's had a couple of botched starts, and was "lucky" to recover from his spin in Germany.
And he's passes are still not "clean". There's usually always some kind of contact e.g squeezing Leclerc in Austria, contact with Sainz in Bahrain etc

I'd rate him equal top with Hamilton. Hard to accurately rate Verstappen's season because Gasly has been so poor.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:11 am 
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SR1 wrote:
j man wrote:
Max Verstappen - Faultless so far, reminds me of Alonso in 2012.
Lewis Hamilton - Having a superb season, but messy races in Austria and Germany have taken the shine off it slightly.
Daniel Ricciardo - Is smashing Hulkenberg, contrary to my expectations.
Carlos Sainz - Clear best of the rest in the points table, and consistently makes up positions in races.
Kimi Raikkonen - His experience is really showing, scoring points in the majority of races. 31 points to Giovinazzi's 1 speaks volumes.
George Russell - Not much more he can do in that car other than beat Kubica, which he is doing handily. Has made very few errors.
Sebastian Vettel - Just about outperforming Leclerc overall, but he can do better than this.
Sergio Perez - Doing as well as ever, it's just that the car is much worse this year.
Charles Leclerc - A little disappointing. The speed is there but so is the occasional mistake.
Lando Norris - Qualifies well but has less than half the points of his team mate.
Valtteri Bottas - Started well and has faded since. A car that has been untouchable in a few races this season has flattered his points total somewhat.
Daniil Kvyat - Having a decent if unspectacular year. Not quite enough to justify a second stint in the senior team though.
Nico Hulkenberg - A bit disappointing, I thought he'd give Ricciardo something to think about. Threw away what could have been a great result in Germany.
Alex Albon - Solid first season, but seems to be a tad slower than Kvyat.
Kevin Magnussen - Inconsistent as ever. Needs to stop hitting his team mate.
Romain Grosjean - Inconsistent as ever. Needs to stop hitting his team mate.
Lance Stroll - Atrocious in qualifying. His only really good drive was in Canada, other than that he's largely benefited from others' misfortune or from strategy gambles.
Robert Kubica - Clearly not the driver he was before his accident, but the car and a strong team mate are making him look worse than he is in my opinion.
Antonio Giovinazzi - Well off the pace of his team mate. Only 1 point for the season is not enough to justify him keeping the seat.
Pierre Gasly - How many times has Verstappen lapped him in races this year?


He's having a good season, but not "faultless".

Dropped points in Monaco. Didn't get the most out of that weekend. Messy.
Canada-failed to execute a banker lap. His GB was pretty messy.
He's had a couple of botched starts, and was "lucky" to recover from his spin in Germany.
And he's passes are still not "clean". There's usually always some kind of contact e.g squeezing Leclerc in Austria, contact with Sainz in Bahrain etc

I'd rate him equal top with Hamilton. Hard to accurately rate Verstappen's season because Gasly has been so poor.

I think you're clutching at straws a bit here. These errors you have listed are either very minor ones or incidents that weren't really his fault. His GB was messy because Vettel crashed into him. The poor starts are more easily attributable to a car issue when Gasly has the same problem. The contact with Sainz in Bahrain was Sainz's fault in my opinion. Certainly these errors are much less significant than Hamilton's in Germany and Austria.

Is Gasly terrible or Max brilliant? When the gap between them is that large, it has to be both.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:21 am 
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j man wrote:
SR1 wrote:
j man wrote:
Max Verstappen - Faultless so far, reminds me of Alonso in 2012.
Lewis Hamilton - Having a superb season, but messy races in Austria and Germany have taken the shine off it slightly.
Daniel Ricciardo - Is smashing Hulkenberg, contrary to my expectations.
Carlos Sainz - Clear best of the rest in the points table, and consistently makes up positions in races.
Kimi Raikkonen - His experience is really showing, scoring points in the majority of races. 31 points to Giovinazzi's 1 speaks volumes.
George Russell - Not much more he can do in that car other than beat Kubica, which he is doing handily. Has made very few errors.
Sebastian Vettel - Just about outperforming Leclerc overall, but he can do better than this.
Sergio Perez - Doing as well as ever, it's just that the car is much worse this year.
Charles Leclerc - A little disappointing. The speed is there but so is the occasional mistake.
Lando Norris - Qualifies well but has less than half the points of his team mate.
Valtteri Bottas - Started well and has faded since. A car that has been untouchable in a few races this season has flattered his points total somewhat.
Daniil Kvyat - Having a decent if unspectacular year. Not quite enough to justify a second stint in the senior team though.
Nico Hulkenberg - A bit disappointing, I thought he'd give Ricciardo something to think about. Threw away what could have been a great result in Germany.
Alex Albon - Solid first season, but seems to be a tad slower than Kvyat.
Kevin Magnussen - Inconsistent as ever. Needs to stop hitting his team mate.
Romain Grosjean - Inconsistent as ever. Needs to stop hitting his team mate.
Lance Stroll - Atrocious in qualifying. His only really good drive was in Canada, other than that he's largely benefited from others' misfortune or from strategy gambles.
Robert Kubica - Clearly not the driver he was before his accident, but the car and a strong team mate are making him look worse than he is in my opinion.
Antonio Giovinazzi - Well off the pace of his team mate. Only 1 point for the season is not enough to justify him keeping the seat.
Pierre Gasly - How many times has Verstappen lapped him in races this year?


