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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 5:24 pm 
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Some people have had an issue with it for years and years.

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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 5:32 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Pokemon, your stance is simply staggering.
:lol:

pokerman wrote:
I think people in general care more about who wins the race than who happens to finish 9th, 10th and 11th, if you are about to be lapped then you have lost the right to compete against the leading car(s).
I think you are right about people in general. But they don't define the rules of the sport, and neither do those lucky enough to end up in fast cars.

Let me contrast "if you are about to be lapped then you have lost the right to compete against the leading car(s)" with 'if the leader can't get past a backmarker, he has no right to defend against an overtake attempt by the P2 driver'. Why do you think a backmarker has fewer rights than the driver in P1?

A lot of fans want to see more overtaking, in cancelling the current blue flag rules, they would instantly get it back.

Neither do people on forums either, the rules set out are what i agree with.

Given what you said the notion as I suspected is simply another why to try and spice up the racing with forumers having become bored with the Mercedes dominance.
You're right, fans on forums don't make the rules. But some of them, like myself, have known the system of lapping as it used to be, and who liked that natural way of influencing the results far more than artificialities such as the current blue flag rules. I believe it was Senna who started whinging about backmarkers not jumping out of the way at the mere sight of the feared yellow helmet. Perhaps, like Hamilton, he would have thought differently if he had actually ever been one of the monkeys at the back.

But the main point I would like you to understand, is that it isn't about spicing up the racing*. It is about racing (including racing backmarkers) and about respect. As I said before, given that the front runners can use DRS on the backmarkers every single time, I don't see any reason why we should give them an extra advantage that ruins more than one backmarker's race, every single race.

* If there's anything I dislike almost as much as outright cheating, it is the misguided urge to spice things up.

I think you will find that drivers who have benefited in the past with blue flags have no problems whatsoever in moving over for the leaders and never complain, Alonso and Button for instance, also out of interest i never heard Verstappen complain or be a problem for the leaders.

Young drivers, struggling to perform, perhaps we hear some of them complain, maybe?

Backmarkers should not be able to influence the outcome of the race, certain shenanigans could easily come into play.

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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 5:59 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I think people in general care more about who wins the race than who happens to finish 9th, 10th and 11th, if you are about to be lapped then you have lost the right to compete against the leading car(s).

why?

When i watch bike racing i want to watch the leaders more so than the midfield runners, sometimes if the racing at the front is spread out it's nice to watch some racing further down the field, but overall I'm more interested with who finishes 1st, 2nd and 3rd rather 7th, 8th and 9th, i would be very surprised if I'm in the minority on this one?

But that doesn't explain why you should lose the right to compete, though?

You don't have the right to compete because you are a lap behind, it's a simple as that.

Also claims that it would make the racing more exciting as the leaders fight tooth and nail with backmarkers possibly even colliding with them perhaps goes down the same route as reverse grid racing as far as i'm concerned, just a case of people wanting to spice up the racing.


So the way I understand your stance on this issue and what rights one has while racing, you are basically saying that each car should be retired as soon as they get lapped because they lost all rights of competing and once the leader passes you know there is many more cars coming. This does not sound like something I like to watch.

I agree that the blue flag situation has to change a little bit I truly think that those blue flags have to be shown only when the lapping car is immediately behind the to be lapped car.


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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 6:36 am 
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You come up across a backmarker near the end of the race who's just had some new softs thrown on, race leader is on used mediums. Lap time difference is .4 a lap. The leaders can't get past on his own merits due to relatively poor drove onto the back straights on his tyres. Sits there behind the backmarker, compromising his strategy, he is caught and passed by a competitor on a different tyre strategy.

The tyre strategy/team association/individual driver aspects of all the backmarkers would be something the leading teams would have to start considering in their race strategies. For example, coming out behind anybody at certain tracks on different tyres would be an issue.

Of course that's if you scrapped blue flags which I think is not a viable notion. Rather maybe wave them a little later? I suppose drivers want them waving asap is because with aero these days they are effected by the car in front within 2 seconds. If we want them to get past more on their own merits we have to give them the tools to do it. Hence the current blue flag rules matching the aero regs


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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 7:32 am 
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Andy2402 wrote:
You come up across a backmarker near the end of the race who's just had some new softs thrown on, race leader is on used mediums. Lap time difference is .4 a lap. The leaders can't get past on his own merits due to relatively poor drove onto the back straights on his tyres. Sits there behind the backmarker, compromising his strategy, he is caught and passed by a competitor on a different tyre strategy.

The tyre strategy/team association/individual driver aspects of all the backmarkers would be something the leading teams would have to start considering in their race strategies. For example, coming out behind anybody at certain tracks on different tyres would be an issue.

Of course that's if you scrapped blue flags which I think is not a viable notion. Rather maybe wave them a little later? I suppose drivers want them waving asap is because with aero these days they are effected by the car in front within 2 seconds. If we want them to get past more on their own merits we have to give them the tools to do it. Hence the current blue flag rules matching the aero regs

You're a backmarker who's been fighting a battle with a competitor all race and within sight of scoring the first points of the season, which will potentially translate into millions for your team. Suddenly, blue flags are being frantically waved at you and you have three short corners to pull over or suffer consequences. You do so at a spot which is far from ideal and your competitor streaks past triumphantly in the slipstream of the front runner. All your good work undone through no fault of your own just because the leader get a royal pass.

I don't agree that applying the blue flags differently would result in chaos for the front runners. It worked for years without major issues and continues to do so in lower series. Blue flags themselves are not the issue: it's the current interpretation which is contentious. A backmarker should only have to move over when it doesn't compromise his race. The three corners addition is unnecessary and unfair


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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 8:18 am 
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Andy2402 wrote:
Of course that's if you scrapped blue flags which I think is not a viable notion.
It was viable for some 40 years. What happened to racing?

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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 8:54 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Andy2402 wrote:
You come up across a backmarker near the end of the race who's just had some new softs thrown on, race leader is on used mediums. Lap time difference is .4 a lap. The leaders can't get past on his own merits due to relatively poor drove onto the back straights on his tyres. Sits there behind the backmarker, compromising his strategy, he is caught and passed by a competitor on a different tyre strategy.

The tyre strategy/team association/individual driver aspects of all the backmarkers would be something the leading teams would have to start considering in their race strategies. For example, coming out behind anybody at certain tracks on different tyres would be an issue.

Of course that's if you scrapped blue flags which I think is not a viable notion. Rather maybe wave them a little later? I suppose drivers want them waving asap is because with aero these days they are effected by the car in front within 2 seconds. If we want them to get past more on their own merits we have to give them the tools to do it. Hence the current blue flag rules matching the aero regs

You're a backmarker who's been fighting a battle with a competitor all race and within sight of scoring the first points of the season, which will potentially translate into millions for your team. Suddenly, blue flags are being frantically waved at you and you have three short corners to pull over or suffer consequences. You do so at a spot which is far from ideal and your competitor streaks past triumphantly in the slipstream of the front runner. All your good work undone through no fault of your own just because the leader get a royal pass.

I don't agree that applying the blue flags differently would result in chaos for the front runners. It worked for years without major issues and continues to do so in lower series. Blue flags themselves are not the issue: it's the current interpretation which is contentious. A backmarker should only have to move over when it doesn't compromise his race. The three corners addition is unnecessary and unfair


My original post detailed the idea that something could be brought in to prevent other backmarkers benefiting other another ie. They can't follow on pass right after a front runner. It isn't completely fool proof I know.

