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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 7:45 pm 
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funkymonkey wrote:
Answer will remain the same. If in that race you are not competing, you have no right to impede leaders. And this is perfect example. We can think of one or two instances where a genuinely quick driver got lapped and that too after lot of things went wrong.

No need to get rid of blue flags for anomalies. Dont want to loose time? Dont be in a position to get lapped. As simple as that.


Ok, fair enough, we have different views. However, The bit in bold does sound a bit silly to me. All drivers including the one who is last are competitors! If you are not competing, then you couldn't possibly get in the way of the leaders as you wouldn't be on the track.

It would also be like saying Jules Bianchi wasn't competing in Monaco 2014 as he was lapped (very nearly twice I think). But he was in 9th and fighting for the only points Manor Marussia ever got! And even Hulkenberg who was as high as 5th got lapped. Does that mean he shouldn't be able to fight with his competitors if it affected the leaders? 5th isn't much further down than 1st really is it?


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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 11:05 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
funkymonkey wrote:
Answer will remain the same. If in that race you are not competing, you have no right to impede leaders. And this is perfect example. We can think of one or two instances where a genuinely quick driver got lapped and that too after lot of things went wrong.

No need to get rid of blue flags for anomalies. Dont want to loose time? Dont be in a position to get lapped. As simple as that.


Ok, fair enough, we have different views. However, The bit in bold does sound a bit silly to me. All drivers including the one who is last are competitors! If you are not competing, then you couldn't possibly get in the way of the leaders as you wouldn't be on the track.

It would also be like saying Jules Bianchi wasn't competing in Monaco 2014 as he was lapped (very nearly twice I think). But he was in 9th and fighting for the only points Manor Marussia ever got! And even Hulkenberg who was as high as 5th got lapped. Does that mean he shouldn't be able to fight with his competitors if it affected the leaders? 5th isn't much further down than 1st really is it?

The example you provided is a rare occurrence.
Only 9 out of 21 races last season had 1 or more cars that finished in the points lapped, and that was mostly the 10th or the 9th placed car.

But lets just give the backmarkers the same relevance as the leading pack and analyze some data:

1. In 21 races last season, a total of 30 cars that finished in the points were also 1 lap down on the leader, and therefore could have been affected by Blue Flags.

2. Now compare that with leading driver who, in 21 races had to lap a total of 209 backmarkers and tell me which is more likely to skew up the race results unfairly, Blue Flag rules, or no Blue Flags at all, 30 or 209 events?

The odds are almost 7 to 1, and we`re not even taking into consideration that in the majority of the races, not only the outright leader, but even drivers fighting for positions as low as the 6th or 8th place have to lap 1 or 2 backmarkers (placed 20th - 15th, fighting for virtually nothing at all) at some point. Do we really need to potentially affect the top 7 or top 8 positions, just to make sure the leaders wont interfere on the fight for the 9th or 10th position? (30 positions in 21 races, thats what it comes down to in average, the 10th and 9th place).

Any calls against the Blue Flags seem pretty illogical to me, especially this current season considering how heavily and badly this season's cars seem to be affected by the slipstream of the car in front.


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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 12:00 am 
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Posts: 506
Fairly minor consideration perhaps, but think blue flags are also important to ensure that teams do not blatantly try and impact race results if one of their own drivers happens to be down a lap for whatever reason. No doubt teams would consider this towards the end of the season if titles are on the line.


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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 4:37 am 
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Posts: 5979
Migen wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
funkymonkey wrote:
Answer will remain the same. If in that race you are not competing, you have no right to impede leaders. And this is perfect example. We can think of one or two instances where a genuinely quick driver got lapped and that too after lot of things went wrong.

No need to get rid of blue flags for anomalies. Dont want to loose time? Dont be in a position to get lapped. As simple as that.