He's having a good season, but not "faultless".

Dropped points in Monaco. Didn't get the most out of that weekend. Messy.
Canada-failed to execute a banker lap. His GB was pretty messy.
He's had a couple of botched starts, and was "lucky" to recover from his spin in Germany.
And he's passes are still not "clean". There's usually always some kind of contact e.g squeezing Leclerc in Austria, contact with Sainz in Bahrain etc

I'd rate him equal top with Hamilton. Hard to accurately rate Verstappen's season because Gasly has been so poor.

I think you're clutching at straws a bit here. These errors you have listed are either very minor ones or incidents that weren't really his fault. His GB was messy because Vettel crashed into him. The poor starts are more easily attributable to a car issue when Gasly has the same problem. The contact with Sainz in Bahrain was Sainz's fault in my opinion. Certainly these errors are much less significant than Hamilton's in Germany and Austria.

Is Gasly terrible or Max brilliant? When the gap between them is that large, it has to be both.


Monaco was costly. He earned a penalty for hitting Bottas & dropped points. That's his fault.
GB was messy even before Vettel hit him. He couldn't pass Leclerc during the first stint. He had to do it via the pits. He then threw away the position by running wide and allowing Leclerc to overtake him on track,
The botched starts, ok, i can accept they are due to the car. Despite the win Germany, his race was scrappy. Like most drivers, he had a big spin, plus he had a couple of "moments" chasing Bottas.

Like Hamilton, he's had a couple of "messy" races. The biggest difference is that Hamilton isn't beating Bottas by the margins Verstappen is beating Gasly. But then, this needs to be balanced against Gasly being a somewhat worse driver than Bottas..


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:41 am 
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j man wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
j man wrote:
Max Verstappen - Faultless so far, reminds me of Alonso in 2012.
Lewis Hamilton - Having a superb season, but messy races in Austria and Germany have taken the shine off it slightly.
Daniel Ricciardo - Is smashing Hulkenberg, contrary to my expectations.
Carlos Sainz - Clear best of the rest in the points table, and consistently makes up positions in races.
Kimi Raikkonen - His experience is really showing, scoring points in the majority of races. 31 points to Giovinazzi's 1 speaks volumes.
George Russell - Not much more he can do in that car other than beat Kubica, which he is doing handily. Has made very few errors.
Sebastian Vettel - Just about outperforming Leclerc overall, but he can do better than this.
Sergio Perez - Doing as well as ever, it's just that the car is much worse this year.
Charles Leclerc - A little disappointing. The speed is there but so is the occasional mistake.
Lando Norris - Qualifies well but has less than half the points of his team mate.
Valtteri Bottas - Started well and has faded since. A car that has been untouchable in a few races this season has flattered his points total somewhat.
Daniil Kvyat - Having a decent if unspectacular year. Not quite enough to justify a second stint in the senior team though.
Nico Hulkenberg - A bit disappointing, I thought he'd give Ricciardo something to think about. Threw away what could have been a great result in Germany.
Alex Albon - Solid first season, but seems to be a tad slower than Kvyat.
Kevin Magnussen - Inconsistent as ever. Needs to stop hitting his team mate.
Romain Grosjean - Inconsistent as ever. Needs to stop hitting his team mate.
Lance Stroll - Atrocious in qualifying. His only really good drive was in Canada, other than that he's largely benefited from others' misfortune or from strategy gambles.
Robert Kubica - Clearly not the driver he was before his accident, but the car and a strong team mate are making him look worse than he is in my opinion.
Antonio Giovinazzi - Well off the pace of his team mate. Only 1 point for the season is not enough to justify him keeping the seat.
Pierre Gasly - How many times has Verstappen lapped him in races this year?