I just watched the last few laps of austria this year, the back markers literally jumped out the way of Nico and Lewis. Are we saying in that situation wed be happy for the backmarkers actions to determine the outcome of that battle?

Fiki I don't know about 40 years ago, I'm trying to discuss the merits of either approach in today's formula which is a lot different I imagine than the formula 40 years ago, no?


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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 9:05 am 
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Andy2402 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Andy2402 wrote:
You come up across a backmarker near the end of the race who's just had some new softs thrown on, race leader is on used mediums. Lap time difference is .4 a lap. The leaders can't get past on his own merits due to relatively poor drove onto the back straights on his tyres. Sits there behind the backmarker, compromising his strategy, he is caught and passed by a competitor on a different tyre strategy.

The tyre strategy/team association/individual driver aspects of all the backmarkers would be something the leading teams would have to start considering in their race strategies. For example, coming out behind anybody at certain tracks on different tyres would be an issue.

Of course that's if you scrapped blue flags which I think is not a viable notion. Rather maybe wave them a little later? I suppose drivers want them waving asap is because with aero these days they are effected by the car in front within 2 seconds. If we want them to get past more on their own merits we have to give them the tools to do it. Hence the current blue flag rules matching the aero regs

You're a backmarker who's been fighting a battle with a competitor all race and within sight of scoring the first points of the season, which will potentially translate into millions for your team. Suddenly, blue flags are being frantically waved at you and you have three short corners to pull over or suffer consequences. You do so at a spot which is far from ideal and your competitor streaks past triumphantly in the slipstream of the front runner. All your good work undone through no fault of your own just because the leader get a royal pass.

I don't agree that applying the blue flags differently would result in chaos for the front runners. It worked for years without major issues and continues to do so in lower series. Blue flags themselves are not the issue: it's the current interpretation which is contentious. A backmarker should only have to move over when it doesn't compromise his race. The three corners addition is unnecessary and unfair


My original post detailed the idea that something could be brought in to prevent other backmarkers benefiting other another ie. They can't follow on pass right after a front runner. It isn't completely fool proof I know.

I just watched the last few laps of austria this year, the back markers literally jumped out the way of Nico and Lewis. Are we saying in that situation wed be happy for the backmarkers actions to determine the outcome of that battle?

Fiki I don't know about 40 years ago, I'm trying to discuss the merits of either approach in today's formula which is a lot different I imagine than the formula 40 years ago, no?

tbh, I find it no different to the crappy dissolving tyres, DRS and mandatory pit stops we have to endure now: it's just another thing thrown at them that the drivers have to deal with.

I think back markers shouldn't interfere unduly with the front runners, but I also feel quite strongly that front runners shouldn't interfere with a back marker's race, either. I'm happy for back markers to wave a front runner through, but not for them to be forced to do so at a time when it may compromise their own race. Otherwise they are simply another obstacle the front runners have to overcome and it should be down to their skill to be able to negotiate back markers successfully without being compromised themselves. I just don't agree with the principle that they should jump out of the way. For years blue flags were advisory and by and large they were complied with (and still are in the majority of series). I don't see why in F1 they should mean "pull over regardless."


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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 10:11 am 
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Andy2402 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Andy2402 wrote:
I don't see any easy solution, I agree it can massively mess up racing further back in the point, we see at least once a race another takes advantage of the blue flags.

Perhaps ban overtakes on cars which are being overtaken by the leaders, for say a lap ?
Yes, let's disadvantage the backmarkers a bit more than we already do. That will definitely improve the racing no end...


The purpose of that proposal would be to prevent instances where there are 2+ back markers, one of which has his line/racing significantly hindered when a front runner passes/is let past etc, leading to the other back markers (direct competitors) passing him/getting a run.

That won't stop back markers losing time as they do now but at least it would stop them getting mugged by another car as a result of compromising themselves to adhere to Blue flags

The only issue I can see with this is that cars are lapped that often , there wouldn't be many laps where cars could legally pass in the second half of the race

Any actual thoughts on that, or a viable solution perhaps ?
I had overlooked this post, my apologies Andy. The way you describe it, I see both the intention and the benefit, and I agree with the issue you identified.

But since I don't believe there was any need for the change in blue flag rules in the first place, to me the best change to make to it, is to revert to what blue flags meant before they were changed to their current definition.

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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 12:06 pm 
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Andy2402 wrote:
You come up across a backmarker near the end of the race who's just had some new softs thrown on, race leader is on used mediums. Lap time difference is .4 a lap. The leaders can't get past on his own merits due to relatively poor drove onto the back straights on his tyres. Sits there behind the backmarker, compromising his strategy, he is caught and passed by a competitor on a different tyre strategy.

The tyre strategy/team association/individual driver aspects of all the backmarkers would be something the leading teams would have to start considering in their race strategies. For example, coming out behind anybody at certain tracks on different tyres would be an issue.

Of course that's if you scrapped blue flags which I think is not a viable notion. Rather maybe wave them a little later? I suppose drivers want them waving asap is because with aero these days they are effected by the car in front within 2 seconds. If we want them to get past more on their own merits we have to give them the tools to do it. Hence the current blue flag rules matching the aero regs

The last paragraph highlights the problems the leaders can have.

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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 12:08 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
Andy2402 wrote:
Of course that's if you scrapped blue flags which I think is not a viable notion.
It was viable for some 40 years. What happened to racing?

They introduced downforce and silly tyres.

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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 4:18 pm 
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Bump

I thought I may as well do this as there seem to have been nearly 2 pages of discussion about blue flags in the "Mercedes must back Hamilton, now" thread and elsewhere too. That doesn't seem the right place to discuss them as much as we have been.

I've said what I think before but I don't think Massa did do anything wrong. Vettel was just in an unlucky position as it was easy for Massa to let Bottas through, but really difficult for Massa to allow Vettel through without having to really compromise his lap. It's not like Bottas didn't get held up by the lapped drivers earlier on. I'd say Sainz got in the way of Bottas much more than Massa did on Vettel. People just seem to think it affected Vettel more because it was right at the end. But I just don't think drivers that getting lapped should have to give up racing. I don't like what I've seen some people think. Saying if they have been lapped, they are effectively not in the same race. Well yes, they are a lap behind, but especially on short tracks, many of the lapped drivers will be well into the points and they should still be able to try and hold their position if they are close to their competitors I don't see why points at the front are any more important than points at the back.
Just a small amount of points can change things in the drivers and constructors championships hugely! Most of the time, it isn't the lapped drivers fault that they are that far behind. Just like Massa should have been well further ahead than he was. Does this mean that if one of the most dominant cars out there has an issue on the 1st lap, gets lapped and then totally recovers, they are not in the same race? I don't think so. They should still very easily be able to grab a few points.


Last edited by TheGiantHogweed on Sun May 07, 2017 5:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 4:22 pm 
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Edit.


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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 4:38 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Andy2402 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Andy2402 wrote:
You come up across a backmarker near the end of the race who's just had some new softs thrown on, race leader is on used mediums. Lap time difference is .4 a lap. The leaders can't get past on his own merits due to relatively poor drove onto the back straights on his tyres. Sits there behind the backmarker, compromising his strategy, he is caught and passed by a competitor on a different tyre strategy.