Ok, fair enough, we have different views. However, The bit in bold does sound a bit silly to me. All drivers including the one who is last are competitors! If you are not competing, then you couldn't possibly get in the way of the leaders as you wouldn't be on the track.

It would also be like saying Jules Bianchi wasn't competing in Monaco 2014 as he was lapped (very nearly twice I think). But he was in 9th and fighting for the only points Manor Marussia ever got! And even Hulkenberg who was as high as 5th got lapped. Does that mean he shouldn't be able to fight with his competitors if it affected the leaders? 5th isn't much further down than 1st really is it?

The example you provided is a rare occurrence.
Only 9 out of 21 races last season had 1 or more cars that finished in the points lapped, and that was mostly the 10th or the 9th placed car.

But lets just give the backmarkers the same relevance as the leading pack and analyze some data:

1. In 21 races last season, a total of 30 cars that finished in the points were also 1 lap down on the leader, and therefore could have been affected by Blue Flags.

2. Now compare that with leading driver who, in 21 races had to lap a total of 209 backmarkers and tell me which is more likely to skew up the race results unfairly, Blue Flag rules, or no Blue Flags at all, 30 or 209 events?

The odds are almost 7 to 1, and we`re not even taking into consideration that in the majority of the races, not only the outright leader, but even drivers fighting for positions as low as the 6th or 8th place have to lap 1 or 2 backmarkers (placed 20th - 15th, fighting for virtually nothing at all) at some point. Do we really need to potentially affect the top 7 or top 8 positions, just to make sure the leaders wont interfere on the fight for the 9th or 10th position? (30 positions in 21 races, thats what it comes down to in average, the 10th and 9th place).

Any calls against the Blue Flags seem pretty illogical to me, especially this current season considering how heavily and badly this season's cars seem to be affected by the slipstream of the car in front.


You reasoned well, and you also put some work in too. The point 2. is particularly telling.

I just do not see the way that the proponents of "no blue flags" can uphold their position by pursuing this line of a fair and square racing. To start with, the onus of the racing is on the winning it, and not on the backmarkers ending in a point or two. Intentionally sacrificing the former one for the sake of the later one would be a ridiculous move towards "it is not important to win but to participate" format.

It remains rather the line that Blinky supported, i.e. that it all is but a circus for the fun of watching and entertaining the crowds, so the question to argue would be "Which one that would entertain more, which one that would attract bigger viewership and generate more revenues to the F1?". And there, you open Pandora's box... UFC or American Wrestling.. or something there in between.
Well, it would ultimate depend on the audience and its preferences, so the gods of F1 may ponder over that one (which, generally speaking, they do anyway) and keep experimenting. And we are the consumers that have the final word - to buy the product or not.


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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 11:23 am 
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Posts: 6353
Location: Belgium
Pole2Win wrote:
Prema wrote:
Wasn't Ross Brawn.


I hate when laziness gets the better of me. :(

I don't know Derek enough to understand why it would be surprising for him to say that, so my only guess is that he's still salty about the Senna veto in 1986...

Regardless, Ross Brawn was one of the proponents of the idea, so my point is still valid, though in a different way of course.

Indeed it wasn't Ross Brawn, but Derek Warwick. I was a bit surprised he shared my views about fair racing, seeing he is a current driver-steward, with full knowledge of current rules. Those rules are unfair towards lapped drivers in my view, and Derek Warwick illustrates how they came and come about.

I understand the point that underlies the modern rules, as does Warwick. But unlike myself, he has first-hand experience of being a front-runner and a lapped driver in the good old days when the leaders had to race everybody. I find his rationale to be much fairer to everybody.

If a driver about to be lapped breaks the rules in holding up a leading driver, he should be punished. Just as I felt at the time that drivers like Senna, who offered a backmarker the chance of getting out of his way or have an accident, should have been punished.

I fail to see the logic in blue flagging a driver out of the way of the leaders, when those leaders already had the advantage of starting further up the grid. They are given that position on the basis of having shown their superior speed. They should use that speed to sportingly pass a backmarker.