I struggle to understand how Ricciardo is 10 positions higher than Hulkenberg. Qualifying is the only area where he is clearly outperforming him. They have both overall been rather poor this year. Ricciardo retired in australia, clumsily hit hulkenberg in bahrain, did one of the must stupid mistakes of any driver this year when revering into kvyat in Baku. His pace looks better than Hulkenberg, but the amount of mistakes this year from him is really really bad. I couldn't even rate him in the top 10. Even in france he did 2 things near the end of the race that gave him 2 penalties. It seems hulkenberg is getting judged from his recent crash in Germany from what you have written. Ricciardo has had far more silly crashes or breaking the rules than Hulkenberg. I think I would rate Ricciardo ahead because of his obvious pace advantage, but certainly both out of the top 10.

I also think Bottas has been judged a bit harshly. Not even in the top 10 when he has had as many poles as Hamilton and actually has been a challenge in qualifying and in a few races too. Given Hamilton's reputation, that is pretty impressive. Bottas crashed in germany, yes, hamilton very nearly did and many others crashed out too. and Bottas's latest race was basically no worse than Hamilton in Austria. It is clear that Hamilton has much more speed than Bottas but I just can't see how over half the grid has been better than him this year. Even good drivers like Vettel and Leclerc have had at least as many poor races as Bottas. Leclerc has been at fault for retiring twice as well as crashing in qualifying.

Sorry for commenting in this way most of the rest of your ratings is about where i would have them, but i just don't really understand why there is such a large gap based on all of this season for these 2 pairs of team mates. I feel that is is basing it a bit too much on recent occurrences.

That's fine, we all have our own opinions.

I feel that when people put these lists together there is not enough distinction made between car and driver. Ricciardo has been made to look worse because the car is poor, but from my point of view he is beating Hulkenberg much more comfortably than I expected. I rate Hulkenberg highly and thought he'd cause a bit of an upset this year. Ricciardo did start the year slowly and the Baku incident was admittedly silly, but overall he's come into that team and made it his own. Perhaps the best reflection of how he has performed is the the rumours that Renault are looking at replacing Hulkenberg, who did so well for them last season but now they feel is not performing to the new benchmark that has been set.

As for Bottas, as I said I think the superiority of the Mercedes has covered up some of his weaker performances this year. I mean races like France and Silverstone where he was nowhere near Hamilton's pace in the race yet came 2nd just because Mercedes had a comfortable gap to the other teams (although he made hard work of it in France). It was the sort of performance that in the previous two years would have yielded 4th or 5th. I agree that Vettel and Leclerc haven't performed that much better than Bottas has, that's why I haven't listed them particularly highly either and even stated Leclerc has been a little disappointing.

The margins here are very fine though, in a lot of cases you really have to nitpick to put one driver above another. I could probably justifiably re-arrange the top half of my list (aside from the top two) into any order.


Regarding Bottas, I have noticed his weaker performances. Barhain, france and Canada. i couldn't count silvestone. Beating Hamilton in qualifying there and keeping him behind the way he did was pretty special. Strategy (which was Hamilton's choise and he got it right) was what got him ahead. He was much quicker, but not quick enough to be able to get by without a different strategy. Bottas IMO wasn't poor here like he was in the others i mentioned, Hamilton's extreme pace was basically making Bottas look worse. And I think that has been the case with several races this year. The last 2 are a but difficult to judge really. Bottas looked tidy in germany until a tiny mistake with a terrible outcome then in Hungary looked on excellent form in qualifying then just lost a few positions and Leclerc undid his race from that.

The point you make there that I have highlighted pretty much makes me understand your reasoning if they are that close - or a bit to difficult to judge. I myself as i mentioned above am really struggling to decide what order to put drivers behind Verstappen and Hamilton and the bottom 10. To em they are rather hard to place and i just disagree with myself wherever i put them :D


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:52 am 
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Todd wrote:
I think Raikkonen has been a true standout this season, and has provided enough reason to believe that it isn't the drivers' faults that Ferrari has failed to win a title in recent years.