The tyre strategy/team association/individual driver aspects of all the backmarkers would be something the leading teams would have to start considering in their race strategies. For example, coming out behind anybody at certain tracks on different tyres would be an issue.

Of course that's if you scrapped blue flags which I think is not a viable notion. Rather maybe wave them a little later? I suppose drivers want them waving asap is because with aero these days they are effected by the car in front within 2 seconds. If we want them to get past more on their own merits we have to give them the tools to do it. Hence the current blue flag rules matching the aero regs

You're a backmarker who's been fighting a battle with a competitor all race and within sight of scoring the first points of the season, which will potentially translate into millions for your team. Suddenly, blue flags are being frantically waved at you and you have three short corners to pull over or suffer consequences. You do so at a spot which is far from ideal and your competitor streaks past triumphantly in the slipstream of the front runner. All your good work undone through no fault of your own just because the leader get a royal pass.

I don't agree that applying the blue flags differently would result in chaos for the front runners. It worked for years without major issues and continues to do so in lower series. Blue flags themselves are not the issue: it's the current interpretation which is contentious. A backmarker should only have to move over when it doesn't compromise his race. The three corners addition is unnecessary and unfair


My original post detailed the idea that something could be brought in to prevent other backmarkers benefiting other another ie. They can't follow on pass right after a front runner. It isn't completely fool proof I know.

I just watched the last few laps of austria this year, the back markers literally jumped out the way of Nico and Lewis. Are we saying in that situation wed be happy for the backmarkers actions to determine the outcome of that battle?

Fiki I don't know about 40 years ago, I'm trying to discuss the merits of either approach in today's formula which is a lot different I imagine than the formula 40 years ago, no?

tbh, I find it no different to the crappy dissolving tyres, DRS and mandatory pit stops we have to endure now: it's just another thing thrown at them that the drivers have to deal with.

I think back markers shouldn't interfere unduly with the front runners, but I also feel quite strongly that front runners shouldn't interfere with a back marker's race, either. I'm happy for back markers to wave a front runner through, but not for them to be forced to do so at a time when it may compromise their own race. Otherwise they are simply another obstacle the front runners have to overcome and it should be down to their skill to be able to negotiate back markers successfully without being compromised themselves. I just don't agree with the principle that they should jump out of the way. For years blue flags were advisory and by and large they were complied with (and still are in the majority of series). I don't see why in F1 they should mean "pull over regardless."

Tbf, it is much more important not to compromise the front runners race than those at the back. I don't see this changing anytime soon, and the smaller teams will have to continue to live with it.


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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 5:22 pm 
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I think the fear of doing away with the current blue flag rules is the possibility of race outcomes, or even the Championships being decided by a back marker getting in the way of a leading car.

Imagine the final race of this season - it's been a crazy back and forth battle for the WDC between Lewis and Seb and it's gone right down to the wire. Everyone is raving about how intense and dramatic the season has been. Possibly the best head to head for years. The gap in points is such that whoever finishes ahead in the race wins the title.

Thanks to an almighty qualy lap Lewis is on pole (a new outright lap record for the Yas Marina circuit), desipte the Ferrri having been quicker than the Merc all through free practise. Lewis is leads the race and looks set to clinch his third WDC in four years.

Approaching the second and final round of pitstops and Seb is sat right on Lewis' gearbox again. Approaching back markers, Merc decide to pull Lewis in and deny Seb the undercut. However one of the back markers (lets say its a Renault so no bias to either front-runner) pits on the same lap.

Due to a sticky wheel nut the Renault loses time in the pits and exits the pitlane less than two seconds ahead of Lewis.

Lewis covers the gap in the first sector, but due to the layout of the circuit he can't pass until he's come back around to the front straight and loses two seconds relative to Vettel.

Vettel pits the next lap, and exits the pits in front of Lewis. Proceeds to hold him off for the rest of the race and wins the title.

So, after 20 races all over the world producing (arguably) the most exciting WDC battle ever, and one driver and team doing everything right in the final race, it is decided by a back marker getting in the way at precisely the wrong time.

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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 5:28 pm 
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Ocon wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Andy2402 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Andy2402 wrote:
You come up across a backmarker near the end of the race who's just had some new softs thrown on, race leader is on used mediums. Lap time difference is .4 a lap. The leaders can't get past on his own merits due to relatively poor drove onto the back straights on his tyres. Sits there behind the backmarker, compromising his strategy, he is caught and passed by a competitor on a different tyre strategy.

The tyre strategy/team association/individual driver aspects of all the backmarkers would be something the leading teams would have to start considering in their race strategies. For example, coming out behind anybody at certain tracks on different tyres would be an issue.

Of course that's if you scrapped blue flags which I think is not a viable notion. Rather maybe wave them a little later? I suppose drivers want them waving asap is because with aero these days they are effected by the car in front within 2 seconds. If we want them to get past more on their own merits we have to give them the tools to do it. Hence the current blue flag rules matching the aero regs

You're a backmarker who's been fighting a battle with a competitor all race and within sight of scoring the first points of the season, which will potentially translate into millions for your team. Suddenly, blue flags are being frantically waved at you and you have three short corners to pull over or suffer consequences. You do so at a spot which is far from ideal and your competitor streaks past triumphantly in the slipstream of the front runner. All your good work undone through no fault of your own just because the leader get a royal pass.

I don't agree that applying the blue flags differently would result in chaos for the front runners. It worked for years without major issues and continues to do so in lower series. Blue flags themselves are not the issue: it's the current interpretation which is contentious. A backmarker should only have to move over when it doesn't compromise his race. The three corners addition is unnecessary and unfair


My original post detailed the idea that something could be brought in to prevent other backmarkers benefiting other another ie. They can't follow on pass right after a front runner. It isn't completely fool proof I know.

I just watched the last few laps of austria this year, the back markers literally jumped out the way of Nico and Lewis. Are we saying in that situation wed be happy for the backmarkers actions to determine the outcome of that battle?

Fiki I don't know about 40 years ago, I'm trying to discuss the merits of either approach in today's formula which is a lot different I imagine than the formula 40 years ago, no?

tbh, I find it no different to the crappy dissolving tyres, DRS and mandatory pit stops we have to endure now: it's just another thing thrown at them that the drivers have to deal with.

I think back markers shouldn't interfere unduly with the front runners, but I also feel quite strongly that front runners shouldn't interfere with a back marker's race, either. I'm happy for back markers to wave a front runner through, but not for them to be forced to do so at a time when it may compromise their own race. Otherwise they are simply another obstacle the front runners have to overcome and it should be down to their skill to be able to negotiate back markers successfully without being compromised themselves. I just don't agree with the principle that they should jump out of the way. For years blue flags were advisory and by and large they were complied with (and still are in the majority of series). I don't see why in F1 they should mean "pull over regardless."

Tbf, it is much more important not to compromise the front runners race than those at the back. I don't see this changing anytime soon, and the smaller teams will have to continue to live with it.

More important to whom, exactly? Back markers may disagree. You could have a case where the leader comes up to a pair fighting for 10th place, where that extra point may push that team ahead in the standings and be worth millions. They already have a tougher time of it than those at the front, since it's usually smaller, less well funded teams at the back, so why should their race be deemed less important?

As stated above, I'm happy for back markers to move over, but if they are in a mini battle themselves at the time the leaders arrive, then I don't think it's fair to expect them to sacrifice their own race. Blue flags should be advisory IMO and mean "pull over when convenient," not "jump out of the way like someone's just set you on fire."