Finally, even those not in the points are classified, and their classification at the end of the season is of paramount importance for their budgets. I think that's the only allowance I would make to the economics behind some of the arguments. The olympic ideal is old-fashioned, I know. But to me, every driver in the race, is in the race.

_________________
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi


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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 3:04 pm 
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Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:40 pm
Posts: 5979
Fiki wrote:
Pole2Win wrote:
Prema wrote:
Wasn't Ross Brawn.


I hate when laziness gets the better of me. :(

I don't know Derek enough to understand why it would be surprising for him to say that, so my only guess is that he's still salty about the Senna veto in 1986...

Regardless, Ross Brawn was one of the proponents of the idea, so my point is still valid, though in a different way of course.

Indeed it wasn't Ross Brawn, but Derek Warwick. I was a bit surprised he shared my views about fair racing, seeing he is a current driver-steward, with full knowledge of current rules. Those rules are unfair towards lapped drivers in my view, and Derek Warwick illustrates how they came and come about.

I understand the point that underlies the modern rules, as does Warwick. But unlike myself, he has first-hand experience of being a front-runner and a lapped driver in the good old days when the leaders had to race everybody. I find his rationale to be much fairer to everybody.

If a driver about to be lapped breaks the rules in holding up a leading driver, he should be punished. Just as I felt at the time that drivers like Senna, who offered a backmarker the chance of getting out of his way or have an accident, should have been punished.

I fail to see the logic in blue flagging a driver out of the way of the leaders, when those leaders already had the advantage of starting further up the grid. They are given that position on the basis of having shown their superior speed. They should use that speed to sportingly pass a backmarker.

Finally, even those not in the points are classified, and their classification at the end of the season is of paramount importance for their budgets. I think that's the only allowance I would make to the economics behind some of the arguments. The olympic ideal is old-fashioned, I know. But to me, every driver in the race, is in the race.


I am afraid I don't get it. You just said that you were surprised to see Derek sharing your views in this issue. This is what he said, you quoted him:

"Take away blue flags, take away all these penalties".
"Let's get back to harder racing and let people work out how to overtake when coming to lap a slow car."

Now, compare that with your statement there up, underlined. Just the opposite! He said, take away all these penalties, get back to harder racing... and you say, punish them, if they break the rules in holding leaders back! What rules exactly? The blue flag rules? What "holding" of a leading driver would that be? Is that what you think that Derek meant with "harder racing", or what would it be anyway (that to be different than any other "holding" such as a lead driver defending his position, for example)?


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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 8:06 am 
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Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 11:06 am
Posts: 6353
Location: Belgium
Prema wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Pole2Win wrote:
Prema wrote:
Wasn't Ross Brawn.


I hate when laziness gets the better of me. :(

I don't know Derek enough to understand why it would be surprising for him to say that, so my only guess is that he's still salty about the Senna veto in 1986...

Regardless, Ross Brawn was one of the proponents of the idea, so my point is still valid, though in a different way of course.

Indeed it wasn't Ross Brawn, but Derek Warwick. I was a bit surprised he shared my views about fair racing, seeing he is a current driver-steward, with full knowledge of current rules. Those rules are unfair towards lapped drivers in my view, and Derek Warwick illustrates how they came and come about.

I understand the point that underlies the modern rules, as does Warwick. But unlike myself, he has first-hand experience of being a front-runner and a lapped driver in the good old days when the leaders had to race everybody. I find his rationale to be much fairer to everybody.

If a driver about to be lapped breaks the rules in holding up a leading driver, he should be punished. Just as I felt at the time that drivers like Senna, who offered a backmarker the chance of getting out of his way or have an accident, should have been punished.

I fail to see the logic in blue flagging a driver out of the way of the leaders, when those leaders already had the advantage of starting further up the grid. They are given that position on the basis of having shown their superior speed. They should use that speed to sportingly pass a backmarker.