I rather think that the Alfa is a strong contender for 4th best car this season But Giovinazzi is under-performing.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:15 pm 
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I have not made a list but I would say Max is definitely the best. Other stand out performance have been by Sainz and Kimi for their consistent performance. I think Antonio is pretty good driver. His qualifying is good and has some good races. But since midfiled is so competitive little mistakes can have big impact on results. Same with Norris, he is not that bad but if you look at points he is quite far off from Sainz.

Gasly and Renault drivers are having a shocker. Only few good races so far. Kubica sadly is the weakest driver I think.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:06 pm 
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Just found this... Image source: Reddit

The dominance from Kimi is I.N.S.A.N.E!!

He is without a doubt the best driver on the grid and actually it isn't even close. I doubt any of you could argue this point with me successively so don't try and don't even think of embarrassing yourselves.

1. Kimi

2-20. The rest

That's my final mid-season driver rankings.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:05 pm 
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Invade wrote:
Just found this... Image source: Reddit

The dominance from Kimi is I.N.S.A.N.E!!

He is without a doubt the best driver on the grid and actually it isn't even close. I doubt any of you could argue this point with me successively so don't try and don't even think of embarrassing yourselves.

1. Kimi

2-20. The rest

That's my final mid-season driver rankings.

There is a major mathematical error commited by whatever person made that table and you should instantly change your list to being: 1: Kubica, 2-20: The rest.

This is how that table should look:













TeamPercentageDriver 1PointsDriver 2Points
WilliamsInfinityKubica1Russell0
Alfa3000Raikkonen31Giovinazzi1
Red Bull187Verstappen181Gasly63
McLaren142Sainz58Norris24
Haas125Magnussen18Grosjean8
Toro Rosso69Kyvat27Albon16
Racing Point38Stroll18Perez13
Mercedes33Hamilton250Bottas188
Renault29Ricciardo22Hulkenberg17
Ferrari18Vettel156Leclerc132


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:06 pm 
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Invade wrote:
Just found this... Image source: Reddit

The dominance from Kimi is I.N.S.A.N.E!!

He is without a doubt the best driver on the grid and actually it isn't even close. I doubt any of you could argue this point with me successively so don't try and don't even think of embarrassing yourselves.

1. Kimi

2-20. The rest

That's my final mid-season driver rankings.

Surely Kubica should be top, is not anything divided by zero infinity?

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2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 26th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:23 pm 
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I actually find this quite hard once you get Hamilton and Verstappen out the way. I'd say Norris is showing up well and Russel impresses me but I don't know useful Kubica is as benchmark. Other than that I would't say anyone is really standing out.

Sainz - always rated him and he;s doing well but equally he's being matched by a rookie
Leclerc - quick but a long way from being the complete article
Vettel - meh
Ricciardo - hard to say but not exactly thrashing The Hulk
Kimi - doing a great job but again potentially a teammate that's falttering him and to be fair he's always been a reliable points scorer

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:47 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Invade wrote:
Just found this... Image source: Reddit

The dominance from Kimi is I.N.S.A.N.E!!

He is without a doubt the best driver on the grid and actually it isn't even close. I doubt any of you could argue this point with me successively so don't try and don't even think of embarrassing yourselves.

1. Kimi

2-20. The rest

That's my final mid-season driver rankings.

There is a major mathematical error commited by whatever person made that table and you should instantly change your list to being: 1: Kubica, 2-20: The rest.

This is how that table should look:













TeamPercentageDriver 1PointsDriver 2Points
WilliamsInfinityKubica1Russell0
Alfa3000Raikkonen31Giovinazzi1
Red Bull187Verstappen181Gasly63
McLaren142Sainz58Norris24
Haas125Magnussen18Grosjean8
Toro Rosso69Kyvat27Albon16
Racing Point38Stroll18Perez13
Mercedes33Hamilton250Bottas188
Renault29Ricciardo22Hulkenberg17
Ferrari18Vettel156Leclerc132



pokerman wrote:
Invade wrote:
Just found this... Image source: Reddit

The dominance from Kimi is I.N.S.A.N.E!!

He is without a doubt the best driver on the grid and actually it isn't even close. I doubt any of you could argue this point with me successively so don't try and don't even think of embarrassing yourselves.

1. Kimi

2-20. The rest

That's my final mid-season driver rankings.