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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 5:29 pm 
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Warnzee wrote:
I think the fear of doing away with the current blue flag rules is the possibility of race outcomes, or even the Championships being decided by a back marker getting in the way of a leading car.

Imagine the final race of this season - it's been a crazy back and forth battle for the WDC between Lewis and Seb and it's gone right down to the wire. Everyone is raving about how intense and dramatic the season has been. Possibly the best head to head for years. The gap in points is such that whoever finishes ahead in the race wins the title.

Thanks to an almighty qualy lap Lewis is on pole (a new outright lap record for the Yas Marina circuit), desipte the Ferrri having been quicker than the Merc all through free practise. Lewis is leads the race and looks set to clinch his third WDC in four years.

Approaching the second and final round of pitstops and Seb is sat right on Lewis' gearbox again. Approaching back markers, Merc decide to pull Lewis in and deny Seb the undercut. However one of the back markers (lets say its a Renault so no bias to either front-runner) pits on the same lap.

Due to a sticky wheel nut the Renault loses time in the pits and exits the pitlane less than two seconds ahead of Lewis.

Lewis covers the gap in the first sector, but due to the layout of the circuit he can't pass until he's come back around to the front straight and loses two seconds relative to Vettel.

Vettel pits the next lap, and exits the pits in front of Lewis. Proceeds to hold him off for the rest of the race and wins the title.

So, after 20 races all over the world producing (arguably) the most exciting WDC battle ever, and one driver and team doing everything right in the final race, it is decided by a back marker getting in the way at precisely the wrong time.


Honestly wouldn't bother me at all. You have to deal with whats in front of you.

Hamilton nearly lost the championship in 08 when a back marker pushed him wide an allowed Vettel to pass. I didn't think that was unfair then.


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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 9:15 pm 
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Warnzee wrote:
I think the fear of doing away with the current blue flag rules is the possibility of race outcomes, or even the Championships being decided by a back marker getting in the way of a leading car.

Imagine the final race of this season - it's been a crazy back and forth battle for the WDC between Lewis and Seb and it's gone right down to the wire. Everyone is raving about how intense and dramatic the season has been. Possibly the best head to head for years. The gap in points is such that whoever finishes ahead in the race wins the title.

Thanks to an almighty qualy lap Lewis is on pole (a new outright lap record for the Yas Marina circuit), desipte the Ferrri having been quicker than the Merc all through free practise. Lewis is leads the race and looks set to clinch his third WDC in four years.

Approaching the second and final round of pitstops and Seb is sat right on Lewis' gearbox again. Approaching back markers, Merc decide to pull Lewis in and deny Seb the undercut. However one of the back markers (lets say its a Renault so no bias to either front-runner) pits on the same lap.

Due to a sticky wheel nut the Renault loses time in the pits and exits the pitlane less than two seconds ahead of Lewis.

Lewis covers the gap in the first sector, but due to the layout of the circuit he can't pass until he's come back around to the front straight and loses two seconds relative to Vettel.

Vettel pits the next lap, and exits the pits in front of Lewis. Proceeds to hold him off for the rest of the race and wins the title.

So, after 20 races all over the world producing (arguably) the most exciting WDC battle ever, and one driver and team doing everything right in the final race, it is decided by a back marker getting in the way at precisely the wrong time.


I would prefer we do not use current driver names because fan bias comes into play and our emotions cloud our judgement.

But if this scenario unfolds between driver X and driver Z, it would be just fantastic.

Personally, I don't bow down to the Gods of Fairness when it comes to professional sports. All of us have witnessed major sporting events decided by incredibly weird stuff right at the end. Mansell blew a tire and his title in Australia. Earnhardt got a flat on the last lap and saw his goal of a Daytona 500 win evaporate. How many World Cup matches have been decided by the most insane antics?

First off, all athletes of this level make insane amounts of money, a loss would not put them out on the street to beg. Secondly, they make such huge sums because so many fans watch, and those fans clamor for action and excitement. If it was boring and sterile, less fans, less income for all in Formula One.

And to be honest, it it had to come down to the last race of the season to decide, neither party has any strong claim for the win, it comes down to a multitude of factors. Flat tires, safety car, a faulty component, there are a zillion factors that can come into play. And dealing with backmarkers, just like all those other factors are deciders. A roll of the dice.

All competitors pay entry fees, all of them have equal right to the track. IMO something akin to class distinction comes into play when all of a sudden someone decides that someone else is now a second class citizen.

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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 11:50 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
More important to whom, exactly? Back markers may disagree. You could have a case where the leader comes up to a pair fighting for 10th place, where that extra point may push that team ahead in the standings and be worth millions. They already have a tougher time of it than those at the front, since it's usually smaller, less well funded teams at the back, so why should their race be deemed less important?

As stated above, I'm happy for back markers to move over, but if they are in a mini battle themselves at the time the leaders arrive, then I don't think it's fair to expect them to sacrifice their own race. Blue flags should be advisory IMO and mean "pull over when convenient," not "jump out of the way like someone's just set you on fire."


More important to the top teams and most fans I would think as well. Yes it isn't fair to the backmarkers and a lot is on the line for them but it's the battle at the front people are intersted in. I can imagine most casual viewers(which are probably in the majority) couldn't care less about the backmarkers and their financial situation. Some probably don't even know their names.

I don't believe move over when convenient would work really. That could be basically any time they want to move. The teams fighting for the win wouldn't appreciate being held up for an extended period, nullifying the hard work they have done to get to this position.


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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 8:00 am 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Warnzee wrote:
I think the fear of doing away with the current blue flag rules is the possibility of race outcomes, or even the Championships being decided by a back marker getting in the way of a leading car.

Imagine the final race of this season - it's been a crazy back and forth battle for the WDC between Lewis and Seb and it's gone right down to the wire. Everyone is raving about how intense and dramatic the season has been. Possibly the best head to head for years. The gap in points is such that whoever finishes ahead in the race wins the title.

Thanks to an almighty qualy lap Lewis is on pole (a new outright lap record for the Yas Marina circuit), desipte the Ferrri having been quicker than the Merc all through free practise. Lewis is leads the race and looks set to clinch his third WDC in four years.

Approaching the second and final round of pitstops and Seb is sat right on Lewis' gearbox again. Approaching back markers, Merc decide to pull Lewis in and deny Seb the undercut. However one of the back markers (lets say its a Renault so no bias to either front-runner) pits on the same lap.

Due to a sticky wheel nut the Renault loses time in the pits and exits the pitlane less than two seconds ahead of Lewis.

Lewis covers the gap in the first sector, but due to the layout of the circuit he can't pass until he's come back around to the front straight and loses two seconds relative to Vettel.

Vettel pits the next lap, and exits the pits in front of Lewis. Proceeds to hold him off for the rest of the race and wins the title.

So, after 20 races all over the world producing (arguably) the most exciting WDC battle ever, and one driver and team doing everything right in the final race, it is decided by a back marker getting in the way at precisely the wrong time.


I would prefer we do not use current driver names because fan bias comes into play and our emotions cloud our judgement.

But if this scenario unfolds between driver X and driver Z, it would be just fantastic.