Finally, even those not in the points are classified, and their classification at the end of the season is of paramount importance for their budgets. I think that's the only allowance I would make to the economics behind some of the arguments. The olympic ideal is old-fashioned, I know. But to me, every driver in the race, is in the race.


I am afraid I don't get it. You just said that you were surprised to see Derek sharing your views in this issue. This is what he said, you quoted him:

"Take away blue flags, take away all these penalties".
"Let's get back to harder racing and let people work out how to overtake when coming to lap a slow car."

Now, compare that with your statement there up, underlined. Just the opposite! He said, take away all these penalties, get back to harder racing... and you say, punish them, if they break the rules in holding leaders back! What rules exactly? The blue flag rules? What "holding" of a leading driver would that be? Is that what you think that Derek meant with "harder racing", or what would it be anyway (that to be different than any other "holding" such as a lead driver defending his position, for example)?

Sorry to have kept you waiting, Prema. The surprise was in seeing him agree that the blue flag rules should go back to what they meant in the eighties, yet accepting to be a driver-steward, having to judge driver behaviour according to today's rules. Perhaps I shouldn't have been surprised, since Derek has clearly driven in an era when racing etiquette wasn't a dirty term yet. I do admit I would have to discuss with him why he would want to do away with all the penalties, but perhaps that's also where proper racing etiquette ties in. But, as I have pointed out on earlier occasions, there is no document laying down what racing etiquette is supposed to mean. Hence the "need" for "clarification" whenever some driver acts as if eveybody else should jump in a ditch when he appears.

But the main point is that Derek Warwick agrees that a lapped driver isn't out of the race. Leading a race means nothing, as long as you haven't crossed the finishing line. There may still be pay-outs for positions at 1/4, 1/2 and 3/4 race distance, but that is another matter entirely.

_________________
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi


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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 10:21 am 
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Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:40 pm
Posts: 5979
Fiki wrote:
Prema wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Indeed it wasn't Ross Brawn, but Derek Warwick. I was a bit surprised he shared my views about fair racing, seeing he is a current driver-steward, with full knowledge of current rules. Those rules are unfair towards lapped drivers in my view, and Derek Warwick illustrates how they came and come about.

I understand the point that underlies the modern rules, as does Warwick. But unlike myself, he has first-hand experience of being a front-runner and a lapped driver in the good old days when the leaders had to race everybody. I find his rationale to be much fairer to everybody.

If a driver about to be lapped breaks the rules in holding up a leading driver, he should be punished. Just as I felt at the time that drivers like Senna, who offered a backmarker the chance of getting out of his way or have an accident, should have been punished.

I fail to see the logic in blue flagging a driver out of the way of the leaders, when those leaders already had the advantage of starting further up the grid. They are given that position on the basis of having shown their superior speed. They should use that speed to sportingly pass a backmarker.

Finally, even those not in the points are classified, and their classification at the end of the season is of paramount importance for their budgets. I think that's the only allowance I would make to the economics behind some of the arguments. The olympic ideal is old-fashioned, I know. But to me, every driver in the race, is in the race.


I am afraid I don't get it. You just said that you were surprised to see Derek sharing your views in this issue. This is what he said, you quoted him:

"Take away blue flags, take away all these penalties".
"Let's get back to harder racing and let people work out how to overtake when coming to lap a slow car."

Now, compare that with your statement there up, underlined. Just the opposite! He said, take away all these penalties, get back to harder racing... and you say, punish them, if they break the rules in holding leaders back! What rules exactly? The blue flag rules? What "holding" of a leading driver would that be? Is that what you think that Derek meant with "harder racing", or what would it be anyway (that to be different than any other "holding" such as a lead driver defending his position, for example)?