Surely Kubica should be top, is not anything divided by zero infinity?



Guys, that's why it's so funny. It sticks out like a sore thumb with a spotlight cast over it. :o


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:54 pm 
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Invade wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Invade wrote:
Just found this... Image source: Reddit

The dominance from Kimi is I.N.S.A.N.E!!

He is without a doubt the best driver on the grid and actually it isn't even close. I doubt any of you could argue this point with me successively so don't try and don't even think of embarrassing yourselves.

1. Kimi

2-20. The rest

That's my final mid-season driver rankings.

There is a major mathematical error commited by whatever person made that table and you should instantly change your list to being: 1: Kubica, 2-20: The rest.

This is how that table should look:













TeamPercentageDriver 1PointsDriver 2Points
WilliamsInfinityKubica1Russell0
Alfa3000Raikkonen31Giovinazzi1
Red Bull187Verstappen181Gasly63
McLaren142Sainz58Norris24
Haas125Magnussen18Grosjean8
Toro Rosso69Kyvat27Albon16
Racing Point38Stroll18Perez13
Mercedes33Hamilton250Bottas188
Renault29Ricciardo22Hulkenberg17
Ferrari18Vettel156Leclerc132



pokerman wrote:
Invade wrote:
Just found this... Image source: Reddit

The dominance from Kimi is I.N.S.A.N.E!!

He is without a doubt the best driver on the grid and actually it isn't even close. I doubt any of you could argue this point with me successively so don't try and don't even think of embarrassing yourselves.

1. Kimi

2-20. The rest

That's my final mid-season driver rankings.

Surely Kubica should be top, is not anything divided by zero infinity?



Guys, that's why it's so funny. It sticks out like a sore thumb with a spotlight cast over it. :o

I think you overestimate the mathematical knowledge of the average person, and the people's attention to detail when error checking. I'd also argue that coming up with a foolproof metric that makes Kubica #1 is even funnier.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:12 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Invade wrote:
Just found this... Image source: Reddit

The dominance from Kimi is I.N.S.A.N.E!!

He is without a doubt the best driver on the grid and actually it isn't even close. I doubt any of you could argue this point with me successively so don't try and don't even think of embarrassing yourselves.

1. Kimi

2-20. The rest

That's my final mid-season driver rankings.

Surely Kubica should be top, is not anything divided by zero infinity?

No a division by zero is undefined, not infinity.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:47 am 
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Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Invade wrote:
Just found this... Image source: Reddit

The dominance from Kimi is I.N.S.A.N.E!!

He is without a doubt the best driver on the grid and actually it isn't even close. I doubt any of you could argue this point with me successively so don't try and don't even think of embarrassing yourselves.

1. Kimi

2-20. The rest

That's my final mid-season driver rankings.

Surely Kubica should be top, is not anything divided by zero infinity?

No a division by zero is undefined, not infinity.


This is the maths equivalent of a semantic argument. Strictly speaking, division by zero is not allowed because allowing division by zero alongside the other rules allows people to create contradictions with the other axioms. However, under the mechanism being described by the reddit poster, where the purpose of the table is to show the proportion of extra points the lead driver has scored relative to their team mate, it is both appropriate and accurate to describe it as being 'infinity'. Infinity itself is not a number and there are many different types of infinity. This would be one of the smaller infinities on the planet, dwarfed in comparison to other infinities, such as the largest constructable infinity, or the scale of just how pedantic many F1 fans can be.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:38 am 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Invade wrote:
Just found this... Image source: Reddit

The dominance from Kimi is I.N.S.A.N.E!!

He is without a doubt the best driver on the grid and actually it isn't even close. I doubt any of you could argue this point with me successively so don't try and don't even think of embarrassing yourselves.

1. Kimi

2-20. The rest

That's my final mid-season driver rankings.

Surely Kubica should be top, is not anything divided by zero infinity?

No a division by zero is undefined, not infinity.


This is the maths equivalent of a semantic argument. Strictly speaking, division by zero is not allowed because allowing division by zero alongside the other rules allows people to create contradictions with the other axioms. However, under the mechanism being described by the reddit poster, where the purpose of the table is to show the proportion of extra points the lead driver has scored relative to their team mate, it is both appropriate and accurate to describe it as being 'infinity'. Infinity itself is not a number and there are many different types of infinity. This would be one of the smaller infinities on the planet, dwarfed in comparison to other infinities, such as the largest constructable infinity, or the scale of just how pedantic many F1 fans can be.