Personally, I don't bow down to the Gods of Fairness when it comes to professional sports. All of us have witnessed major sporting events decided by incredibly weird stuff right at the end. Mansell blew a tire and his title in Australia. Earnhardt got a flat on the last lap and saw his goal of a Daytona 500 win evaporate. How many World Cup matches have been decided by the most insane antics?

First off, all athletes of this level make insane amounts of money, a loss would not put them out on the street to beg. Secondly, they make such huge sums because so many fans watch, and those fans clamor for action and excitement. If it was boring and sterile, less fans, less income for all in Formula One.

And to be honest, it it had to come down to the last race of the season to decide, neither party has any strong claim for the win, it comes down to a multitude of factors. Flat tires, safety car, a faulty component, there are a zillion factors that can come into play. And dealing with backmarkers, just like all those other factors are deciders. A roll of the dice.

All competitors pay entry fees, all of them have equal right to the track. IMO something akin to class distinction comes into play when all of a sudden someone decides that someone else is now a second class citizen.


My main "no" to "no blues" is that I see the race to be the race from the start line to the finish line. And it does not make a sense to me that a driver which is far behind the lead driver suddenly starts "defending" that "position" of his against the lead driver who is actually not competing that guy at all (he got him already some 5 km behind himself in fact), but someone else who is chasing him for the win. And so suddenly this driver starts obstructing the lead driver, even with the potentiality of an accident - the lead driver may be too anxious to get a risky move in that stage of his racing, particularly so on the tracks with "the position is the the king". And all that for no real purpose of the racing itself. As the matter of fact, they do not race each others at all!

Yes, it would bring more unpredictability and possible upsets, hence more entertainment to the viewers. But in its essence it would be artificial way of achieving it, a gimmick.

Otherwise, I agree with Zoue. The cars that to be lapped should not have to be sacrificing anything for that sake. But at the same time not mindlessly try to obstruct and "defend" just for the sake of it, but rather be cooperative at those moments and leave the space. And it's not like a tenth or two lost in the process would make a difference, in perhaps 99% of situations.


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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 10:09 am 
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If a lapped driver breaks the rules in defending, he should be punished just as any other competitor. Besides a blue flag, warning a driver a faster car is behind him, there also exist a black-and-white flag and a black flag.

The problem here is that FIA/F1 have for far too long allowed unfair racing because of "the spectacle", tending to call it "hard but fair". We have seen such behaviour among drivers in top teams, with predictable excitement and discussions as a result. Correct stewarding should ensure we always see fair and sporting racing.

I do believe that the choice of circuits for F1 racing may be made a bit more carefully, in that Mickey Mouse-tracks make it more difficult for lapped cars to get out of the way without sacrificing too much. But surely F1 is now so refined it doesn't visit such tracks anymore...? (Cough.)

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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 10:00 am 
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2 things, maybe if the circuits were a bit longer there wouldn't be so many lapped cars... and if the cars at the back had better budgets (fairer distribution of funds) then they might have a chance to stay on the same lap.

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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 12:14 pm 
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ALESI wrote:
2 things, maybe if the circuits were a bit longer there wouldn't be so many lapped cars... and if the cars at the back had better budgets (fairer distribution of funds) then they might have a chance to stay on the same lap.


Your second point is particularly salient seeing as it was a Williams blocking a Ferrari. To historic teams and yet the very most Williams can earn from commercial rights is aout $25 million less than the very least Ferrari can earn.

I would also point at that Massa was hardly someone at the back. He was driving the third fastest car and up in the points.


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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 3:22 pm 
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Prema wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Warnzee wrote:
I think the fear of doing away with the current blue flag rules is the possibility of race outcomes, or even the Championships being decided by a back marker getting in the way of a leading car.

Imagine the final race of this season - it's been a crazy back and forth battle for the WDC between Lewis and Seb and it's gone right down to the wire. Everyone is raving about how intense and dramatic the season has been. Possibly the best head to head for years. The gap in points is such that whoever finishes ahead in the race wins the title.

Thanks to an almighty qualy lap Lewis is on pole (a new outright lap record for the Yas Marina circuit), desipte the Ferrri having been quicker than the Merc all through free practise. Lewis is leads the race and looks set to clinch his third WDC in four years.

Approaching the second and final round of pitstops and Seb is sat right on Lewis' gearbox again. Approaching back markers, Merc decide to pull Lewis in and deny Seb the undercut. However one of the back markers (lets say its a Renault so no bias to either front-runner) pits on the same lap.

Due to a sticky wheel nut the Renault loses time in the pits and exits the pitlane less than two seconds ahead of Lewis.

Lewis covers the gap in the first sector, but due to the layout of the circuit he can't pass until he's come back around to the front straight and loses two seconds relative to Vettel.

Vettel pits the next lap, and exits the pits in front of Lewis. Proceeds to hold him off for the rest of the race and wins the title.

So, after 20 races all over the world producing (arguably) the most exciting WDC battle ever, and one driver and team doing everything right in the final race, it is decided by a back marker getting in the way at precisely the wrong time.


I would prefer we do not use current driver names because fan bias comes into play and our emotions cloud our judgement.

But if this scenario unfolds between driver X and driver Z, it would be just fantastic.

Personally, I don't bow down to the Gods of Fairness when it comes to professional sports. All of us have witnessed major sporting events decided by incredibly weird stuff right at the end. Mansell blew a tire and his title in Australia. Earnhardt got a flat on the last lap and saw his goal of a Daytona 500 win evaporate. How many World Cup matches have been decided by the most insane antics?

First off, all athletes of this level make insane amounts of money, a loss would not put them out on the street to beg. Secondly, they make such huge sums because so many fans watch, and those fans clamor for action and excitement. If it was boring and sterile, less fans, less income for all in Formula One.

And to be honest, it it had to come down to the last race of the season to decide, neither party has any strong claim for the win, it comes down to a multitude of factors. Flat tires, safety car, a faulty component, there are a zillion factors that can come into play. And dealing with backmarkers, just like all those other factors are deciders. A roll of the dice.

All competitors pay entry fees, all of them have equal right to the track. IMO something akin to class distinction comes into play when all of a sudden someone decides that someone else is now a second class citizen.


My main "no" to "no blues" is that I see the race to be the race from the start line to the finish line. And it does not make a sense to me that a driver which is far behind the lead driver suddenly starts "defending" that "position" of his against the lead driver who is actually not competing that guy at all (he got him already some 5 km behind himself in fact), but someone else who is chasing him for the win. And so suddenly this driver starts obstructing the lead driver, even with the potentiality of an accident - the lead driver may be too anxious to get a risky move in that stage of his racing, particularly so on the tracks with "the position is the the king". And all that for no real purpose of the racing itself. As the matter of fact, they do not race each others at all!

Yes, it would bring more unpredictability and possible upsets, hence more entertainment to the viewers. But in its essence it would be artificial way of achieving it, a gimmick.

Otherwise, I agree with Zoue. The cars that to be lapped should not have to be sacrificing anything for that sake. But at the same time not mindlessly try to obstruct and "defend" just for the sake of it, but rather be cooperative at those moments and leave the space. And it's not like a tenth or two lost in the process would make a difference, in perhaps 99% of situations.


What played out in 2012 at Hockhenheim was exactly what you described in your first paragraph. Was it fair, and to whom?

Formula One is a huge gimmick and entirely artificial. Every component in a Formula One car is bespoke, having nothing in common with real world cars. The tracks are constructed for this show, liberally covered in advertising. The drivers and cars are billboards for advertisers, and when it comes to gimmicks, from DRS to tires, what can I say?