Sorry to have kept you waiting, Prema. The surprise was in seeing him agree that the blue flag rules should go back to what they meant in the eighties, yet accepting to be a driver-steward, having to judge driver behaviour according to today's rules. Perhaps I shouldn't have been surprised, since Derek has clearly driven in an era when racing etiquette wasn't a dirty term yet. I do admit I would have to discuss with him why he would want to do away with all the penalties, but perhaps that's also where proper racing etiquette ties in. But, as I have pointed out on earlier occasions, there is no document laying down what racing etiquette is supposed to mean. Hence the "need" for "clarification" whenever some driver acts as if eveybody else should jump in a ditch when he appears.

But the main point is that Derek Warwick agrees that a lapped driver isn't out of the race. Leading a race means nothing, as long as you haven't crossed the finishing line. There may still be pay-outs for positions at 1/4, 1/2 and 3/4 race distance, but that is another matter entirely.


Well, personally I wouldn't be placing much weight in one Derek advocating his personal view on the issue. If anything, you being "pleasantly surprised" about it speaks for itself.

I do not think that the blue flags rule meant that the lapped driver was out of the race, out of his race. But simply out of the racing for the position against the lead driver. And this one is the fact that seems to be ignored all the time, but it is the most important moment for the existence of this rule. Both you and Derek are coming from that point of view that the lead driver ought to fight for and "win" his position against the lapped driver that is up to 1.5 min behind him as the matter of fact. That is and absurd. Such may be having its justification only for the entertainment purposes, if wanted to argue that line. But not within the context of the actual racing itself for the positions on the track (something that "racing" each other is supposed to mean).


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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 2:17 pm 
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Posts: 6353
Location: Belgium
Prema wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Prema wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Indeed it wasn't Ross Brawn, but Derek Warwick. I was a bit surprised he shared my views about fair racing, seeing he is a current driver-steward, with full knowledge of current rules. Those rules are unfair towards lapped drivers in my view, and Derek Warwick illustrates how they came and come about.

I understand the point that underlies the modern rules, as does Warwick. But unlike myself, he has first-hand experience of being a front-runner and a lapped driver in the good old days when the leaders had to race everybody. I find his rationale to be much fairer to everybody.

If a driver about to be lapped breaks the rules in holding up a leading driver, he should be punished. Just as I felt at the time that drivers like Senna, who offered a backmarker the chance of getting out of his way or have an accident, should have been punished.

I fail to see the logic in blue flagging a driver out of the way of the leaders, when those leaders already had the advantage of starting further up the grid. They are given that position on the basis of having shown their superior speed. They should use that speed to sportingly pass a backmarker.

Finally, even those not in the points are classified, and their classification at the end of the season is of paramount importance for their budgets. I think that's the only allowance I would make to the economics behind some of the arguments. The olympic ideal is old-fashioned, I know. But to me, every driver in the race, is in the race.


I am afraid I don't get it. You just said that you were surprised to see Derek sharing your views in this issue. This is what he said, you quoted him:

"Take away blue flags, take away all these penalties".
"Let's get back to harder racing and let people work out how to overtake when coming to lap a slow car."

Now, compare that with your statement there up, underlined. Just the opposite! He said, take away all these penalties, get back to harder racing... and you say, punish them, if they break the rules in holding leaders back! What rules exactly? The blue flag rules? What "holding" of a leading driver would that be? Is that what you think that Derek meant with "harder racing", or what would it be anyway (that to be different than any other "holding" such as a lead driver defending his position, for example)?

Sorry to have kept you waiting, Prema. The surprise was in seeing him agree that the blue flag rules should go back to what they meant in the eighties, yet accepting to be a driver-steward, having to judge driver behaviour according to today's rules. Perhaps I shouldn't have been surprised, since Derek has clearly driven in an era when racing etiquette wasn't a dirty term yet. I do admit I would have to discuss with him why he would want to do away with all the penalties, but perhaps that's also where proper racing etiquette ties in. But, as I have pointed out on earlier occasions, there is no document laying down what racing etiquette is supposed to mean. Hence the "need" for "clarification" whenever some driver acts as if eveybody else should jump in a ditch when he appears.