I wonder when Kubica starts a race he shouts to himself "too infinity and beyond". :)

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:39 am 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Invade wrote:
Just found this... Image source: Reddit

The dominance from Kimi is I.N.S.A.N.E!!

He is without a doubt the best driver on the grid and actually it isn't even close. I doubt any of you could argue this point with me successively so don't try and don't even think of embarrassing yourselves.

1. Kimi

2-20. The rest

That's my final mid-season driver rankings.

Surely Kubica should be top, is not anything divided by zero infinity?

No a division by zero is undefined, not infinity.


This is the maths equivalent of a semantic argument. Strictly speaking, division by zero is not allowed because allowing division by zero alongside the other rules allows people to create contradictions with the other axioms. However, under the mechanism being described by the reddit poster, where the purpose of the table is to show the proportion of extra points the lead driver has scored relative to their team mate, it is both appropriate and accurate to describe it as being 'infinity'. Infinity itself is not a number and there are many different types of infinity. This would be one of the smaller infinities on the planet, dwarfed in comparison to other infinities, such as the largest constructable infinity, or the scale of just how pedantic many F1 fans can be.

I wasn't being pedantic, just making an argument why mathematically Kubica wouldn't necessarily be on top of the list (although the 100% rating he had isn't quite correct either).

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:51 pm 
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I'm simply trying to absorb that, having watched Russel's performances thus far this season, I find Kubica to be an infinitely better driver in comparison.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:20 pm 
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I love where this thread has headed.

What are your thoughts on the Media rankings?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:35 pm 
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Well, I thought I may as well share the ratings from a site I regularly use. racefans.net (previously F1 Fanatic)

1: Verstappen
2: Hamilton
3: Sainz
4: Leclerc
5: Bottas
6: Raikkonen
7: Vettel
8: Ricciardo
9: Norris
10: Russell
11: Perez
12: Albon
13: Magnussen
14: Hulkenberg
15: Kvyyat
16: Grosjean
17: Giovinazzi
18: Gasly
19: Stroll
20: Kubica

https://www.racefans.net/2019/08/19/201 ... one-20-11/
https://www.racefans.net/2019/08/22/201 ... -one-10-4/
https://www.racefans.net/2019/08/23/201 ... t-one-3-1/

When I look at this, the main thing that gets to me is seeing Sainz so high up. Has he really been good enough to be the best driver this year after the top two, who clearly have done far better than the others to me. Sainz IMO has not had much of a challenge. other than being beaten more often than not in qualifying. Then when it comes to the race, Noris often slips back either due to his inexperience and being cautious, or bad luck. Again, this is my opinion, but the McLaren looks like it could well be very easily the 4th best car this year. And I think it is best of the rest by a reasonable margin at most tracks. Sainz is certainly being solid, but he's not really getting challenged. When he did with Verstappen in Bahrain, i thought he looked rather clumsy, which I personally think he often is. in 2017, he caused more retirements than any other driver.
This season is solid for Sainz, but really not that impressive IMO.

Other surprises in this list is the distance between Hulkenberg and ricciardo. There overall this year if you don't just look at there pace been a tiny difference in their performance. Ricciardo has been slightly better, but barely. I don't think Hulkenberg should be much higher up, more like Ricciardo lower and both out of the top 10.

Leclerc this much higher than Vettel? Not sure.... I think some could justify a reason to place Leclerc ahead, but i don't realyl see it that way. leclerc has lost 15 points in Bahrain and you could add on a few more for the teams other mistakes, but even with this, he would still be right with Vettel, not obviously better. Leclerc's race ending mistakes have looked poor. Maybe not that bad in Germany given how many of the others did similar but the way he ended his race in Monaco was just plain stupid. He should have recovered in the way verstappen did when he once made a mistake in qualifying. Leclerc easily could have got 7th or 8th if he just had some patience... Desperate to lunge past other cars rather than waiting and doing a longer run and just keeping calm. His car was so much quicker that once they pitted, he could easily have done what he needed to get ahead. Leclerc should have also learnt from Hamilton in 2017 now I think about it too. It doesn't mean he should have driven in the manner he did.
Both Leclerc and Vettel ahev had a mix of outstanding and very poor moments. And i think they have overall been about equal in performance. But one thing I think is that Leclerc doesn't look as solid as last year. He's making big mistakes in a top team compared to his rookie season in a worse car. I find the fact he's getting ranked higher on this site at this stage of the season than last year a bit odd really.