Unfortunately it seems to come down to favoring the lead cars and sacrificing backmarkers, or just letting it all go in a big furball. But the first option kills any chances for new teams hoping to join the circus.

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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 6:48 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Prema wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:

I would prefer we do not use current driver names because fan bias comes into play and our emotions cloud our judgement.

But if this scenario unfolds between driver X and driver Z, it would be just fantastic.

Personally, I don't bow down to the Gods of Fairness when it comes to professional sports. All of us have witnessed major sporting events decided by incredibly weird stuff right at the end. Mansell blew a tire and his title in Australia. Earnhardt got a flat on the last lap and saw his goal of a Daytona 500 win evaporate. How many World Cup matches have been decided by the most insane antics?

First off, all athletes of this level make insane amounts of money, a loss would not put them out on the street to beg. Secondly, they make such huge sums because so many fans watch, and those fans clamor for action and excitement. If it was boring and sterile, less fans, less income for all in Formula One.

And to be honest, it it had to come down to the last race of the season to decide, neither party has any strong claim for the win, it comes down to a multitude of factors. Flat tires, safety car, a faulty component, there are a zillion factors that can come into play. And dealing with backmarkers, just like all those other factors are deciders. A roll of the dice.

All competitors pay entry fees, all of them have equal right to the track. IMO something akin to class distinction comes into play when all of a sudden someone decides that someone else is now a second class citizen.


My main "no" to "no blues" is that I see the race to be the race from the start line to the finish line. And it does not make a sense to me that a driver which is far behind the lead driver suddenly starts "defending" that "position" of his against the lead driver who is actually not competing that guy at all (he got him already some 5 km behind himself in fact), but someone else who is chasing him for the win. And so suddenly this driver starts obstructing the lead driver, even with the potentiality of an accident - the lead driver may be too anxious to get a risky move in that stage of his racing, particularly so on the tracks with "the position is the the king". And all that for no real purpose of the racing itself. As the matter of fact, they do not race each others at all!

Yes, it would bring more unpredictability and possible upsets, hence more entertainment to the viewers. But in its essence it would be artificial way of achieving it, a gimmick.

Otherwise, I agree with Zoue. The cars that to be lapped should not have to be sacrificing anything for that sake. But at the same time not mindlessly try to obstruct and "defend" just for the sake of it, but rather be cooperative at those moments and leave the space. And it's not like a tenth or two lost in the process would make a difference, in perhaps 99% of situations.


What played out in 2012 at Hockhenheim was exactly what you described in your first paragraph. Was it fair, and to whom?

Formula One is a huge gimmick and entirely artificial. Every component in a Formula One car is bespoke, having nothing in common with real world cars. The tracks are constructed for this show, liberally covered in advertising. The drivers and cars are billboards for advertisers, and when it comes to gimmicks, from DRS to tires, what can I say?

Unfortunately it seems to come down to favoring the lead cars and sacrificing backmarkers, or just letting it all go in a big furball. But the first option kills any chances for new teams hoping to join the circus.


I don't know what was that what happened in 2012 in Hockenheim, so I can't answer. But is it really the existence of blue flags that kills any chances for new teams hoping to join the circus? Well, to hell with the blue flags then and let's have then all those great auto-makers start lining for signing up...

I get it that all professional sports are ultimately entertainment business geared towards generating huge profits and hence "entirely artificial". But I find your approach "it all is gimmicks anyway" to be a weak one, since it dwells on the level of absolutism and you are bound to enter the practical world of relativitets and balances sooner or later. And I am sure that you do that too, when to show your displeasure with something that you find to be but a "gimmick" and voice your opinion as why so and why not to go down that road. Just that you are not ready to do that here, apparently.

On the end, we are but consumers of the show that do have a different "taste" in this particular instance. You'd prefer more of gimmicks, while I'd prefer more of that "silver lining" called "competition". In some other instance, maybe we turn the tables...

And you apparently did not relate to Zoue's position, that I reflected here too, since you have this rather a bit dramatic position of "sacrificing backmarkers" for the sake of letting the leading cars pass unobstructed.


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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 7:09 pm 
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And let me just add, those examples of "gimmicks" that you mentioned (DRS, tyres), they are designed to increase the element of entertainment but at the same time giving the equal opportunity to all competitors to have the use of it. No-blue flags would not be that. You would have the situation of a driver that is being lapped having nothing to win by obstructing the lead driver and not giving him a free pass (like in this race, Massa in Williams can give you a hell of difficulties to pass him for many laps). And the lead driver that pushed all the race for that P1 be in the situation to potentially lose it all by being blocked, while the chasing driver behind him closing quickly on him on the fresher, faster tires...
(ah, "life's a bitch sometimes" argument incoming...)


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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 12:00 am 
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This suggestion to remove blue flags from the sport is one of the worst things I've ever seen in recent times, almost on par with Bernie's sprinkles.

Why should the faster driver have to "work" to overtake the lapped one? The lapped driver can't even defend against the driver behind him, because they're not racing for position, so it's pointless. Approaching a backmarker is bad for both, and let's not pretend that the backmarker is the only affected party in this, because the need to overtake slows both drivers down.

This rule does not exist to give a free pass to the front runners, it exists as damage restriction. And it's best kept this way. It's easy to see the disaster that would happen in tracks where it's nearly impossible to overtake, of which there are plenty in modern F1.

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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 4:49 am 
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Yeah, no thanks. We really do not need to and shouldnt be even considering removing the blue flags.

Do we really want to see a backmarker taking out personal grudge against one of the leading drivers and costing potential race wins, podiums and valuable points?
We already see little naughty things even with these rules every now and then. Do we really want to be in a position where a Williams or TR driver influencing the world championship at the last race by blocking Hamilton or Vettel due to their own personal agenda? And you can bet your @$$ that something like this will happen if blue flags are removed.

Thanks, but no thanks. A car which is more than 5km behind the leaders has no business messing with their races. This is not oval. We are talking about proper race tracks and street circuits with modern F1 cars. Blue flags have a very important function and are perfectly justified.
At times it will cause backmarkers some time on track, but the sharp end battling for championship will rightly get preferential treatment.


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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 5:19 am 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Unfortunately it seems to come down to favoring the lead cars and sacrificing backmarkers, or just letting it all go in a big furball. But the first option kills any chances for new teams hoping to join the circus.

What a bizarre thing to say. We have a new team in the circus, who just joined last year. I don't think blue flags have killed their chances at all (Vettel's annoyance at Gutierrez last year notwithstanding), and they seem to be moving up and making themselves a major part of the midfield battle this year.

I honestly can't imagine why the existence of blue flags as they are does anything to the chances of new teams. If they get lapped, odds are pretty good the cars they're fighting are going to get lapped as well.

funkymonkey wrote:
A car which is more than 5km behind the leaders has no business messing with their races. This is not oval.

It doesn't have any place on ovals either. It disgusts me when a lapped car intentionally interferes with the lead battle in oval races, which is all too common.

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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 3:34 pm 
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funkymonkey wrote:
Yeah, no thanks. We really do not need to and shouldnt be even considering removing the blue flags.

Do we really want to see a backmarker taking out personal grudge against one of the leading drivers and costing potential race wins, podiums and valuable points?
We already see little naughty things even with these rules every now and then. Do we really want to be in a position where a Williams or TR driver influencing the world championship at the last race by blocking Hamilton or Vettel due to their own personal agenda? And you can bet your @$$ that something like this will happen if blue flags are removed.