But the main point is that Derek Warwick agrees that a lapped driver isn't out of the race. Leading a race means nothing, as long as you haven't crossed the finishing line. There may still be pay-outs for positions at 1/4, 1/2 and 3/4 race distance, but that is another matter entirely.


Well, personally I wouldn't be placing much weight in one Derek advocating his personal view on the issue. If anything, you being "pleasantly surprised" about it speaks for itself.

I do not think that the blue flags rule meant that the lapped driver was out of the race, out of his race. But simply out of the racing for the position against the lead driver. And this one is the fact that seems to be ignored all the time, but it is the most important moment for the existence of this rule. Both you and Derek are coming from that point of view that the lead driver ought to fight for and "win" his position against the lapped driver that is up to 1.5 min behind him as the matter of fact. That is and absurd. Such may be having its justification only for the entertainment purposes, if wanted to argue that line. But not within the context of the actual racing itself for the positions on the track (something that "racing" each other is supposed to mean).
That it is absurd is something we will have to agree to disagree on. I can only point out that the race is only run when the cars cross the finish line. Everything in between should be run according the rules, without special privilege for any driver.

_________________
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi


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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 2:35 pm 
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Get rid of Blue Flags altogether to improve racing.

Make the leaders work their way around back markers and see who the real pilots are.


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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 5:25 pm 
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Well, this race, Ricciardo who was 3rd was extremely close to getting lapped! If Verstappen had been in the race too and they had been fighting with each other the whole time, there is little doubt that they will have been lapped towards the end. But as they are fighting for the podium, should they still have to affect their own races to let the leaders through? Just after we were discussing that it wasn't common for drivers in the points to be lapped, the driver in 3rd nearly did. I still think there may come a time where blue flags will completely ruin somebody's championship results in the final race of a season if they are as strict as they sometimes have been.


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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 6:03 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
That it is absurd is something we will have to agree to disagree on. I can only point out that the race is only run when the cars cross the finish line. Everything in between should be run according the rules, without special privilege for any driver.


But what that "according the rules" is supposed to be in the case of a lead driver lapping the back car? You are saying it as if that is to be something self-evident, while that is the entire question that to be answered here. Is it according to the rules of racing where 2 drivers race each other for the position in the race? It can't be, since they do not fight for it.

Why a lead driver would be considered here as a "privileged" one if he does not have to fight for that position of his in the race that he already has and that will remain just the same position after he "fought" it "back" again?


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 Post subject: Re: Blue flag rules
PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 8:33 am 
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Prema wrote:
Fiki wrote:
That it is absurd is something we will have to agree to disagree on. I can only point out that the race is only run when the cars cross the finish line. Everything in between should be run according the rules, without special privilege for any driver.


But what that "according the rules" is supposed to be in the case of a lead driver lapping the back car? You are saying it as if that is to be something self-evident, while that is the entire question that to be answered here. Is it according to the rules of racing where 2 drivers race each other for the position in the race? It can't be, since they do not fight for it.

Why a lead driver would be considered here as a "privileged" one if he does not have to fight for that position of his in the race that he already has and that will remain just the same position after he "fought" it "back" again?
The lead driver passes a car according to the rules that govern passing; like leaving room to a car alongside to complete the corner. What is so mysterious about that?

The current blue flag rules are different to what they were in the 1980s. Warwick is correct in stating that the rules were/are changed for the leaders. I saw no reason to hand the leaders an additional advantage, and still don't see one now. If a quicker car can't pass a slower car that behaves according the rules, then what is it doing in the lead?

Twice over the last two races, we've seen Vettel falter when lapping Massa. Not Massa's fault, just a chink in Vettel's armour. So be it. I don't want him to go as far as Senna did to deal with backmarkers, but he can work on it, surely?

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