I also don't agree with Albon beign rated better than Kvyat. I know Kvyat was somewhat lucky with his result in Germany, but out of the on track fights we have seen them have this year, if i am correct, we have seen Kvyat get by Albon or successfully defend him significantly more than the other way round. They are both very good and I would have Kvyat just ahead of Albon.

I've already gone into detail both on this forum about how i just can't understand how the vast majority seem to be raking Grosjean behind Magnussen. This site has done the same, and by several positions.I think way to much of Grosjean's performance is based on him beign known to crash. He's had such awful luck and it seems like he's maybe being expected to crash but we just haven't seen it because he'as already had to retire for some other reason. Out of all the races we have seen them both finish, Grosjean finished 5/6 of them ahead. 2 of them being over 60 seconds ahead with magnussen not even beating Russell in a Williams. Magnussen's worst performances have been just shockingly bad. Grosjean hasn't even had any bad crashes this year. At least none that have badly effected his result. I simply don't understand how anyone can vote magnussen ahead, but it seems virtually everybody has. The times he's been performing well are when Grosjean has suffered issues which were not his fault, and in at least half of his 6 retirements, he was not far off Magnussen at all. I think that he was even ahead in 1 or 2 of them before his problems started.





1: Verstappen
2: Hamilton

3: Raikkonen
4: Sainz
5: Bottas
6: Vettel
7: Leclerc
8: Norris
9: Russell
10: Kvyat
11: Albon
12: Perez
13: Ricciardo
14: Hulkenberg

15: Stroll
16: Grosjean
17: Gasly
18: Magnussen
19: Giovinazzi

20: Kubica


After all that I said about Sainz being too high, seems like i haven't changed it much now I think about it. But the thing is, I read my own list and criticize it :P Now to me it looks like Kimi is too high. but both him and Sainz have had about the most solid seasons of all drivers. I still think Bottas has had his best start to a season in his career despite the 2 recent races. He's still challenging the best qualifier in history in these sessions and has just as many poles this season and the average gap is barely anything. In the races, he isn't as good, but at least has 2 wins and I think it is more that Hamilton is just mighty that sometimes makes him look well off. I agree he sometimes does underperform, but I think it is due to Hamilton that it seems like he is worse than he is. From Vettel and going down on my list, I think that looks about right. But doubt others will. There are just some rankings that with certain drivers I think are very off. Ricciardo particularly this season has been very over rated. He has made some really stupid mistakes and has collected more penalty points than any other driver. And I think 4 of them were just in 1 race.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:36 pm 
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The problem with having Sainz so high is that I think you can't have him more than a place ahead of Norris. Norris has only really suffered from bad luck relative to Sainz - in terms of pace he's been right there, and ahead in quali. That to me implies that the car is actually very good, and while both Macca drivers are delivering the goods they aren't working miracles.

Of course, I'm not sure who I would put in third place -- behind the clear top two it's all a little confusing.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:03 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
The problem with having Sainz so high is that I think you can't have him more than a place ahead of Norris. Norris has only really suffered from bad luck relative to Sainz - in terms of pace he's been right there, and ahead in quali. That to me implies that the car is actually very good, and while both Macca drivers are delivering the goods they aren't working miracles.

Of course, I'm not sure who I would put in third place -- behind the clear top two it's all a little confusing.

Yea i feel i have been harsh on Noris maybe. But I really think he has been a bit too cautious on the opening laps resulting in losing positions. But yes relative to Sainz, his pace is maybe similar. Maybe i should have moved hima ahead of Leclerc or and maybe vettel too.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 1:04 am 
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What's clear is that Hamilton is still performing to a consistently high level and Max has emerged as really the only other driver on the grid to perform to a similar level on a consistent basis. Vettel still has his occasional nightmare and Charles has been wildly inconsistent. Daniel has also had ups and downs with his individual performance and Valteri started very strong and has remained very strong in qualifying but his race performances have fallen off considerably in the last several rounds.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:40 pm 
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The fact that the guy comfortably in 3rd is getting matched by an often out qualified by a teenage rookie really shows the low quality of driving performances this season.

If Sainz was driving a Racing Point and getting matched by Norris he'd be getting panned.


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