Thanks, but no thanks. A car which is more than 5km behind the leaders has no business messing with their races. This is not oval. We are talking about proper race tracks and street circuits with modern F1 cars. Blue flags have a very important function and are perfectly justified.
At times it will cause backmarkers some time on track, but the sharp end battling for championship will rightly get preferential treatment.


But drivers often get lapped while they are still in the points! And their place in the championship could be really tight with the other teams and drivers. If they have to affect their race in the middle of a fight with the other lapped drivers, they could cost their team hugely. I still think they should get treated a little more fairly than they do now. What would you think if one of the drivers who is battling for the drivers championship as well as the constructors championship got lapped because of a technical problem. Had to pit and then came out a lap behind but was still in the points. Should they then "rightly get preferential treatment"? Because it is down to them to help their team win the championship. I know this is a "what if" scenario but it could well happen.


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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 4:31 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
funkymonkey wrote:
Yeah, no thanks. We really do not need to and shouldnt be even considering removing the blue flags.

Do we really want to see a backmarker taking out personal grudge against one of the leading drivers and costing potential race wins, podiums and valuable points?
We already see little naughty things even with these rules every now and then. Do we really want to be in a position where a Williams or TR driver influencing the world championship at the last race by blocking Hamilton or Vettel due to their own personal agenda? And you can bet your @$$ that something like this will happen if blue flags are removed.

Thanks, but no thanks. A car which is more than 5km behind the leaders has no business messing with their races. This is not oval. We are talking about proper race tracks and street circuits with modern F1 cars. Blue flags have a very important function and are perfectly justified.
At times it will cause backmarkers some time on track, but the sharp end battling for championship will rightly get preferential treatment.


But drivers often get lapped while they are still in the points! And their place in the championship could be really tight with the other teams and drivers. If they have to affect their race in the middle of a fight with the other lapped drivers, they could cost their team hugely. I still think they should get treated a little more fairly than they do now. What would you think if one of the drivers who is battling for the drivers championship as well as the constructors championship got lapped because of a technical problem. Had to pit and then came out a lap behind but was still in the points. Should they then "rightly get preferential treatment"? Because it is down to them to help their team win the championship. I know this is a "what if" scenario but it could well happen.


Hmm... it starts feeling like we never have had the opportunity to see in reality the blue flags, a new change in F1 just being announced and we are brainstorming around hypothetical situations... how's this new thing called "blue flags" going to work out now?! :uhoh:


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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 4:56 pm 
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You might simply look it up of course, but do try first to guess who said this, or what his function is:

Quote:
"Regulations are made for the front end of the grid," he said.

"The people that talk in driver briefings to [FIA F1 race director] Charlie [Whiting], like [Sebastian] Vettel and [Mark] Webber when he was there, [Fernando] Alonso, [Jenson] Button, all the experienced guys that want the best for them to make their race perfect.

"It is them that have pushed for blue flags, drivers being penalised.

"We need to come back and help the back end of the grid, I think.

"Take away blue flags, take away all these penalties.

"Let's get back to harder racing and let people work out how to overtake when coming to lap a slow car.

"These guys will enjoy F1 more if all of a sudden, the great drivers like Lewis Hamilton, who will be unbelievable in traffic without the blue flags, will be even more unbelievable.


I was pleasantly surprised by this comment, which dates from earlier this year.

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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 9:22 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
You might simply look it up of course, but do try first to guess who said this, or what his function is:

Quote:
"Regulations are made for the front end of the grid," he said.

"The people that talk in driver briefings to [FIA F1 race director] Charlie [Whiting], like [Sebastian] Vettel and [Mark] Webber when he was there, [Fernando] Alonso, [Jenson] Button, all the experienced guys that want the best for them to make their race perfect.

"It is them that have pushed for blue flags, drivers being penalised.

"We need to come back and help the back end of the grid, I think.

"Take away blue flags, take away all these penalties.

"Let's get back to harder racing and let people work out how to overtake when coming to lap a slow car.

"These guys will enjoy F1 more if all of a sudden, the great drivers like Lewis Hamilton, who will be unbelievable in traffic without the blue flags, will be even more unbelievable.


I was pleasantly surprised by this comment, which dates from earlier this year.


Ross Brawn?


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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 10:29 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
You might simply look it up of course, but do try first to guess who said this, or what his function is:

Quote:
"Regulations are made for the front end of the grid," he said.

"The people that talk in driver briefings to [FIA F1 race director] Charlie [Whiting], like [Sebastian] Vettel and [Mark] Webber when he was there, [Fernando] Alonso, [Jenson] Button, all the experienced guys that want the best for them to make their race perfect.

"It is them that have pushed for blue flags, drivers being penalised.

"We need to come back and help the back end of the grid, I think.

"Take away blue flags, take away all these penalties.

"Let's get back to harder racing and let people work out how to overtake when coming to lap a slow car.

"These guys will enjoy F1 more if all of a sudden, the great drivers like Lewis Hamilton, who will be unbelievable in traffic without the blue flags, will be even more unbelievable.


I was pleasantly surprised by this comment, which dates from earlier this year.


Generally speaking, whatever Ross Brawn says, I'll be vehemently against, even if it's in the series' best interests, (which I don't think it is in this case). When it comes to sporting behavior, Ross Brawn is just a more civilized version of Flavio Briatore.

I don't see it as penalty. The blue flags may make the front runners' lives easier, but drivers still lose time and still have to manage their overtaking well. Not to mention there are many tracks where it's extremely difficult to overtake even cars three, four seconds slower than yours. Monaco is the obvious example. I'd love to see what the "great" Lewis Hamilton would do to get rid of a train of two or three much slower cars than him at Monaco.

There's no benefit for a lapped car to keep a front runner behind. If you end their obligation to let the front runners through, it makes it even easier for a satellite team like Toro Rosso to ruin the race of Red Bull's competitors, as it already happens even with the blue flag rule in place. You can be sure that, if blue flags are removed, Toro Rosso drivers will let Red Bull drivers through as though they were being waved blue flags, while they wouldn't do the same to drivers of other teams.

This is no criticism to you BTW, Fiki. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 12:31 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
funkymonkey wrote:
Yeah, no thanks. We really do not need to and shouldnt be even considering removing the blue flags.

Do we really want to see a backmarker taking out personal grudge against one of the leading drivers and costing potential race wins, podiums and valuable points?
We already see little naughty things even with these rules every now and then. Do we really want to be in a position where a Williams or TR driver influencing the world championship at the last race by blocking Hamilton or Vettel due to their own personal agenda? And you can bet your @$$ that something like this will happen if blue flags are removed.

Thanks, but no thanks. A car which is more than 5km behind the leaders has no business messing with their races. This is not oval. We are talking about proper race tracks and street circuits with modern F1 cars. Blue flags have a very important function and are perfectly justified.
At times it will cause backmarkers some time on track, but the sharp end battling for championship will rightly get preferential treatment.


But drivers often get lapped while they are still in the points! And their place in the championship could be really tight with the other teams and drivers. If they have to affect their race in the middle of a fight with the other lapped drivers, they could cost their team hugely. I still think they should get treated a little more fairly than they do now. What would you think if one of the drivers who is battling for the drivers championship as well as the constructors championship got lapped because of a technical problem. Had to pit and then came out a lap behind but was still in the points. Should they then "rightly get preferential treatment"? Because it is down to them to help their team win the championship. I know this is a "what if" scenario but it could well happen.


Yup, still right to give them preferential treatment because they are ahead. Period!

You are not fighting for win, you have no right to impede the car about to lap you. Even if you are within points or fighting for that last point.
Unless something has gone wrong horribly, you wont see drivers from top 2 teams fighting for championship getting lapped. They are usually too quick even if they start with penalties and at the back. We saw this few times in last 3 years.


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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 8:19 am 
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Posts: 527
funkymonkey wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
funkymonkey wrote:
Yeah, no thanks. We really do not need to and shouldnt be even considering removing the blue flags.

Do we really want to see a backmarker taking out personal grudge against one of the leading drivers and costing potential race wins, podiums and valuable points?
We already see little naughty things even with these rules every now and then. Do we really want to be in a position where a Williams or TR driver influencing the world championship at the last race by blocking Hamilton or Vettel due to their own personal agenda? And you can bet your @$$ that something like this will happen if blue flags are removed.

Thanks, but no thanks. A car which is more than 5km behind the leaders has no business messing with their races. This is not oval. We are talking about proper race tracks and street circuits with modern F1 cars. Blue flags have a very important function and are perfectly justified.
At times it will cause backmarkers some time on track, but the sharp end battling for championship will rightly get preferential treatment.


But drivers often get lapped while they are still in the points! And their place in the championship could be really tight with the other teams and drivers. If they have to affect their race in the middle of a fight with the other lapped drivers, they could cost their team hugely. I still think they should get treated a little more fairly than they do now. What would you think if one of the drivers who is battling for the drivers championship as well as the constructors championship got lapped because of a technical problem. Had to pit and then came out a lap behind but was still in the points. Should they then "rightly get preferential treatment"? Because it is down to them to help their team win the championship. I know this is a "what if" scenario but it could well happen.


Yup, still right to give them preferential treatment because they are ahead. Period!

You are not fighting for win, you have no right to impede the car about to lap you. Even if you are within points or fighting for that last point.
Unless something has gone wrong horribly, you wont see drivers from top 2 teams fighting for championship getting lapped. They are usually too quick even if they start with penalties and at the back. We saw this few times in last 3 years.


I remember the last race in 2014 where Rosberg got lapped. I'm going to do a load of "what ifs" again but they may well have happened and I'm just wondering if you would still think the same. After Brazil 2014, Hamilton had 334 points and Rosberg had 317. So that is 17 points behind. If it had been Hamilton who had Rosberg's issues but several more cars had retired , he could have still got some good points even if he was lapped. But should he give up fighting completely with his competitors when the drivers lap him if he still had a chance of winning the championship? Hamilton barely beat Massa that race. So if we generally think Hamilton is stronger than Rosberg, if Rosberg was up there, Massa could well have beaten him which would also help still give Hamilton a chance if he'd had Rosbergs issues. I know none of this happened. But these things have happened several times at different races and there could be a chance that they could at some point all merge into one race.

My main point is, if there was a lapped driver that was in the points in the final race of the season who was fighting for the championship and still had a chance to win it, do you still think they don't have the right to fight with their other competitors, even if it does affect the leaders race a little bit?

If Rosberg happened to be ahead of Hamilton in the points before the final race but had the problems he did, then it will have seemed incredibly unfair that he couldn't still race even if he was a lap down if it cost the leaders any time.



I still think the blue flags cost most of the lapped drivers far too much of the time. If the drivers in the lead are fast enough to lap them, it really shouldn't be too difficult to get past them. So long as the lapped drivers don't try to defend or be awkward about it though. It often isn't the lapped drivers fault that it is impossible to keep up with the leaders as their car is slow. So just because of this, why should they compromise their own races so much? The leaders are already lucky enough to have the faster cars so I feel they should respect that the drivers with the slow cars have to put up with having to drive something that is nowhere near as fast as well as constantly have to drive around looking in their mirrors to be prepared to let the leaders through. I do feel really sorry for the lapped drivers a lot of the time.


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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 12:11 pm 
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Answer will remain the same. If in that race you are not competing, you have no right to impede leaders. And this is perfect example. We can think of one or two instances where a genuinely quick driver got lapped and that too after lot of things went wrong.

No need to get rid of blue flags for anomalies. Dont want to loose time? Dont be in a position to get lapped. As simple as that.


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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 12:32 pm 
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Backmarkers may well be competing for position with each other though and, when points are rare to come by, these positions may well be vital to the team(s). Perhaps blue flags should subject the lapped drivers to 'yellow' (no overtaking each other) rules until the lapping driver is clear.
whilst we were all excited to see Verstappen make up positions at Monaco (last year?) by following Vettel past cars Vettel was lapping, it's a little unfair on this who are having to yield first and compromise their own speed as a result.
No need to hold up the leaders. Also, no need to have to compromise position for those being lapped.

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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 4:16 pm 
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Posts: 5979
Pole2Win wrote:
Fiki wrote:
You might simply look it up of course, but do try first to guess who said this, or what his function is:

Quote:
"Regulations are made for the front end of the grid," he said.

"The people that talk in driver briefings to [FIA F1 race director] Charlie [Whiting], like [Sebastian] Vettel and [Mark] Webber when he was there, [Fernando] Alonso, [Jenson] Button, all the experienced guys that want the best for them to make their race perfect.

"It is them that have pushed for blue flags, drivers being penalised.

"We need to come back and help the back end of the grid, I think.

"Take away blue flags, take away all these penalties.

"Let's get back to harder racing and let people work out how to overtake when coming to lap a slow car.

"These guys will enjoy F1 more if all of a sudden, the great drivers like Lewis Hamilton, who will be unbelievable in traffic without the blue flags, will be even more unbelievable.


I was pleasantly surprised by this comment, which dates from earlier this year.


Generally speaking, whatever Ross Brawn says, I'll be vehemently against, even if it's in the series' best interests, (which I don't think it is in this case). When it comes to sporting behavior, Ross Brawn is just a more civilized version of Flavio Briatore.

I don't see it as penalty. The blue flags may make the front runners' lives easier, but drivers still lose time and still have to manage their overtaking well. Not to mention there are many tracks where it's extremely difficult to overtake even cars three, four seconds slower than yours. Monaco is the obvious example. I'd love to see what the "great" Lewis Hamilton would do to get rid of a train of two or three much slower cars than him at Monaco.

There's no benefit for a lapped car to keep a front runner behind. If you end their obligation to let the front runners through, it makes it even easier for a satellite team like Toro Rosso to ruin the race of Red Bull's competitors, as it already happens even with the blue flag rule in place. You can be sure that, if blue flags are removed, Toro Rosso drivers will let Red Bull drivers through as though they were being waved blue flags, while they wouldn't do the same to drivers of other teams.

This is no criticism to you BTW, Fiki. :)


Wasn't Ross Brawn.


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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 4:39 pm 
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Prema wrote:
Wasn't Ross Brawn.


I hate when laziness gets the better of me. :(

I don't know Derek enough to understand why it would be surprising for him to say that, so my only guess is that he's still salty about the Senna veto in 1986...

Regardless, Ross Brawn was one of the proponents of the idea, so my point is still valid, though in a different way of course.

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